From bill at wiliweld.com Sat Jul 1 23:49:13 2000 From: bill at wiliweld.com (Bill Schoolcraft) Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 23:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Printing to Unix printer In-Reply-To: <0150CA5A623FD211B16400105A0463265DB204@cecupdc.sacefcu.org> Message-ID: At Fri, 30 Jun 2000 it looks like Tom DeSot composed: TD-->I've tried several printcap files and it never prints anything out. When I TD-->look at my print debug files it tells me it can't resolve the host. Funny TD-->thing though, I used another print test utility and it spit out what I had TD-->just tried to print from lpr. TD--> TD-->Am I missing something in my printcap file to force the page feed? Has TD-->anyone had this experience and found that it just won't work? TD--> TD-->I'd really appreciate any help that could be given. Can we see the printcap files with some comments on what happened with each ? Are you pointing to the printer by name or IP address ? Same network ? Can you "ping" the printer by name ? or by number ? Bill Schoolcraft http://www.wiliweld.com PO Box 210076 San Francisco, CA 94121 " saevis tranquillus in undis " From tomd at sacefcu.org Mon Jul 3 08:31:41 2000 From: tomd at sacefcu.org (Tom DeSot) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:31:41 -0500 Subject: [buug] Printing to Unix printer Message-ID: <0150CA5A623FD211B16400105A0463265DB230@cecupdc.sacefcu.org> OK, I've got it to where it will at least print now. However, I'm getting major stair stepping and when I try to use the filter, I just get page after page of nothing. Here is my printcap file and my filter. I'm hoping I'm just missing a line in the printcap. Cheers, Tom -----Original Message----- From: Bill Schoolcraft To: Tom DeSot Cc: 'buug at weak.org ' Sent: 7/2/00 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [buug] Printing to Unix printer At Fri, 30 Jun 2000 it looks like Tom DeSot composed: TD-->I've tried several printcap files and it never prints anything out. When I TD-->look at my print debug files it tells me it can't resolve the host. Funny TD-->thing though, I used another print test utility and it spit out what I had TD-->just tried to print from lpr. TD--> TD-->Am I missing something in my printcap file to force the page feed? Has TD-->anyone had this experience and found that it just won't work? TD--> TD-->I'd really appreciate any help that could be given. Can we see the printcap files with some comments on what happened with each ? Are you pointing to the printer by name or IP address ? Same network ? Can you "ping" the printer by name ? or by number ? Bill Schoolcraft http://www.wiliweld.com PO Box 210076 San Francisco, CA 94121 " saevis tranquillus in undis " -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: princap1.txt Type: application/octet-stream Size: 370 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hpif.txt Type: application/octet-stream Size: 331 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tomd at sacefcu.org Mon Jul 3 08:45:34 2000 From: tomd at sacefcu.org (Tom DeSot) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:45:34 -0500 Subject: [buug] Printing to Unix printer Message-ID: <0150CA5A623FD211B16400105A0463265DB236@cecupdc.sacefcu.org> Sorry, should have added that the printer is an HP 4+ Laserjet -----Original Message----- From: Tom DeSot To: 'Bill Schoolcraft '; Tom DeSot Cc: ''buug at weak.org ' ' Sent: 7/3/00 10:31 AM Subject: RE: [buug] Printing to Unix printer OK, I've got it to where it will at least print now. However, I'm getting major stair stepping and when I try to use the filter, I just get page after page of nothing. Here is my printcap file and my filter. I'm hoping I'm just missing a line in the printcap. Cheers, Tom -----Original Message----- From: Bill Schoolcraft To: Tom DeSot Cc: 'buug at weak.org ' Sent: 7/2/00 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [buug] Printing to Unix printer At Fri, 30 Jun 2000 it looks like Tom DeSot composed: TD-->I've tried several printcap files and it never prints anything out. When I TD-->look at my print debug files it tells me it can't resolve the host. Funny TD-->thing though, I used another print test utility and it spit out what I had TD-->just tried to print from lpr. TD--> TD-->Am I missing something in my printcap file to force the page feed? Has TD-->anyone had this experience and found that it just won't work? TD--> TD-->I'd really appreciate any help that could be given. Can we see the printcap files with some comments on what happened with each ? Are you pointing to the printer by name or IP address ? Same network ? Can you "ping" the printer by name ? or by number ? Bill Schoolcraft http://www.wiliweld.com PO Box 210076 San Francisco, CA 94121 " saevis tranquillus in undis " <> <> From ezekielk at yahoo.com Sat Jul 1 14:12:38 2000 From: ezekielk at yahoo.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Testing my latest address Message-ID: <20000701211238.29549.qmail@web1105.mail.yahoo.com> I recently registered a new e-mail address with our mailing list, which is: . That was three days ago, yet I have not received any confirmation. Perhaps my address has been processed anyway, so I am checking this out by posting this message. Also, I want to see if this message has wrapped at a margin of 80 or less. If not, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any free web-mail service that *does provide an outgoing word-wrap option. TIA. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From tomd at sacefcu.org Mon Jul 3 10:21:49 2000 From: tomd at sacefcu.org (Tom DeSot) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:21:49 -0500 Subject: [buug] Testing my latest address Message-ID: <0150CA5A623FD211B16400105A0463265DB23D@cecupdc.sacefcu.org> Got it Zeke. -----Original Message----- From: Ezekiel Krahlin To: BUUG-list 0 Sent: 7/1/00 4:12 PM Subject: [buug] Testing my latest address I recently registered a new e-mail address with our mailing list, which is: . That was three days ago, yet I have not received any confirmation. Perhaps my address has been processed anyway, so I am checking this out by posting this message. Also, I want to see if this message has wrapped at a margin of 80 or less. If not, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any free web-mail service that *does provide an outgoing word-wrap option. TIA. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ Buug mailing list Buug at weak.org http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug From tomd at sacefcu.org Mon Jul 3 10:42:37 2000 From: tomd at sacefcu.org (Tom DeSot) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:42:37 -0500 Subject: [buug] FW: Returned mail: Too many hops 21 (18 max): from via mta119.mail.yahoo.com, to Message-ID: <0150CA5A623FD211B16400105A0463265DB242@cecupdc.sacefcu.org> <> <> This could be the problem. -----Original Message----- From: Mail Delivery Subsystem To: tomd at sacefcu.org Sent: 7/3/00 12:22 PM Subject: Returned mail: Too many hops 21 (18 max): from via mta119.mail.yahoo.com, to The original message was received at Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:22:37 -0400 (EDT) from mta119.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.225] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 554 Too many hops 21 (18 max): from via mta119.mail.yahoo.com, to <> <> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ATT00473.TXT Type: application/octet-stream Size: 263 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Tom DeSot Subject: RE: [buug] Testing my latest address Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:21:49 -0500 Size: 1258 URL: From zkrahlin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 7 00:48:48 2000 From: zkrahlin at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Maybe I can participate, now! Message-ID: <20000707074848.21000.qmail@web5404.mail.yahoo.com> Okay, I registered with a new handle at yahoo.com...since my other yahoo service seems to be problematic. I think that's because it's an old mailbox that I haven't used for some time...and though it seems okay, has been partly disabled...thus, the bouncing back via my redirection service at iname.com, and to our mailing list. I have tested it, and no mail sent there is ever received (while the iname.com service has no problem receiving mail, if I stop it from forwarding). Maybe I'll get lucky, to find that yahoo does a decent word-wrap. Well, this is a test message, in order to find out. Thanks for everyone's patience. I have changed iname.com to forward to this new yahoo address, ...while keeping as my return address. (I have also subscribed my address at , as a back-up.) --- Zeke Krahlin Hacking for gay equality since April! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From zkrahlin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 7 01:35:25 2000 From: zkrahlin at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Jackpot! Message-ID: <20000707083525.17404.qmail@web5403.mail.yahoo.com> I hit the Linux-jackpot at Pegasus Books yesterday: "Running Linux, 3rd edition" and "The Unix CD Bookshelf"...both in mint condition, at $20 and $30 savings, respectively. Usually, such books are off the shelf almost as soon as they are placed there. Just lucky timing on my part. There were some other Linux/Unix books too, which may still be there. I cannot agree that "Running Linux" is good for beginners; it's just a bit too advanced IMO. However, I *do recommend it as one's Linux "bible", especially after a newbie goes through a much simpler book such as "Linux! I Didn't Know You Could Do That..." or "Teach Yourself KDE 1.1". Both books get the newbie acquainted with Linux in a very digestible manner, and they do include the basic console commands, as well as the GUI. Then, I'd say one is ready for "Running Linux". "The Unix CD Bookshelf" has 6 Unix books on CD, plus a bound copy of "Unix in a Nutshell, 3rd Edition". (This book is part of the CD library, as well.) The five other books are: "Unix Power Tools, 2nd Edition", "Learning the Unix Operating System, 4th Edition", "sed & awk, 2nd Edition", "Learning the vi Editor, 6th Edition", and "Learning the Korn Shell". Before stumbling upon this unexpected treasure, I had set out to search for a decent FreeBSD book for under $40. Well, I'll have to get around to that another time...meanwhile, I can just learn BSD by the manuals that come with the install, and from a BSD website. So I finally have a nice little Linux/Unix library which in combination provides an excellent resource for my interests. Between this fine collection, and all the great hackers I have recently befriended (both offline and online), I consider myself a very rich man! (And no doubt spoiled.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jul 7 02:01:50 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 02:01:50 -0700 Subject: [buug] Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000707083525.17404.qmail@web5403.mail.yahoo.com>; from zkrahlin@yahoo.com on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 01:35:25AM -0700 References: <20000707083525.17404.qmail@web5403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000707020150.A27369@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > I cannot agree that "Running Linux" is good for beginners; it's just a > bit too advanced IMO. You see, the problem with books that cover the basics in greater detail is that, of necessity, they either must be far too extensive, which prevents you from finding anything, or must be shallow and cover too little. I've seen many of the former; they have comforting _bulk_, but are useless. I've seen even more of the latter, they are comfortingly _written_, but are useless. Whereas, starting from nearly no (relevant) Unix knowledge, that book (first edition, a long ways back) and experimentation at the console told me, concisely, everything important I needed to know in my first year as a Linux sysadmin, when I needed to know it. (My opinion; yours for a small fee. ;-> ) > However, I *do recommend it as one's Linux "bible".... It _can't_ be a Linux "bible", because it's a _tutorial_. For that, you would need a good reference book, such as _Linux in a Nutshell_. > ... or "Teach Yourself KDE 1.1". I have yet to see a book about KDE that leaves you with any long-term useful knowledge of Linux (or any other Unix). These are "comfort books", ones that fool you into thinking they're teaching you something meaningful, when all they consist of is painfully slow cookbook recipes to teach you the surface mechanics of _one_ version of some collection of desktop utilities. And any marginal usefulness you might find will evaporate with the next minor revamping. That's not a book; that's a security blanket. The way you learn is by putting down the blanket and diving in. (On the other hand, hey, if you really think you'll benefit from a $20 security blanket, whatever works for you is good by that measure -- but I still say people are kidding themselves, if they think they have _learned_ from such things in any meaningful, long-term sense.) > Before stumbling upon this unexpected treasure, I had set out to > search for a decent FreeBSD book for under $40. Well, I'll have to get > around to that another time...meanwhile, I can just learn BSD by the > manuals that come with the install, and from a BSD website. The on-line FreeBSD tutorials are really well written. The Unix Bookshelf set is a fine catch, but you should consider tracking down _Linux in a Nutshell_ as an addition. Its elder cousin, _Unix in a Nutshell_, will do in a pinch, but also having the Linux-specific volume will save you some occasional head-scratching. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jul 7 11:02:24 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:02:24 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! Message-ID: <20000707110224.A32674@linuxmafia.com> > I disagree, Rick. Whatever works for you, then. _But:_ > As an alternative to "Running Linux", I heartily recommend "Using > Linux" by Bill Ball. You know, I think that that book really, really sucks, and that recommending it to _other_ people throws additional obstacles in their way. And I can tell you exactly why: It's a "kitchen sink" approach, that makes the classic error of trying to be both a tutorial and a reference at the same time. I therefore find it to comprise a horrid mush, from an entire line of horrid-mush books that are deliberately designed that way. > The book, "Teach Yourself KDE 1.1 in 24 Hours" I found a delight to > use, very digestible, and extremely informative/useful for a newbie > Linux user, without boggling him down with technical elaboration. See, the problem with every KDE book I've ever seen is that they tell you nothing of any lasting value, by which I mean zero _fundamental_ knowledge. They show you how things work as to surface knob-twiddling, but without -=any=- understanding of underlying unifying principles and key pieces. None. And without that knowledge of Unix fundamentals, you're screwed. You really cannot get by in Unix by just memorising the mechanics of menus -- for a large number of reasons that I hope I don't have to detail. You remain a visiting alien, as disoriented by a slightly different Linux system as a non-English-speaking foreigner whose directions have blown away in the breeze. > You didn't say, so I assume that my messages are now coming through > wrapped at a margin of 80 or less. Around 55. Which is fine, albeit a little eccentric. I usually re-wrap anything I quote to a more standard 70 characters or so. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From zkrahlin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 7 12:01:06 2000 From: zkrahlin at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! Message-ID: <20000707190106.19175.qmail@web5403.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > You know, I think that that book really, really sucks, and that > recommending it to _other_ people throws additional obstacles in their > way. Now that our differing opinions are on record, others may decide what's best for them...for in future, our group will include more genuine newbies than presently exist. Keep in mind that I am thinking in terms of a non-techie switching from Windoze to Linux...not of anyone desiring to hack or become a system administrator. So I think "What book would I hand such a newbie?" Now, I have four clients who are very happy with their new Linux work stations...who only need to become proficient with the GUI, and not with administration or even trouble shooting. They are much more amenable to perusing "Teach Yourself KDE 1.1", than "Running Linux". And it works; they can run Linux as GUI quite well: in fact, better than they ever did Windoze. If, however, I thought in terms of a student, hacker, or administrator-trainee, I would abide completely by your own excellent recommendations. > > You didn't say, so I assume that my messages are now coming through > > wrapped at a margin of 80 or less. > > Around 55. Which is fine, albeit a little eccentric. I usually >re-wrap anything I quote to a more standard 70 characters or so. Okay, thanks for pointing this out, Rick. Yahoo has a setting for "compose", which apparantly is the same as "outgoing mail"...so I increased it from 55 to 72. I'm just happy I found a web-mail service with this option...even if it is on yahoo.com (a service I'd prefer to avoid, if it weren't for this word-wrap issue). ===== Zeke Krahlin Hacking for gay equality since April! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From nick at netaxs.com Fri Jul 7 12:13:10 2000 From: nick at netaxs.com (Nicolai Rosen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000707190106.19175.qmail@web5403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Zeke Krahlin wrote: > --- Rick Moen wrote: > > You know, I think that that book really, really sucks, and that > > recommending it to _other_ people throws additional obstacles in > their > > way. > > Now that our differing opinions are on record, others may decide what's > best for them...for in future, our group will include more genuine > newbies than presently exist. Keep in mind that I am thinking in terms > of a non-techie switching from Windoze to Linux...not of anyone > desiring to hack or become a system administrator. So I think "What > book would I hand such a newbie?" Now, I have four clients who are very > happy with their new Linux work stations...who only need to become > proficient with the GUI, and not with administration or even trouble > shooting. They are much more amenable to perusing "Teach Yourself KDE > 1.1", than "Running Linux". And it works; they can run Linux as GUI > quite well: in fact, better than they ever did Windoze. I recently saw an interesting approach. It was a kind of learning Linux as your first OS sort of book. I believe it was called Learning Linux Visually. Basically it covered RedHat GUI tools. I saw a page or two on cleaning your mouse though so it had to be pretty basic. I'm not sure it was any good as idg gave it to us for free. Nicolai Rosen, nick at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~nick/ Earth is a single point of failure. -Quote from Patrick Greenwell's signature From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jul 7 12:56:43 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:56:43 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000707190106.19175.qmail@web5403.mail.yahoo.com>; from zkrahlin@yahoo.com on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:01:06PM -0700 References: <20000707190106.19175.qmail@web5403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000707125643.G27369@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > Keep in mind that I am thinking in terms of a non-techie switching > from Windoze to Linux...not of anyone desiring to hack or become a > system administrator. But, if you have root access on a Linux box, if only your laptop running Linux-Mandrake, then you _are_ by definition a system administrator! And, if you have spent your learning time studying (e.g.) shiny buttons and menus of _one_ generation of KDE GUI tools, that is time and energy lost that you could have spent gaining meaningful information about _Linux_ (or any other Unix). > Now, I have four clients who are very happy with their new Linux work > stations... But, if anything changes on them (e.g., something as simple as a new version of KDE), or they accidentally switch to a different window manager, or try to use some other slightly different Linux box, they will probably be completely at sea. Because they haven't really learned much about Linux. That's fine, if your aim does not include learning Linux. Unfortunately, I suspect that many such people are under the misapprehension that they _have_ learned Linux. When they suddenly find themselves somewhere unfamiliar and are confounded, they will tend to blame themselves: Hey, I had a good book; what's wrong with me? No, there's nothing wrong with them: They didn't spend their time on a good book. If this were just a matter of you having a different opinion, that would be fine. We all have 'em. But you're recommending to others as "good books on Linux" things that I am quite sure are actively _bad_ books on Linux, and I'm able to articulate exactly why. My point is that you're not doing these people a favour. That is of (indirect) concern to me as a Linux community member. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From zkrahlin at yahoo.com Fri Jul 7 12:59:56 2000 From: zkrahlin at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! Message-ID: <20000707195956.23359.qmail@web5401.mail.yahoo.com> --- Nicolai Rosen wrote: > I recently saw an interesting approach. It was a kind of learning > Linux as your first OS sort of book. I believe it was called Learning > Linux Visually. Basically it covered RedHat GUI tools. I saw a page or > two on cleaning your mouse though so it had to be pretty basic. I'm > not sure it was any good as idg gave it to us for free. Hi, Nicolai. I'd have to actually see the book to pass any judgment; but it does sound disappointingly simplistic, by your brief description. However, the total incorporation of PC-use for a first-timer, with Linux as the first OS...is indeed an interesting, and excellent, approach. It fills a vital niche, that--if done correctly--can ease many users over to Linux, and therefore bypass the M$ monopoly which many consumers find offensive (usually for good reason). Until the evolution of Linux GUI's to where they are now, the average PC user had no choice for an alternate OS. Improvements on these GUI's are drastically needed, but the "dummy threshhold" has been passed, and Linux distros are moving ahead at a fast pace. These are exciting times for jaded nerds! In Cody's Books (Berkeley), there is a totally graphical newbie Linux book, nicely designed in spiral binding...title eludes me. It is too simplistic for anyone already acquainted with the concept of GUI's on any OS...but for someone new to Linux--who hasn't really *learned Windoze or OS/2, whatever--it does a great job on acquainting one to Linux. And besides...the pictures are sooooo pretty! ;) I think such "comfort" books--at least, those with substance along with comfort--are a necessary bridge to wean people off Windoze, and onto Linux. And I *abhor most computer books, because they do not easily remain open while I'm trying to learn on my computer. *Every computer book should be spiral-bound, IMO. So I won't condemn "comfort" linux books across the board...but select among them, what few better-quality ones exist. I am an advocate for boycotting *all Micro$oft products, especially Windoze. So my focus is on assisting the absolute Linux-newbie, to make the changeover as digestible and fun as possible. Mind you, these are people who--though using Windoze for two or more years--have never really bothered to learn much about Windoze, either. (They usually don't even know what "click and drag" means, and are surprised to find out you can open more than one window at a time.) They don't *care about the inner workings of any PC, no matter what OS is being used. They just want to get the job done, and/or play games and browse the web. They are either running their own small business with the PC as somewhat useful...or run their computer for pure pleasure. Some are disabled, on very low income, and are politially astute enough to desire to boycott Micro$oft...but in need of some help in going over to Linux. ===== Zeke Krahlin Hacking for gay equality since April! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From feedle at feedle.net Fri Jul 7 18:03:29 2000 From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 01:03:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [buug] ... Message-ID: There will be no "newsletter" this week. There is nothing to put into it. -Fedl From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jul 7 19:51:10 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 19:51:10 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000707195956.23359.qmail@web5401.mail.yahoo.com>; from zkrahlin@yahoo.com on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:59:56PM -0700 References: <20000707195956.23359.qmail@web5401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000707195110.D1670@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > They don't *care about the inner workings of any PC, no matter what OS > is being used. They just want to get the job done, and/or play games > and browse the web. They are either running their own small business > with the PC as somewhat useful...or run their computer for pure > pleasure. Some are disabled, on very low income, and are politially > astute enough to desire to boycott Micro$oft...but in need of some > help in going over to Linux. You have a point. You make a decent case that there's a niche to fill, here. I have no doubt that some books do it passably well, but that I just don't appreciate them on such terms. The fly in the ointment is that you're still using x86 hardware and doing it using a general-purpose operating system. Both mean that efforts to hide complexity are somewhat doomed. Worse, the lower the price point, the worse the hardware complexity becomes. Anyone trying to do simple, office/personal-productivity task-oriented computing on x86 can only go so far in ignoring the machine's details -- because the hardware design is too unstandardised and sometimes downright defective. So, I tell people, low-cost x86 computing _or_ avoiding the need to become knowledgeable about hardware: Pick one. You cannot have them both, not for long, or with any satisfaction. The smart move is to go for learning about hardware. If people say they want both (ignorance and low cost), I wish them good luck, but personall can't help them. (I don't have the patience, and don't want to deal with their attitude. I'd tell them to buy PowerMacs, except when they started whining about the price, I'd probably lose my cool, so it's better to just say bon voyage.) That brings us to the second point, about Linux being a general-purpose computing environment: Have you ever heard annoying, whiney people ask (rhetorically) why computers should have to be so complex, when automobiles are simple by comparison? The implication is that we should somehow feel ashamed to have thus failed the questioner in his reasonable requirement that everything he wants to use be made simple for him. That (supposedly) rhetorical question has a straight-forward and obvious answer -- which, of course, never occurs to such people: Automobiles are machines designed for a very limited range of tasks, while computers are machines designed for an incredibly broad range of tasks. Computers cannot be made simple and still have them be computers. Those of us who _like_ computers, specifically because of their incredible adaptability, have learned to live with complexity and not whine about it, because we know it's a necessary precondition for _functionality_. The questioner's error is in assuming that he needs a computer, just because he likes to browse the Web, process e-mail, play games, and write, store, & file things. He assumes this requires a computer because that's all he knows about. On the horizon will be new "computing appliances", at much lower price points (maybe $200 or so) that have deliberately simplified functionality and are difficult or essentially impossible to mess up. Many of these will be based on embedded Linux. Those are probably what your customers need, not general-purpose computers at all. Already, there are computing appliances for gamers: Sony Playstation 2, Sega Dreamcast, Super Nintendo, etc. These are real computers, and often very powerful ones, set up with dedicated, embedded software for gaming. Frankly, if I played games, I'd want to do it on one of those, not a PC. The PC/MS-Windows game market is an artifact of market distortion. A more rational market, not dominated by monopolies, would make those rare, as people gravitated to better alternatives. Anyhow, I have copies of Ball's _Using Linux_, first edition, and Welsh et al.'s _Running Linux_, 3rd edition, sitting on my desk. I was _planning_ to write a comparision of the two for the list's benefit, but unfortunately have to head home and no longer have time. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From zkrahlin at yahoo.com Sat Jul 8 00:18:22 2000 From: zkrahlin at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] ... Message-ID: <20000708071822.26480.qmail@web5404.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Sullivan wrote: > There will be no "newsletter" this week. Aaaaarrrrggghhh! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From nick at netaxs.com Sat Jul 8 00:51:08 2000 From: nick at netaxs.com (Nicolai Rosen) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 03:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000707195110.D1670@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Rick Moen wrote: > Have you ever heard annoying, whiney people ask (rhetorically) why > computers should have to be so complex, when automobiles are simple > by comparison? The implication is that we should somehow feel ashamed > to have thus failed the questioner in his reasonable requirement that > everything he wants to use be made simple for him. > > That (supposedly) rhetorical question has a straight-forward and obvious > answer -- which, of course, never occurs to such people: Automobiles > are machines designed for a very limited range of tasks, while > computers are machines designed for an incredibly broad range of tasks. > Computers cannot be made simple and still have them be computers. Those > of us who _like_ computers, specifically because of their incredible > adaptability, have learned to live with complexity and not whine about > it, because we know it's a necessary precondition for _functionality_. Actually, I'd say that there's an even more straight-forward and obvious answer or perhaps question: What are you on & can I have some of whatever it is? When's the last time you repaired your own car or did something to it yourself any more complex than putting gas in the tank? People only consider cars simple because when they break or need to be upgraded they pay somebody else to do it. The same goes for computers. (For the record I repair my own car and operate my own computer) Nicolai Rosen, nick at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~nick/ You can recognize truth by its beauty and simplicity. When you get it right, it is obvious that it is right -- at least if you have any experience -- because what usually happens is that more comes out than goes in ... The inexperienced, the crackpots, and people like that, make guesses that are simple, but you can immediately see that they are wrong, so that does not count. Others, the inexperienced students, make guesses that are very complicated, and it sort of looks as if it is all right, but I know it is not true because the truth always turns out to be simpler than you thought. -Physicist Richard Feynman From rick at linuxmafia.com Sat Jul 8 01:10:12 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 01:10:12 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: ; from nick@netaxs.com on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:51:08AM -0400 References: <20000707195110.D1670@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20000708011012.A8091@linuxmafia.com> begin Nicolai Rosen quotation: > Actually, I'd say that there's an even more straight-forward and obvious > answer or perhaps question: What are you on & can I have some of whatever > it is? When's the last time you repaired your own car or did something to > it yourself any more complex than putting gas in the tank? People only > consider cars simple because when they break or need to be upgraded they > pay somebody else to do it. The same goes for computers. (For the record > I repair my own car and operate my own computer) Umm, Nicolai -- the hypothetical questioner's point is that he _wants_ computers to become exactly like that. They can't, as long as they remain _computers_ -- general-purpose computing devices. Thus my point, that computers are _not_ in fact what such users want. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From nick at netaxs.com Sat Jul 8 02:37:08 2000 From: nick at netaxs.com (Nicolai Rosen) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 05:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000708011012.A8091@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Rick Moen wrote: > begin Nicolai Rosen quotation: > > > Actually, I'd say that there's an even more straight-forward and obvious > > answer or perhaps question: What are you on & can I have some of whatever > > it is? When's the last time you repaired your own car or did something to > > it yourself any more complex than putting gas in the tank? People only > > consider cars simple because when they break or need to be upgraded they > > pay somebody else to do it. The same goes for computers. (For the record > > I repair my own car and operate my own computer) > > Umm, Nicolai -- the hypothetical questioner's point is that he _wants_ > computers to become exactly like that. > > They can't, as long as they remain _computers_ -- general-purpose > computing devices. Thus my point, that computers are _not_ in fact > what such users want. They can though. That's my point. If you payed me what you pay the guy who fixes your car I'll make it hum too. Nicolai Rosen, nick at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~nick/ "Nah, mathemeticians stay away from actual, specific numbers as much as possible. We like to talk about numbers without actually exposing ourselves to them--that's what computers are for." -Randy Waterhouse, _Cryptonomicon_, by Neil Stephenson From zkrahlin at yahoo.com Sat Jul 8 15:07:23 2000 From: zkrahlin at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! Message-ID: <20000708220723.20198.qmail@web5405.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > But, if you have root access on a Linux box, if only your laptop > running Linux-Mandrake, then you _are_ by definition a system > administrator! Each client that now uses Linux is a "user", not administrator. I am the administrator for each of their stand-alone boxes. I do not give any of my clients root access...they don't even know the password for root. Considering all the nuisances that Windoze is, my clients have no more problems or questions in Linux, than they ever had in Windoze. In fact, they seem to be considerably less. > And, if you have spent your learning time studying (e.g.) shiny > buttons and menus of _one_ generation of KDE GUI tools, that is time > and energy lost that you could have spent gaining meaningful > information about _Linux_ (or any other Unix). My learning (as administrator for my clients, as well as my own personal interests and education) exceeds well beyond learning KDE. While my clients just need to learn to be comfortable in the KDE desktop. IOW, I have given them the tools to use Linux for Internet connections, and for most of their workstation needs. Since they've never really learned Windoze very well, the change to Linux is transparent to them. They need a word processor? Spreadsheet? Database? PIM? Of course, Linux has it all...include the WordPerfect Suite. > But, if anything changes on them (e.g., something as simple as a new > version of KDE), or they accidentally switch to a different window > manager, or try to use some other slightly different Linux box, they > will probably be completely at sea. Because they haven't really > learned much about Linux. I believe you exaggerate. Even with that consideration, Windoze has proven to be no less problematic for non-techie users...just in different ways. And glitches in Linux seem to be a lot less difficult to resolve, than those in Windoze. Upgrading KDE--and Linux in general--is something they will learn in due time. As I learn more, I can then give them the simplest methods to maintain their system. In the meantime, and non-trivial upgrade can easily be performed by yours truly...I can even guide them over the phone, or perhaps in an e-mail instruction. I have also given them the tools they'll need, should they ever want to learn Linux on their own. They are *not condemned to be dependent on me, but can go as far as they want with Linux. That is because I believe in empowering people on their PC's, rather than hiding vital information from them. Overall, maintaining my client's systems with Linux is proving to be much easier for me, than maintaining these same systems on Windoze. And I have only just begun delving into Linux! > That's fine, if your aim does not include learning Linux. My aim *is...but not necessarily that of my clients. But since the majority of PC users have no choice but to learn some use of computers, it would be absurd for me to discourage them from using these machines, considering there are no real alternatives, at this time. Dedicated appliances are still in the future...likewise for remote services via a dumb terminal. > If this were just a matter of you having a different opinion, that > would be fine. We all have 'em. But you're recommending to others as > "good books on Linux" things that I am quite sure are actively _bad_ > books on Linux, and I'm able to articulate exactly why. You would keep Linux only for the techie elite, and not assist regular users in running a Linux box. You cannot expect every PC user to study the architecture of their systems. Windoze is no less complex, yet they managed to create a GUI that can accommodate your average user...albeit rather clumsily. The idea of a PC ("personal" computer), is that anyone should be able to run it to perform necessary work...without having to gain a master's degree in computer science. It is no crime that Linux is now competing with Windoze, to do just that...and I applaud them. M$ being a monopoly for so long, has strangled the competition, and thus slowed down the evolution of user-friendly PC's by at least a decade. What books I recommend to my clients, are based on what have worked for me first...after perusing with a fine tooth comb, all the books available on the market. I can assure you there is no way "Running Linux" will allow the average PC user to operate his or her workstation any time soon. In fact, no client has yet really needed any book to do his work...but with some of my basic instructions, and setting up the system with the necessary programs...they are doing quite fine, thank you! > My point is that you're not doing these people a favour. Your implication is that I just forget them, and discourage them from using any OS but Windoze...unless, of course, they are willing to go all the way and become Linux-heads. If Windoze techies had that same attitude (and some do), we'd also be telling our clients to stick with DOS. I *am doing them a favor on a number of levels: alleviating their concerns about virus and security attacks over the 'Net; providing an OS that hardly ever crashes; very low cost use, maintenance, and upgrade; and an ethical alternative to a monstrous corporation...to name but several. As for what books I recommend: I have shown all my clients all the books I have...telling them that books like "Running Linux" are what they want, if or when they really want to take Linux by the horns (and just ignore all that tiresome 19-century lithography; who started that in the first place? It might have been clever the first few times around, but after a decade...well, it's like, it's like, well "beating a dead horse", or tarsier, or owl or mouse, whatever). But the KDE book has proven the most successful in assisting such newbies. So I have not withheld from them, the various resources out there...should they ever want to be more than users of a workstation. But as it now stands; they don't. They are your typical PC users, whom we more knowledgable users should be helping to make their use of computers as amenable as possible. (This, of course, will no longer be a needed goal, once PC appliances become popular. But until then, the "personal computer" should always be regarded as "personal", and thus as user friendly as *we can possibly make it.) >That is of (indirect) concern to me as a Linux community member. I consider myself part of this Linux community...the branch that is struggling to ease users over from Windoze to Linux. Your recommendations I nonetheless respect, and have followed through on (as I did finally purchase "Running Linux", and I have applied your recommendations on running a successful user group and website). I see your instructions as "If you really want to master Linux, here's the way to go." But there is no dimension in your ideas, that would help anyone switching from Windoze to Linux...at least, for the average user (not the student or techie). No do I expect you to, as I (and some others) gladly take up that aspect so as not to unduly burden and frustrate others in the community, who serve a better purpose in guiding true students. At risk of being written off as a Linux heretic, I remain, as always: --- Zeke Krahlin Hacking for PC empowerment since 1985. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Sat Jul 8 16:21:36 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:21:36 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000708220723.20198.qmail@web5405.mail.yahoo.com>; from zkrahlin@yahoo.com on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 03:07:23PM -0700 References: <20000708220723.20198.qmail@web5405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000708162136.C9118@linuxmafia.com> (By the way, please stop setting the Reply-To header. Thanks.) begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > --- Rick Moen wrote: >> But, if you have root access on a Linux box, if only your laptop >> running Linux-Mandrake, then you _are_ by definition a system >> administrator! > > Each client that now uses Linux is a "user", not administrator. I am > the administrator for each of their stand-alone boxes. I do not give > any of my clients root access...they don't even know the password for > root. That is an outstatnding model. I've been advocating this approach for years, for naive users on Linux boxes, but you're the first person I know who actually has done it. Congratulations! Yes, in _that_ model, the Linux user is not a sysadmin. (You'll please note that I properly qualified my statement, in that respect.) > Considering all the nuisances that Windoze is, my clients have no more > problems or questions in Linux, than they ever had in Windoze. In fact, > they seem to be considerably less. My objections to that model of computing _mostly_ evaporate when there is someone capable exercising the root privilege for them, as is the case here. As I said, this is the model I've been _trying_ to encourage for years (see my virus essays within http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/): It allows you to present to the users (and maintain) a tailored environment that meets their individual needs, and gives them exactly as much access to the underlying machine as those needs require, no more and no less. May I recommend some tools? First and foremost, SSH (meaning the OpenSSH implementation, these days), to give you secure remote administration abilities. It also automatically forwards X over the secure channel. Second, kibitz from Dan Libes at National Institute of Standards and Technology. (Libes's home page: http://www.mel.nist.gov/msidstaff/libes/) kibitz is implemented as an Expect script (Libes created Expect), an is included in every distribution of the Expect utility. Expect allows you to remotely "type over the shoulder" of someone you're trying to help. From a manpage Web-ified at http://howto.tucows.com/man/man1/kibitz.1.html: * A novice user can ask an expert user for help. Using kibitz, the expert can see what the user is doing, and offer advice or show how to do it right. * By running kibitz and then starting a full-screen editor, people may carry out a conversation, retaining the ability to scroll backwards, save the entire conversation, or even edit it while in progress. * People can team up on games, document editing, or other cooperative tasks where each person has strengths and weaknesses that complement one another. Third, script. It allows you to log to disk screen output of any (console) session. You can have your users run script to capture error messages and other useful output, then mail it to you for examination. This even helps with X applications if they have been started from a shell prompt (e.g., "kcalendar &"), in that stderr and other useful diagnostic information will be sent to that console. More later, since we're starting to get guests for the CABAL meeting. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From zkrahlin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 9 15:10:12 2000 From: zkrahlin at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! Message-ID: <20000709221012.21124.qmail@web5405.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > (By the way, please stop setting the Reply-To header. Thanks.) Not sure what you mean about this, Rick. Using Yahoo's webmail, I set it up to use a different "reply-to" address, than where I am mailing from. This is because I use a redirectional service at www.iname.com. All mail sent to me goes to , which then forwards it to . If necessary, I can switch the buug mailing list to directly mail to my yahoo address. > begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > > Each client that now uses Linux is a "user", not administrator. I > >am the administrator for each of their stand-alone boxes. I do not > >give any of my clients root access...they don't even know the > > password for root. > > That is an outstatnding model. I've been advocating this approach > for years, for naive users on Linux boxes, but you're the first > person I know who actually has done it. Congratulations! Well, since every Linux advocate points out to *never connect to the 'Net as root, and since I've been studying the Linux file-system...that is the very first thing I took care of. As you said some time ago, to stop thinking of Linux as "desktop", and think of "network" instead...I am easing into this, where I can now easily see each of my clients as part of a network, with my own system as hub. > As I said, this is the model I've been _trying_ to > encourage for years (see my virus essays within > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/): I already have. Reading your helpful material has been an important guide to my practical use of Linux. What a *horrid realization to discover so many newbies logging on as root. I can see why you are so concerned. I just neglected to mention that all my clients log on as a user...because I assumed this was too obvious to even mention ("goes without saying", IOW). But, also being a newbie myself, I can see why you approached my statements with great caution. Now that I know how sloppy beginners can be re. "root", I will make this aspect an important part of my sharing knowledge to all Linux/Unix newbies. > May I recommend some tools? You certainly may! I am sure that my studies would only go half as fast, without your guidance. > First and foremost, SSH (meaning the OpenSSH > implementation, these days), to give you secure remote administration > abilities. It also automatically forwards X over the secure channel. Got that! Once I have fully studied "Running Linux", I will take that next step to learning a simple, secure network with my clients. I did *not know about "kibitz/Expect", so thanks for introducing me to Libes's site. > More later, since we're starting to get guests for the CABAL meeting. Be assured that this is *one person who is listening, and saving your considerate advice in a permanent folder. Enjoy your barbecue; I sure enjoyed mine! :D ===== Zeke Krahlin Hacking for gay equality since April! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zkrahlin at yahoo.com Sun Jul 9 15:50:28 2000 From: zkrahlin at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Partition Sharing Message-ID: <20000709225028.24792.qmail@web5401.mail.yahoo.com> I would like to share a common partition for my data files. The partition is "vfat" (Windoze98), and all files are plain text (tons of notes and html files). I do not have any binaries on that partition. Using Linux (Mandrake 6.1), I want to be able to, as user (not root), open and edit and save these files onto a vfat partition. As root, I have tried "chown" on these vfat files, but got only failed results, like so: Operation not permitted. Now, that makes sense not to run a Linux command to alter files, on a vfat partition. But I'm hoping there is a work-around...other than just staying in "root" mode. My present method leaves much to be desired, which is: having all files from vfat copied to ext2...and whenever I edit a file on ext2, I copy it over to vfat. And when I change any file in Windoze, I must remember--once I'm back in Linux--as root, to copy such files from vfat to ext2. This, of course, makes it all too easy to forget to copy any changed files. Much better to share these files in both OS's...until said time I can completely dump Windoze (which is not possible for at least a few more months). TIA. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From nick at netaxs.com Sun Jul 9 16:08:01 2000 From: nick at netaxs.com (Nicolai Rosen) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] Partition Sharing In-Reply-To: <20000709225028.24792.qmail@web5401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So put them on an ext2 partition. Use Disk Image Viewer, http://www.softwarium.com/divwin.html. Problem solved. On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Zeke Krahlin wrote: > I would like to share a common partition for my data files. The > partition is "vfat" (Windoze98), and all files are plain text (tons of > notes and html files). I do not have any binaries on that partition. > > Using Linux (Mandrake 6.1), I want to be able to, as user (not root), > open and edit and save these files onto a vfat partition. As root, I > have tried "chown" on these vfat files, but got only failed results, > like so: > > Operation not permitted. > > Now, that makes sense not to run a Linux command to alter files, on a > vfat partition. But I'm hoping there is a work-around...other than just > staying in "root" mode. > > My present method leaves much to be desired, which is: having all files > from vfat copied to ext2...and whenever I edit a file on ext2, I copy > it over to vfat. And when I change any file in Windoze, I must > remember--once I'm back in Linux--as root, to copy such files from vfat > to ext2. This, of course, makes it all too easy to forget to copy any > changed files. > > Much better to share these files in both OS's...until said time I can > completely dump Windoze (which is not possible for at least a few more > months). TIA. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > Nicolai Rosen, nick at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~nick/ i built myself a nice little cage with bars of anger and a lock of rage i can't help asking who's got the key when i know damned well it's me no i ain't hinting for sympathy i'm used to dealing with apathy the scars on my wrists may seem like a crime just wish me better luck next time so what if i died a thousand deaths you think i'm insane but i have no regrets one more time won't matter no question suicide is self expression -Type O Negative, Gravitational Constant From rick at linuxmafia.com Sun Jul 9 19:08:54 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:08:54 -0700 Subject: [buug] Partition Sharing In-Reply-To: <20000709225028.24792.qmail@web5401.mail.yahoo.com>; from zkrahlin@yahoo.com on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 03:50:28PM -0700 References: <20000709225028.24792.qmail@web5401.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000709190854.I9118@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > Using Linux (Mandrake 6.1), I want to be able to, as user (not root), > open and edit and save these files onto a vfat partition. As root, I > have tried "chown" on these vfat files, but got only failed results, > like so: > > Operation not permitted. > > Now, that makes sense not to run a Linux command to alter files, on a > vfat partition. But I'm hoping there is a work-around...other than just > staying in "root" mode. I believe there are "mount" options to set the owning user/group and rights mask of partitions like vfat that don't actually have that information in them. Like this, from the mount(8) manpage: Mount options for affs uid=value and gid=value Set the owner and group of the root of the file system (default: uid=gid=0, but with option uid or gid without specified value, the uid and gid of the current process are taken). setuid=value and setgid=value Set the owner and group of all files. mode=value Set the mode of all files to value & 0777 disre- garding the original permissions. Add search per- mission to directories that have read permission. The value is given in octal. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From zk_lists at yahoo.com Sun Jul 9 23:57:05 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Partition Sharing Message-ID: <20000710065705.5242.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com> --- Nicolai Rosen wrote: > So put them on an ext2 partition. Use Disk Image Viewer, > http://www.softwarium.com/divwin.html. Problem solved. Oh, that's a great solution...as I'd rather not make my vfat partition vulnerable while online (and I do a lot of note-taking and downloading data while online). I had another utility that let me view ext2 files, but not copy them to vfat. This way, whatever files I copy to vfat, are only those I edit, thus are obviously ones to move back to ext2. This simplifies my updating chore. Thanks gigabytes, Nicolai! ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Mon Jul 10 00:01:10 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Partition Sharing Message-ID: <20000710070110.27511.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > I believe there are "mount" options to set the owning user/group and > rights mask of partitions like vfat that don't actually have that > information in them. Like this, from the mount(8) manpage: Okay, I will study this matter. I *knew there had to be a way, since as root, there was no problem loading and editing text files directly from and to vfat. While I think I'll settle with Nicolai's idea of using a cross-platform file viewer/copier, I still want to learn how to use "mount" to accomplish write-access to vfat, as a user. Thanx, Rick. ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Mon Jul 10 00:11:10 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! Message-ID: <20000710071110.7741.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com> Rick Moen said: >(By the way, please stop setting the Reply-To header. Thanks.) Assuming problem was due to a "reply to" address different from the "from" one, I have set up a separate yahoo mailbox just for my mailing lists. Since my lists are adding up, I really need to dedicate a mailbox just for this purpose...which address is . ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From nick at netaxs.com Mon Jul 10 00:28:48 2000 From: nick at netaxs.com (Nicolai Rosen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] Procmail Message-ID: Does anybody have a working procmail rule for this mailing list, because I've got to say that frankly it confounds me. I've got: :0: * ^To:.*buug at weak.org buug :0: * ^Cc:.*buug at weak.org buug and yet messages make it through. Nicolai Rosen, nick at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~nick/ "Nah, mathemeticians stay away from actual, specific numbers as much as possible. We like to talk about numbers without actually exposing ourselves to them--that's what computers are for." -Randy Waterhouse, _Cryptonomicon_, by Neil Stephenson From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 10 00:38:46 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:38:46 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000709221012.21124.qmail@web5405.mail.yahoo.com>; from zkrahlin@yahoo.com on Sun, Jul 09, 2000 at 03:10:12PM -0700 References: <20000709221012.21124.qmail@web5405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000710003846.J9118@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > --- Rick Moen wrote: >> (By the way, please stop setting the Reply-To header. Thanks.) > > Not sure what you mean about this, Rick. It's not a big thing, but your Reply-To header has the immediate effect of auto-directing replies to your list posts to your private e-mail mailbox (and off the list). Every time I want to follow up one of your list posts, posting back to the list, I have to manually override your Reply-To. But if that's what your situation needs, that's OK. It's a minor matter. > I already have. Reading your helpful material has been an important > guide to my practical use of Linux. What a *horrid realization to > discover so many newbies logging on as root. I can see why you are so > concerned. The nice thing is that your clients will never mess up the machine setups you've crafted for them, because the system is protected from mishap. A few years from now, it'll start to dawn on them that their systems aren't degrading over time, as they're used to. The worst they can ever do is mess up their home directories, which you can recreate for them in a jiffy. (Also, they can sometimes screw up filesystems by kicking out the power cord and such. This risk will vanish as ext3, Reiserfs, and other journaling filesystems become available.) And your earlier points were well taken, against somewhat dogged resistance from me: There can be, and ought to be, a class of users who are not at all concerned with how Linux (or one of its brethren) works, and who can successfully use the software while remaining ignorant of computing basics. The usual obstacle to that is that they refuse to pay anyone to install and configure their systems, or to administer them. They want installer routines to run themselves flawlessly, even on unbelievably crappy x86 hardware components (e.g., Lucent winmodems, controllerless printers). They want the default computing environment to be absolutely intuitive and meet all their needs _without_ custom configuration. They don't believe in system administration (if they've even heard the term). It can't be done. Even the best-tweaked desktop-oriented Unix, such as Linux-Mandrake or Corel Linux, is necessarily configured in a somewhat generic fashion. And x86 hardware will always hold pitfalls. And Unixes cannot be totally automated, even after being custom-configured. But your solution can fix all that. You do the installation and configuration, and then you meet their administration needs and keep the root password to yourself. _Absent_ that, what tends to happen is that all those people with totally unrealistic expectations, and an attitude problem that the less they pay for assistance, the less they should respect it, come pouring into Linux newsgroups and user-group mailing lists, demanding fixes to their problems but refusing to learn to be self-sufficient. Those are the encounters I find annoying: My standard retort to such people is that you cannot adopt Linux -- and especially to install it on x86 -- and expect to remain ignorant of computers. But you have indeed pointed out an alternative. > I did *not know about "kibitz/Expect", so thanks for introducing me to > Libes's site. I learned about that by talking to my friend Jim Dennis. He does the "Answer Guy" column every month in Linux Gazette, which is well worth reading: http://www.linuxgazette.com/ > Enjoy your barbecue; I sure enjoyed mine! :D The first Menlo Park CABAL meeting was surprisingly successful: We had some 15-20 people, I would guess, and some of them took it upon themselves to go out and get supplies for the barbecue! Everyone had a good time, it was relaxed, and we extended high-speed networking to my dining room table, where people spread out their systems. I think this may become my test-bed for effort to create an "InstallFest server" -- a standard set of Web pages and other machine setup for InstallFests, with mirrors of the most commonly-needed information and browsable information on available software, expertise, etc., which we can stamp out on CD-ROMs or offer over the Net. A group would use this setup to set up a walk-up kiosk to introduce people to their InstallFest and direct them to resources they might not otherwise know exist. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 10 00:57:31 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:57:31 -0700 Subject: [buug] Procmail In-Reply-To: ; from nick@netaxs.com on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 03:28:48AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000710005731.M9118@linuxmafia.com> begin Nicolai Rosen quotation: > Does anybody have a working procmail rule for this mailing list, because > I've got to say that frankly it confounds me. I don't have this one filed, because it's low-bandwidth. But this one works for me, for the SVLUG list: :0: * ^(To|Sender|Cc):.\[svlug\] svlug -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 10 00:59:56 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:59:56 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000710071110.7741.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 12:11:10AM -0700 References: <20000710071110.7741.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000710005956.N9118@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > Assuming problem was due to a "reply to" address different from the "from" > one, I have set up a separate yahoo mailbox just for my mailing lists. For clarification, here's the full set of headers from one of your earlier posts. Please note the Reply-To:, about twelfth line from the bottom. >From buug-admin at weak.org Sun Jul 09 15:52:32 2000 Return-path: Envelope-to: rick at linuxmafia.com Delivery-date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 15:52:32 -0700 Received: from weak.org ([216.103.110.222] ident=root) by uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13BPw7-0000tb-00 for ; Sun, 09 Jul 2000 15:52:32 -0700 Received: from weak.org (IDENT:sendmail at localhost [127.0.0.1]) by weak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03392; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web5401.mail.yahoo.com (web5401.mail.yahoo.com [216.115.106.132]) by weak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA03355 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20000709225028.24792.qmail at web5401.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.209.42.176] by web5401.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 09 Jul 2000 +15:50:28 PDT Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:50:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Zeke Krahlin Reply-To: ezekielk at iname.com To: buug at weak.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [buug] Partition Sharing Sender: buug-admin at weak.org Errors-To: buug-admin at weak.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.1 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Berkeley Unix User Group X-BeenThere: buug at weak.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by weak.org id PAA03392 -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 10 01:07:00 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 01:07:00 -0700 Subject: [buug] Partition Sharing In-Reply-To: <20000710070110.27511.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 12:01:10AM -0700 References: <20000710070110.27511.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000710010700.O9118@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > While I think I'll settle with Nicolai's idea of using a cross-platform > file viewer/copier, I still want to learn how to use "mount" to accomplish > write-access to vfat, as a user. Thanx, Rick. Ordinarily, one automates the mounting process through adding lines to /etc/fstab. Each line of that file is essentially a mount command, slightly rearranged. You put into the "options" field on such lines whatever extra options you would have given to the mount command, if you were doing the job manually. The /etc/fstab (File System TABle) is a list of all the filesystems that are to be auto-mounted at boot time, plus sometimes a few that you wish to make _easily_ mountable without lots of complicated parameters, but not automatically mount at boot time. Your CD-ROM and floppy drives usually are of the latter type. Here's one of my laptops' fstab: # # /dev/hda1 /boot ext2 defaults 0 2 /dev/hda2 / ext2 defaults,errors=remount-ro 0 1 /dev/hda3 /var ext2 defaults 0 2 /dev/hda5 none swap sw 0 0 /dev/hda6 /usr ext2 defaults 0 2 /dev/hda7 /usr/local ext2 defaults 0 2 proc /proc proc defaults 0 0 /dev/hdc /mnt/cdrom iso9660 ro,noauto 0 0 /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy ext2 noauto 0 0 Notice the "noauto" field for the floppy and CD-ROM. Every other line's filesystem gets auto-mounted at boot time. Notice the "" area: That is where you would specify mount options such as uid/gid and rights masks. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From zk_lists at yahoo.com Mon Jul 10 03:50:17 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! Message-ID: <20000710105017.29864.qmail@web5505.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > For clarification, here's the full set of headers from one of your > earlier posts. Please note the Reply-To:, about twelfth line from the > bottom. > From: Zeke Krahlin > Reply-To: ezekielk at iname.com Yes, that is how I have set up my yahoo.com, for that mailbox. I had no idea it would cause any problems. I had signed up with our list twice--once for each e-mail address. Now, in what way would having these two different addresses thwart some process in a mailing list? I am signed up this way, with several other lists...none of which report any difficulties. Perhaps it may cause problems later on down the line? TIA. ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Mon Jul 10 03:51:34 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! Message-ID: <20000710105134.29984.qmail@web5505.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > For clarification, here's the full set of headers from one of your > earlier posts. Please note the Reply-To:, about twelfth line from the > bottom. > From: Zeke Krahlin > Reply-To: ezekielk at iname.com Yes, that is how I have set up my yahoo.com, for that mailbox. I had no idea it would cause any problems. I had signed up with our list twice--once for each e-mail address. Now, in what way would having these two different addresses thwart some process in a mailing list? I am signed up this way, with several other lists...none of which report any difficulties. Perhaps it may cause problems later on down the line? TIA. ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Mon Jul 10 04:27:21 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 04:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! Message-ID: <20000710112721.6990.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > It's not a big thing, but your Reply-To header has the immediate effect > of auto-directing replies to your list posts to your private e-mail > mailbox (and off the list). Every time I want to follow up one of your > list posts, posting back to the list, I have to manually override your > Reply-To. IOW: It's best that I go by established protocol...which is how I want to do things, anyway. Please ignore my last posting, asking you exactly what's up with this, as you just answered it in this message. Guessing that it would be better to use just one e-mail address for both "from" and "reply-to", last night I created a new mailbox specifically for my mailing lists. > The nice thing is that your clients will never mess up the machine > setups you've crafted for them, because the system is protected from > mishap. They don't even use a news reader, chat, or ftp client...making my work that much easier, giving me the breathing space I need, during this first major LLC (Linux Learning Curve). Any downloading they do is rare, and it's only via http in a Netscape browser. Their main interests on the 'Net, for now, are web browsing and e-mail. But in a few months, I'll be quite capable of setting up more elaborate desktops for those who are a few steps beyond my pleasant Linux clients. They are kind enough to allow me to use them as my "beta testees". BTW, my clients are very intelligent and gifted...but definitely not when it comes to computers. We can't *all dedicate our lives to the chips! > A few years from now, it'll start to dawn on them that their > systems aren't degrading over time, as they're used to. I already pointed this out to them...another bonus they are pleased to hear about. But it was an easy sell, when I told them their virus-attack worries would be gone. > The worst they > can ever do is mess up their home directories, which you can recreate > for them in a jiffy. (Also, they can sometimes screw up filesystems > by kicking out the power cord and such. This risk will vanish as > ext3, Reiserfs, and other journaling filesystems become available.) I already am a master at installing Linux on the fly, and setting up a client desktop. The process is a lot less messy than a similar situation in Windoze. I certainly look forward to the evolution of Linux, and am very happy to be part of this amazing community. > And your earlier points were well taken, against somewhat dogged > resistance from me: Ha ha! Just makes your compliments so much more valuable, 'cause you know they're sincere. > There can be, and ought to be, a class of users who > are not at all concerned with how Linux (or one of its brethren) works, > and who can successfully use the software while remaining ignorant of > computing basics. The PC is *supposed to serve these folks. And what I find so amazing about the personal computer, is all the ingenuity that has sprung up around it, including the vast collection of freeware and shareware...including all those marvelous games. I am astounded at such genius. I have had the great pleasure of working under Andrew Fleugelman (co-creator of the shareware concept, original editor of Whole Earth News, auther of PC-Talk) as my department manager. This was way back in 1985, working at the offices of the then-spanking-new-magazine "PC World". I have also contributed (back in those "golden years") some of my own original projects to the public domain...one of which was a full-blown animation tale done in pure ANSI: "SallyJones". (My name back then was different, as I legally changed it in 1996.) So I have a great respect and appreciation for the freeware subculture, including the open source movement of which Linux plays a central role. > The usual obstacle to that is that they refuse to pay anyone to install > and configure their systems, or to administer them. That is wrong, but I know what you mean. They don't really *appreciate the value of the computer. I mentioned this to one of my clients, who depends on his PC for his livelihood...as he runs certain programs in DOS for his real-estate appraisal work. I have urged him quite frequently, to get into the habit of running scandisk once a week, and defrag once per month, or he'll likely lose all his data. I've also advised him to get a decent backup system. Well, the inevitable occurred: his system crashed because he neglect those two housekeeping chores. Only then did he decide to purchase a backup peripheral, and keep a better house. I told him he should appreciate his system more, as he depends on it to earn a living...and that he should set aside a little more money than he has in the past, in order to keep his PC well tuned. > They don't believe in system administration (if they've even heard > the term). And that is precisely why so many e-businesses have lousy security: they don't pay for decent adminstration. > And x86 hardware will always hold pitfalls. But you gotta do with what you have: and PC's are de riguer for the home and small-business users. I gather you deal mostly with networking, and thus must deal daily with better systems, as well as with short-sighted supervisors who shun administration. > I learned about that by talking to my friend Jim Dennis. He does the > "Answer Guy" column every month in Linux Gazette, which is well worth > reading: http://www.linuxgazette.com/ A fine publication. I must devote more time to reading that, and a few others. > The first Menlo Park CABAL meeting was surprisingly successful: Does sound like a great get-together. Glad it worked out so well. > I think this may become my test-bed for effort to create an "InstallFest > server" Wow, sounds wonderful! I'm sure many will appreciate that. Presume this will be in Debian? ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From nick at netaxs.com Mon Jul 10 12:07:43 2000 From: nick at netaxs.com (Nicolai Rosen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000710003846.J9118@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Rick Moen wrote: > The usual obstacle to that is that they refuse to pay anyone to install > and configure their systems, or to administer them. They want > installer routines to run themselves flawlessly, even on unbelievably > crappy x86 hardware components (e.g., Lucent winmodems, controllerless > printers). They want the default computing environment to be absolutely > intuitive and meet all their needs _without_ custom configuration. They > don't believe in system administration (if they've even heard the term). > > It can't be done. Even the best-tweaked desktop-oriented Unix, such as > Linux-Mandrake or Corel Linux, is necessarily configured in a somewhat > generic fashion. And x86 hardware will always hold pitfalls. And > Unixes cannot be totally automated, even after being custom-configured. But it can be done. If the people who manufacture these computers configured the install themselves & then burned it onto a CD so it could always be fixed then this would work. If you're going to buy a custom built computer from mom & pop then obviously you're going to have to know something, but there's no reason why computers can't be preset to be relatively idiot resistant. > _Absent_ that, what tends to happen is that all those people with > totally unrealistic expectations, and an attitude problem that the > less they pay for assistance, the less they should respect it, come > pouring into Linux newsgroups and user-group mailing lists, demanding > fixes to their problems but refusing to learn to be self-sufficient. Yeah, this will probably never change. Recently clueless fucks have been coming into plug and asking questions answered in man pages or by using a --help argument. I don't so much mind answering these sorts of questions in person at install fests & the like, but it really does get on my nerves when as much time as possible is wasted by using text. > I think this may become my test-bed for effort to create an "InstallFest > server" -- a standard set of Web pages and other machine setup for > InstallFests, with mirrors of the most commonly-needed information and > browsable information on available software, expertise, etc., which we > can stamp out on CD-ROMs or offer over the Net. A group would use this > setup to set up a walk-up kiosk to introduce people to their InstallFest > and direct them to resources they might not otherwise know exist. Not a bad idea, an install fest HOWTO would be nice. Nicolai Rosen, nick at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~nick/ If god had intended for people to smoke, he would have lit them on fire. From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 10 14:05:41 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:05:41 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: ; from nick@netaxs.com on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 03:07:43PM -0400 References: <20000710003846.J9118@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20000710140541.E9605@linuxmafia.com> begin Nicolai Rosen quotation: > But it can be done. If the people who manufacture these computers > configured the install themselves & then burned it onto a CD so it > could always be fixed then this would work. I was referring to Linux _distributions_, per the current model. My perspective is that of a long-time Linux community member, vexing by an ongoing flood of whiney and _wilfully_ hapless new users coming into community forums, and noisily demanding to be helped, but insisting on dictating ridiculous terms. Those are the people who've already bought inappropriate and usually crappy hardware, have already bought a generic distribution in some boxed set, and only -=then=- come whining to us about their problems. It's all very well for you to say they shouldn't buy computers from the corner clone shop and expect to be able to successfully ignore hardware-compatibility lists. In this, you're quoting my own advice back to _me_. The point (or, one point) of this discussion, however, is how best to contend with the wilfully hapless. > Not a bad idea, an install fest HOWTO would be nice. I was _not_ speaking of an InstallFest HOWTO -- though I have a draft of one of those, from a different and in my view more useful model than the three or four already floating around. What I've been working on is a preconfigured set of Web pages, ftp directories, and setup instructions that can be quickly placed on any *ix computer to serve as a largely preconfigured InstallFest server. That server would (thereby) present to users browsing either on the console or nearby boxen a coherent set of Web pages welcoming them to the InstallFest, telling them what distributions are available for network or other installation, giving them step-by-step instructions for how to get on the InstallFest LAN (if necessary, whom to borrow an appropriate NIC from, and how), which local experts are available on various topics and how to get their attention, what IP, netmask, gateway (if any), and DNS address to use, if there's DHCP active, where to make boot floppies from, what mirrors of important informational Web sites and file collections (including distribution update packages, new X server packages, and crypto code) are on hand, and what they'll want to do next, after going home. That sort of thing. Most InstallFests I've attended (or help run) are sadly chaotic, and the newbies who attend are allowed to follow their natural inclination to ignore the InstallFest LAN and remain blind to the distinctive advantages of Unix. That is bad because you then miss about 60% of the point of using a Unix. Metaphorically, these are goatherds you've just given a horse. Left to themselves, they'll turn the horse into the best possible goat they can make it. If we're going to go to all the trouble of running InstallFests, we need to show them how to ride. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From nick at netaxs.com Mon Jul 10 15:00:28 2000 From: nick at netaxs.com (Nicolai Rosen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000710105017.29864.qmail@web5505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think that the fault lies more in the list than in Zeke's setup. As it is messages are passed on pretty much unmodified. That's obnoxious reply wise. It would be nice if a reply-to: buug at weak.org header was added and other reply-to: headers stripped. Who administers this list anyway? On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Zeke Krahlin wrote: > --- Rick Moen wrote: > > For clarification, here's the full set of headers from one of your > > earlier posts. Please note the Reply-To:, about twelfth line from the > > bottom. > > > From: Zeke Krahlin > > Reply-To: ezekielk at iname.com > > Yes, that is how I have set up my yahoo.com, for that mailbox. I had no > idea it would cause any problems. I had signed up with our list > twice--once for each e-mail address. Now, in what way would having these > two different addresses thwart some process in a mailing list? I am signed > up this way, with several other lists...none of which report any > difficulties. Perhaps it may cause problems later on down the line? TIA. > > > ===== > In our geekness, let us schmooze! > http://www.weak.org/buug > ===== > FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat > http://www5.50megs.com/fnc > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > Nicolai Rosen, nick at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~nick/ problems do have solutions you know a lifetime of fucking things up fixed in one determined flash -nine inch nails, the downward spiral From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 10 15:04:12 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:04:12 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: ; from nick@netaxs.com on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 06:00:28PM -0400 References: <20000710105017.29864.qmail@web5505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000710150412.B17651@linuxmafia.com> begin Nicolai Rosen quotation: > It would be nice if a reply-to: buug at weak.org header was added.... Aaarrggh! Please not that discussion, again. http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#replyto -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From nick at netaxs.com Mon Jul 10 15:34:13 2000 From: nick at netaxs.com (Nicolai Rosen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:34:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000710150412.B17651@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: k, I get it. The person who made the decision had a little reasoning problem and there were enough people with the same problem backing him/her up to force us all to suffer. Regardless, don't bitch about a problem that would be solved by a solution you're unwilling to support. This applies double here as one of the primary reasons cited for no Reply-To: buug at weak.org was so that people could do exactly what Zeke's doing. On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Rick Moen wrote: > begin Nicolai Rosen quotation: > > It would be nice if a reply-to: buug at weak.org header was added.... > > Aaarrggh! Please not that discussion, again. > > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#replyto > > -- > Cheers, Right to keep and bear > Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged > rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > Nicolai Rosen, nick at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~nick/ ...in the beginning, man created god From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 10 16:25:45 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:25:45 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: ; from nick@netaxs.com on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 06:34:13PM -0400 References: <20000710150412.B17651@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20000710162545.D17651@linuxmafia.com> begin Nicolai Rosen quotation: > k, I get it. Nope. Aaarrggh! Please not that discussion, again. http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#replyto -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From nick at netaxs.com Mon Jul 10 16:29:16 2000 From: nick at netaxs.com (Nicolai Rosen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000710162545.D17651@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Rick Moen wrote: > begin Nicolai Rosen quotation: > > > k, I get it. > > Nope. > > Aaarrggh! Please not that discussion, again. > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#replyto I wasn't starting up the discussion again. If you notice I made no points as to why I was right & you were wrong or anything. I was just saying that you had to lie in the bed you made for yourself. Nicolai Rosen, nick at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~nick/ There are some who argue that this decreases readability. They are wrong. -Learning Perl on the use of sort { $a <=> $b } @list Randal L. Schwartz & Tom Christiansen From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 10 16:32:37 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:32:37 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: ; from nick@netaxs.com on Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 07:29:16PM -0400 References: <20000710162545.D17651@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20000710163237.G17651@linuxmafia.com> begin Nicolai Rosen quotation: > I was just saying that you had to lie in the bed you made for > yourself. Then, I'll be charitable, and say that you simply fail to comprehend. Probably several things, including why one-to-many media such as mailing lists were just not anticipated in SMTP's design. Plus, oh, basic courtesy. HTH. HAND. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From feedle at feedle.net Tue Jul 11 18:23:02 2000 From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:23:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: <20000707195110.D1670@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: First off, apologies that I'm getting into this conversation late, but I wanted to say a couple of things here, as somebody who's been around the "personal computer" business since it involved assembing your own Apple I or MITS Altair from parts. On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Rick Moen wrote: > begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > > > They don't *care about the inner workings of any PC, no matter what OS > > is being used. They just want to get the job done, and/or play games > > and browse the web. They are either running their own small business > > with the PC as somewhat useful...or run their computer for pure > > pleasure. Some are disabled, on very low income, and are politially > > astute enough to desire to boycott Micro$oft...but in need of some > > help in going over to Linux. > > You have a point. You make a decent case that there's a niche to fill, > here. I have no doubt that some books do it passably well, but that I > just don't appreciate them on such terms. > > The fly in the ointment is that you're still using x86 hardware and > doing it using a general-purpose operating system. Both mean that > efforts to hide complexity are somewhat doomed. Worse, the lower > the price point, the worse the hardware complexity becomes. Hear hear! Nothing is more irritating than controller-less hardware like WinModems and stupid printers. The entire reason for this is to make the hardware cheaper, and invariably, it ends up breaking even on Windows with the right drivers. But this is not a new phenomena. Granted, it's reached crisis porportions (just try buying, for example, a joystick that dosen't need some [Windows-only] driver to work properly), but this is nothing new. > Anyone trying to do simple, office/personal-productivity task-oriented > computing on x86 can only go so far in ignoring the machine's details -- > because the hardware design is too unstandardised and sometimes > downright defective. So, I tell people, low-cost x86 computing _or_ > avoiding the need to become knowledgeable about hardware: Pick one. > You cannot have them both, not for long, or with any satisfaction. > The smart move is to go for learning about hardware. The problem with this formula is the reasoning behind why a lot of these "newbies" are getting into "computers." It's the same bunch who bought Apple //e's and Commodore 64's late in those products' life. They want to buy a computer not because of some actual "need", but more to fulfill some weird "keeping up with the Jones'" kind of thought process. So, they go down to Circuit Circus (or insert your favorite retail computer chain here), buy whatever is on the shelf, and in two years it'll end up in the garage with the Chia Pet. Unfortunately for us (us being the free *NIX "user" community), the hot thing right now is Linux. Thing is, just like the C-64 and Apple //e, the learning curve is very steep. Also, they are entering a world that is a lot more than just a piece of software: it's an entire _CULTURE_, with it's own history and etiquette. The steepness in the learning curve, I dare say, is not the software itself, but an entire culture that, as others more intelligent than I have written about, runs counter to many of the concepts of how the world works everywhere else. We're talking about "The Gift Culture." If I may be so bold, many newcomers have never dealt with such a strange world before. Some have, and those people are easy to spot. But, your typical SUV-driving yuppie has a hard time dealing with the fact that what makes his new toy go is a piece of software written by (what amounts to) volunteers that create not for financial reward, but for the love of the Work (maybe with a side of Fame). So when they post "Waaaaaaaaaah! It don't work" posts, it's because they've spent their entire life in the Cathedral, where crying to the great Confessinal of Customer Service (and paying a small penance, sometimes) gets All Problems Solved. The Cathedal and the Bazaar are not just constructs of software development models. Parallels can be drawn between these differing marketplaces of ideas in other areas as well. > If people say they want both (ignorance and low cost), I wish them good > luck, but personall can't help them. (I don't have the patience, and > don't want to deal with their attitude. I'd tell them to buy PowerMacs, > except when they started whining about the price, I'd probably lose my > cool, so it's better to just say bon voyage.) The irony of it is, Macintosh computers are cheaper (price/performance wise) than they have ever been. This speaks more of Apple's lousy marketing right now than of their attitude. > That brings us to the second point, about Linux being a general-purpose > computing environment: > > Have you ever heard annoying, whiney people ask (rhetorically) why > computers should have to be so complex, when automobiles are simple > by comparison? The implication is that we should somehow feel ashamed > to have thus failed the questioner in his reasonable requirement that > everything he wants to use be made simple for him. Huzzah! Ask these whiners what they want to do with the computer, and you might get a few answers like "surf the net" and maybe an occasional "edit Word documents" (read: use it as a fancy typewriter). Almost without question, just about every task could be performed by a machine the power and performance of an i-opener. > The questioner's error is in assuming that he needs a computer, just > because he likes to browse the Web, process e-mail, play games, and > write, store, & file things. He assumes this requires a computer > because that's all he knows about. Precisely. > On the horizon will be new "computing appliances", at much lower > price points (maybe $200 or so) that have deliberately simplified > functionality and are difficult or essentially impossible to mess up. > Many of these will be based on embedded Linux. Those are probably > what your customers need, not general-purpose computers at all. There a little more than on the horizon. Such "computing applicances" have been around for 10 years. Unfortunately, they've been failures every time. I can name countless examples of "computing applicances" that have been built. Every single one was superior at what it did than a general purpose computer. Every single one failed. Case study: about six years ago, Canon made a really nice word processing machine that ran GEOS as it's operating system. It had a real nice paper-white display, included fax capabilities, had a thermal printer and a Canon bubblejet printer, power saving mode, and even had some primitive E-mail functionality. It was a good deal at around $500. Adray's, the electronics store I worked at in Southern California at the time of their release in the mid 90's, had 28 of them in their liquidation auction. That's exactly two fewer than we had when I left them in 1995. A number of electronics manufacturers have tried to make information appliances, from sophisticated word processors (Brother's recent GEOS based laptop even had a web browser), to internet devices like WebTV (not exactly a rousing success by any traditional measure). None have had any level of mass-market success, even though most were perfect for the application they were designed for. So, I think that we're doomed. We're stuck with the whiners. This is why I personally think InstallFests at computer shows are not a really good idea. Perhaps an organized evangelical display, staffed with patient members of the local Open Source community. And then, quietly, invite potential installees to the LinuxCabal (grin) for snacks and the _real_ InstallFest. -Fedl From nick at netaxs.com Wed Jul 12 02:10:30 2000 From: nick at netaxs.com (Nicolai Rosen) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 05:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] Re: Jackpot! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Christopher Sullivan wrote: > Hear hear! Nothing is more irritating than controller-less hardware like > WinModems and stupid printers. The entire reason for this is to make the > hardware cheaper, and invariably, it ends up breaking even on Windows with > the right drivers. I love the reasoning behind these things. What winmodems have cost in man hours for me alone amounts to the gnp of a small third world country. It took me a while, but I finally learned that it's cheaper to put in an extra few hours overtime at work and throw out bad hardware (or give it away to an enemy or something) than try and get it to work. Don't even get me started on all in one sound/modem/ide cards... *grrrr* > If I may be so bold, many newcomers have never dealt with such a strange > world before. Some have, and those people are easy to spot. But, your > typical SUV-driving yuppie has a hard time dealing with the fact that what > makes his new toy go is a piece of software written by (what amounts > to) volunteers that create not for financial reward, but for the love of > the Work (maybe with a side of Fame). Don't forget the feel good aspect of giving. I've been both the benefactor and benefited party in some rather generous hardware exchanges with people I hardly know recently and I've gotta say that both really feel darned good. > > If people say they want both (ignorance and low cost), I wish them good > > luck, but personall can't help them. (I don't have the patience, and > > don't want to deal with their attitude. I'd tell them to buy PowerMacs, > > except when they started whining about the price, I'd probably lose my > > cool, so it's better to just say bon voyage.) > > The irony of it is, Macintosh computers are cheaper (price/performance > wise) than they have ever been. This speaks more of Apple's lousy > marketing right now than of their attitude. Still not cheaper price/performance than PCs, but I don't want to start a holy war here. I've got to agree that macs are quality hardware. > > That brings us to the second point, about Linux being a general-purpose > > computing environment: > > > > Have you ever heard annoying, whiney people ask (rhetorically) why > > computers should have to be so complex, when automobiles are simple > > by comparison? The implication is that we should somehow feel ashamed > > to have thus failed the questioner in his reasonable requirement that > > everything he wants to use be made simple for him. > > Huzzah! Ask these whiners what they want to do with the computer, and you > might get a few answers like "surf the net" and maybe an occasional "edit > Word documents" (read: use it as a fancy typewriter). Almost without > question, just about every task could be performed by a machine the power > and performance of an i-opener. Don't underestimate the power of porn. Seriously though, multimedia crap software is very important to most users. You take away java, shockwave, real blech, and all the other crap running on most PCs and suddenly the text and picture only web becomes boring to most. Oh yeah, & don't forget e-mail. > So, I think that we're doomed. We're stuck with the whiners. This is why > I personally think InstallFests at computer shows are not a really good > idea. Perhaps an organized evangelical display, staffed with patient > members of the local Open Source community. And then, quietly, invite > potential installees to the LinuxCabal (grin) for snacks and the _real_ > InstallFest. oh well, I guess that leaves me out. patience has never been one of my chief virtues, though I have plenty of enthusiasm for the second refined group if you guys want to weed out the others for me :) Nicolai Rosen, nick at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~nick/ There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages. -Richard Lederer From zk_lists at yahoo.com Fri Jul 14 03:35:43 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] New Member, Eric Message-ID: <20000714103543.8191.qmail@web5502.mail.yahoo.com> About 10 minutes after you guys (Jon, Feedle, Lorenzo) gallavanted off into the early night, a new member showed up: Eric. We had a great conversation for about a half hour before wrapping things up and I headed home. He seems interested in showing up regularly, and excels in both Linux and BSD. Has one of those nifty, pricey Sony mini-laptops that I just drool over. I always stay until at least 9pm...and do you know, sometimes someone shows up right at 9, or just after? I even had one guy tell me some weeks ago, that he showed up but no one was around. I said "What time?" His answer: "Midnight." I love penguins, but not *that much! ;) ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Sat Jul 15 02:55:55 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 02:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Block Ads w/o Extra Software Message-ID: <20000715095555.3653.qmail@web5505.mail.yahoo.com> This tidbit from my FreeNetCubs board: ---begin article BLOCK ADS WITHOUT EXTRA SOFTWARE!!! Posted by Borisse on 7/14/2000 IP: 194.170.168.228 This is a simple but elegant way to block adds from showing up in your browser. All you do is make some manipulations to the so-called 'hosts' file. No extra software is needed. Please visit these sites for instructions: http://accs-net.com/hosts/howto.html http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~atman/spam/adblock.shtml To summarize, all you do is enter the domain names of the ad servers in the form '127.0.0.1 ad.server.domain.name' into your hosts file, which is /etc/hosts in linux (or for you Microsoft luzers it's Windows 95/98 c:\windows\hosts and Windows NT/2000 c:\winnt\system32\drivers\etc\hosts). (If you are using a proxy, enter 127.0.0.1 also into the 'bypass proxy for which addresses' in Netscape properties). Basically, for whatever sites are listed in your 'hosts' file after 127.0.0.1, your computer thinks these sites reside on your local machine, so IT DOES NOT LOOK THEM UP ON THE INTERNET. Whoever thought of this techniqe is a fucking GENIUS! I just tried it in Linux and it works like a charm!! Again, there is no need for extra software with this technique!!! ---end article ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Sat Jul 15 22:12:59 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Building a secure gateway Message-ID: <20000716051259.8719.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> Another tidbit from my (recently resurrected) FreeNetCubs board: ---begin article: Building a Secure Gateway Posted by Low Level on 7/14/2000 IP: 206.80.123.4 Home networking is becoming more and more prevalent these days, and it is always a good idea to keep security in mind, lest you find your hard drive completely erased one morning!! Here is a pair of real winners, tutorials on how to set up a secrue gateway for your Linux-based home network. http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue54/stoddard.html http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue55/stoddard.html Using these techniqes, you can build a gateway that is pretty darn hard to crack into. ---end article ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 17 10:16:10 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:16:10 -0700 Subject: [buug] Block Ads w/o Extra Software In-Reply-To: <20000715095555.3653.qmail@web5505.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 02:55:55AM -0700 References: <20000715095555.3653.qmail@web5505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000717101610.A26779@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation (quoting a Web-forum post by Borisse): > This is a simple but elegant way to block adds from showing up in your > browser. All you do is make some manipulations to the so-called > 'hosts' file. No extra software is needed. Yes, but. That works only to the extent you can identify named hosts you want to block entirely. It creates a number of problems: 1. Ad servers invoked by IP address, rather than hostname, get through. Check the HTML of ad-laden pages, and you'll see that this is a big hole. 2. It's ineffective against ad domains that use a huge variety of hostnames. I.e., there's no way to block *.doubleclick.net, so you'd end up with an endless maintenance task, adding the interminable series of new Doubleclick hostnames to your static hosts file. 3. It results in your pages being peppered with broken links, which sometimes impair legibility. 4. In cases where a hostname contains both substantive content and ads, there's no way to allow the former but not the latter. 5. If memory serves, some substantive sites do not work at all without some redirect code (but not the ads themselves) from the linked ad servers. 6. It does nothing to control cookies. (Some people adopt the quick-fix of symlinking ~/.netscape/cookies to /dev/null . This has some predictable disadvantages.) All of these disadvantages can be cured using more selective remedies, such as the Internet Junkbuster proxy, which rewrites HTTP exchanges to protect your privacy, eliminate ads, _and_ carefully manage your cookies file: http://www.internet.junkbusters.com/ You'll also want to see Don Marti's Realtime Backhoe List: http://zgp.org/rbhl/ He also maintains Webclean, a proxy that can be used by anyone running an Apache server. (It uses the mod_rewrite module.) http://zgp.org/~dmarti/webclean/ Also, if you are running a DNS nameserver, you can easily consign entire advertising domains such as doubleclick.net to oblivion: http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2000-April/000340.html My own nameserver (currently at 209.81.22.250) does exactly that: Any users whose machines use it for their DNS will never be troubled by Doubleclick. The problem, you see, is not limited just to ad banners: A number of companies are using both banners and the much-less-obtrusive "Web bugs" (in conjunction with cookies) to track your activity on the Web: http://www.tiac.net/users/smiths/privacy/wbfaq.htm Zeke, you're welcome to post this reply back to your Web forum. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From zk_lists at yahoo.com Mon Jul 17 10:40:19 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Block Ads w/o Extra Software Message-ID: <20000717174019.1045.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > begin Zeke Krahlin quotation (quoting a Web-forum post by Borisse): > > > This is a simple but elegant way to block adds from showing up in your > > browser. All you do is make some manipulations to the so-called > > 'hosts' file. No extra software is needed. > > Yes, but. > > That works only to the extent you can identify named hosts you want to > block entirely. It creates a number of problems: Thanks for your excellent analysis, Rick. > Zeke, you're welcome to post this reply back to your Web forum. I certainly will...I'm sure my participants will appreciate it, as well as go through it with a fine tooth comb. They *love a challenge. ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 17 10:52:18 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:52:18 -0700 Subject: [buug] Block Ads w/o Extra Software In-Reply-To: <20000717174019.1045.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Mon, Jul 17, 2000 at 10:40:19AM -0700 References: <20000717174019.1045.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000717105218.B26779@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > Thanks for your excellent analysis, Rick. You're welcome. I also configure my mail transport agent, Exim, to auto-reject incoming e-mail from spammer sites on the Mail Abuse Prevention System's Realtime Blackhole List (the fabled MAPS RBL). See: http://www.mail-abuse.org/ One Exim configuration snippet is here: http://www.exim.org/howto/rbl.html This configuration doesn't reject the mail, but adds a "X-RBL-Warning:" header to qualifying bits of processed lunch meat. However, because of _this_: http://www.directmag.com/content/newsline/main.html#81 ...I have have just added three special lines to my /etc/exim.conf: # Slimy spammer who got a TRO against the MAPS RBL. sender_reject = *@yesmail.com host_reject = *.yesmail.com Yes, some low-lifes actually _did_ summon up the nerve to sue the MAPS RBL, so I'm very likely to leave this block in against them permanently. -- Cheers, Right to keep and bear Rick Moen Haiku shall not be abridged rick (at) linuxmafia.com Or denied. So there. From feedle at feedle.net Tue Jul 18 12:38:03 2000 From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:38:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [buug] TonStanco@aol.com Message-ID: A few of you will remember TonStanco at aol.com. A couple of months back, a few of us responded to a series of questions he had about Open Sores (Source, dammit... Source!!!). Well, it would appear that our dear friend Tony dosen't know how to operate an E-Mail client properly. He has sent out a message informing those who replied (he To:'d buug at weak.org, and the mail is being held in administrative suspension because he is not a subscriber) with a monster To: header listing everybody's E-Mail address. I hope our list admin dosen't release the E-mail to the list, but I will put his stuff on the "newsletter" website this Friday. On a side note, it would be real nice if reporters would bother to learn the technology they are reporting on. From zk_lists at yahoo.com Tue Jul 18 21:06:12 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Block Ads w/o Extra Software Message-ID: <20000719040612.24999.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > I also configure my mail transport agent, Exim, to auto-reject incoming > e-mail from spammer sites on the Mail Abuse Prevention System's Realtime > Blackhole List (the fabled MAPS RBL). See: http://www.mail-abuse.org/ Thanks! I'll also post a copy of your addendum to FreeNetCubs BBS. ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Tue Jul 18 21:19:18 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] TonStanco@aol.com Message-ID: <20000719041918.7145.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Sullivan wrote: > On a side note, it would be real nice if reporters would bother to learn > the technology they are reporting on. Considering the IQ involved, I wouldn't count on it. Thanks for your diligence. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Wed Jul 19 01:16:33 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Berkeley BAFUG Pizza Count Message-ID: <20000719081633.28069.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> Zeke here, reminding all that the next Berkeley BAFUG meeting is July 27 (4th Thursday of this month), at Transbay/UC Computers...7:30 - 9:00 p.m. And since I'm standing in for Joe Grosch for the summer months of the Berkeley-BAFUG meetings, I need to get a tally of who is showing up, that also wants to partake in the sacred "Pizza Inhalation Therapy". Just post back to me, if you do...and remember to bring $1-$3 bucks to help pay for the treats...and show up 15 minutes early. I have *not yet found a guest speaker for this upcoming BAFUG meeting...so anyone who has a suggestion in this regard, please notify me. Thanx, and see ya this Thursday at Au Coquelot. ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Jul 19 01:21:48 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:21:48 -0700 Subject: [buug] Berkeley BAFUG Pizza Count In-Reply-To: <20000719081633.28069.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Wed, Jul 19, 2000 at 01:16:33AM -0700 References: <20000719081633.28069.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000719012148.B17645@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > And since I'm standing in for Joe Grosch for the summer months of the > Berkeley-BAFUG meetings, I need to get a tally of who is showing up, that > also wants to partake in the sacred "Pizza Inhalation Therapy". Just post > back to me, if you do...and remember to bring $1-$3 bucks to help pay for > the treats...and show up 15 minutes early. Zeke, don't forget to post this query to the BAFUG list, too. -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From zk_lists at yahoo.com Wed Jul 19 14:13:32 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Berkeley BAFUG Pizza Count Message-ID: <20000719211332.27200.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > Zeke, don't forget to post this query to the BAFUG list, too. Done! Three requests for pizza have already come in from that group. ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Thu Jul 20 11:34:26 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000720183426.20088.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> So far, I have had no luck getting "secure shell" to run on my Mandrake 6.1 system. (Everything I did below, was entirely as "super user".) First time installing, this error came up: openssl is needed by openssh-1.2.3-1 openssl is needed by openssh-1.2.3-1 libcrypto.so.0 is needed by openssh-1.2.3-1 So I downloaded openssl-0.9.5-1.i386.rpm, which link was provided in the page where I downloaded openssh: http://ftp.jyu.fi/RPM/contrib/libc6/i386/openssh-1.2.3-1.i386.html I then installed openssl (which apparantly contains "libcrypto"). Then I created a "secure shell" icon on my desktop, linking it to "ssh". But when I click on it, I get this error: KFM Warning Could not exectue program ssh. So I tried the setting "run in terminal". What happens then, is a console window pops up for a brief moment, then disappears. And that's all she wrote! When I open a console window, and try to run "ssh" it says bash: ssh: command not found Well, I loaded kpackage to see where the binary is located. It showed "/etc/ssh", which turned out to be a folder...and empty at that! Likewise for "/usr/libexec/ssh"! Could this be an installation bug? Wasn't it supposed to install a binary file "ssh" in folder "/etc"? Then I go to folder "/usr/doc/openssh-1.2.3", and read INSTALL, which says I also need ""Zlib", at: www.cdrom.com/pub/infozip/zlib/ So I manage to download zlib113.zip, and unzip it. There, I read the instructions in "Makefile". which says: "To compile and test, type: ./configure: make test So I do, just to get this error: bash: ./configure:: No such file or directory Then "Makefile" says, to install, type: make install and I get this error: Makefile:42: *** missing separator. Stop. Well, Jon has generously provide me with a Unix shell, but sadly I'm only able to access it via Windoze98 (because I was able to install an ssh utility there, with no hassle). ===== In our geekness, let us schmooze! http://www.weak.org/buug ===== FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat http://www5.50megs.com/fnc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From dgjs at acm.org Thu Jul 20 12:01:39 2000 From: dgjs at acm.org (dgjs at acm.org) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh In-Reply-To: <20000720183426.20088.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200007201901.MAA27835@fruitfly.bdgp.berkeley.edu> On 20 Jul, Zeke Krahlin wrote: > So far, I have had no luck getting "secure shell" to run on my Mandrake > 6.1 system. Forget the RPMs. I've had no trouble building 'ssh' from sources and installing it on Linux, Solaris, and FreeBSD. > > Then I go to folder "/usr/doc/openssh-1.2.3", and read INSTALL, which says > I also need ""Zlib", at: > > www.cdrom.com/pub/infozip/zlib/ > Are you sure that you don't have 'zlib' on your system? It's part of most Linux distribuions' standard installation (find /usr/lib -name 'libz*' ...). For the 'zlib' sources, try http://www.info-zip.org/pub/infozip/zlib/ David S. > > > > > ===== > In our geekness, let us schmooze! > http://www.weak.org/buug > ===== > FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat > http://www5.50megs.com/fnc > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 20 12:18:36 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:18:36 -0700 Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh In-Reply-To: <20000720183426.20088.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 11:34:26AM -0700 References: <20000720183426.20088.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000720121836.I4051@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > So I downloaded openssl-0.9.5-1.i386.rpm, which link was provided in the > page where I downloaded openssh: > > http://ftp.jyu.fi/RPM/contrib/libc6/i386/openssh-1.2.3-1.i386.html I can't help noticing that that's from "contrib.redhat.com". ^^^^^^ It's really bad idea to assume that you can just install any old RPM Intel binaries on any old RPM-based Intel distribution. Not only does that make failures such as you experienced happen quite often, but you can also apparently seriously hose your system. I once saw someone attempt to install Red Hat x86 RPMs for XFree86 on a SuSE x86 system, and doing so messed up the system so badly that mere removal of the offending packages didn't suffice, and the user ended up wiping the system and starting over. I would guess that the URL above is a rpmfind.net mirror, yes? That's the closest pale imitation that Red Hat systems have of Debian's distributed package system -- and I suppose it's useful, but you should be really, really careful! http://www.linux-mandrake.com/ auto-redirects to http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/ The "free download" link goes to http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/ftp.php3 which is the mirror-site list. Let's pick a mirror site in Finland, so there'll be no possibility of idiocy with USA export laws, or crippled versions because of the RSA patent that expires in three months: ftp://ftp.clinet.fi/mirrors/ftp.linux-mandrake.com/ ...and hunt around for a good long while, and not find it. You know, this is the sort of thing that really pisses me off. Those little weasels at the NSA have managed to browbeat even a _French_ Linux distribution into shipping without effective crypto. One of these days, I may just walk up to the gates of Fort Meade and present them with a bill for all my wasted time. Search the engine on the front page of the Web site for "OpenSSH" and "SSH". Come up dry. Bah. Losers! Oh, wait. The front page, under "Misc", has a link called "Crypto apps", taking you to http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/fcrypto.php3 . It directs you to nine non-USA sites. Let's pick the one in Sweden: ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/Linux/distributions/mandrake-crypto/ Whoo-hoo! In the "RPMS" directory, we find: depslist-crypto 1 Kb Wed Jun 14 16:35:00 2000 gnupg-1.0.1-2mdk.i586.rpm 532 Kb Wed Apr 26 07:03:00 2000 hdlist-crypto.cz2 26 Kb Wed Jun 14 16:35:00 2000 kdebase-crypto-1.91-0.20000718mdk.i586.rpm 29 Kb Mon Jul 17 23:05:00 2000 kdelibs-crypto-1.91-0.20000718mdk.i586.rpm 50 Kb Mon Jul 17 23:05:00 2000 lynx-ssl-2.8.3-1mdk.i586.rpm 851 Kb Wed Apr 26 07:03:00 2000 mod_ssl-2.6.4-1mdk.i586.rpm 357 Kb Mon May 8 13:07:00 2000 mod_ssl-sxnet-2.6.4-1mdk.i586.rpm 19 Kb Mon May 8 13:07:00 2000 netscape-128-common-4.73-7mdk.i586.rpm 6617 Kb Sun Jul 16 15:35:00 2000 netscape-128-communicator-4.73-7mdk.i586.rpm 5626 Kb Sun Jul 16 15:35:00 2000 netscape-128-navigator-4.73-7mdk.i586.rpm 3087 Kb Sun Jul 16 15:35:00 2000 openssh-2.1.1p3-1mdk.i586.rpm 86 Kb Thu Jul 13 05:35:00 2000 openssh-askpass-2.1.1p3-1mdk.i586.rpm 20 Kb Thu Jul 13 05:35:00 2000 openssh-clients-2.1.1p3-1mdk.i586.rpm 121 Kb Thu Jul 13 05:35:00 2000 openssh-server-2.1.1p3-1mdk.i586.rpm 101 Kb Thu Jul 13 05:33:00 2000 openssl-0.9.5a-3mdk.i586.rpm 561 Kb Fri May 26 10:00:00 2000 openssl-devel-0.9.5a-3mdk.i586.rpm 1041 Kb Fri May 26 10:00:00 2000 pgp-6.5.1b2i-3mdk.i586.rpm 529 Kb Mon Jun 5 12:25:00 2000 pgpgpg-0.13-2mdk.i586.rpm 23 Kb Wed Apr 26 07:06:00 2000 sftp-0.7-3mdk.i586.rpm 20 Kb Wed Apr 26 07:06:00 2000 unzip_crypt-5.12-1mdk.i586.rpm 112 Kb Tue May 9 15:44:00 2000 You know something? I'd get all of those. All. > Wasn't it supposed to install a binary file "ssh" in folder "/etc"? Arrgh! No! No!!! Never ever ever. Boy, do _YOU_ need to read the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard. No, binaries never ever go in /etc. That tree is for configuration files. Zeke, if you're going to configure users' systems for them and fulfill the role of sysadmin, you _must_ study Unix and learn its internal logic. You simply must. Otherwise, your whole scheme for configuration and user support fails at its central point. I'm telling you, and I know this is awfully blunt: Stop wasting your time with Que books. Learn how this stuff works, so you can do your clients justice. The FHS document's current version (2.1) can be found at http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/ , but only in PDF format. (What's up with that, Dan? Have you gone pointy-haired and stupid on us?) The immediately prior version (2.0), which is almost identical, is always available in HTML as a link from http://www.pathname.com/fhs/ . Please browse it. You don't have to follow it in all of its gruesome and bureaucratic detail; just get the gist of its key points and distinctions. By the way, if you need access to SSH clients for _any_ platform, I maintain the most comprehensive list anywhere in the world that I (and the SSH mailing list) know of: http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/security/ssh-clients -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 20 12:19:48 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:19:48 -0700 Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh In-Reply-To: <200007201901.MAA27835@fruitfly.bdgp.berkeley.edu>; from dgjs@acm.org on Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 12:01:39PM -0700 References: <20000720183426.20088.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> <200007201901.MAA27835@fruitfly.bdgp.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20000720121948.J4051@linuxmafia.com> begin dgjs at acm.org quotation: > Forget the RPMs. That's what I would do, too. But _at least_ he needs to use the correct RPMs, rather than ones for the wrong distribution. -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From bill at wiliweld.com Thu Jul 20 14:08:01 2000 From: bill at wiliweld.com (Bill Schoolcraft) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh In-Reply-To: <20000720183426.20088.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At Thu, 20 Jul 2000 it looks like Zeke Krahlin composed: ZK-->So far, I have had no luck getting "secure shell" to run on my Mandrake ZK-->6.1 system. (Everything I did below, was entirely as "super user".) First ZK-->time installing, this error came up: ZK--> ZK--> openssl is needed by openssh-1.2.3-1 ZK--> openssl is needed by openssh-1.2.3-1 ZK--> libcrypto.so.0 is needed by openssh-1.2.3-1 The Mandrake version offers (offsite) "Crypto Packages" during the installation and I had the openssh-* packages fail during the installations also. And this was the latest Mandrake-7.1 (boxed set) flavor. Bill Schoolcraft http://www.wiliweld.com PO Box 210076 San Francisco, CA 94121 " saevis tranquillus in undis " From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Jul 20 14:31:00 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:31:00 -0700 Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh In-Reply-To: ; from bill@wiliweld.com on Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 02:08:01PM -0700 References: <20000720183426.20088.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000720143100.E12092@linuxmafia.com> begin Bill Schoolcraft quotation: > The Mandrake version offers (offsite) "Crypto Packages" during the > installation and I had the openssh-* packages fail during the > installations also. And this was the latest Mandrake-7.1 (boxed set) > flavor. There are rough instructions written by Kurt Seifried for securityportal.com. They're no longer on the site, but Google still has it in cache: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.securityportal.com/lskb/articles/kb10000035.html+OpenSSH+installation&hl=en (He says "Requires RSA, in USA you must use RSAREF." Please understand that this does not refer to a technical requirement, but rather a crippling of the RSA implementation one must do if one wishes to comply with RSA Data Security, Inc.'s patent rights that will expire on 2000-09-20.) Perhaps more useful: http://www.openssh.com/install.html Also: http://www.cedarlug.org/presentations/4-11-2000-miller-clear-text/text9.htm http://violet.ibs.com.au/openssh/files/INSTALL http://www.securityportal.com/research/ssh-part2.html -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From feedle at feedle.net Thu Jul 20 14:33:49 2000 From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:33:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh In-Reply-To: <20000720121836.I4051@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jul 2000, Rick Moen wrote: > begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > > > So I downloaded openssl-0.9.5-1.i386.rpm, which link was provided in the > > page where I downloaded openssh: > > > > http://ftp.jyu.fi/RPM/contrib/libc6/i386/openssh-1.2.3-1.i386.html > > It's really bad idea to assume that you can just install any old RPM > Intel binaries on any old RPM-based Intel distribution. Not only does > that make failures such as you experienced happen quite often, but you > can also apparently seriously hose your system. It's not even always a good idea to install an RPM from [insert your least favorite rpm using distribution here] on a Debian system through alien. Even worse: it's usually considered poor security practice to run precompiled binaries for any "secure" application. Better to get the raw source from a known good site, compare MD5 hashes and/or PGP/GPG signatures, and roll it yourself. > You know, this is the sort of thing that really pisses me off. Those > little weasels at the NSA have managed to browbeat even a _French_ Linux > distribution into shipping without effective crypto. One of these days, > I may just walk up to the gates of Fort Meade and present them with a > bill for all my wasted time. Ah, come on, Rick. You don't actually believe our good government in this fine nation would do something like that, do you? All the more reason to roll your own code anyway, IMHO. > I'm telling you, and I know this is awfully blunt: Stop wasting your > time with Que books. Learn how this stuff works, so you can do your > clients justice. Give Zeke a little bit of credit. He's at least trying to learn. This brings up an interesting point, something that sorely lacks. In SoCal, one of the user groups (a Novell user group, ironically enough) operated an open lab where members (and non-members, for a small donation) wre invited to come down and break things. On Saturday, they operated an 'open house', staffed with known local experts on certain topics. It was all well organized and scheduled: on the second Saturday of every month, you knew that some fat guy named "feedle" who was very good with cranky hardware would be there from 11am to around 3pm, and would be willing to get your weird-ass sound card working if you brought him a beer and/or some pizza. Again, although the user group was Novell targetted, we ended up spending a good percentage of our time working on Linux. I'm unaware if they are even still around (I moved out of Orange County three years ago), but it worked well at the time. This sounds like an excellent thing for the LinuxCabal et. al. to get involved in. Hell, I'd volunteer a few hours a month to babysit such an operation. This kinda fits in with my "installfests suck" thought process: this provides a better environment for dealing with complex installs and hardware wrangling than a small table at a Robert Austin computer show. But I'm digressing. Rick, if you want to continue to discuss this, feel free to break this out into another thread, or E-mail me. > The FHS document's current version (2.1) can be found at > http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/ , but only in PDF format. (What's up > with that, Dan? Have you gone pointy-haired and stupid on us?) PDF. Yuck. That being said, the (older) HTML version is just as valid, and in fact, preferred (IMHO) because it's not quite so.. well, bureaucratic. > By the way, if you need access to SSH clients for _any_ platform, I > maintain the most comprehensive list anywhere in the world that I > (and the SSH mailing list) know of: > > http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/security/ssh-clients Plug-o-Matic! On the OpenSSH topic, I can honestly say that the hardest part of rolling your own OpenSSH is that OpenSSL dosen't always build right the first time around on some platforms. I've had a lot of trouble getting it built on Solaris the first time around... until I discovered that having glib makes life a lot easier. (grin) -Fedl From zk_lists at yahoo.com Thu Jul 20 22:23:46 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000721052346.20474.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> --- dgjs at acm.org wrote: > Forget the RPMs. I've had no trouble building 'ssh' from sources and > installing it on Linux, Solaris, and FreeBSD. Okay. But I tried installing the sources after my initial failure to install from an RPM. However, I will try this again, as I didn't keep a record of what went wrong on my first attempt. > Are you sure that you don't have 'zlib' on your system? Well, I don't know if it was there in the first place. I just know that it's there now: /usr/lib/libbz2.a /usr/lib/libbz2.so /usr/lib/libbz2.so.0 /usr/lib/libbz2.so.0.9.0 Assuming those are the "zlib" files. ===== Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Thu Jul 20 23:42:11 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000721064211.2161.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > It's really bad idea to assume that you can just install any old RPM > Intel binaries on any old RPM-based Intel distribution. Not only does > that make failures such as you experienced happen quite often, but you > can also apparently seriously hose your system. I had *no idea. I was led to believe that Mandrake was totally compatible with RPM installations. I have *not come across any such warning in the several Linux books I have finished reading. Thanks for the warning, I appreciate this. This explains why some RPM's failed, and others worked. I thought it was either a glitch in the install, or (more likely) my own ignorance as a Linux newbie going through his first major learning curve. > I once saw someone attempt to install Red Hat x86 RPMs for XFree86 on a > SuSE x86 system, and doing so messed up the system so badly that mere > removal of the offending packages didn't suffice, and the user ended up > wiping the system and starting over. Well, I know nothing about SuSe...but I do know enough not to install DEB on non-Debian distros, and likewise for RPM on non-Redhat distros. Apparantly, my perception in this matter is overly simplistic. > I would guess that the URL above is a rpmfind.net mirror, yes? Yes, it is. I have found that Freshmeat is always too busy for downloads, so I sought out one mirror after another, until finding one that was quite reliable, with an extensive library. > Let's pick a mirror site in Finland, so there'll be no possibility of > idiocy with USA export laws, or crippled versions because of the RSA > patent that expires in three months: That's why I thought I found a good site, it's Finnish: http://ftp.jyu.fi/RPM/Groups.html > It directs you to nine non-USA sites. Let's pick the one in Sweden: > ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/Linux/distributions/mandrake-crypto/ > > Whoo-hoo! In the "RPMS" directory, we find: > You know something? I'd get all of those. All. Okay, I FTP'd them all in one fell swoop...except those three large Netscape files, as I'm already updated to version 4.73. > > Wasn't it supposed to install a binary file "ssh" in folder "/etc"? > > Arrgh! No! No!!! > Never ever ever. Sorry. Of course not, I should have known better. I thought I was looking for a binary called "ssh", so found it in /etc, and jumped to the wrong conclusion, thinking it was an installation glitch. A more careful perusal of open-ssh files via kpackage reveals one binary: /usr/bin/scp But according to the documentation, there is supposed to be an "ssh" binary, as the secure-shell client. There is "ssh-keygen", which I have just executed, to create my public and private encrypted keys. Like so: /usr/bin/ssh-keygen -b 1024 -f /etc/ssh/ssh_host_key -N But there is no "ssh" binary listed in either the kpackage list, or in "/usr/bin". Typing man ssh did not evoke anything, either. > Boy, do _YOU_ need to read the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard. > No, binaries never ever go in /etc. That tree is for > configuration files. Of course they don't. I spaced out over my confusion re. trying to install this program. > Zeke, if you're going to configure users' systems for them and fulfill > the role of sysadmin, you _must_ study Unix and learn its internal > logic. You simply must. Otherwise, your whole scheme for configuration > and user support fails at its central point. No problem...that is what I'm doing. No way am I trying to install secure shell on a client's system at this time. I am doing this for my own education, first. The clients now using Linux, are only using it to browse the Internet, compose e-mail, and do simple word processing. > I'm telling you, and I know this is awfully blunt: Stop wasting your > time with Que books. Learn how this stuff works, so you can do your > clients justice. I only have one Que book...but no Linux book I have, discusses installing and running secure shell (including "Running Linux") > The FHS document's current version (2.1) can be found at > http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/ , but only in PDF format. Okay, I have it now. Thanks for taking the trouble to track down these files; I appreciate it. I will enjoy reading this file-hierarchy document tonight. > By the way, if you need access to SSH clients for _any_ platform, I > maintain the most comprehensive list anywhere in the world that I > (and the SSH mailing list) know of: > > http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/security/ssh-clients That sure is complete! Thanks again for having such patience and excellent advice for this newbie, Rick. Let's see how I manage with installing open-ssh this time around. Stayed tuned for the results, some time tomorrow. ===== Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Thu Jul 20 23:46:47 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000721064647.1671.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > begin dgjs at acm.org quotation: > > > Forget the RPMs. > > That's what I would do, too. But _at least_ he needs to use the correct > RPMs, rather than ones for the wrong distribution. Keeping this in mind, I'll at least try to install these *correct RPMs. ===== Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Thu Jul 20 23:55:44 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000721065544.19699.qmail@web5505.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: >http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.securityportal.com/lskb/ >articles/kb10000035.html+OpenSSH+installation&hl=en > Perhaps more useful: > http://www.openssh.com/install.html > > Also: > http://www.cedarlug.org/presentations/4-11-2000-miller-clear-text/ > text9.htm > http://violet.ibs.com.au/openssh/files/INSTALL > http://www.securityportal.com/research/ssh-part2.html Great! I've downloaded/bookmarked these pages. Such a fuss over one utility! ===== Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Thu Jul 20 23:49:05 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000721064905.12931.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Schoolcraft wrote: > The Mandrake version offers (offsite) "Crypto Packages" during the > installation and I had the openssh-* packages fail during the > installations also. And this was the latest Mandrake-7.1 (boxed set) > flavor. I see. Well, forewarned is forearmed. I just got a CD of 7.1, which I plan to upgrade from 6.1. Let's see how it goes! (Hopefully, an "update" will work, rather than "install"...but don't worry...all my data is backed up. ===== Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Fri Jul 21 00:05:10 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000721070510.3882.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christopher Sullivan wrote: > It's not even always a good idea to install an RPM from [insert your > least favorite rpm using distribution here] on a Debian system > through alien. I look forward to the time when I can look back at that sentence, and grasp it's full meaning. :) > Give Zeke a little bit of credit. He's at least trying to learn. Consider me a beta-test for future newbies. I intend (eventually) to be an intermediary--a bridge if you will--between raw newbies and seasoned wizards...in order to ease some of the burden from those advanced users willing to explain the bare Linux/Unix essentials, which can indeed be quite tiresome. ===== Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jul 21 02:12:56 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 02:12:56 -0700 Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh In-Reply-To: <20000721064211.2161.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Thu, Jul 20, 2000 at 11:42:11PM -0700 References: <20000721064211.2161.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000721021256.C15395@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > I had *no idea. I was led to believe that Mandrake was totally > compatible with RPM installations. I have *not come across any such > warning in the several Linux books I have finished reading. Thanks for > the warning, I appreciate this. Yeah, there's a _lot_ of crucial facts omitted from those Linux books. My favourite example of something always omitted is how to have a safety fallback boot image in your lilo configuration. This trick gets omitted because the books essentially give no thought to admins compiling their own kernels. Therefore, when, inevitably, admins get around to playing with new kernels (either ones they compile or pre-packaged ones), they get in trouble and end up with unbootable systems, because nobody's held their hands and said "Here: You'll want this trick in place, _because_ sooner or later you're going to want to play with replacement kernels, and you'll want a way to recover when (not "if") you paint yourself into a corner with a new kernel that doesn't successfully boot your system. Here's linuxmafia.com's /etc/lilo.conf: boot=/dev/sda root=/dev/sda2 install=/boot/boot.b map=/boot/map vga=normal delay=20 default=linux image=/boot/vmlinuz label=linux read-only image=/boot/vmlinuz-old label=linux-old read-only The first paragraph (label=linux), the default, is the one I use for any new, candidate kernels I _think_ ought to work, and would like to test. The second paragraph (label=linux-old) is used for a known-good kernel that I'll be able to boot, if the first paragraph's kernel turns out to be a dud. The two "image=" filenames are actually symlinks, which at any given time I point to the two kernel images in /boot that I want to use. This way, I never have to edit /etc/lilo.conf at all, just the symlinks in /boot. For that matter, /boot is on a partition I ordinarily don't even have mounted. I mount it temporarily, only when I need to update lilo's bootable information by running the lilo "compiler", /sbin/lilo. For lack of the above trick, large numbers of novice Linux sysadmins end up blowing away and reloading their systems in frustration, the first time they experiment with replacement kernels and have them fail to boot. > Okay, I FTP'd them all in one fell swoop...except those three large > Netscape files, as I'm already updated to version 4.73. The only advantage of the strong-crypto version is that it does 128-bit SSL. The regular version people tend to use is limited to 40 bits, at the behest of the USA spook community. > But according to the documentation, there is supposed to be an "ssh" > binary, as the secure-shell client. Ja. You should consider just removing the rpms using the package utility, since heavens knows what you have. > I only have one Que book...but no Linux book I have, discusses installing > and running secure shell (including "Running Linux") Quite right -- and a scandal that is, too. In light of which, I'm even more glad to have provided the URLs I did, earlier. You will also find links to some more good articles inside my ssh-clients file, referenced earlier. -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Jul 21 02:20:12 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 02:20:12 -0700 Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh In-Reply-To: <20000721070510.3882.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Fri, Jul 21, 2000 at 12:05:10AM -0700 References: <20000721070510.3882.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000721022011.D15395@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > --- Christopher Sullivan wrote: >> It's not even always a good idea to install an RPM from [insert your >> least favorite rpm using distribution here] on a Debian system >> through alien. > > I look forward to the time when I can look back at that sentence, and > grasp its full meaning. :) "alien" is a utility my friend Joey Hess wrote, to kludge non-Debian packages into installing as well as they can be made to, onto a Debian system. It handles rpm and Stampede package formats, to the best of my recollection, perhaps more. (Can't recall -- Slackware?) Christopher's point is that doing that trick is at best sub-optimal, and should be avoided if possible. Most of the time, new Debian admins fall back upon "alien" strictly out of pure ignorance of what's available as native packages: The current main Debian branch, Debian 2.2 ("potato") contains some 4,200 packages. Personally, long before I would install an rpm using "alien" onto one of my Debian boxes, I would disassemble the rpm using rpm2cpio (http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/utilities-general/rpm2cpio) inside my /tmp tree, and then manually put the contents under /usr/local. Much less possibility of system damage, and much better admin control, that way. (I didn't write rpm2cpio, but the version on my site has been extensively commented by yrs. truly, to make its mode of operation more obvious.) -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From zk_lists at yahoo.com Tue Jul 25 01:42:41 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000725084241.6250.qmail@web5501.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > Christopher's point is that doing that trick is at best sub-optimal, and > should be avoided if possible. Thanks for the warning! As a Linux newbie, I intend to be a "purist" with each distribution...rather than muck with awkward, makeshift methods. When in Debian, do as the Debians do... > Personally, long before I would install an rpm using "alien" onto one of > my Debian boxes, I would disassemble the rpm using rpm2cpio > (http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/utilities-general/rpm2cpio) inside my > /tmp tree, and then manually put the contents under /usr/local. Much > less possibility of system damage, and much better admin control, that > way. Well, thanks for your excellent advice. It's really quite a big sea I jumped into...but my head remains above water for the nonce, albeit somewhat disoriented. Such is any new dimension. ===== Zeke Krahlin zk_lists at yahoo.com --- Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Tue Jul 25 01:47:33 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000725084733.6040.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com> (Rick, I accidentally sent you my last message,to your private mailbox. Please forward it to our list. Sorry!) --- Rick Moen wrote: > Quite right -- and a scandal that is, too. In light of which, I'm even > more glad to have provided the URLs I did, earlier. You will also find > links to some more good articles inside my ssh-clients file, referenced > earlier. I have a better grasp now, of the file system hierarchy...but I still can't figure out how "/etc" got its name. All the others I now understand: "/var" means "variable", "/bin" means "binaries", "/home" for users' location, etc. Since "/etc" stores configuration files, perhaps the "c" mean "configuration", but I sure as heck don't know! So, I have applied the security instructions in "Building a Secure Gateway, part II", by Chris Stoddard. However, there are glitches...most likely due to my own newbie ignorance. Here they are: =====glitch 1: Under the section "SUID Programs", when I run this command: ls -alF `find / -perm -4000` > /root/suid.txt I get a failed result: Try 'ls --help' for more information. I even tried the command with spaces closed after the first apostraphe, like so: ls -alF `find/-perm-4000`>/root/suid.txt But then I get this error: ls: find/-perm-4000: No such file or directory. The file "suid.txt" is created, but it is empty, so I get no list of SUID programs. So I just went ahead and ran "chmod a-s" on the files he listed inthat section: /usr/bin/chage, /usr/bin/gpasswd, /usr/bin/wall, /usr/bin/chfn, /usr/bin/chsh, /usr/bin/newgrp, /usr/bin/write, /usr/sbin/usernetctl, /usr/sbin/traceroute, /bin/mount, /bin/umount, /bin/ping, and /sbin/netreport. =====glitch 2: After making all the changes laid out in his essay, I reboot (using the reboot option in the KDE log-out box), only to get this screen report: ---begin screen report: System: '/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/xkbcomp -w 1 -R/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb -xkm -m us -em1 "The XKEYBOARD keymap compiler (xkbcomp) reports:" -emp "> " -eml "Errors from xkbcomp are not fatal to the X server" keymap/xfree86 compiled/xfree86.xkm' : command not found : command not found : command not found ' not found: ` ' not found: ` : command not found : command not found : command not found : command not found : command not found ' not found: ` ' not found: ` : command not found : command not found System: '/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/xkbcomp -w 1 -R/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb -xkm -m us -em1 "The XKEYBOARD keymap compiler (xkbcomp) reports:" -emp "> " -eml "Errors from xkbcomp are not fatal to the X server" keymap/xfree86 compiled/xfree86.xkm' INIT: Switching to runlevel: 6 INIT: Sending processes the TERM signal INIT: cannot execute "/etc/rc.d/rc" INIT: no more processes left in this runlevel ---end screen report So since I can't shutdown or reboot in any safe manner, I must do a cold reboot, which then forces "fsck" next time I log on: /dev/hda6 was not cleanly unmounted, check forced. Now, logging off again, I get this screen report: ---begin 2nd screen report: ' not found: ` : command not found : command not found AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:11 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host Xlib: connection to ":0.0" refused by server Xlib: Client is not authorized to connect to Server xsetroot: unable to open display ':0' AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:11 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:11 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:11 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:13 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:14 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:14 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:14 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:15 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:15 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host System: `/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb/xkbcomp -w 1 -R/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb -xkm -m us from xkbcomp are not fatal to the X server" keymap/xfree86 compiled/xfree86.xkm' AUDIT: Tue Jul 25 01:07:17 2000: 122 X: client 2 rejected from local host INIT: Switching to runlevel: 6 INIT: Sending processes the TERM signal INIT: cannot execute "/etc/rc.d/rc" INIT: no more processes left in this runlevel ---end 2nd screen report So, judging by phrase "Client is not authorized", I must have somehow locked myself out of the system. I'll need to retrace my steps, and see what's up with this. =======glitch 3: Also, now I can't log on as a user, just as root. When I ltry to log on as user, I am just brought back to the log-in screen. This is *not the same as logging in with an unrecognzed name or password, as the log-in box does not gray-out like it usually does in such a situation. It just reloads the log-in screen. BTW, I have only one user account on my system. So, I am posting to you via Windoze, rather than expose myself as root, on the Internet. ===== Zeke Krahlin zk_lists at yahoo.com --- Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Tue Jul 25 10:25:00 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:25:00 -0700 Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh In-Reply-To: <20000725084733.6040.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:47:33AM -0700 References: <20000725084733.6040.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000725102500.D17570@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > I have a better grasp now, of the file system hierarchy...but I still > can't figure out how "/etc" got its name. Well, I can't, either. It's one of the Mysteries. > So, I have applied the security instructions in "Building a Secure > Gateway, part II", by Chris Stoddard. But you aren't providing the URL. I don't go around with these things in my head, you know. OK, right: I re-found it via the search engine at LinuxToday. http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue55/stoddard.html > Under the section "SUID Programs", when I run this command: > > ls -alF `find / -perm -4000` > /root/suid.txt > > I get a failed result: > > Try 'ls --help' for more information. Possibly, you're using the wrong quote character? I see nothing wrong with the syntax as quoted. > After making all the changes laid out in his essay, I reboot (using the > reboot option in the KDE log-out box), only to get this screen report: Unfortunately, adding security to a laxily-designed system not only is inconvenient but also tends to break things. I hope you kept a good record of what you did, so you can reverse some or all of it until you can determine what in your (Mandrake?) distribution depends on bad security settings. It might very well be some binary your system is designed to have SUID root. > Also, now I can't log on as a user, just as root. Same comments apply. -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From rick at linuxmafia.com Tue Jul 25 10:26:21 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:26:21 -0700 Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000725102621.E17570@linuxmafia.com> I believe this is the mail you wanted me to forward to the list. (You may want to keep a copy of your sent mail. Then, you can fix situations like this.) ----- Forwarded message from Zeke Krahlin ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:42:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Zeke Krahlin Subject: Re: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh To: Rick Moen --- Rick Moen wrote: > Yeah, there's a _lot_ of crucial facts omitted from those Linux books. > My favourite example of something always omitted is how to have a safety > fallback boot image in your lilo configuration. Thanks! I am keeping this tidbit for examination later this week. Compiling the kernel is something I should soon learn to do. > > Okay, I FTP'd them all in one fell swoop...except those three large > > Netscape files, as I'm already updated to version 4.73. > > The only advantage of the strong-crypto version is that it does 128-bit > SSL. The regular version people tend to use is limited to 40 bits, at > the behest of the USA spook community. Oh, well, I can download the strong-crpto versions...I didn't realize the diff. > > But according to the documentation, there is supposed to be an "ssh" > > binary, as the secure-shell client. > > Ja. You should consider just removing the rpms using the package > utility, since heavens knows what you have. Done. > Quite right -- and a scandal that is, too. In light of which, I'm even > more glad to have provided the URLs I did, earlier. You will also find > links to some more good articles inside my ssh-clients file, referenced > earlier. Okay, thanks again for the excellent resources...not all of which I've gone through, yet. I need to fight for the time to study Linux. ===== Zeke Krahlin zk_lists at yahoo.com --- Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----- End forwarded message ----- From rick at linuxmafia.com Tue Jul 25 10:27:07 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:27:07 -0700 Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000725102707.F17570@linuxmafia.com> Or maybe this is the private mail you wanted me to forward back to the list? ----- Forwarded message from Zeke Krahlin ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:34:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Zeke Krahlin Subject: Re: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh To: Rick Moen --- Rick Moen wrote: > Christopher's point is that doing that trick is at best sub-optimal, and > should be avoided if possible. Thanks for the warning! As a Linux newbie, I intend to be a "purist" with each distribution...rather than muck with awkward, makeshift methods. When in Debian, do as the Debians do... > Personally, long before I would install an rpm using "alien" onto one of > my Debian boxes, I would disassemble the rpm using rpm2cpio > (http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/utilities-general/rpm2cpio) inside my > /tmp tree, and then manually put the contents under /usr/local. Much > less possibility of system damage, and much better admin control, that > way. Well, thanks for your excellent advice. It's really quite a big sea I jumped into...but my head remains above water for the nonce, albeit somewhat disoriented. Such is any new dimension. ===== Zeke Krahlin zk_lists at yahoo.com --- Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----- End forwarded message ----- From zk_lists at yahoo.com Tue Jul 25 15:30:07 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000725223007.16875.qmail@web5502.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > > > I have a better grasp now, of the file system hierarchy...but I still > > can't figure out how "/etc" got its name. > > Well, I can't, either. It's one of the Mysteries. :) > > So, I have applied the security instructions in "Building a Secure > > Gateway, part II", by Chris Stoddard. > > But you aren't providing the URL. I don't go around with these things > in my head, you know. My apologies. I'll remember to include URL's in future. > Possibly, you're using the wrong quote character? I see nothing wrong > with the syntax as quoted. Okay, I'll try some variations. > Unfortunately, adding security to a laxily-designed system not only is > inconvenient but also tends to break things. I hope you kept a good > record of what you did, so you can reverse some or all of it until you > can determine what in your (Mandrake?) distribution depends on bad > security settings. I can "un-do" everything, as I have recorded all changes. > It might very well be some binary your system is designed to have SUID > root. Once I get an actual list of all SUID binaries, I may be able to get this method of security working. But *that sounds like a very reasonable evaluation. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From zk_lists at yahoo.com Wed Jul 26 00:24:28 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems installing open-ssh Message-ID: <20000726072428.21802.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com> Okay, I have resolved the recent glitches, thanks to your suggestions, Rick. Read on: --- Rick Moen wrote: >> Under the section "SUID Programs", when I run this command: >> >> ls -alF `find / -perm -4000` > /root/suid.txt >> >> I get a failed result: >> >> Try 'ls --help' for more information. >Possibly, you're using the wrong quote character? I see nothing >wrong with the syntax as quoted. Turns out this single quote mark was really the accent character...the one usually on the same key with the tilde (in upper left corner right below the [esc] key). That did the trick, and I got the following list in "suid.txt": ---begin suid.txt: -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 19708 Aug 29 1999 /bin/login* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 14888 Aug 15 1999 /bin/su* ---s--s--x 1 lists lists 24512 Aug 17 1999 /etc/smrsh/list* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 12476 Sep 15 1999 /sbin/cardctl* -r-sr-xr-x 1 root root 11432 Jul 7 1999 /sbin/pwdb_chkpwd* -rws--x--x 1 root root 5128 Sep 6 1999 /usr/X11R6/bin/Xwrapper* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 795 Aug 12 1999 /usr/X11R6/bin/imwheel-solo* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 33004 Jun 22 1999 /usr/bin/at* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 27336 May 1 1999 /usr/bin/crontab* -r-sr-sr-x 1 uucp uucp 127396 Aug 17 1999 /usr/bin/cu* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 4998 Aug 8 1999 /usr/bin/disable-paste* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 901480 Jul 14 1999 /usr/bin/dos* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 5264 Sep 16 1999 /usr/bin/konsole_grantpty* -rwsr-sr-x 1 root root 481876 Sep 13 1999 /usr/bin/kppp* -r-sr-sr-x 1 root lp 15664 Jul 20 1999 /usr/bin/lpq* -r-sr-sr-x 1 root lp 15496 Jul 20 1999 /usr/bin/lpr* -r-sr-sr-x 1 root lp 16124 Jul 20 1999 /usr/bin/lprm* -r-sr-xr-x 1 root bin 58306 Apr 12 1999 /usr/bin/passwd* -rwsr-sr-x 1 root mail 68808 Apr 12 1999 /usr/bin/procmail* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 14672 May 2 1999 /usr/bin/rcp* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 10448 May 2 1999 /usr/bin/rlogin* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 7776 May 2 1999 /usr/bin/rsh* -rws--x--x 2 root root 525828 Jul 12 1999 /usr/bin/sperl5.00503* -rws--x--x 2 root root 525828 Jul 12 1999 /usr/bin/suidperl* -r-sr-xr-x 1 uucp uucp 91900 Aug 17 1999 /usr/bin/uucp* -r-sr-sr-x 1 uucp uucp 38412 Aug 17 1999 /usr/bin/uuname* -r-sr-xr-x 1 uucp uucp 100212 Aug 17 1999 /usr/bin/uustat* -r-sr-xr-x 1 uucp uucp 92348 Aug 17 1999 /usr/bin/uux* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 13756 May 18 1999 /usr/bin/vboxbeep* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 14788 May 18 1999 /usr/bin/xmonisdn* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 9295 Sep 9 1999 /usr/libexec/pt_chown* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 8840 Aug 21 1999 /usr/sbin/gnome-pty-helper* -rwsr-sr-x 1 root root 324380 Jul 8 1999 /usr/sbin/sendmail* -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 10084 May 5 1999 /usr/sbin/userhelper* -r-sr-sr-x 1 uucp uucp 224432 Aug 17 1999 /usr/sbin/uucico* -r-sr-sr-x 1 uucp uucp 102156 Aug 17 1999 /usr/sbin/uuxqt* ---end suid.txt So I edited this list to create a little script to run "chmod a-s" on each of the files in this list. Then I made the list executable, and ran it. Wallah! But when I tried to run kppp to dial out, I was informed it does not have SUID capability. So I did a "chmod a+s /usr/bin/kppp", and all was okay again. >> After making all the changes laid out in his essay, I reboot (using the >> reboot option in the KDE log-out box), only to get this screen report: >Unfortunately, adding security to a laxily-designed system not only is >inconvenient but also tends to break things. I hope you kept a good >record of what you did, so you can reverse some or all of it until you >can determine what in your (Mandrake?) distribution depends on bad >security settings. >It might very well be some binary your system is designed to have SUID >root. Since the screen halted after this error line: INIT: cannot execute "/etc/rc.d/rc" I figure that maybe file "rc" was supposed to be executable. Though no instructions for securing this file were mentioned, perhaps I had done a "chmod -x" on this file inadvertantly. (I might have confused that file for "rc.local", which was intentionally tampered with.) So I ran "chmod +x /etc/rc.d/rc", and now, the system shuts down and reboots correctly...no more annoying "fsck" each time I boot up. I discovered that, after securing my system a la Chris Stoddard, , that I no longer can run as super user, while regular user. But this is easily overcome by switching to another console, and logging in as root. But doesn't this make me vulnerable again, as long as I have a console running in root, while connected to the Internet (or any network)? So I should only do this while not connected, eh? (Oh, I am so clever!) Now, I still need to further secure my ports, as testing them on Shields-UP! site, , revealed them to all be closed. Which is very good, but not good enough. Ideally, the ports should all list as "stealth". So I continue my studies, very happy to have gotten through step one of Security 101...with much thanks to your direction. And now, to procede once more with this ssh thingie, now that I have downloaded the correct files. Stay tuned! ===== Zeke Krahlin zk_lists at yahoo.com --- Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail ? Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From danjka at mail.ru Wed Jul 26 05:16:24 2000 From: danjka at mail.ru (Alex Hobotov) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:16:24 +0400 Subject: [buug] Diskless boot Message-ID: Gentlemen, I have a problem with booting freeBSD box from freeBSD server. Server: freeBSD 4.0. Boot tool: Etherboot 4.6.1. Client: diskless 486 with NE2000 compatible card. History: 1. Compiled Etherboot with ELF freeBSD support. 2. Made ne.com. 3. Made client kernel with BOOTP_... support. 4. Start client: server found, IP received, ... ok. Found kernel (ELF/FreeBSD). Problem: error message "segment exceeds memory". ?: mknbi is or not needed for freeBSD client kernel? ?: How can I solve the problem? What's wrong? Please, help. Best regards, Alex From zk_lists at yahoo.com Mon Jul 31 00:21:07 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Using "cp" to backup/clone Message-ID: <20000731072107.15552.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> I have come up with a simple backup routine, where everything under "/home" is copied to a vfat partition, like so: cp -Rpuv /home /mnt/hda1/Linux However, I want to *clone the /home folder, not just copy. it. What I mean by "clone" is this: "Copy any new or changed files from the source to the destination, and remove any files from destination which no longer exist in source. Otherwise, don't copy any files that haven't been altered." Any idea what additional option or method I could use? TIA ===== Zeke Krahlin zk_lists at yahoo.com --- Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 31 00:35:37 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:35:37 -0700 Subject: [buug] Using "cp" to backup/clone In-Reply-To: <20000731072107.15552.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 12:21:07AM -0700 References: <20000731072107.15552.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000731003537.G316@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > However, I want to *clone the /home folder, not just copy. it. What I > mean by "clone" is this: "Copy any new or changed files from the source to > the destination, and remove any files from destination which no longer > exist in source. Otherwise, don't copy any files that haven't been > altered." Use rsync. http://rsync.samba.org/ Fabulous tool; you'll love it. -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list From zk_lists at yahoo.com Mon Jul 31 02:58:56 2000 From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 02:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Using "cp" to backup/clone Message-ID: <20000731095856.4380.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Moen wrote: > begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > > > However, I want to *clone the /home folder, not just copy. it. > Use rsync. http://rsync.samba.org/ Fabulous tool; you'll love it. Way to go; thanks Rick! I figured there's already some utility out there for this, but I'm so newbie, I didn't even know where to look for it. (It is also very satisfying to create aliases and scripts, from the basic Linux commands I'm studying). ===== Zeke Krahlin zk_lists at yahoo.com --- Linux: the people's OS. A billion communists can't be wrong! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Jul 31 08:20:41 2000 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:20:41 -0700 Subject: [buug] Using "cp" to backup/clone In-Reply-To: <20000731095856.4380.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com>; from zk_lists@yahoo.com on Mon, Jul 31, 2000 at 02:58:56AM -0700 References: <20000731095856.4380.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000731082041.A9119@linuxmafia.com> begin Zeke Krahlin quotation: > Way to go; thanks Rick! I figured there's already some utility out > there for this, but I'm so newbie, I didn't even know where to look > for it. (It is also very satisfying to create aliases and scripts, > from the basic Linux commands I'm studying). My standard list of the sysadmin's secret weapons: sudo screen rsync kibitz cvs find netcat enscript If you play with those for a while, you'll find that they have hidden virtues and become incredibly useful after a while, such that you'll wonder what you did without them. (Some take a while to warm to. You'll get lost in the manpage for GNU "find", for example.) -- Cheers, "Open your present...." Rick Moen "No, you open your present...." rick (at) linuxmafia.com Kaczinski Christmas. -- Unabomber Haiku Contest, CyberLaw mailing list