From jammer  Mon Mar  6 18:22:44 2000
From: jammer (Jon McClintock)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:22:44 -0800
Subject: [buug] Fwd: TonStanco@aol.com: open source article
Message-ID: <20000306182244.C8308@weak.org>

----- Forwarded message from TonStanco at aol.com -----

From: TonStanco at aol.com
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:10:24 EST
To: buug-admin at weak.org
Subject: [Buug-admin] open source article

Hi,

I write an Internet Business Law column for Internet.com's Boardwatch 
magazine <www.boardwatch.com>. I'm writing a series of articles on open 
source and I'd like to get community feedback for my next article dealing 
with the question below. Can you post this or email your group members? If 
they want to respond or comment they can do so by emailing me at 
<tonstanco at aol.com>. I'll review responses until March 31, 2000, the deadline 
for the article.


QUESTION:

I believe that Open Source is a very important freedom movement, because, 
like Harvard's Professor Lessig says, code is law, but with a non-human 
police force. With closed code, we'll all be prisoners in the very near 
future. So I believe that code MUST be open.

But can anyone tell me why software can't be both open and sold like Windows? 
Why is it that software has to be basically given away if it's open? I'm not 
sure that anyone in Open Source has ever answered  this question. It just 
seems to be assumed without any critical analysis. Why can't Open Source 
developers get a royalty percentage of the sale price just like writers, 
recording artists or movie actors, and the product sold just like Windows is 
through traditional channels, so that the developers get paid for their work?

Thanks and best regards,

Tony Stanco


_______________________________________________
Buug-admin mailing list
Buug-admin at weak.org
http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug-admin

----- End forwarded message -----



From ezekielk at iname.com  Tue Mar  7 03:40:41 2000
From: ezekielk at iname.com (ezekielk at iname.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 06:40:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [buug] Excellent Newbie Linux Site
Message-ID: <000307064041BZ.04743@weba6.iname.net>

I have found this site that is focused on new 
Linux users:

     http://www.control-escape.com/

It gets down to the nitty-gritty in plain English, 
tells you what you should do first after 
installing Linux, and gives you all the 
basic information a newbie needs to know. I am 
very impressed with this site, and am avidly reading 
its many very digestible documents.


---
FreeISP Cubs BBS & Chat
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
---
Berkeley Unix User Group
http://www.weak.org/buug/
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
--------------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://netscape.iname.com



From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Mar  7 09:42:18 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 09:42:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] open source article
In-Reply-To: <c5.296e2df.25f5bf10@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000307003357.18868A-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>

I'm forwarding this to the main BUUG mailing list, as it is of general
interest to the group.  

On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 TonStanco at aol.com wrote:

> QUESTION:
> 
> I believe that Open Source is a very important freedom movement, because, 
> like Harvard's Professor Lessig says, code is law, but with a non-human 
> police force. With closed code, we'll all be prisoners in the very near 
> future. So I believe that code MUST be open.

I slightly disagree here.  SHOULD be open.  MUST implies force (ie. by law
or other forceful means), and I believe that it is the software
developers' ultimate choice on which model they follow.  I do believe that
closed source software is, however, doomed to eventual failure.

> But can anyone tell me why software can't be both open and sold like Windows? 

I think you are confusing terms here.  Open != free.  Necessarily, that
is.  And your statement is a bit like saying, "must all colors be black or
white?"  There are many shades of grey between "open source" and
Microsoft, and a bunch of colors, too.

> Why is it that software has to be basically given away if it's open? I'm not 

It dosen't.  RedHat (and others) charge for their compilation of Linux,
and yet it is still "open."  They seem to be making lots of money selling
software that they also "give away." 

> sure that anyone in Open Source has ever answered  this question. It just 
> seems to be assumed without any critical analysis. Why can't Open Source 

You are incorrect here.  Many in the Open Source movement have answered
this question many times.

> developers get a royalty percentage of the sale price just like writers, 
> recording artists or movie actors, and the product sold just like Windows is 
> through traditional channels, so that the developers get paid for their work?

Linus Torvalds gets paid for his work.  Just not in the way you think.

Okay, I'll stop with the snide statements and answer the question that
I believe you are asking, which is slightly different than the direction
you are going, methinks.

The biggest problem with this is your assumption that the only way for
developers to be paid fairly is with direct compensation for services
performed.  This shows that you probably didn't do your homework right.
Thinking in a "Money Paid for Services Rendered" mentality is the first
paradigm that Open Source breaks, and it actually goes a long way to
"fixing" what is, in many people's view, a broken view of how one goes
about paying for software.  I would argue that Microsoft dosen't pay their
developers "fairly": after all, Bill Gates wrote no actual code that is
currently in Windows 2000, yet he is the richest man in the company (er.. 
country, actually). That's not "fairly" by my definition. 

I'll back up a bit.  Linus Torvalds did not develop Linux to be rich.  He
developed Linux because it filled a "need".  Part of that "need" was
fulfilled by releasing the code onto the net as Open Source: because
others could work on portions of it that he did not have the time (or
energy... or even desire) to develop, Linus got what he wanted... a full,
working POSIX-compliant operating system that didn't suck (ie, wasn't
Minix).  Part of the reason Open Source software "works" so well is it is
designed to fit a particular need the programmer had at the time, not as a
get-rich-quick scheme.

But Linus' "need" was also (like many human beings his age) to finish his
education and land a job.  Linux met this need too:  he now works for
Transmeta, a company that is willing to pay him to spend part of his day
working on Linux (as well as his other responsibilities).

And that brings me to my point.  Many in the Open Source movement work at
companies that use or develop systems around these Open Source programs.
I, for example, work for a local UNIX consuntancy firm.  The firm I work
for has a number of Open Source developers on the payroll.  Apple, Sun,
etc. all employ a large quantity of Open Source developers, and most
grant the employee a large amount of latitude to work on their Open Source
projects on company time/equipment.  My company is no different: in fact,
one of my paid projects was to develop documentation that will probably
be released under the GPL license when it is completed.

Open Source isn't "free," at least in the "free beer" sense... it's free
in the "free speech" sense.  Open Source does cost money.  Sure, the
_CODE_ is out there at no cost, but that dosen't mean it won't cost you
any money to use it.  You are going to have to (at minimum) pay somebody
to run and/or implement it at some level. 

Open Source is an "honest" cost model.  You pay for what it costs you to
actually implement the software.  In most cases, the software was
originally developed because it filled some "need" somewhere.  It might
not fill your need exactly, so you hire a programmer to wonk it the
direction you need.. and those changes can (usually optionally, provided
you don't yourself sell the code) find it's way back into the source tree,
benefitting everyone.

Closed Source software is a dishonest cost model.  Not only do you have to
pay for the software, but most of the time, you'll need to pay to have an
implementor make it happen.  It's a bit like buying a car, and having to
pay for somebody to put it together after you've already spent $20,000 on
the car.  That's right?  I don't personally think so.  

Another point.  If you're question was, "How can a(n) Open Software
company make money?", I won't just handwave and say "well, RedHat is, so
what's your point."  It's a valid question, with a simple answer.

Have you ever seen where Microsoft makes a good percentage of their money?
It's called "support."  In fact, I'm inclined to say that that's the
biggest racket out there.  Make a crummy product, and charge people to fix
it when it breaks.  :)

But seriously, that's the answer.  Again, the _SOFTWARE_ is free, and if
you have the technical knowhow to make it work, so be it.  But the
majority of people out there (most of the human population) don't have a
clue about how computers work.  So, you recoup your development losses by
providing commercial support to those people.  Everything from the $15
manual, through $2/minute consumer grade support, to six-figure on-call
support contracts. This is why the RedHat model works.  The software is
just a platform to sell you additional goods and services.

Hell.  Microsoft and AOL have figured this out a long time ago.  Well, AOL
at least has... 

At one time, this was the way the computer industry operated.  The
operating system was something that came with the computer.  When I got
started in computers (in the late 1970's), the term "licensing" was
unheard of.  My computer came with CP/M, and when my CP/M disks went bad,
I just copied a buddy's and went on with my life.  Later, when I bought an
Atari ST computer, the OS was burned in to the ROMs of the machine.  I
understand that the 70's IBM mainframe market was similar: the OS was
part of the "support" contract you bought with IBM.

Support feeds the engine that makes Open Software work, just like in the
past the hardware fed it.

Pick up a copy of Eric Raymond's book, "The Cathedral and the Bazaar."  He
discusses some of these models in that book.  You might want to wander
over to slashdot.org: a lot of the above concepts have been argued ad
nauseum over there as well.  Lastly, you might want to stop by one of the
free software user groups (such as BALUG, the Bay Area Linux Users Group,
or the BAFUG group that we join for their meetings in Berkeley) to see
this dynamic in action.

Hope that answers your questions, and I welcome further comments /
questions.

-Chris Sullivan
System Administrator





From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Mar  7 10:54:26 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:54:26 -0800
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] open source article
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000307003357.18868A-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>; from feedle@feedle.net on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 09:42:18AM -0800
References: <c5.296e2df.25f5bf10@aol.com> <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000307003357.18868A-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <20000307105425.D9204@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

[_Snip_ Tom Stanco from distribution.]

Quoting Christopher Sullivan (feedle at feedle.net):

> You are incorrect here.  Many in the Open Source movement have answered
> this question many times.

Here is the crux of the matter:  _All_ of Stanco's questions have been
answered many times by _uncountable_ people in the Open Source movement.

I try not to be a bigot about AOL people and the like (however, please see my
X-headers), but there are times when you really have to wonder.  

I was meaning to get around to Stanco, but was going to wait until I was
in a _really_ good mood, so I could say something constructive -- e.g.,
that he should read Eric Raymond's essays, all of the excellent material
at http://www.opensource.org/, and O'Reilly & Associates's essay
collection, _Open Sources_.

> The biggest problem with this is your assumption that the only way for
> developers to be paid fairly is with direct compensation for services
> performed.  This shows that you probably didn't do your homework right.

And you have to wonder about somebody who wants the rest of the Net to 
not just do his fundamental research for him, but basically teach him
how to think.

Still, I doff my hat to you for trying.

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Mar  7 10:59:08 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:59:08 -0800
Subject: [buug] Excellent Newbie Linux Site
In-Reply-To: <000307064041BZ.04743@weba6.iname.net>; from ezekielk@iname.com on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 06:40:41AM -0500
References: <000307064041BZ.04743@weba6.iname.net>
Message-ID: <20000307105908.E9204@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting ezekielk at iname.com (ezekielk at iname.com):

> I have found this site that is focused on new 
> Linux users:
> 
>      http://www.control-escape.com/
> 
> It gets down to the nitty-gritty in plain English, 
> tells you what you should do first after 
> installing Linux, and gives you all the 
> basic information a newbie needs to know. I am 
> very impressed with this site, and am avidly reading 
> its many very digestible documents.

Hmm.  It suffers from Microsoft tunnel vision.  

You'll learn a lot more, more-useful things, and more quickly, from
reading Linux Gazette (http://www.linuxgazette.com/) the HOWTOs
at the Linux Documentation Project (http://www.linuxdoc.org/), and
good tutorial books like Matt Welsh's _Running Linux_.

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Mar  7 11:58:08 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:58:08 -0800
Subject: [buug] Linux Security Site
In-Reply-To: <200002171030.CAA22766@weak.org>; from ezekielk@iname.com on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 11:19:28PM -0800
References: <200002171030.CAA22766@weak.org>
Message-ID: <20000307115807.G9204@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at iname.com):
> Hi Rick Moen, you wrote on 2/16/2000 8:59:57 PM:
> 
>> I don't think Linux is a good option for such people.  They will
>> inevitably evaluate Linux by how closely it approximates what they're
>> used to, while being blind to what it has that they've never seen.
> 
> I don't find that to always be the case. I have five clients who
> already took my advice to drop AOL, and go for one of the local
> services for a lot less cost (and some even chose a free service).
> They are all glad they did so. Any client who would not consider
> taking the brave leap from AOL to a generic ISP, I do not bother to
> offer any other PC alternatives (like Linux).

OK, so they're at least a little bit enterprising.  This helps a great
deal.  

In fact, it's the essential ingredient.  Otherwise, you run into the
"What do you mean it won't run my copy of Quicken?" syndrome.  Such
people are not worth the trouble.

Let me be clear about this:  It's _eminently_ possible to set up Linux
as a preconfigured desktop box that meets people's needs.  In fact, it's
better at that than just about anything else, because it _stays_
configured, once set up, and doesn't suffer (e.g.) Registry and DLL
bitrot.

I know this is the case, because I saw people off the street using Linux
workstations with no troubles whatsoever for four years at The
CoffeeNet (http://www.coffeenet.net/), which was my downstairs neighbour
in San Francisco. 

However, if you pitch it as an MS Windows replacement, it will be
evaluated on those terms and found wanting.  So, as the old joke goes,
don't do that, then.  Promote Linux in a way that highlights its
strengths.

It just happens that many of the things that are distinctively good
about Linux have to do with networking and long-lived processe.  When
you set up dual-booting, you are crippling Linux in both of those areas.

>>You can get non-graphical access from MS Windows to your Linux box
>>using telnet or ssh (latter preferred -- see
>>http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/security/ssh-clients).  
> 
> Thanx. I've downloaded puTTY. But It seems repugnant to use Windoze to
> access Linux.  Are there methods to accomplish same via DOS? (If so,
> would it be only non-graphics?)

Your wording in the latter part (would it be only non-graphics) suggests 
that we must be having some sort of severe misunderstanding.

Why ssh into a Linux box from MS Windows?  Because it's necessary at 
various times, and telnet is no longer acceptable for security reasons.
The point is to _generally_ wean people off of relying on telnet.  It's
obsolete, now that no-cost ssh 1.x clients are available for all OS
platforms (and ssh 1.x servers for three platforms):

http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/security/ssh-clients

> The VNC site is not accessible...but maybe it's just temporary downtime. 

It was.

> But why would this method of accessing the Linux box be more
> practical, than using a split video cable, where I can run Linux
> directly...with no Windoze shell holding it all up? Is this method
> almost just as fast and robust as using Linux directly? 

I apparently was tired when I wrote my earlier message, since the real
win from VNC is not the configuration I described, but rather the
reverse:  The Win32 VNC server allows you to export Win32 programs'
graphical calls across a LAN to a VNC client.  Thus, you can have your
bloatware PIII Win32 box running "headless" (no monitor) and exporting
its graphics over VNC, and your cheapo Linux P90 running VNC client on
top of X, with the two machines connected using nothing more high-tech
than a $5 crossover cable and two $30 NetGear Tulip cards.

The point is that, then, your P90 Linux box will be able to run local
X and console Linux applications, and also run remote Win32 applications
right alongside them.  And the software to do this is free (in both
senses of the term).

This allows the user to slowly acculturate himself to Linux and X, while
at the same time having instant access to any desired Win32 application.

So, we won't hear "I want my Quicken back" any more.

It also gets people to understand that networks are a natural and
expected part of computing, so that they feel constrained when those are 
_not_ present, as they should.  Just as they should feel cheated if it's
not practical to leave their applications running and maintaining state
for months at a time.

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Mar  7 11:37:36 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:37:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [buug] Do you like Penguins?  :) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000307113555.25806D-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>

Talk about insulting our intelligence....

---------- Forwarded message ----------
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Received: from weak.org (IDENT:sendmail at localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by weak.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06657;
	Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:05:05 -0800 (PST)
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	id <F7K7HF8Y>; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:05:21 -0800
Message-ID: <077D765EB090D311A19800A0C9FC37862F7126 at EXCHANGE>
From: Tiffany Turner <TiffanyT at Unitek.com>
To: "'buug at weak.org'" <buug at weak.org>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:04:57 -0800

....

They use Microsoft Exchange!  Aaaaaack!  So much for a Linux friendly
site.

FYI: I am complaining to their upstream, PBI.  PBI has specific rules
against spamming, so I suspect that we'll get an apology, or they will go
away.

-Chris




From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Mar  7 11:52:02 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:52:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [buug] Do you like Penguins?  :) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000307115026.25806F-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>

This is a copy of the message I sent to our recent little "spammer."

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:49:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Christopher Sullivan <feedle at feedle.net>
To: carls at UNITEK.COM, Tiffany Turner <TiffanyT at Unitek.com>
Cc: abuse at pbi.net
Subject: Re: [buug] Do you like Penguins?  :)

The following message was transmitted to the buug at weak.org mailing list
today, 29 FEB.  This appears to be unsolicited commercial E-Mail (UCE, or
spam) delivered to our mailing list.  It is considered "bad form" to
submit such messages to a mailing list of any type, unless it is
specifically allowed.  We do not allow such messages.

Many in the BUUG community did not appreciate this.  It shows a lack of
respect for the Unix user community that we serve, and is a lousy way to
introduce your service to our community.  Had you E-Mailed our
administrative list, we would have been more than happy to have made an
announcement at one of our meetings, or have included information about
your site in a targetted mailing of our members (who specifically want to
get such messages).  However, E-mailing our general chatter list was not
appropriate.

Additionally, your upstream provider (Pacific Bell Internet) has specific
Terms of Service prohibiting the transmission of UCE in this fashion.
Based on the number of complaints I have already recieved from our
members, I am forwarding a copy of this complaint letter to them for
review.

We expect an apology to be E-Mailed to our admin list
(buug-admin at weak.org) posthaste, so we can forward this to our membership.
We also expect that you will refrain from using such tactics in the
future to promote your products.

Thank you for your time.

Christopher B. Sullivan
Co-Founder
Berkeley Unix Users Group (BUUG)

PS, and FYI: You also lost a lot of credibility by sending this message
using Microsoft Exchange.  Actually _USING_ Linux is a good start towards
gaining the support of our "community."  Otherwise, you're just playing
lip-service to it.

On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Tiffany Turner wrote:

-cut-




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Mar  7 12:41:19 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:41:19 -0800
Subject: [buug] Do you like Penguins?  :) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000307113555.25806D-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>; from feedle@feedle.net on Tue, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:37:36AM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000307113555.25806D-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <20000307124119.J9204@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Christopher Sullivan (feedle at feedle.net):

> Talk about insulting our intelligence....

I posted this in response to TiffanyT's original list post, but it
seems to have fallen into the bit bucket.

Quoting Tiffany Turner (TiffanyT at Unitek.com):

> Do you like Penguins? We are DestinationLinux.com [...]

Whoa!  Look at those META tags:

"Welcome to our site, we thank you for visiting, please pass it on and
lets grow this puppy, Linux, Support, Gallery, Release,
DestinationLinux, Application, Software, Handbook, FAQ, Tutorials, Bugs,
CVS, Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP, LINUX, APACHE, MYSQL, linux, apache,
mysql, php   CVSup, News, Commercial Vendors, Homepage, CTM, software,
hardware, support, help, information, resources, drivers, manual,
documentation project, FAQ, howto, Redhat, Slackware, Yggdrasil, Debian,
LinuxPro, OpenLinux, FTP, download, projects, application, usergroup,
user group, mailing list, kernel, GPL, shareware, unix, software,
freeware, shareware, gnu, themes, demos, kde, windowmaker, fvwm,
desktop, redhat, ratings, reviews, free, software, programs, news,
Utilities, Desktop, Games, Internet, Software, WindowMaker, tucows, x11,
daemon, manager, window, new, download, source, codeLinux Portal Site,
Rehat, products, commuity, chat, free email, System Administration, PHP,
LINUX, APACHE, MYSQL, Chat, email, freestuff, funstuff, kidsafe,
learning, education, guides, RedHat Software, slackware, jobs,
antionline.com, slashdot.net, andover.net, freshmeat.net, rufus.net,
kde.org, themes.org, linux.com,"

Somehow, you seem to have omitted "ZERO DAY GPL WAREZ".

Hope that helps!

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Wed Mar  8 12:40:21 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:40:21 -0800
Subject: [buug] Excellent Newbie Linux Site
Message-ID: <38C6BAB5.56EB8A3D@netzero.net>

Rick Moen said:

>Quoting ezekielk at iname.com (ezekielk at iname.com):

>> I have found this site that is focused on new 
>> Linux users:
>> 
>>      http://www.control-escape.com/

>Hmm.  It suffers from Microsoft tunnel vision.  

Since the author is writing specifically for Windoze users who
want to convert to Linux, I'd expect him to have such "tunnel
vision". Though I know where you're coming from, I believe this
author does a great job in providing the "missing link" for a
smoother transition from Windoze to Linux. When I say this site
is excellent for "Linux newbies"...I mean "newbies" as longterm
Windoze users...and I *don't mean newbies in any other way (such
as non-Windoze users taking their first Unix class). So, for
non-Windoze newbies, I don't recommend this site.

>You'll learn a lot more, more-useful things, and more quickly, from
>reading Linux Gazette (http://www.linuxgazette.com/) the HOWTOs
>at the Linux Documentation Project (http://www.linuxdoc.org/), and
>good tutorial books like Matt Welsh's _Running Linux_.

So far, I don't find that to be the case. As one who truly does
suffer from "Windoze tunnel vision", I have to say that the raw
HOWTOs and L. Gazette toss out masses of Linux data without any
real structure...nor do they (along with Welsh) cater to the
ex-Windoze crowd. You would have to spend a lot of time, just
tunneling through such quantities of data (L. Gazette archives
and HOWTOs), in order to find that one small bit information
needed to perform that next tiny step re. installing and
fine-tuning Linux. For each little necessary bit, you need to
repeat this time-wasting search. Not that _Running Linux_ is not
a valuable resource, but that it does not really provide this
missing Windoze-to-Linux link, either.

This "Control-Escape" site provides most answers to ease Windoze
users into Linux...better than any other resource I have so far
come across. And he does include all relevant HOWTO's...selecting
only the ones most urgently needed to get former Windoze users up
and running. It is this arrangement of important HOWTO's first,
that is missing from most other introductory Linux resources. I
have often searched through the HOWTO directory, with  no real
success in resolving many questions. For example: how to mount a
Macintosh disk. While the info is somewhere there, it was
impossible to find, even with a search routine. Linux remains
notoriously bad when it comes to organized and well-written HOWTO
documentation...at least, when it comes to fitting the needs of
newbies. And the several excellent books I pore over each day,
often do not have anywhere in their index, reference to the
topics I am asking about...and often it's nowhere in the book,
anyway.

I find Control-Escape to be one of *the answers for Windoze
converts to Linux. And a great introduction to Linux, that will
make resources like _Running Linux_ and the Linux Gazette, that
much more palatable and useable by such newbies.

I certainly do not question the quality of your recommendations,
Rick...Linux Gazette is now on our resources page. But when I
come across something that really "hits the spot" for
tunnel-vision newbies like me, I am ecstatic over such a
resource, which I *know will help other newbies, considering how
useful it's been for my own needs.

FYI: I am very happy to be running Linux as my default OS
now...using it 90% of the time. Control-Escape has been a major
aid to me, in this changeover...along with the handy security
tips provided by one of the members of my FreeNetCubs BBS. I'm
running Mandrake 6.1, waiting for the delivery of version 7.0.
Netscape 4.6 stinks on ice: always crashing the entire system
just like in Windoze...forcing a hard reboot, which is not so
nice for Linux. (I guess I could create two shells, so when
Netscape crashes I won't have to reboot...but this method is a
bit beyond my scope at this time.) Quite a few web sites require
certain abilities lacking in the KDE browser, and the other
altenative browsers...otherwise, I'd dump Netscape completely. In
fact, I had to accept defeat this time around, and exit Linux and
go back to Windoze, in order to use my browser, and compose this
message. (I'm using Netscape's own e-mail service.)

Learning "chmod" commands, which for some reason seems to work
arbitrarily. IOW: as root, I can run this command:

	chmod 777 *

in a directory, and get absolutely *no changes in permissions
(which did not allow writing or executing for all others, and no
execution for groups). Or "chmod 555 *", or whatever. Then, I can
try it again and again...and it will sometimes take. I know I
must be doing something wrong here...as it makes no sense that
Linux could arbitrarily decide that a chmod will work one moment,
and not another (with not a single error statement in any of the
chmod attempts)...even though I'm "root" or "superuser" all the
time, in the same shell session. Oh well: typical frustrations to
be expected as a newbie.


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From ezekielk at netzero.net  Wed Mar  8 14:00:25 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:00:25 -0800
Subject: [buug] Caveat Penguin!
Message-ID: <38C6CD79.9355BED0@netzero.net>

Just some comments on the inevitable creeping commercialism that
follows on the heels of growing Linux popularity.

I recently planned to purchase Mandrake Linux 7.0 from Linux
Central <http://www.linuxbookstore.com/>, but before filling out
their order form, I checked out the security (as I always do). My
browser said "security unknown"...so I did not place an order,
and e-mailed support that I never fill out forms that aren't
secure. Here is their silly reply (and my rebuttal):

---begin message from Linux Central

> The real problem here I think is perception.  
> Although the form is presented non secure.  
> All the data submitted will be secure.  There 
> is no added security by presenting the Name 
> & address form via secure mode.
> However, their may be peace of mind.
> So we have taken your issue into consideration 
> and ammended our order process.

The "real problem"? What a ridiculous thing to say. There is no
such thing as a secure page that cannot be proven to be secure,
by any modern browser. What do you think the browser's "Page
Info" command is all about? 
No page somehow *becomes secure when it is submitted. If it's not
secure before submission, it is not secure at all. Even if it
were, there is no assurance provided for the customer; thus it
boils down to the same thing as no security at all.

This is a disservice to your customers: assuring them--even
though their browser says your form is *not secure--that it
actually *is, and they have nothing to worry about. So, all their
data (credit card number, etc.) are completely vulnerable to
identity fraud and other mischief, thanks to your company's
carefree regard. 

You have certainly not corrected this problem, as I just returned
to your order form...and my browser still says "Security: Status
unknown" regarding that page.

If there is an issue of "perception" here, it is your perception
that I'm clueless.

---end message from Linux Central

So I placed my order with Cheapbytes.

I wonder how much longer before we see our cherished penguin in
24-carat solid gold pendants dangling from earrings and
necklaces, worn by so many "penguin lovers"? It's only a matter
of time, I fear, before this happens...along with bumper stickers
proclaiming: "I hack for Jesus". 

I'm just glad I'm on the good side of the PC community, before
the Information Wars really go ballistic! At that point, it'll be
"hack and cover", and maybe the penguins of Antarctica will be
the sole survivors when all this intelligent dust settles.

Maybe it's time for a logo of a penguin crucified! And a church
to wrap around it?   :b


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From ezekielk at netzero.net  Wed Mar  8 12:45:45 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:45:45 -0800
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] open source article
Message-ID: <38C6BBF9.193252DA@netzero.net>

Rick Moen said to Feedle:

> And you have to wonder about somebody who wants the rest of the Net to 
> not just do his fundamental research for him, but basically teach him
> how to think.

This is the *second poster who essentially expected others to
write their whole thesis for them. If I were as savvy as you (or
even 1/10 as much), I'd post a private reply to such folk, and
ask them what it's worth.  ;]


> -- 
> Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 

How-does-one-join-this-hypenation-society?
It-sounds-very-dashing.


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From ezekielk at netzero.net  Wed Mar  8 14:04:33 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:04:33 -0800
Subject: [buug] Linux Security Site
Message-ID: <38C6CE71.8A014FEA@netzero.net>

Rick Moen espoused:

> Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at iname.com):
>> I don't find that to always be the case. I have five clients who
>> already took my advice to drop AOL, and go for one of the local
>> services for a lot less cost (and some even chose a free service).
>> They are all glad they did so. Any client who would not consider
>> taking the brave leap from AOL to a generic ISP, I do not bother to
>> offer any other PC alternatives (like Linux).

> OK, so they're at least a little bit enterprising.  This helps a 
> great deal.  

Yeah, they have a sense of adventure, as well as do not have any
pressing need to keep Windoze on their system. One client does
play some Windoze games, but that's it. They all can do their
word-processing, note taking, bookkeeping, and web browsing in
Linux...and three of them now do...since I am finally able to
secure their Linux OS while connected. Also, while not
particularly computer-savvy, they have a strong political sense
that inspires them to boycott Micro$oft (with a little nudging
from yours truly).  ;)

Before I set them up for Internet browsing, they already were
running Linux for desktop needs. Now that I understand how to
tweak security, they can also browse via Linux. In fact, a strong
point I now realize, for using Linux; is that it is a lot more
secure for Internet activity, than Windoze. With the public being
so aware now, of all the imminent dangers lurking on the 'net for
Windoze systems...Linux's native security will become more and
more of a selling point...IMO. Even if PC users still prefer
Windoze for desktop use, they are now more likely to install
Linux just for their Web browsing (and other Internet activities
such as ftp, chat, and e-mail).

My current goal is to find/install all the necessary plug-ins, so
Linux can play Real Audio files, shockwave, etc.

> Let me be clear about this:  It's _eminently_ possible to set up Linux
> as a preconfigured desktop box that meets people's needs.  

I know that, and this is *exactly what I want to do for clients
and friends. I am very happy to be finally getting through this
learning-curve hump, so that I can assist others who want to use
Linux. The excellent resource, references, and advice--by
yourself and a few others--are proving indispensible in hastening
my learning process. Thanks immensely, for taking some of your
valuable time to bother popping my "Windoze tunnel vision"
bubble! This is very much like the way John Scott helped newbies
such as myself (when I was a DOS and BBS newbie). By the way, we
are in touch again, so thanks.

> However, if you pitch it as an MS Windows replacement, it will be
> evaluated on those terms and found wanting.  So, as the old joke goes,
> don't do that, then.  Promote Linux in a way that highlights its
> strengths.

I make it very clear to my clients, what to expect, and what not
to expect. But since they are mostly clueless in Windoze, still,
the transition to Linux is much simpler for them, than for those
who know how to use Windoze shortcuts, and run a lot of special
utilities to enhance their Windoze use. By their lack of
mastering Windoze, they are therefore *not so plugged into that
horrid OS, as to have to go through a serious UN-learning curve,
in their transition to Linux. This is good. Linux will actually
be easier for *them, than for *me.

> It just happens that many of the things that are distinctively good
> about Linux have to do with networking and long-lived processe.  When
> you set up dual-booting, you are crippling Linux in both of those areas.

Understood. But I must use dual-booting for my clients, who do
not want two PC's in their workspace. I still believe that
switching to Linux, even on a dual-boot, is better than just
running Windoze. As they grow more comfortable with Linux, I can
then get rid of Windoze entirely...except for that one client who
plays some Windoze games.

As for myself...once I master the basics of Linux, I will then
remove Windoze, and study further, the networking features of
Linux (as opposed to my present challenge to set up non-networked
desktops).

>> Thanx. I've downloaded puTTY. But It seems repugnant to use Windoze to
>> access Linux.  Are there methods to accomplish same via DOS? (If so,
>> would it be only non-graphics?)

> Your wording in the latter part (would it be only non-graphics) suggests 
> that we must be having some sort of severe misunderstanding.

My DOS/Windoze tunnel vision, obviously. :[

> Why ssh into a Linux box from MS Windows?  Because it's necessary at 
> various times, and telnet is no longer acceptable for security reasons.

I was hoping there'd be some sort of ssh for DOS, but I guess
not. Anything to avoid relying on Windoze is just fine with me. I
like the idea of a dual DOS/Linux system (no Windoze)...I do love
"abandonware", especially the older DOS games. So I guess there
is only telnet for DOS, no ssh. I used to connect to an ISP with
a Unix shell, using only my DOS OS...and remotely ran Pine and
other Unix Internet programs, like Lynx.

>> But why would this method of accessing the Linux box be more
>> practical, than using a split video cable, where I can run Linux
>> directly...with no Windoze shell holding it all up? Is this method
>> almost just as fast and robust as using Linux directly? 

>I apparently was tired when I wrote my earlier message, since the real
>win from VNC is not the configuration I described, but rather the
>reverse:  The Win32 VNC server allows you to export Win32 programs'
>graphical calls across a LAN to a VNC client.  

I see! Thanks for elucidating. I am saving your instructions, in
the event any client really wants to keep Windoze that badly.
What an elegant, and rather inexpensive solution. In fact, I'd
certainly like to have this set-up myself...for, sadly, I think
I'll need Windoze for considerably longer than I hoped. I have
certain peripherals that may eventually interface with
Linux...but not at this time. They are: my LS-120 Imation
SuperDrive (parallel, not USB), my Casio PDA PC-sync cradle
(serial, not USB), and Logitech scanner (parallel, not USB).
Also, some valuable Internet services require Windows, such as
dialpad.com's free long distance.

My goal then, is to have such a "headless" Windoze system for my
own use and enjoyment. "Off with his head!"...now *that's how I
like to use Windoze!   :D

> This allows the user to slowly acculturate himself to Linux and X, while
> at the same time having instant access to any desired Win32 application.

Before considering Linux for a client, I do question them
thoroughly about what Windoze programs he or she definitely
needs...and then if there is any acceptable equivalent in Linux.

> It also gets people to understand that networks are a natural and
> expected part of computing, so that they feel constrained when those are 
> _not_ present, as they should.  Just as they should feel cheated if it's
> not practical to leave their applications running and maintaining state
> for months at a time.

Thanx once more for your generous assistance, Rick. I feel very
lucky to be in touch with such knowledgable people. Our first
meeting at BAFUG was a great pleasure, BTW. Disappointed,
however, in not seeing you there.


__________________________________________
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http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Wed Mar  8 14:24:44 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:24:44 -0800
Subject: [Buug-admin] RE: [buug] Do you like Penguins?  :)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000307120427.25806G-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <38C6D32C.E1EE8841@netzero.net>

Christopher Sullivan wrote:

> I'll discuss this with the webmaster, to make sure that it is made clear
> what e-mail addresses should be used for what purposes on the website. 

Please note that on our home page, "buug at weak.org" is clearly
described as our e-mail list address. A little further down is
the link to send to "admin": "Questions or comments? Click here
to send a message." And scroll down just a bit more, and there is
an e-mail link to me, webmaster.

So it is quite obvious this "penguin lover" is not sincere about
her motives. She intentionally selected the list e-mail, even
though she had two other, more acceptable, choices.

Your original complaint was right on target in every way, as well
as your follow-up. Thanks for handling this, Feedle. I commend
you on such extremely well-written, concise, and elegant replies.


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From ezekielk at netzero.net  Wed Mar  8 14:29:33 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:29:33 -0800
Subject: [buug] Do you like Penguins?  :) (fwd)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000307113555.25806D-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com> <20000307124119.J9204@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <38C6D44D.8C7825C7@netzero.net>

Rick Moen wrote:
> Somehow, you seem to have omitted "ZERO DAY GPL WAREZ".

 :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Mar  8 18:58:14 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:58:14 -0800
Subject: [buug] Linux Security Site
In-Reply-To: <38C6CE71.8A014FEA@netzero.net>; from ezekielk@netzero.net on Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 02:04:33PM -0800
References: <38C6CE71.8A014FEA@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <20000308185813.A17754@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at netzero.net):
> Rick Moen espoused:

[Linux meets your desktop-user clients' needs]

>  Also, while not particularly computer-savvy, they have a strong
>  political sense that inspires them to boycott Micro$oft (with a
>  little nudging from yours truly).  ;)

People who feel obliged to "boycott Microsoft" have not yet liberated
themselves:  Liberation comes when you cease being annoyed with people
who are now largely irrelevant to your life.  Microsoft software is
something that sensible people discarded in the early 1990s, when the
GNU Project, Linux, and the BSDs emerged from their infancy and free
software achieved critical mass.

For reasons having to do with market-manipulation and inertia, you still
find Microsoft software preloaded on most new computers, but /sbin/fdisk
fixes that easily.  Aside from that, you still find their mice (and
keyboards) around, which are tolerable but not as good as Logitech's
and some others, for X.

But, since that 1980s company need not be important in people's lives,
in modern computing, there's hardly any call for "boycotting" them.
You don't have to boycott buggy whips, do you?

> My current goal is to find/install all the necessary plug-ins, so
> Linux can play Real Audio files, shockwave, etc.

http://vancouver-webpages.com/plugins/  is one place to start.
http://members.ping.at/theofilu/netscape.html  is getting too outdated.

>> However, if you pitch it as an MS Windows replacement, it will be
>> evaluated on those terms and found wanting.  So, as the old joke goes,
>> don't do that, then.  Promote Linux in a way that highlights its
>> strengths.
> 
> I make it very clear to my clients, what to expect, and what not
> to expect. But since they are mostly clueless in Windoze, still,
> the transition to Linux is much simpler for them, than for those
> who know how to use Windoze shortcuts, and run a lot of special
> utilities to enhance their Windoze use. By their lack of
> mastering Windoze, they are therefore *not so plugged into that
> horrid OS, as to have to go through a serious UN-learning curve,
> in their transition to Linux. This is good. Linux will actually
> be easier for *them, than for *me.

My point is that there's a Linux approach to computing.  Without that 
Linux approach, and with misapplication of the MS Windows mindset, 
users will tend to get _less_ satisfaction from Linux, rather than
more.

Two of the key points about Linux are (1) Processes are long-lived
(months at a time).  (2) You make extensive use of networks.

Using Linux with those two aspects compromised is like bicycling
without being allowed to use your feet.  It's crippling.

And dual-booting does exactly that.  Which is _bad_.  More than 
you know, obviously.  Which is why I'm harping on that point.

> Understood. But I must use dual-booting for my clients, who do
> not want two PC's in their workspace.

[Sigh.]

You are citing mental inertia, as if it were an unalterable fact.

Wrong.  Possibly, they don't want two _consoles_ (keyboard, mouse,
and monitor).  They _think_ this means they don't want two computers,
but that is an error they are making because of the way they were
trained to think.

> I was hoping there'd be some sort of ssh for DOS, but I guess
> not.

Nope.  However, you can run an entire, miniature, non-X-based Linux
system from a boot floppy (which in turn mounts the root filesystem on a
RAMdisk).  Or, if what you really need is DOS, you can run FreeDOS
or Caldera DR-DOS, rather than MS-DOS/PC-DOS.  The latter is free
of charge for personal use, and includes fairly extensive TCP/IP tools.
No ssh client, though.

> Anything to avoid relying on Windoze is just fine with me. I
> like the idea of a dual DOS/Linux system (no Windoze)...I do love
> "abandonware", especially the older DOS games.

For that, you don't need ssh.

[vnc]

> I see! Thanks for elucidating. I am saving your instructions, in
> the event any client really wants to keep Windoze that badly.
> What an elegant, and rather inexpensive solution.

Exactly!  It shares the monitor, and basically all you need is 
two cheap ethernet cards, a crossover cable, and a cast-off x86
box without monitor (such as a P90) to be the Linux end.

Unlike many other ways of running Win32 applications remotely
(VMware, WINE, X servers for Win32), it doesn't cripple the Linux
box's performance or security, and works reliable.

> I have certain peripherals that may eventually interface with
> Linux...but not at this time. They are: my LS-120 Imation
> SuperDrive (parallel, not USB)...

Supported.
http://www.torque.net/parport/paride.html

> ...my Casio PDA PC-sync cradle (serial, not USB)...

Supported at the hardware level, in the sense that Linux's generic
serial support will communicate through _to_ it.  Whether anyone
has written Casio-PDA sync software for Linux is unknown to me.

> ...and Logitech scanner (parallel, not USB).

Cannot be supported, because Logitech refuses to cooperate with
open-source programmers.  Send them flame-mail.  And buy a
better-supported scanner from a more-cooperative manufacturer, next
time.

http://www.buzzard.org.uk/jonathan/scanners.html

Basically, about half the parallel-port scanner models available have
now either been helped out by cooperative manufacturers or have been
reverse-engineered.  It took this long because programmers smart
enough to write the drivers tend to be also smart enough to buy 
SCSI models, instead of parallel ones.

However, for _all_ Linux parallel-port support issues, you start
looking here, at the Linux Parallel Port Home Page:

http://www.torque.net/linux-pp.html

And, how would you have known that?  By starting at the Linux
Documentation Project, http://www.linuxdoc.org/ , where you start
almost any such question.  There, you follow the "Links/Resources"
link, then the "Hardware" link from there, and among the listings
under "Peripherals" you would have seen "Linux Parallel Port Home Page".

The LDP is also where you'd find, for example, the kernel 2.3
USB and Firewire drivers, and would eventually discover that they've
been back-ported for compatibility with kernel 2.2.14.

I cite that as an example of how useful the LDP site is.  Trust the LDP.
The LDP is your friend.

(And, when all else fails, use Google, Infoseek, and Deja.)

> Also, some valuable Internet services require Windows, such as
> dialpad.com's free long distance.

But there are alternatives with Linux support, such as Quicknet's.

> Before considering Linux for a client, I do question them
> thoroughly about what Windoze programs he or she definitely
> needs...and then if there is any acceptable equivalent in Linux.

See, that's not the right attitude.  You should look for what the
user cannot _currently_ do, or can do only poorly, because he doesn't 
yet have a Linux box to do it on.

> Thanx once more for your generous assistance, Rick. I feel very
> lucky to be in touch with such knowledgable people. Our first
> meeting at BAFUG was a great pleasure, BTW. Disappointed,
> however, in not seeing you there.

I now live in Menlo Park (and work in Sunnyvale).  Berkeley's 
a bit of a trip, especially through rush-hour traffic.

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Wed Mar  8 21:06:50 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 21:06:50 -0800
Subject: [buug] Job offer for scripter
Message-ID: <38C7316A.72585BE2@netzero.net>

I ran into someone who is looking to employ a programmer beyond
my limited capabilities...specifically: someone who can write
java and cgi scripts in the Windoze NT environment. (I'm not a
head-hunter; I don't get paid for this, just the satisfaction of
helping out others in our PC/hacker community.) 

Right now, I just accepted a position as web page designer
(artist's eye/layout kind of stuff), but they're also looking for
a scripter...as well as a good server host that doesn't crash
often. It's a small business, costume boutique, very successful,
in San Francisco. The owner would prefer to work with the
scripter in-house, though I'm sure the position is flexible in
this and other regards. I don't think the job is regular, but
contracted on an as-need basis.

They presently pay for a business server that, frustratingly,
crashes once or twice a week...and the owners really don't want
that to happen especially on weekends. They want to know if
Pacific Bell's service for small business hosting is any good?
Can anyone recommend a reliable server for small businesses, that
rarely crashes, and retains a high level of fast page-loading,
even during peak hours?

Anyone interested in contacting the business owner, re. a
position as scripter, please let me know, and I'll put you in
touch with them, and give you their website URL so you can take a
look-see at their present service.

---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
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From ezekielk at netzero.net  Thu Mar  9 02:17:10 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 02:17:10 -0800
Subject: [buug] Linux Security Site
Message-ID: <38C77A26.91BFE933@netzero.net>

Rick Moen wrote on Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:58:14 -0800:

> But, since that 1980s company need not be important in people's lives,
> in modern computing, there's hardly any call for "boycotting" them.
> You don't have to boycott buggy whips, do you?

If the majority of motorists were still forced to use buggy
whips, then yes, I'd motivate people to 
boycott them.

Perhaps a better term than "boycotting" is "cease using" their
products...which will finally 
put an end to the majority of  desktop PC users running their
systems with the computer's version 
of a buggy whip. Linux is moving quickly now, to provide that
solution. I'm glad that enough people 
are now computer savvy enough to be aware of the type of company
Micro$oft is, what they have been
denied as a result, and that better options are available...or
will soon be.

> > My current goal is to find/install all the necessary plug-ins, so
> > Linux can play Real Audio files, shockwave, etc.
> 
> http://vancouver-webpages.com/plugins/  is one place to start.

Excellent!

> Two of the key points about Linux are (1) Processes are long-lived
> (months at a time).  (2) You make extensive use of networks.
> 
> Using Linux with those two aspects compromised is like bicycling
> without being allowed to use your feet.  It's crippling.
> 
> And dual-booting does exactly that.  Which is _bad_.  More than
> you know, obviously.  Which is why I'm harping on that point.

I did not realize that dual-boot is such a poor compromise. What
you are emphasizing, then, is that running Windoze as a slave OS
to Linux, via a network interface, then gives you a truly robust
Linux box. So I need to get such a network running on my own
desk...and once accomplished, I will be capable to give my
clients the best Linux system for their needs, at very minimal
expense.

> > I was hoping there'd be some sort of ssh for DOS, but I guess
> > not.
> 
> Nope.  However, you can run an entire, miniature, non-X-based Linux
> system from a boot floppy (which in turn mounts the root filesystem on a
> RAMdisk).  

I can certainly do that. Really, no big deal, since I was
previously accustomed to running Unix remotely, via my DOS
connection. I have Tom's "rtbt - Linux on a Floppy" ready to go,
whenever. Then I can just run the ssh client.

I really miss having Unix shell access to the 'Net...but the ISP
that provided it, no longer exists. 

> > I have certain peripherals that may eventually interface with
> > Linux...but not at this time. They are: my LS-120 Imation
> > SuperDrive (parallel, not USB)...
> 
> Supported.
> http://www.torque.net/parport/paride.html

Great!

> Whether anyone
> has written Casio-PDA sync software for Linux is unknown to me.

I'm keeping my eyes peeled, checking into PDA-related message
boards and newsgroups. Hopefully, there will be a utility soon,
that will allow me to back up my Casio to my PC. w/Linux. 

> > ...and Logitech scanner (parallel, not USB).
> 
> Cannot be supported, because Logitech refuses to cooperate with
> open-source programmers.  

That's a shame, and rather rude of them. I really love my
Logi-scanner: has pass-through for regular sheets, photos,
etc....but if a page is too large, or you want to scan a book,
the scanner can be removed from its cradle, and be guided across
the surface of the book or over-sized sheet.

> http://www.buzzard.org.uk/jonathan/scanners.html

Thanks.

> http://www.torque.net/linux-pp.html

Okay!

> I cite that as an example of how useful the LDP site is.  Trust the LDP.
> The LDP is your friend.

Thanks!

> > Also, some valuable Internet services require Windows, such as
> > dialpad.com's free long distance.
> 
> But there are alternatives with Linux support, such as Quicknet's.

No kidding? Dialpad.com allows you to call anyone in the U.S.,
from your personal web page they provide...and the recipient
needs only a plain telephone. The voice quality is not the best,
but most of the time, is quite adequate for conversation. And the
price is right: no fee whatsoever. They generate money from the
ads placed on your page...no intrusion on your voice calls in any
way.

After perusing Quicknet's page, it looks to be a device that
enhances PC-to-PC voice calls, not PC-to-phone (in which case you
must pay the LD fee). I believe that there are some free services
for PC-to-PC, for Linux users, without having to buy special
hardware like Quicknet's...though obviously not as good quality.
If Quicknet provided free LD calls, then I'd snatch it up right
away. What I'm looking for is PC-to-phone web-based service, for
free, that lets you connect with Linux.

> See, that's not the right attitude.  You should look for what the
> user cannot _currently_ do, or can do only poorly, because he doesn't
> yet have a Linux box to do it on.

I'm just beginning to get a grasp of that: for instance, that
your Linux connections are much more secure from viruses and
intrusion than is Windoze. But if they *can't do on Linux, all
the things they want to do in Windoze, I don't think I'd get
beyond square one.

And of course (besides safer connections), another great selling
point is Linux's stability: no more daily crashes and freeze-ups!
(Except Netscape, dammit...but I just discovered xKill which sure
beats re-boots...only once Netscape stops working, it refuses to
work when re-loaded within the same Linux session...so one needs
to re-boot anyway; but at least *that re-boot is much safer.)

> > Our first
> > meeting at BAFUG was a great pleasure, BTW. Disappointed,
> > however, in not seeing you there.
> 
> I now live in Menlo Park (and work in Sunnyvale).  Berkeley's
> a bit of a trip, especially through rush-hour traffic.

No, I wouldn't want you to stress yourself over such bad traffic,
or have an accident...just so we could benefit by your
participation. I hope that you are enjoying your new residence,
and have found a social environment closer to home, to meet your
interests. 

Absorbing your thoughtful explanations and advice, my physician
has found it necessary to accommodate this rapid spurt in the
enlargement of my cerebrum (the only one I have for now), by
surgically adjusting my cranium to hold much larger quantities of
gray matter. I can almost hear the sutures of my skull creaking
from the  challenges you put before me! It's a whole new world
for me, with no lack of intriguing ideas and adventures.

---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
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From jammer  Thu Mar  9 10:32:01 2000
From: jammer (Jon McClintock)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:32:01 -0800
Subject: [buug] For those of you following the DVD/DeCSS scandal...
Message-ID: <20000309103200.A25235@weak.org>

Try this on your Unix box:

> dig @138.195.138.195 goret.org. axfr | grep '^c..\..*A' | sort | cut -b5-36 | perl -e 'while(<>){print pack("H32",$_)}' | gzip -d

:)

-Jon




From feedle at feedle.net  Fri Mar 10 10:10:42 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:10:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] TurboLinux and CA LUGs
In-Reply-To: <200003100246.SAA08382@mail.turbolinux.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000310095623.31559C-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>


On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Kevin Smith wrote:

> Specifically, I want to
>  provide you with eval copies (installs) of our software and other promo
>  goodies for your meetings and install-fests.  I would appreciate it if you
>  would reply to this email with some details about your organization- such as
>  how many members, when your meetings are, and if you're interested in having
>  TurboLinux staff speak at one of your functions.  John Terpstra, co-developer
>  of Samba is our Evangelist and is constantly on the road speaking at
>  conferences, to business partners, and hopefully to LUGs.


BUUG is a non-platform specific social group that meets in Berkeley every
week.  We are not a formally organized group.  We are not Linux-specific.
All UN*X platform users are welcome, and we typically do not evangelize
one platform over another.  The majority of our members run Linux or
NetBSD, with a small number being Solaris and/or BSDI users.  Our meetings
are held at the Cafe Au Coquolet, directions and the exact address are on
our website at http://www.weak.org/buug (one meeting a month is held in
conjunction with the BAFUG FreeBSD Users Group, which meets a couple of
blocks away on the same night).

At the moment, BUUG has about a dozen or so members.  Since we meet
weekly, we get a number of people that only show up in one out of four or
so meetings.  We are still a small, new user group: we've only been
meeting for around two or three months.  

We are more of a social gathering than a formal user group.  We do not
have organized meetings, rather, we cluster around a bunch of tables and
talk geek.  I'm not 100% sure if our current "format" would be appropriate
for a formal "talk", but we may be able to make some sort of arrangement
if enough of our userbase is interested.  I've forwarded this reply to our
general membership mailing list for comment, and if there is enough
interest (not only from our core membership, but from our extended
community we interact with) it might be worth making accommodations for
you.  I'll let you know what I hear.

If you have any questions, feel free to drop me a line. 

Chris Sullivan
Co-Founder (and semi-official mouthpiece)
Berkeley Unix Users Group (BUUG)




From feedle at feedle.net  Fri Mar 10 10:12:07 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:12:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [buug] [Buug-admin] TurboLinux and CA LUGs (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000310101050.31559D-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>

Since I forwarded my reply to the buug list, you might want to see the
original message in context.

-Chris

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 18:46:07 -0800
From: Kevin Smith <ksmith at turbolinux.com>
To: info at svlug.org, scottc at jps.net, jay at got.net, sylug at rentatek.com,
    dennis at cwws.net, ndt at jps.net, buug-admin at weak.org
Subject: [Buug-admin] TurboLinux and CA LUGs


 Dear Linux User Group Coordinators,

 First, I want to thank all of you for contributing so much to the Linux
 community.  Without your efforts, Linux would be no better than...you know
 who.

 I'm sure some of you have been wondering why TurboLinux hasn't tried to
 contact you.  Well, we are growing immensely each day and until now
we         haven't had the capability to do it right.  So now I come to you
with hopes    of beginning a more stable relationship between us. 
Specifically, I want to
 provide you with eval copies (installs) of our software and other promo
 goodies for your meetings and install-fests.  I would appreciate it if you
 would reply to this email with some details about your organization- such as
 how many members, when your meetings are, and if you're interested in having
 TurboLinux staff speak at one of your functions.  John Terpstra, co-developer
 of Samba is our Evangelist and is constantly on the road speaking at
 conferences, to business partners, and hopefully to LUGs.

 We are also re-vamping our web site and trying to add links to Linux
 organizations.  I would appreciate if you would allow us to link your
web      site from ours.  Please take a look at www.turbolinux.com. 
Hopefully, when    you write back you could give us permission to add your
site to our links      page. For sooner delivery of TL stuff, you also might
want to give me your     shipping address.  Thank you so much for taking the
time and for being such a
 beneficial part of the Linux Community.  In fact, you are the
Linux            Community. 


 Take care,



 --
 Kevin Smith
 TurboLinux Inc.
 LUG Outreach
 Beta Program
 Asst. to John Terpstra - VP Community Relations
 ksmith at turbolinux.com
 (650)244-7300



_______________________________________________
Buug-admin mailing list
Buug-admin at weak.org
http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug-admin




From ezekielk at netzero.net  Fri Mar 10 11:44:03 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:44:03 -0800
Subject: [buug] [Buug-admin] TurboLinux and CA LUGs (fwd)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000310101050.31559D-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <38C95083.E299F81D@netzero.net>

Feedle (quoting a promotional letter from Turbo Linux rep. Kevin
Smith):

> Since I forwarded my reply to the buug list, you might want to see the
> original message in context.

Kevin Smith's hokey, used-car salesman approach totally turns me
off. As in:

>> First, I want to thank all of you for contributing so much to 
>> the Linux community.  Without your efforts, Linux would be no 
>> better than...you know who.

(This is almost as bad as "Do you like penguins?") And this: 

>> I'm sure some of you have been wondering why 
>> TurboLinux hasn't tried to contact you. 

(It never occurred to me why they haven't contacted us; should
it?) Likewise, the allure of showering us with Turbo-Linux
branded items is a tacky maneuver:

>> For sooner delivery of TL stuff, you also might
>> want to give me your shipping address.

So AFAIC, it's a thumbs-down (or "thumbs-up" in the ancient
Roman-Colisseum sense). His evangelistic approach is an unwelcome
intrusion to a non-commercial group like ours. However, if you or
any other BUUG member sees a real value in having Kevin speak to
our little group--which presently eludes me--I will support that.

Of course, it's still nice to have our group linked on Turbo
Linux's page; just as they are already linked from ours.

>> So now I come to you with hopes of beginning a more stable 
>> relationship between us.

Cha! Like I rilly rilly care, dude.     :b

Maybe we should develop a policy to exclude Linux-type sites from
our links page, as regards any whose promotion becomes
offensively, evangelistically commercial.

> Chris Sullivan
> Co-Founder (and semi-official mouthpiece)

Not only are you a co-founder, but definitely official...no need
to tag a "semi" to this sort of communique. At this point, I even
feel somewhat presumptuous for declaring who can or cannot be
regarded as official. I'd like to declare everyone who attends at
least half our meetings for the first year, as co-founders (or
"founding members")...and place my trust in such members to
officially represent BUUG w/o any formal processing. 




---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
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http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Mar 10 12:46:12 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 12:46:12 -0800
Subject: [buug] [Buug-admin] TurboLinux and CA LUGs (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <38C95083.E299F81D@netzero.net>; from ezekielk@netzero.net on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 11:44:03AM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000310101050.31559D-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com> <38C95083.E299F81D@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <20000310124611.M21620@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Zeke --

It's possible that TurboLinux has just suddenly realised that it needs
to do LUG liaison, and is just a bit clumsy about how to do it.

The company only _fairly_ recently opened a USA office, after being 
based mostly in Japan.  Then, it renamed itself from Pacific HiTech,
Inc. to TurboLinux, Inc., and moved its USA office from Oakland to
Brisbane.  But, in all that time, the company never did much outreach
to user groups -- and may have recently realised that.

A lot of the other Linux companies will provide complimentary one-disk
CD sets for user groups.  Red Hat has done this in the past (not sure
about recently), and definitely SuSE has.

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From ezekielk at gmx.net  Fri Mar 10 21:55:33 2000
From: ezekielk at gmx.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:55:33 -0800
Subject: [buug] [Buug-admin] TurboLinux and CA LUGs (fwd)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000310101050.31559D-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com> <38C95083.E299F81D@netzero.net> <20000310124611.M21620@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <38C9DFD5.D2B3C6A8@gmx.net>

Rick Moen wrote:

> It's possible that TurboLinux has just suddenly realised that it needs
> to do LUG liaison, and is just a bit clumsy about how to do it.

I've taken that into account, by stating that if anyone wants to
invite him, I'll go with that. 

Anyone is welcome to attend a BUUG meeting, without invitation.
If the representative can guarantee that he'll require no more
than 1/2 hour of our undivided attention, then he is welcome. If
he turns out to use a hard-sell or evangelistic approach, he'll
just be hooted out of the meeting. His correspondence reflects
such an approach, though I am willing to give him the benefit of
the doubt. Sure, bring him on!

---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sat Mar 11 09:53:01 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 09:53:01 -0800
Subject: [buug] [Buug-admin] TurboLinux and CA LUGs (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <38C9DFD5.D2B3C6A8@gmx.net>; from ezekielk@gmx.net on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 09:55:33PM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000310101050.31559D-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com> <38C95083.E299F81D@netzero.net> <20000310124611.M21620@uncle-enzo.imat.com> <38C9DFD5.D2B3C6A8@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20000311095300.K26943@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at gmx.net):

> I've taken that into account, by stating that if anyone wants to
> invite him, I'll go with that. 

Understand, then, that most LUG meetings follow a presentation format.
Therefore, his offer would, for most LUGs, be ordinary and welcomed.

Since BUUG has a different meeting format, it suffices to clarify the
situation for him.  Which has now been done.  No harm, no foul.

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From ezekielk at iname.com  Sat Mar 11 15:23:17 2000
From: ezekielk at iname.com (ezekielk at iname.com)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:23:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [buug] [Buug-admin] TurboLinux and CA LUGs (fwd)
Message-ID: <0003111823170G.14669@weba3.iname.net>

Rick Moen wrote:
> Since BUUG has a different meeting format, it 
> suffices to clarify the situation for him.  Which 
> has now been done.  No harm, no foul.

Our super-casual group can henceforth, forward 
such offers to those with a structured format. 
In consideration of our association with BAFUG, we 
could give you first pickings, in the case of any 
truly attractive guest speakers. (Naturally, if such 
an offer comes along that is *so enticing--such as 
a visit from Mitnik or Torvalds--BUUG may 
greedily accept such celebrity to its own group 
without first discussing this with others.)  ;)
---
FreeISP Cubs BBS & Chat
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
---
Berkeley Unix User Group
http://www.weak.org/buug/
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
--------------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://netscape.iname.com



From ezekielk at gmx.net  Mon Mar 13 12:54:24 2000
From: ezekielk at gmx.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:54:24 -0800
Subject: [Buug-admin] RE: [buug] Do you like Penguins?  :)
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000307120427.25806G-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <38CD5580.72DF08D4@gmx.net>

Problem resolved, re. potential spammers:

I have simply removed our list's e-mail address from the home
page. When a visitor clicks on the registration link, he or she
can then get that address. Look for this update by Thursday or
Friday. TA-DA!

---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275




From ezekielk at gmx.net  Tue Mar 14 21:51:44 2000
From: ezekielk at gmx.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 21:51:44 -0800
Subject: [buug] $99 LCD screen
Message-ID: <38CF24F0.C760D7BD@gmx.net>

While checking out Circuit City this eve., I noticed a lovely 10"
LCD monitor that comes with the "Netpliance i-opener"...which
costs $99 (plus $21 monthly connection fee). So it occurred to
me: "Hey! $99 is pretty cheap for a decent LCD screen like this.
Maybe I could just buy the system, and skip the monthly
fees...and pay a hacker to rewired the LCD to work on my desktop
system."

Is such a trick in the realms of possibility to anyone in our
local community? If so, I'm sure others would go for this, too,
for their own purposes. I'd gladly pay someone to set this up for
me, too.


---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275




From jammer at weak.org  Wed Mar 15 10:27:58 2000
From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:27:58 -0800
Subject: [buug] $99 LCD screen
Message-ID: <20000315102758.A27875@weak.org>

Heh, where have you been? This device has been making the big time news...

It turns out it's got a Pentium-200 equivalent processor in it, and you can
put a notebook hard drive in with little effort. The modem it has internally
is a standard modem (not a WinModem).

So, for about 150 bux, you could have a flat panel computer running your
favorite OS.

What's the catch? Well, since the scoop was released on SlashDot, the 
geeks made a rush on them. Circuit City is sold out and back ordered around
the nation. I don't think there is a single store that has them in stock.

You can order them directly from the manufacturer (I did), but you have to
pay 40 dollars in shipping.

Also, alot of people are predicting that the company (Netpliance) will soon
switch to require a service commitement upon purchase of the device.

-Jon

On Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 09:51:44PM -0800, Zeke Krahlin wrote:
> While checking out Circuit City this eve., I noticed a lovely 10"
> LCD monitor that comes with the "Netpliance i-opener"...which
> costs $99 (plus $21 monthly connection fee). So it occurred to
> me: "Hey! $99 is pretty cheap for a decent LCD screen like this.
> Maybe I could just buy the system, and skip the monthly
> fees...and pay a hacker to rewired the LCD to work on my desktop
> system."
> 
> Is such a trick in the realms of possibility to anyone in our
> local community? If so, I'm sure others would go for this, too,
> for their own purposes. I'd gladly pay someone to set this up for
> me, too.



From tomd at sacefcu.org  Wed Mar 15 10:40:21 2000
From: tomd at sacefcu.org (Tom DeSot)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 12:40:21 -0600
Subject: [buug] $99 LCD screen
Message-ID: <0150CA5A623FD211B16400105A0463263B1DEB@cecupdc.sacefcu.org>

I called a store here in San Antonio and they are all out also.  They will
special order them for you but you are looking at 2-3 weeks for delivery.
Guess it just depends upon how bad you want it.

I'd be interested in hearing how much effort it took to get the HD on it and
up and running once someone does it.

Tom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon McClintock [mailto:jammer at weak.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 12:28 PM
> To: buug at weak.org
> Subject: Re: [buug] $99 LCD screen
> 
> 
> Heh, where have you been? This device has been making the big 
> time news...
> 
> It turns out it's got a Pentium-200 equivalent processor in 
> it, and you can
> put a notebook hard drive in with little effort. The modem it 
> has internally
> is a standard modem (not a WinModem).
> 
> So, for about 150 bux, you could have a flat panel computer 
> running your
> favorite OS.
> 
> What's the catch? Well, since the scoop was released on SlashDot, the 
> geeks made a rush on them. Circuit City is sold out and back 
> ordered around
> the nation. I don't think there is a single store that has 
> them in stock.
> 
> You can order them directly from the manufacturer (I did), 
> but you have to
> pay 40 dollars in shipping.
> 
> Also, alot of people are predicting that the company 
> (Netpliance) will soon
> switch to require a service commitement upon purchase of the device.
> 
> -Jon
> 
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 09:51:44PM -0800, Zeke Krahlin wrote:
> > While checking out Circuit City this eve., I noticed a lovely 10"
> > LCD monitor that comes with the "Netpliance i-opener"...which
> > costs $99 (plus $21 monthly connection fee). So it occurred to
> > me: "Hey! $99 is pretty cheap for a decent LCD screen like this.
> > Maybe I could just buy the system, and skip the monthly
> > fees...and pay a hacker to rewired the LCD to work on my desktop
> > system."
> > 
> > Is such a trick in the realms of possibility to anyone in our
> > local community? If so, I'm sure others would go for this, too,
> > for their own purposes. I'd gladly pay someone to set this up for
> > me, too.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
> 



From jammer  Wed Mar 15 10:47:50 2000
From: jammer (Jon McClintock)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:47:50 -0800
Subject: [buug] $99 LCD screen
In-Reply-To: <0150CA5A623FD211B16400105A0463263B1DEB@cecupdc.sacefcu.org>; from tomd@sacefcu.org on Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:40:21PM -0600
References: <0150CA5A623FD211B16400105A0463263B1DEB@cecupdc.sacefcu.org>
Message-ID: <20000315104749.B27875@weak.org>

On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:40:21PM -0600, Tom DeSot wrote:
> I called a store here in San Antonio and they are all out also.  They will
> special order them for you but you are looking at 2-3 weeks for delivery.
> Guess it just depends upon how bad you want it.
> 
> I'd be interested in hearing how much effort it took to get the HD on it and
> up and running once someone does it.

Well, I'll tell you once mine comes in :)

Here's the scoop on what you have to do. The device has an IDE port on the
motherboard. The problem is, it's upside-down. So you have to make an IDE
cable with every other pin switched. That means flipping 22 pairs of wires
and putting on an IDC connector. 

Then all you have to do is fabricate a mounting bracket (sheet aluminum seems
to work well for this), and install.

Since the device has no floppy drive, you have to install the OS on the hard
drive using another computer. If you don't have a laptop with an IDE interface
handy, you can get a laptop IDE -> Normal IDE adapter for this purpose (they
are pretty cheap apparently).

The device has a USB port as well, so I'm planning on getting a USB->10BT 
ethernet adapter (most all of them are supported under NetBSD) so I can
hook it up to my network.

I'll definately let you guys know; I'll probably even bring mine to a
meeting when it's setup.

-Jon




From jammer  Wed Mar 15 11:34:41 2000
From: jammer (Jon McClintock)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:34:41 -0800
Subject: [buug] $99 LCD screen
In-Reply-To: <0150CA5A623FD211B16400105A0463263B1DEB@cecupdc.sacefcu.org>; from tomd@sacefcu.org on Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:40:21PM -0600
References: <0150CA5A623FD211B16400105A0463263B1DEB@cecupdc.sacefcu.org>
Message-ID: <20000315113441.A28424@weak.org>

Oh, I should point out the web sites with information on this:

  http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/  <<-- The original web site

And:

  http://iopener.scizzors.net/  <<-- very nicely laid out site, but it has
                                     little additional information...

-Jon





From ezekielk at netzero.net  Wed Mar 15 13:47:15 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:47:15 -0800
Subject: [buug] $99 LCD screen
Message-ID: <38D004E3.CA0104ED@netzero.net>

>Oh, I should point out the web sites with information on this:

That is a big help, Jon...really neat site. AND THE LCD RUNS ON
LINUX!!!! I think I just died and went to Valhalla.

I am surprised that all the chain stores are out of stock on that
item...since there aren't *that many hackers...and they're the
only ones who'd figure this out. So I conjecture that some
hackers are going into business for themselves, offering
(non-hacking) customers a beautiful LCD screen for their system,
for just $300.

How about a "mini-install fest" just for this LCD?

Hey, what am I doing still sitting here, typing this silly
message? Gotta run back to Circuit City and get on that list! It
may not be too late! (When Torvalds said "brains" I thought he
said "trains"...etc.)


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Wed Mar 15 21:58:19 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:58:19 -0800
Subject: [buug] Mouse not reacting in Linux upgrade
Message-ID: <38D077FA.3A9A78C9@netzero.net>

I just upgraded from Mandrake 6.1 to 7.0...took about 1.5 hours
to complete. I noticed that, through the enitire install, the
mouse was not responding at all...the cursor just remained there,
in the screen center, for the entire process. Otherwise, a very
smooth and user-friendly installaltion.

Okay, so I loaded my new Linux, but the mouse is still not
recognized. I managed to locate "mousedrake", by letting my
fingers do the walking. I ran it, and attempted all the possible
installs: "generic mouse", "generic 3-button mouse", "MS mouse",
and "Mouse systems mouse".

I use a generic mouse that worked just fine in Mandrake 6.1 all
along, as a 3-button, or as a 2-button generic mouse. It is
actually a cirque touchpad, which runs on most generic drivers.
The COM1 connection is okay, as it works fine (as usual) in DOS
and Windoze98.

I don't know how to locate help in this matter, in the plenitude
of "how-to's", so if someone can direct me to the correct
resource re. mouse troubleshooting, I'll gladly comply. I *hate
not having access to my Linux box!

---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From jammer at weak.org  Thu Mar 16 10:32:39 2000
From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 10:32:39 -0800
Subject: [buug] [egmilian@gene.com: [Buug-admin] Linux classes]
Message-ID: <20000316103239.A4364@weak.org>

----- Forwarded message from Emilio Gerardo Milian <egmilian at gene.com> -----

From: Emilio Gerardo Milian <egmilian at gene.com>
Subject: [Buug-admin] Linux classes

Hello:

My name is Emilio Milian and I'm a computer teacher at South San
Francisco Adult Education.
I'm planning to teach a Linux class this coming May 2000, as a test to
see if there is any interest.

I'm still learning Linux and havent played with it too much, so if you
have any suggestions or recommendations I would appreciate them. 
Can you suggest any sources to help in installing and troubleshooting?
How about an installfest at the school?

We also need your help to get the word out to the public about this
class.
Can you help us by putting a notice on your web page?

Am preparing the web pages, your comments are appreciated:
http://www.smcoe.k12.ca.us/ssfusd/as/linux/linux1.html
http://www.smcoe.k12.ca.us/ssfusd/as/linux/linux2.html
http://www.smcoe.k12.ca.us/ssfusd/as/linux/linux3.html
http://www.smcoe.k12.ca.us/ssfusd/as/linux/linux4.html

Our class schedules are on: http://www.smcoe.k12.ca.us/ssfusd/as/

If you have any literature or items for class handout, they would be
appreciated.
Our address is: South San Francisco Adult Education
825 Southwood Dr
South San Francisco, Ca 94080


Emilio G. Milian
egmilian at gene.com

----- End forwarded message -----



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Fri Mar 17 00:38:16 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:38:16 -0800
Subject: [buug] gadgets.com
Message-ID: <38D1EEF8.91988E70@netzero.net>

An eclectic site for selling all types of "gadgets", including
those for electronics and computers:

	http://www.gadgetpros.com/
---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
http://www.weak.org/buug/
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Mar 17 15:41:46 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 15:41:46 -0800
Subject: [buug] Linux Security Site
In-Reply-To: <38C77A26.91BFE933@netzero.net>; from ezekielk@netzero.net on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 02:17:10AM -0800
References: <38C77A26.91BFE933@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <20000317154146.L27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at netzero.net):

> Rick Moen wrote on Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:58:14 -0800:

> If the majority of motorists were still forced to use buggy
> whips, then yes, I'd motivate people to boycott them.

Feeling you're "forced to use Windows" is so... so.. fin de si?cle.
Except, without the Impressionism.

> I have Tom's "rtbt - Linux on a Floppy" ready to go, whenever. Then I
> can just run the ssh client.

You think ssh is keen, _wait_ until you start playing with rsync.
http://rsync.samba.org/ 

> I'm just beginning to get a grasp of that: for instance, that
> your Linux connections are much more secure from viruses and
> intrusion than is Windoze. But if they *can't do on Linux, all
> the things they want to do in Windoze, I don't think I'd get
> beyond square one.

Well, that's where VNC is such a big win.

> And of course (besides safer connections), another great selling
> point is Linux's stability: no more daily crashes and freeze-ups!
> (Except Netscape, dammit...but I just discovered xKill which sure
> beats re-boots...only once Netscape stops working, it refuses to
> work when re-loaded within the same Linux session...so one needs
> to re-boot anyway; but at least *that re-boot is much safer.)

Your ultimate tool for that is to go to a shell and type "killall -9
netscape" (or whatever binary name is mentioned in "ps" or "top").
That blows the browser out of memory immediately.  If you do that,
you'll also want to delete ~/.netscape/lock, before restarting 
the program.

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Fri Mar 17 16:22:08 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:22:08 -0800
Subject: [buug] Linux Security Site
References: <38C77A26.91BFE933@netzero.net> <20000317154146.L27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <38D2CC30.DC141D52@netzero.net>

Rick Moen wrote:
> You think ssh is keen, _wait_ until you start playing with rsync.
> http://rsync.samba.org/

Up, up and away!

> Well, that's where VNC is such a big win.

You've got me sold on it. Since I have ordered an i-opener for
hacking, VNC suddenly becomes mandatory...as that may be the only
way to interface the LCD screen with my main system. But I also
see (now) where running Windoze as slave, via VNC, is also a
great
anti-virus method.

> > (Except Netscape, dammit...but I just discovered xKill which sure
> > beats re-boots...only once Netscape stops working, it refuses to
> > work when re-loaded within the same Linux session...so one needs
> > to re-boot anyway; but at least *that re-boot is much safer.)
> 
> Your ultimate tool for that is to go to a shell and type "killall -9
> netscape" (or whatever binary name is mentioned in "ps" or "top").
> That blows the browser out of memory immediately.  If you do that,
> you'll also want to delete ~/.netscape/lock, before restarting
> the program.

Aha, very good! Excellent.

Now, half the time Netscape locks up, I also experience a
complete system freeze-up.
The system is *frozen...no switching to another desktop, no
opening a shell, no moving the mouse cursor, no nothing at all.
IOW: it's not just
the program (Netscape) that freezes, but the ENTIRE SYSTEM! Makes
me feel like I'm back in Windoze again...something I *don't want
to happen. I tried Ctrl-alt-esc, too, out of desperation (nothing
happened).

I had originally set Netscape's cache to 0 (zero), but changing
it to 3MB or any other amount, did not prevent this freeze-up.
So I don't know what else to try. Other than dumping Netscape.


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Mar 17 16:19:00 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:19:00 -0800
Subject: [buug] Excellent Newbie Linux Site
In-Reply-To: <38C6BAB5.56EB8A3D@netzero.net>; from ezekielk@netzero.net on Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 12:40:21PM -0800
References: <38C6BAB5.56EB8A3D@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <20000317161859.M27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at netzero.net):
> Rick Moen said:
>> Quoting ezekielk at iname.com (ezekielk at iname.com):

>>> http://www.control-escape.com/
> 
>> Hmm.  It suffers from Microsoft tunnel vision.  
> 
> Since the author is writing specifically for Windoze users who
> want to convert to Linux, I'd expect him to have such "tunnel
> vision". Though I know where you're coming from, I believe this
> author does a great job in providing the "missing link" for a
> smoother transition from Windoze to Linux.

There's a difference between understanding and communicating with
one's audience's mind-set, on the one hand, and perpetuating it 
on the other.  

In the medium and long term, newcomers will not bother to keep using
Linux unless they're acquainted with what's characteristically excellent
about it.  If you wanted to blind people to those excellences, 
encouraging people to see Linux in Windows terms is exactly the way
to do it.  (If anything, the trick is to help them see Windows in
Linux terms.)

>> You'll learn a lot more, more-useful things, and more quickly, from
>> reading Linux Gazette (http://www.linuxgazette.com/) the HOWTOs
>> at the Linux Documentation Project (http://www.linuxdoc.org/), and
>> good tutorial books like Matt Welsh's _Running Linux_.
> 
> So far, I don't find that to be the case. As one who truly does
> suffer from "Windoze tunnel vision", I have to say that the raw
> HOWTOs and L. Gazette toss out masses of Linux data without any
> real structure...nor do they (along with Welsh) cater to the
> ex-Windoze crowd.

The funny thing is that my Mac-programming-background fiancee 
recently complained to me that _Running Linux's_ defect was that
it was pitched at Windows users.

Looking at the documents on http://www.control-escape.com/, such
as (e.g.) the "Sharing a Drive with Windows" article, I find that
the author omits crucially needed data -- even from the strict 
utilitarian standpoint, not to mention helping almost not at all
in understanding the Linux way of thinking.

_Running Linux_ (and the better articles in _Linux Gazette_) are
good specifically because they tell you everything you most need
to know, and teach the _principles_ and general patterns that underlie 
Linux.  Those, in turn, are a great deal more useful to newcomers
than any number of "recipe" articles of the type that seem predominant 
on that Web site.

> You would have to spend a lot of time, just tunneling through such
> quantities of data (L. Gazette archives and HOWTOs), in order to find
> that one small bit information needed to perform that next tiny step
> re. installing and fine-tuning Linux.

As the old joke goes, don't do that, then.  You use search tools
and search engines, for that.

> ...Not that _Running Linux_ is not a valuable resource,...

And _Running Linux_, in similar fashion, has an extremely handy
index.

But _Running Linux_ is NOT, in point of fact, intended as a reference 
volume.  This isn't a bug; it's a feature.  _Running Linux_ is intended
to be read consecutively, a chapter or two at a time, to _teach_ you.
That is, it's a tutorial text, rather than a reference one.

It is quite endearing of O'Reilly & Associates that, in general, they
have not forgotten that computer books are _supposed_ to be either 
tutorials or references, but not attempt to be both at the same time.
That is a horrific defect of most books from Que, IDG, Macmillan, Sybex,
etc.

The best _reference_ volume I know of for Linux is _Linux in a Nutshell_, 
2nd Edition, by Ellen Siever et al.  From O'Reilly, not coincidentally.

> This "Control-Escape" site provides most answers to ease Windoze
> users into Linux...better than any other resource I have so far
> come across.

I absolutely cannot agree.  Buckle down and _read_ a few chapters of
_Running Linux_, and compare.

> Linux remains notoriously bad when it comes to organized and
> well-written HOWTO documentation...at least, when it comes to fitting
> the needs of newbies.

Complaining about software documentation has always been a popular 
pastime, but the LDP's documentation happens to be the centerpiece
in Linux's fame as the best-documented OS ever written.  Even while
it can and should be better, it has the awards to show how highly 
though of it is.

> Netscape 4.6 stinks on ice: always crashing the entire system
> just like in Windoze...forcing a hard reboot, which is not so
> nice for Linux.

Misperception.  You need only open a shell and kill it from there,
or Ctrl-Alt-F1 over to a different virtual console to do likewise,
or Ctrl-Alt-Bkspace to kill the X server.

Almost always, if you think you have to reboot to fix something in
Linux, you are mistaken (though, occasionally, I do so anyhow because
I'm being lazy).

> Learning "chmod" commands, which for some reason seems to work
> arbitrarily. IOW: as root, I can run this command:
> 
> 	chmod 777 *
> 
> in a directory, and get absolutely *no changes in permissions
> (which did not allow writing or executing for all others, and no
> execution for groups). Or "chmod 555 *", or whatever.

Either you're omitting something from the above account, or you're
doing that on a filesystem mounted read-only, or something in the 
above account is wrong -- because that does not add up.

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Fri Mar 17 13:45:59 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:45:59 -0800
Subject: [buug] Mouse not reacting in Linux upgrade
References: <38D077FA.3A9A78C9@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <38D2A797.EACBF968@netzero.net>

Zeke Krahlin wrote:
> Okay, so I loaded my new Linux, but the mouse is still not
> recognized. 

Okay, my mouse is now working just fine. Don't know what the
problem was, in the first place...but it worked after re-booting
Linux. (How ironic.)

---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275


__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Fri Mar 17 16:24:44 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:24:44 -0800
Subject: [buug] Errors in Haiku
Message-ID: <38D2CCCC.5A8C69C1@netzero.net>

(From unknown author):

Imagine if, instead of incomprehensible geek text strings, your
computer produced error messages in Haiku...
  
A file that big?
It might be very useful.
But now it is gone.
  
Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot.
Order shall return.
  
Aborted effort.
Close all that you have.
You ask far too much.
  
Windows NT crashed.
I am the Blue Screen of Death.
No one hears your screams.
  
A crash reduces
your expensive computer 
to a simple stone.
  
Yesterday it worked.
Today it is not working.
Windows is like that.
  
Three things are certain:
Death, taxes, and lost data.
Guess which has occurred.
  
Out of memory.
We wish to hold the whole sky,
but we never will.
  
Having been erased,
the document you're seeking
must now be re-typed.
  
Serious error.
All shortcuts have disappeared.
Screen. Mind. Both are blank.
  
Now here are a few of my own:

        LCD is better for your eyes.
        Costs too much? Steal it. 
        Health comes first.

        Who taught you computers,
        foolish know-nothing slave?
        Shut up: pound those keys.      

        Joystick is but a fleeting
        satisfaction. Much better:
        cordless mouse.

---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Mar 17 16:23:56 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:23:56 -0800
Subject: [buug] Mouse not reacting in Linux upgrade
In-Reply-To: <38D2A797.EACBF968@netzero.net>; from ezekielk@netzero.net on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 01:45:59PM -0800
References: <38D077FA.3A9A78C9@netzero.net> <38D2A797.EACBF968@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <20000317162356.O27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at netzero.net):

> Okay, my mouse is now working just fine. Don't know what the
> problem was, in the first place...but it worked after re-booting
> Linux. (How ironic.)

Usually, it's something like having launched gpm (the general-purpose
mouse driver, which is for console mode) in a manner that then conflicts
with X.  Maybe, your reboot allowed you to enter X without gpm running.

Many problems can be solved by looking at the process table (the "ps"
and "top" commands).

-- 
Cheers,                   The cynics among us might say:   "We laugh, 
Rick Moen                 monkeyboys -- Linux IS the mainstream UNIX now!
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  MuaHaHaHa!" but that would be rude. -- Jim Dennis



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Mar 17 16:27:16 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:27:16 -0800
Subject: [buug] Linux Security Site
In-Reply-To: <38D2CC30.DC141D52@netzero.net>; from ezekielk@netzero.net on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:22:08PM -0800
References: <38C77A26.91BFE933@netzero.net> <20000317154146.L27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com> <38D2CC30.DC141D52@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <20000317162716.P27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at netzero.net):

> Now, half the time Netscape locks up, I also experience a complete
> system freeze-up.  The system is *frozen...no switching to another
> desktop, no opening a shell, no moving the mouse cursor, no nothing at
> all.  IOW: it's not just the program (Netscape) that freezes, but the
> ENTIRE SYSTEM!

(1) Wait 100 seconds or so.  Sometimes, Netscape is just waiting on
a DNS lookup, and you're waiting for the timeout.

(2) Try the breakout methods I mentioned.

(3) Ssh or telnet in, if the machine's on your local LAN.  Then, apply
the measures mentioned previously.

You may also wish to disable Java, Javascript, and Cascading Style
Sheets in Preferences.  They're responsible for most of the bad
craziness in Netscape 4.x.

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Fri Mar 17 16:35:51 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:35:51 -0800
Subject: [buug] Excellent Newbie Linux Site
References: <38C6BAB5.56EB8A3D@netzero.net> <20000317161859.M27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <38D2CF67.C37C504C@netzero.net>

Rick Moen wrote:

> I absolutely cannot agree.  Buckle down and _read_ a few chapters of
> _Running Linux_, and compare.

I hear that! I defer to your greater expertise on this.


> > Netscape 4.6 stinks on ice: always crashing the entire system
> > just like in Windoze...forcing a hard reboot, which is not so
> > nice for Linux.
> 
> Misperception.  You need only open a shell and kill it from there,
> or Ctrl-Alt-F1 over to a different virtual console to do likewise,
> or Ctrl-Alt-Bkspace to kill the X server.

I also have the experience of Netscape causing the entire system
to freeze...which then forces me to do a cold reboot.

> Almost always, if you think you have to reboot to fix something in
> Linux, you are mistaken.

This is my assumption, but Netscape seems to violate this rule.

 
> > Learning "chmod" commands, which for some reason seems to work
> > arbitrarily. IOW: as root, I can run this command:
> >
> >       chmod 777 *
> >
> > in a directory, and get absolutely *no changes in permissions
> > (which did not allow writing or executing for all others, and no
> > execution for groups). Or "chmod 555 *", or whatever.
> 
> Either you're omitting something from the above account, or you're
> doing that on a filesystem mounted read-only, or something in the
> above account is wrong -- because that does not add up.

I found the answer: I was experimenting with "chmod" in both a
native Linux partition, and on a DOS partition. It is the DOS
partition, where I get no changes that I requested...even though
it is not mounted as "read-only"...at least, not as root.


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275


__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Fri Mar 17 16:40:54 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:40:54 -0800
Subject: [buug] Mouse not reacting in Linux upgrade
References: <38D077FA.3A9A78C9@netzero.net> <38D2A797.EACBF968@netzero.net> <20000317162356.O27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <38D2D096.4E844E20@netzero.net>

Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at netzero.net):
> 
> > Okay, my mouse is now working just fine. Don't know what the
> > problem was, in the first place...but it worked after re-booting
> > Linux. (How ironic.)
> 
> Usually, it's something like having launched gpm (the general-purpose
> mouse driver, which is for console mode) in a manner that then conflicts
> with X.  Maybe, your reboot allowed you to enter X without gpm running.

That makes sense.

> Many problems can be solved by looking at the process table (the "ps"
> and "top" commands).

I see. I will keep that in mind, for any future problems. Thanx!


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275


__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Fri Mar 17 16:47:17 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 16:47:17 -0800
Subject: [buug] Linux Security Site
References: <38C77A26.91BFE933@netzero.net> <20000317154146.L27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com> <38D2CC30.DC141D52@netzero.net> <20000317162716.P27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <38D2D215.D6535B2E@netzero.net>

Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at netzero.net):
> 
> > Now, half the time Netscape locks up, I also experience a complete
> > system freeze-up.  The system is *frozen...no switching to another
> > desktop, no opening a shell, no moving the mouse cursor, no nothing at
> > all.  IOW: it's not just the program (Netscape) that freezes, but the
> > ENTIRE SYSTEM!
> 
> (1) Wait 100 seconds or so.  Sometimes, Netscape is just waiting on
> a DNS lookup, and you're waiting for the timeout.

I believe I did wait a lot longer than that, but to be sure, I
will measure my time when Netscape freezes up again. Thanx.

> (2) Try the breakout methods I mentioned.

That would be only if the entire system is not frozen, correct?

> (3) Ssh or telnet in, if the machine's on your local LAN.  Then, apply
> the measures mentioned previously.

I am not connected to any other system; purely stand-alone at
this time. 
Wait until I get my i-opener, though.  :)

> You may also wish to disable Java, Javascript, and Cascading Style
> Sheets in Preferences.  They're responsible for most of the bad
> craziness in Netscape 4.x.

That is probably the most likely case. However, I rely on several
important Internet services that heavily use Javascript...such as
my message board provided by Delphi. (Maybe not, though, I'll
give it another try.)

Well, let me see how this all goes. I am very much in agreement
it's the stupid java stuff doing this.
Your help is *much appreciated, even when I disagree due to sheer
ignorance. That's why I call myself:


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Mar 17 17:22:04 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:22:04 -0800
Subject: [buug] Excellent Newbie Linux Site
In-Reply-To: <38D2CF67.C37C504C@netzero.net>; from ezekielk@netzero.net on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:35:51PM -0800
References: <38C6BAB5.56EB8A3D@netzero.net> <20000317161859.M27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com> <38D2CF67.C37C504C@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <20000317172203.R27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at netzero.net):

> I also have the experience of Netscape causing the entire system
> to freeze...which then forces me to do a cold reboot.

_If_ you've exhausted all the ways to get to a usable shell, then by a 
functional definition the system is frozen.  But, I have a feeling you
weren't familiar with some.
 
> I found the answer: I was experimenting with "chmod" in both a
> native Linux partition, and on a DOS partition. It is the DOS
> partition, where I get no changes that I requested...even though
> it is not mounted as "read-only"...at least, not as root.

Ah.  Well, you see, a "DOS" (FAT) partition lacks anywhere to put 
ownership and permission information, so a default gets applied at
the time of mounting.  You can specify/override the default rights mask
and ownership as options to the mount command (or, therefore, in
/etc/fstab).  The usual sort of cryptic details can be found in the
"mount" manpage.  ;->

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Mar 17 17:26:06 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 17:26:06 -0800
Subject: [buug] Linux Security Site
In-Reply-To: <38D2D215.D6535B2E@netzero.net>; from ezekielk@netzero.net on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 04:47:17PM -0800
References: <38C77A26.91BFE933@netzero.net> <20000317154146.L27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com> <38D2CC30.DC141D52@netzero.net> <20000317162716.P27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com> <38D2D215.D6535B2E@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <20000317172606.S27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at netzero.net):

>> (2) Try the breakout methods I mentioned.
> 
> That would be only if the entire system is not frozen, correct?

The functional definition of "frozen" is "no method of gaining control 
that I know of, works".

Think about it.  The more ways you're aware of to gain control, the
fewer situations in which you conclude, by default, that "the system is
frozen".

> I am not connected to any other system; purely stand-alone at
> this time. 

Well, now you know yet another reason why networks are A Good Thing.

> That is probably the most likely case. However, I rely on several
> important Internet services that heavily use Javascript...such as
> my message board provided by Delphi. (Maybe not, though, I'll
> give it another try.)

You might consider this a hint from the gods -- since, after all,
Javascript is Evil and Must Die.  ;->

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Mar 17 21:57:00 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:57:00 -0800
Subject: [buug] Netscape crashes
Message-ID: <20000317215659.B30101@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Zeke, I forgot to mention one other aspect of Netscape 4.x for Linux:
Most, and possibly all, versions have memory leaks.  That is, as you
use them, over time, they allocate for themselves more and more 
system RAM.

Linux has very efficient swap-partition (and swapfile) management, 
but, if/when you utterly exhaust real + virtual memory, the Linux
kernel tends to crash hard.  This is expected behaviour, and is 
not catastropic under normal circumstances.  Ordinarily, a *ix user
will notice applications that start grabbing gobs of system memory,
because he runs the ps or top commands (or even the "free" command)
on occasion, and notices such things -- or he runs them subject to
the shell's "ulimit" built-in command.

Quoting from the manpage for "bash":

   Ulimit [...] Provides control over the resources available to
   the shell and to processes started by it, on systems that allow
   such control.

There are several relevant options to the ulimit command to specify
different aspects of memory allocation; I don't pretend to understand
them, but I haven't studied them.

In any event, my point is that the symptoms you describe are 
consistent with Netscape grabbing increasing amounts of RAM to the
point where the kernel dies.  You might check the "free" command
occasionally, to see if this candidate explanation holds water.

If it does, you could try using a different version of Netscape.
Or just shower good wishes on the Mozilla team.

-- 
Cheers,              "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the 
Rick Moen             terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your 
rick (at) linuxmafia.com   option, any later version."  -- Seth David Schoen



From mhigashi at hooked.net  Fri Mar 17 22:00:34 2000
From: mhigashi at hooked.net (Michael Higashi)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:00:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [buug] Netscape crashes
In-Reply-To: <20000317215659.B30101@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10003172158330.19874-100000@frinky>

On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Rick Moen wrote:

> Zeke, I forgot to mention one other aspect of Netscape 4.x for Linux:
> Most, and possibly all, versions have memory leaks.  That is, as you
> use them, over time, they allocate for themselves more and more 
> system RAM.

Could it also be due to borderline-bad hardware? I notice at the
CoffeeNet, one system seems to hang in Netscape much more frequently 
then other supposedly identical systems.

Mike




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Mar 17 22:09:52 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:09:52 -0800
Subject: [buug] Netscape crashes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10003172158330.19874-100000@frinky>; from mhigashi@hooked.net on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 10:00:34PM -0800
References: <20000317215659.B30101@uncle-enzo.imat.com> <Pine.GSO.4.10.10003172158330.19874-100000@frinky>
Message-ID: <20000317220951.C30101@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Michael Higashi (mhigashi at hooked.net):

> Could it also be due to borderline-bad hardware? I notice at the
> CoffeeNet, one system seems to hang in Netscape much more frequently 
> then other supposedly identical systems.

You're absolutely right.

Zeke, if you happen to have Netscape up most of the time, and suffer
crashes because of (say) a RAM defect, then you might wrongly blame
hardware-caused crashes on the software you happened to be using
at that time.

This might correlate in an especially misleading manner if it _is_ 
a RAM defect that Netscape happens to hit more than most applications
because it's larger in RAM than most.

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Sat Mar 18 18:07:10 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:07:10 -0800
Subject: [buug] Excellent Newbie Linux Site
References: <38C6BAB5.56EB8A3D@netzero.net> <20000317161859.M27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com> <38D2CF67.C37C504C@netzero.net> <20000317172203.R27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <38D4364E.F48EB2FC@netzero.net>

Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> Quoting Zeke Krahlin (ezekielk at netzero.net):
> 
> > I also have the experience of Netscape causing the entire system
> > to freeze...which then forces me to do a cold reboot.
> 
> _If_ you've exhausted all the ways to get to a usable shell, then by a
> functional definition the system is frozen.  But, I have a feeling you
> weren't familiar with some.

Sounds logical to me, considering I'm a "Linux newbie". But
Netscape *is notorious for being a memory hog, and rather sloppy
in other aspects, such as javascript. My impression is that the
latest versions of Netscape have ignored any improvements for its
Linux users...for it behaves just as lousy in Linux, as it does
for me in Windoze. Including the latest version, which I'm now
using: 4.7

However, Netscape's behavior is markably improved, since I've
shut down it Java/Javascript features, per your suggestion. This
proves to be an inconvenience--albeit minor--when accessing
certain Internet services. (For one, I can't move any messages
from inbox to anywhere else, in Yahoo's e-mail service.) So far,
Netscape has not crashed at all, with java stuff turned
"off"...but only time will tell for sure.

> Ah.  Well, you see, a "DOS" (FAT) partition lacks anywhere to put
> ownership and permission information, so a default gets applied at
> the time of mounting.  You can specify/override the default rights mask
> and ownership as options to the mount command (or, therefore, in
> /etc/fstab).  The usual sort of cryptic details can be found in the
> "mount" manpage.  ;->

Since installing Mandrake 7.0 (which I did three days ago), I am
quite satisfied with the present arrangement: "paranoid" security
level. This is exactly what I was trying to do, playing with
"chmod"...before I realized there is also "chown" to deal with,
too. I didn't want any user, except root, to have even "read"
access to anywhere but the users' own directory. If, as user, I
really want to view or edit a data file on a DOS partition, I can
just call up the "super user" file manager in KDE--plug in the
root password, and I'm on my way.

My goal, before this year is out, is to switch to pure Linux (no
dual boot), and only run Windoze when needed, via network. Since
you explained so well the advantage of such an arrangement, I am
eager to reach that goal.


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
http://www.weak.org/buug/
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275


__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Sat Mar 18 18:16:29 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:16:29 -0800
Subject: [buug] Linux Security Site
References: <38C77A26.91BFE933@netzero.net> <20000317154146.L27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com> <38D2CC30.DC141D52@netzero.net> <20000317162716.P27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com> <38D2D215.D6535B2E@netzero.net> <20000317172606.S27946@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <38D4387D.31B0C883@netzero.net>

Rick Moen wrote:
> Well, now you know yet another reason why networks are A Good Thing.

Picture this: Martha Stewart teaching Unix. "It's a good thing." 
:b

> You might consider this a hint from the gods -- since, after all,
> Javascript is Evil and Must Die.  ;->

And thus I must agree. Do you find cgi scripts a better way to
go, or just a variation of this Evil?
How can a service like Hushmail guarantee security, when it runs
javascript to decode/encode one's messages? Isn't this kind of a
bad approach? They promote it, based on the fact that the message
is encoded on your own hard drive, not theirs...thus avoiding
en-route interception of non-encoded data. It *sounds good, in
concept...but in practice, being javascript, I have my questions.

What happens when one wants to run an e-commerce site, and pays
for a "reliable" service like CyberCash? Do they use javascript
or cgi? Or something else?

---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
http://www.weak.org/buug/
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275


__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Sat Mar 18 18:20:25 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:20:25 -0800
Subject: [buug] Netscape crashes
References: <20000317215659.B30101@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <38D43969.F950B20D@netzero.net>

Rick Moen wrote:
> Zeke, I forgot to mention one other aspect of Netscape 4.x for Linux:
> Most, and possibly all, versions have memory leaks.  That is, as you
> use them, over time, they allocate for themselves more and more
> system RAM.

I'm aware of this problem. But the freeze-ups have been occurring
after only a short time using Netscape...say, about 20 minutes
from loading.

> Ordinarily, a *ix user
> will notice applications that start grabbing gobs of system memory,
> because he runs the ps or top commands (or even the "free" command)
> on occasion, and notices such things -- or he runs them subject to
> the shell's "ulimit" built-in command.

Thanks for that info; I'll make this a habit.

> If it does, you could try using a different version of Netscape.
> Or just shower good wishes on the Mozilla team.

I'll choose the latter, should it come to that. So far, keeping
java junk "off" seems to be the ticket. Netscape v. 7 is just as
lousy as 4.6, I have discovered.


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
http://www.weak.org/buug/
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275


__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From michaelauman at thegrid.net  Sat Mar 18 21:57:03 2000
From: michaelauman at thegrid.net (Michael Uman)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 21:57:03 -0800
Subject: [buug] RE: Buug digest, Vol 1 #37 - 15 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200003182000.MAA17048@weak.org>
Message-ID: <000001bf9167$f3494eb0$0200fea9@hub.localhost>

Hello,

I have noticed that while running Netscape 4.0 which came with my Mandrake
distro, that my swap space just keeps on getting eatten up. I have allocated
about 80M to swap space, and after running NS for about 1/2 hour my swap
space is 'virtually' gone. Even after I close Netscape, the swap space goes
down, but not as much as it should. I have even killed all remaining
Netscape deamons which appear to be sitting around waiting for mail or
something.

I like Netscape, but hasn't anyone working on the Open Source Mozilla
project plugged this bug yet? It seems like a debugging tool should be able
to catch this mistake. In the meantime, I have been using KMail which runs
in the KDE desktop. This EMail client is pretty useful for standard email. I
used Eudora many years ago and I may end up checking it out again.

I am still using my Windoze NT machine for most of my Email now. I have just
opened a new account for my Linux ISP {OneMain sux for Linux support, or any
support for that matter... IMHO}.

Later,
Michael Uman
Sr Software Engineer
Sonic Solutions




From ezekielk at netzero.net  Sat Mar 18 23:02:55 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 23:02:55 -0800
Subject: [buug] Free Linux-Based E-Commerce Site from China
Message-ID: <38D47B9F.FCEA99CA@netzero.net>

While searching for a good e-commerce site for a client, I
stumbled onto one that is Linux-based, in Hong Kong...and it's
free!

I figured Linux-heads might be curious about this...especially as
regards China's firm stand *against Micro$oft, and equally firm
stand *for Linux. I've only begun checking it out, myself:

	http://www.webforce.com.hk/


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From jammer  Sun Mar 19 08:33:53 2000
From: jammer (Jon McClintock)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 08:33:53 -0800
Subject: [buug] Free Linux-Based E-Commerce Site from China
In-Reply-To: <38D47B9F.FCEA99CA@netzero.net>; from ezekielk@netzero.net on Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 11:02:55PM -0800
References: <38D47B9F.FCEA99CA@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <20000319083353.A25345@weak.org>

On Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 11:02:55PM -0800, Zeke Krahlin wrote:
> I figured Linux-heads might be curious about this...especially as
> regards China's firm stand *against Micro$oft, and equally firm
> stand *for Linux. I've only begun checking it out, myself:
> 
> 	http://www.webforce.com.hk/

I dunno. Considering China's firm stand against the western world, and
their strong use of monitoring, I wouldn't trust it.

Monitoring your own web traffic (i.e., free ISPs) is one thing. Monitoring
your clients credit card information is another.

-Jon *clink* *clink* (My two cents)




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sun Mar 19 11:38:05 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:38:05 -0800
Subject: [buug] RE: Buug digest, Vol 1 #37 - 15 msgs
In-Reply-To: <000001bf9167$f3494eb0$0200fea9@hub.localhost>; from michaelauman@thegrid.net on Sat, Mar 18, 2000 at 09:57:03PM -0800
References: <200003182000.MAA17048@weak.org> <000001bf9167$f3494eb0$0200fea9@hub.localhost>
Message-ID: <20000319113804.I30101@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Michael Uman (michaelauman at thegrid.net):

> ...after running NS for about 1/2 hour my swap space is 'virtually'
> gone. Even after I close Netscape, the swap space goes down, but not
> as much as it should.

The swapper will eventually catch up, in my experience.  

> I have even killed all remaining Netscape deamons which appear to be
> sitting around waiting for mail or something.

Hmm.  If you have multiple Netscape Communicator/Navigator processes
sitting around in your process table, there's something wrong, right
there.  The browser doesn't have any daemon processes.

> I like Netscape, but hasn't anyone working on the Open Source Mozilla
> project plugged this bug yet?

Mozilla Milestone 14 doesn't leak memory on _my_ system.  But don't
expect too much, since it's still in late alpha.

They might manage to declare beta status by the Mozilla 3.0 party, on
April 6.

> It seems like a debugging tool should be able to catch this mistake.
> In the meantime, I have been using KMail which runs in the KDE
> desktop. This EMail client is pretty useful for standard email. I used
> Eudora many years ago and I may end up checking it out again.

Eudora still strikes me as a small miracle of design.  However, my 
personal preference, these days, is Mutt.   http://www.mutt.org/
Threaded operation, colour highlighting, does absolutely everything,
extremely customisable, and it's free software under the GNU General
Public Licence.

It's so customisable that, for example, users invoking "pine" on my
system actually end up using mutt with a pine-style configuration
file, and it's a pretty close imitation.  (Pine itself is not free
software.)

-- 
Cheers,     Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, 
Rick Moen   not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed,
rick (at) linuxmafia.com  modern-American-English-usage-improvement association



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Mon Mar 20 22:01:12 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:01:12 -0800
Subject: [buug] Transbay/UC Computers this Thursday
Message-ID: <38D71028.F8EC316A@netzero.net>

Reminder to all BUUG members:

This coming Thursday, March 23, is the fourth Thursday of the
month...which means we'll hold our meeting at BAFUG's location:

	2569 Telegraph Avenue, Berkeley

For more complete directions, see our home page:

	http://www.weak.org/buug/

Meeting starts at 7:30pm; show up a little earlier (like 7:15) if
you plan to partake in the pizza-inhalation therapy. (Expect to
pay $2 for the privilege.)


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Mon Mar 20 22:26:34 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:26:34 -0800
Subject: [buug] I-opener Update
Message-ID: <38D7161A.942612DC@netzero.net>

Excellent and complete blow-by-blow description of how to
disassemble and hack your I-opener:

	http://www.adamlotz.com/iopener.html

Use this page as a visual assist to your hack (excellent photos):

	http://mischief.dyndns.org/iopener/

Subscribe to this list, for your daily I-opener fix (very
active):

	http://snoopy.net/mailman/listinfo/iopener

---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Tue Mar 21 01:34:41 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 01:34:41 -0800
Subject: [buug] Re: I-opener Update
References: <38D7161A.942612DC@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <38D74231.BCEDE003@netzero.net>

This guy (Andrew Gillian) has the info for booting up I-opener
with NetBSD, without opening the case (no HD). Go to:

	http://mail-index.netbsd.org/current-users/2000/03/13/0006.html


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From jammer at weak.org  Tue Mar 21 09:51:16 2000
From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:51:16 -0800
Subject: [buug] [{BAFUG-A} Headcount for Berkeley BAFUG]
Message-ID: <20000321095116.A246@weak.org>

----- Forwarded message from Josef Grosch <jgrosch at mooseriver.com> -----

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:11:11 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch at mooseriver.com>
To: announce at bafug.org
Subject: {BAFUG-A} Headcount for Berkeley BAFUG

Heads up!
                                                                       
    
I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays
meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to 
get. If you could respond by Thursday 6pm it would be very helpful.
    
Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue.
                               
    
    
Josef  

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.4
jgrosch at MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses

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From feedle at feedle.net  Wed Mar 22 17:55:58 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:55:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [buug] Hey Zeke...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000322174911.1995E-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>

Can we add some text on (or near) the buug-admin mailing address link at
the bottom of the page stating something to the effect of "No Unsolicited
Commercial E-Mail", perhaps linked to a document that states that the
buug-admin at weak.org E-Mail should _NOT_ be used to mail any press
releases, product announcements, etc. that have not been specifically
reqested by us?  Perhaps also include a warning that complaints will be
filed with their upstream if they do...

Better suggestion: Remove the E-Mail link entirely, and link to a
web-based form they fill out that THEN mailed by the script (so the E-Mail
address is not exposed to spam harvesters)...

If you need help implementing the latter suggestion, please let me know.

-Chris





From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Mar 22 17:59:07 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 17:59:07 -0800
Subject: [buug] Hey Zeke...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000322174911.1995E-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>; from feedle@feedle.net on Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 05:55:58PM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000322174911.1995E-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <20000322175907.O24662@uncle-enzo.imat.com>

Quoting Christopher Sullivan (feedle at feedle.net):

> Can we add some text on (or near) the buug-admin mailing address link at
> the bottom of the page stating something to the effect of "No Unsolicited
> Commercial E-Mail", perhaps linked to a document that states that the
> buug-admin at weak.org E-Mail should _NOT_ be used to mail any press
> releases, product announcements, etc. that have not been specifically
> reqested by us?

So, only _bad_ people will do it, then.  Oh, I get it!

-- 
Cheers,              "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the 
Rick Moen             terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your 
rick (at) linuxmafia.com   option, any later version."  -- Seth David Schoen



From feedle at feedle.net  Wed Mar 22 18:02:49 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:02:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [buug] Hey Zeke...
In-Reply-To: <20000322175907.O24662@uncle-enzo.imat.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000322180010.20756A-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>


On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Rick Moen wrote:

> So, only _bad_ people will do it, then.  Oh, I get it!

Heh.  No, actually, this is an issue with a recent spam complaint.  Their
upstream provider checked our website, and stated that since it was a
press release, and there was no indication that press releases were not
acceptable and it seemed appropriate and relevant, they would take no
action against them.  Had we had such a statement, I was informed that
their service would have been suspended.

This was Global Crossing, BTW, a company that generically does act against
reasonable spam complaints.

 




From jammer at weak.org  Fri Mar 24 09:22:05 2000
From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock)
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:22:05 -0800
Subject: [buug] New Linux Distribution for Visually Impaired Users
Message-ID: <20000324092205.A800@weak.org>

This sounds interesting; I wonder how it handles non-standard hardware like
brail readers, etc.

http://www.linuxmall.com/news/features/000322zipspeak

Software designers are continuing to make breakthroughs in the
development of software for blind or visually impaired users. A collaboration
with Speakup screen reader enables Slackware's ZipSlack Linux to talk its
user through installation and startup without sighted help--and the Blinux
(Blind + Linux) subscriber list promptly brought this new application to its
target audience. 

[...]

-Jon



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Sat Mar 25 15:37:45 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 15:37:45 -0800
Subject: [buug] I-Opener on "TechNow News" tonight!
Message-ID: <38DD4DC9.40D8EE7@netzero.net>

3:20pm, Saturday: I *think I just heard, on Channel 20, something
like:

"For just $99 and a screwdriver, you can have your own complete
PC. Learn about it this evening on TechNow News".

Perhaps my ears deceived me...I was washing dishes with my back
turned to the TV. But I have set my VCR to record that show, just
in case. TechNow News airs today (Saturday) at 6pm to 6:30pm, on
channel 20 UHF. (In the San Francisco area.)


---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Sat Mar 25 21:54:52 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 21:54:52 -0800
Subject: [buug] I-Opener on "TechNow News" tonight!
References: <38DD4DC9.40D8EE7@netzero.net>
Message-ID: <38DDA62C.BE8906DA@netzero.net>

Zeke Krahlin wrote:
> "For just $99 and a screwdriver, you can have your own complete
> PC. Learn about it this evening on TechNow News".

Okay, I saw that segment...brief and disappointing. They only
mentioned that one could change the I-opener into a real PC, with
some tech knowledge and a little elbow grease. Other than showing
the Linux-Hacker website, there was *no discussion of any other
aspect about this product (including Netpliance's claim that
their system is now "hacker-proof"). What a waste of air time!

---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From feedle at feedle.net  Mon Mar 27 18:53:34 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Christopher Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:53:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] article on open source
In-Reply-To: <74.243e0a4.260ebc62@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000327180329.21350F-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>


On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 TonStanco at aol.com wrote:

>  Am I the only person who thinks that developers should be paid a royalty
>  based on the number of accepted lines each developer contributes to a program
>  that's shipped and sold? Of all the responses I got on the first question,
>  only 2 discussed "how" any royalty system could be done and they both
>  concluded that it couldn't. Isn't a royalty system that compensates on the
>  basis of the monatary success of a program better than being paid a fixed 
> salary or
>  not paid at all?

I think it's ultimately up to the coder in question.  The model you speak
of already exists: it's called "shareware," perhaps with a few minor
changes.  

You seem completely stuck on the concept that money makes the world go
'round.  Maybe this exists from your background as a business lawyer, I
don't know.  

Many in the open-source community are doing this because it is something
they love.  They aren't _SEEKING_ money for their work.  The few that are
seeking money are getting it, granted perhaps not in the "monies paid for
services performed" paradigm you seem stuck on.

>  As President Clinton recently said, "don t make the perfect the enemy of the
>  good." Even though a perfect royalty system may be impossible, one that
>  imperfectly pays developers is still a very good thing, I think, as long as
>  it keeps the core values of open source. More money to open source developers
>  only means more developers for the movement. Who would work for proprietary
>  software if they could get paid in open source? Open source is a superior
>  development model, after all, that empowers all developers, because it allows
>  them the freedom to see, copy and modify the code. Peer review both helps the
>  experienced developers and mentors the new ones coming along.

I disagree with the assertion that open source is universally a superior
development model.  Open source is a perfect development model for
commodity software, such as operating systems, for the reasons that have
recieved  mention.  However, a large body of software does not benefit
from the open source model.  The easiest example of this is games... the
majority of "good" games are developed in a _VERY_ closed-source
environment.  Heck, a lot of the "cutting edge" in gaming occurs on CLOSED
SYSTEMS such as the Sony Playstation2 and SEGA Dreamcast, where the very
hardware is screwed shut with proprietary screws.

 
>  Also, aren't open applications better than closed proprietary applications?
>  So why does open source tolerate anything closed?

Becuase a lot of us in the Open Source Movement understand that there is
no such thing as a one-size-fits-all license agreement.  Closed source
does have it's place.  That place may not be on our computers, but we
understand that others may even desire that licensing model.

There are some excellent examples of closed-source superiority.  As much
as many of us think Microsoft Windows sucks, they have a superior user
interface to any UN*X platform.  They also have done an excellent job (so
good, in fact, that the DoJ is worried about anti-trust) of integrating
their OS with the Internet and their applications suite.

On other fronts, however, closed source has lossage.  The commonly
accepted joke in the industry is there is no greater oxymoron than the
words "Microsoft security".  The blue-screen-of-death has seen much play
not only in the hacker subculture but in general society as well (see
recent Cathy comic strips as an example).

> 
>  Will money ruin the open source movement? People originally also said that 
> money
>  would ruin the Internet. Has it? Why is open source different? 

Mu.

Money did not "ruin" the Internet.  Before Yahoo! and AOL jacked in, the
Internet was a fascinating place, but a bit intelectually shallow.  There
was great information on computer science and the things that the hackish
culture embraced, but there wasn't a lot of... say, for example, spousal
abuse web-boards around.  Or, gay and lesbian support sites.  Or, even
commercial content.  It was a great place to play multi-user text
adventures, but diety help you if you were looking for consumer-based
information on alternative AIDS hypotheses or alternative religions.  In
fact, if you weren't a college-age male engineering student, chances are
you couldn't even gain access to the Internet.

The same will happen to open source.

Money will widen the horizon.  It may make some of the "depth" go away (I
do see things like LaTeX, for example, vanishing), but at the profit of
broadening the horizons.

Ten years ago, open source consisted of a bunch of tools you could get off
of 9-track tape (or heaven forbid, by uucp or FidoNET), and maybe get them
working on whatever bitty box you were trying to get working.  I remember
trying to get an early version of emacs compiled on my AT&T 7300 UNIX PC,
after uucp'ing the sources from, if I remember right, ucbvax.  

Today, open source has four COMPLETE OPERATING SYSTEMS (Linux and the BSD
triplets) with two different tool sets (GNU and BSD), plus a fifth on the
horizon (GNU HURD).  There are a lot of major websites that feature
hundreds (thousands?) of similarly licensed programs for these OS'es
spread across the Internet.  Even closed-source companies are beginning to
port their software (namely, at the moment, games companies) over to
Linux.  Why?

Thar's gold in them thar hills.
 
Like the Internet, there will be problems (the Internet had spam, AOL's
users inherent lack of netiquette, and the continual propogation of urban
legends).  They are not insurmountable.

We will survive.

> How will open source fight the inevitable software company backlash? Does 
> anyone 
> really think that software companies will go quietly into the night? Survival 
> is the 
> most natural instinct and corporate law actually requires management to do 
> what is 
> best for the shareholders. Does anyone remember Halloween I? Do you really 
> think 
> that Microsoft (after the trial, of course) will not use copyright and 
> patents against 
> open source? How does open source wage such a battle without a revenue model 
> to 
> help finance the war? 

Open source has already won the war we came here to fight.  We wanted
better software, and we have it.

The only way Microsoft (and other closed-source companies) can "win" is to
produce software that equals the quality and performace of the open source
products they compete with.  No amount of FUD is going to change the fact
that the general public believes that Microsoft's software is defective.
Microsoft's continued inability to produce an OS that dosen't have stupid
problems (like a 49-day epoch, for example) proves that they can't win.

They're not even putting up a good fight.

It's probably (sadly) true that at least 50% of the computing public will
make uninformed buying decisions, and buy whatever the guy at Circuit City
(or Compaq, or whoever the salesman is) says is good.  This will, unless
something drastic happen in the Microsoft anti-trust trial, usually mean
an Intel-based PC running Microsoft's OS.  

Do the company names "Atari", "Commodore-Amiga", and "Apple" mean
anything to you?  

All three of these companies produced superior machines, both technically
and financially, superior products to the Intel boxes of the late-80's and
early-90's.  

Atari (Computer) Corp. merged with JTS, a hard-disk manufacturer, and
largely exists as a paper-company within Hasbro... primarily only as a
"brand" for Hasbro Interactive.

Commodore Business Machines went bankrupt, and their assets and the
company name have been bounced around, first with a European consumer
electronics manufacturer (who also later went bankrupt), later with
Gateway 2000, Inc.  The Amiga computer does live on, but Commodore
Business Machines, as a company, is long since lost to the pages of
computer industry history.

And Apple?  Didn't Bill Gates give them some pocket change a while back to
keep their company afloat?


The point here is having a superior product does not guarantee market
success.  Open source will be no different.  The advantage open source has
is since it does not need to draw a profit to survive, it will continue.
Atari Corporation and Commodore Business Machines, both publically traded
companies at the time of their demise, did not have that luxury.


>  My leanings are:
> 
> 1.  Developers ought to be paid. Software is the most important product in
>  the world today. Developers are a new nobility based on brains. This is the
>  first chance the world has had to have a real worldwide meritocracy. This is
>  especially important for people in the developing world, who could earn a
>  place in the world economy by producing software for which they are paid
>  equally to everyone else.

Developers can be paid, if they so choose.  If they choose not to, that's
their business.  Open source allows them to choose not to.

>  2.  Only large and medium corporations and all governments should pay for 
> buying 
>  open source software. Small business, students and consumers should not
>  be charged. [This is not a sine qua non, but only my egalitarian bias.]

My Libertarian bias states that this is the ultimate decision of the
developer.

>  3.  ALL software should be open, including all applications.

It is the ultimate decision of the developer how his software is licensed.
If you want open software, it is your responsibility to only buy open
software.

>  4.  The most efficient royalty system is based on the lines of code produced
>  by each developer as a percentage of the total lines in a final version
>  that's shipped and sold.

This has many flaws.  An elegently written one line program can be more
effectual than a thousand lines of code.  It may have taken that
programmer a year to develop that one line, whereas it may have taken the
thousand-line programmer five minutes.  By your model, the thousand-line
programmer would get paid more than the one-liner.

This is fundamentally wrong.

> 5. Property rights are fundamentally important. Getting them wrong caused the 
> Russian people to lose 3 generations. Capitalism works best at least until we 
> get to 
> the point where no one has to work anymore, even if it is not perfect.

"The market will sort it out."

Let the MARKET decide whether or not closed vs. open source is the best
licensing model.

Unfortunately, with the recent proposed changes to copyright law finding
it's way through many state legislatures, this argument may be moot.

Open and closed source need to fight it out on a level playing field,
government not helping either side.  

Again, I think your assertion that we live in an either/or world is
extreme.  Open and closed source need not be mutually exclusive of each
other.

Licensing is ultimately a contract between licensor and licensee.  If they
decide on closed-source, so let it be.

> 6. Software companies are dinosaurs and will be replaced by open source 
> development because the power is in the developers (at the base of the 
> pyramid) not 
> in the companies (with the few at the top). This is different from 
> traditional 
> industrial companies that own the necessary capital assets to produce the 
> joint 
> product, so those companies have the power in those situations. With 
> traditional 
> industrial companies if people want to work, they needed access to the 
> capital assets 
> to do their job. This is why third world countries have to wait for 
> industrial 
> companies to invest before their citizens can work. This is the fundamental 
> power 
> shift between the old economy and the new economy.  In the new economy, there 
> are very limited capital assets involved for people to do their jobs, so 
> people don't 
> need companies anymore. They can perform their jobs without the corporate 
> eggshell. This is what open source has shown the world. It's quite impressive 
> actually, if you think about it. Corporations have organized major human 
> activity 
> for a couple of hundred years now. The Internet and open source prove this is 
> no 
> longer necessary, that people over the Internet can organize themselves. 


In response to the last bit, I think your basic assumption that
closed-source will go the way of the dinosaur is flawed.  Closed source
has a place, and it will continue to fill niche markets for as long as we
are using binary computers.

...

Can I make an observation?  I haven't looked at your message headers, but
your use of AOL as a reply address places an interesting spin on all
this.  Since I know of no AOL client for an open-source operating system,
this brings me to an interesting observation.

If you are such a proponent of open source, why aren't you using the
software?  You have asserted many times that software _MUST_ be open.
Yet, you are using as your primary Internet provider a company that uses
the ultimate of a closed-source model: proprietary software, running on a
proprietary OS, using proprietary communications methods.

So, why do you choose not to practice what you are preaching?  Are you
just playing devil's advocate, and you really don't feel the way you
believe?  Or, is your assertion that software _MUST_ be open based on some
belief that the open software that exists out there now is inferior to
using AOL on your Windows-based PC?

I know you stated that you won't be sending back personal replies, but I
would like to hear your statement on this one.  I've been trying to figure
out why somebody who is staunchly an advocate (apparently) that
Software_must_be_free (tm) isn't putting his money where his mouth is.
Please get back to me on this one issue, if nothing else.

Just curious, and as always, hope this provides you with more info.  FYI:
Since a lot of BUUG members have asked me about how this is going, I'm
forwarding this reply to the BUUG mailing list.

-Chris Sullivan




From ezekielk at iname.com  Tue Mar 28 19:53:53 2000
From: ezekielk at iname.com (ezekielk at iname.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:53:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [buug] Re: I-opener Update
Message-ID: <00032822535322.28455@weba1.iname.net>

Replacing QNX in flash RAM, with Linux, this message from the
i-opener mailing list
<http://snoopy.net/mailman/listinfo/iopener>:

---begin article:

Message: 14
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:42:06 -0500
From: Brian Haskell <bhaskell at tufts.edu>
Subject: [iopener] possible Linux Distro
To: iopener at scsiboy.com

http://www.emjembedded.com/linux/dimmpc.html
White Dwarf Linux
Developed by: EMJ Embedded Systems
Description: White Dwarf Linux was compiled to make 
development with
JUMPtec's DIMM-PC and MOPS boards easier.
White Dwarf Linux is named for a White Dwarf Star. 
White Dwarf Stars are
small but extremely dense stars. white dwarf linux is 
small enough to load
in 16MB of Flash, but dense enough to contain the 
features that embedded
applications demand including:

*A fully graphical package-based installer
*TCP/ip tools including ftp, telnet, ping, hostname, 
ftpd, telnetd
*Mailx to allow sending and receiving of email
*A full-featured terminal emulation package
*A stripped down Apache 1.3.11 web server
*gcc development tools
*ppp drivers and scripts
*vim, a modern vi replacement

---end of article



-- 
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin
http://surf.to/gayislam


--------------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://netscape.iname.com



From ezekielk at netzero.net  Thu Mar 30 04:16:10 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:16:10 -0800
Subject: [buug] Highly Recommended Linux Ref. Book
Message-ID: <38E3458A.9CA0C342@netzero.net>

A member of the I-opener mailing list, gave kudos to a new Linux
reference book:

---begin kudos:

I just picked up a *great* Linux desk reference  yesterday at
Fry's  Electronics.  Its the 'Linux Desk Reference', by Scott 
Hawkins.  Amazon has  it (read the reviews) at:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130163910/qid=954259809/sr=1-59/103-3101241-9139026

It has all the commands, clearly explained, neatly  organized,
with examples, tips, and diagrams to explain each one.  Its
pretty  easy to understand, and really helped a lot last night
when i was setting up  my sound card and  needed to know the
right commands.  Its a high quality book printed on good paper,
not the cheap stuff, so it will be pretty durable.  Plus, even
though it is 545 pages, its not a large book like most other
references, so can be 
hidden away easily next to your monitor for quick reference.

---end of kudos

---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275
_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From shagarty at tisny.com  Thu Mar 30 14:38:45 2000
From: shagarty at tisny.com (Stephen Hagarty)
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:38:45 -0800
Subject: [buug] Apache/Linux
Message-ID: <852568B2.007C7CC1.00@tisnotes.tisny.com>


If you know of anyone that wants to do a short term contract setting up
Linux and Apache servers and some Perl programming have them call Arthur
James at 408-859-4413 or email to arthur at zoxbox.com






From ezekielk at netzero.net  Fri Mar 31 06:17:26 2000
From: ezekielk at netzero.net (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:17:26 -0800
Subject: [buug] Appeal to ethical hackers
Message-ID: <38E4B376.D26D9B17@netzero.net>

As some here already know, I am embroiled with another hacker
(also an M$ zealot) who has sabotaged my FreeNetCubs board twice
so far, and continues to siphon off new members to his own board.
I have since made an appeal to the Delphi community at large
(which hosts my board). Anyone who'd find it interesting to read
my appeal, go to:
	
	http://www5.50megs.com/fnc/appeal.htm

Since posting my appeal (to over 50 hacker-related boards on
Delphi), one sysop has come forward to look into matters. I have
also posted my appeal to several hacker groups on Usenet. If
nothing else, it will provide an entertaining diversion from
those of you who need to take a break from intensive programming
and number crunching.  ;)

---
Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way 
out of a virtual paper bag") Krahlin 
---
FreeNetCubs BBS & Chat (what's left of it)
http://www5.50megs.com/fnc
---
ICQ: 8485235
Fax: 507-226-4426
Voice: 888-830-5746 x8275


_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html



From jammer  Fri Mar 31 10:25:10 2000
From: jammer (Jon McClintock)
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:25:10 -0800
Subject: [buug] To the person with the Libretto
Message-ID: <20000331102510.A16883@weak.org>

I don't know if the person who brought the Libretto to last night's meeting
is on the list, but if you are, the following link may be of use:

  http://ecg.mit.edu/george/libretto.html

-Jon