From ezekielk at weak.org  Sat Sep  9 23:48:55 2000
From: ezekielk at weak.org (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 23:48:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Zeke's Audio Interviews
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009092327560.6331-100000@weak.org>

My audio interview website is now up and running. These are interviews of
homeless and other street folk, gay men and women, and the severely
disabled...all in the Berkeley/S.F. Area. Here's the redirectional URL:

     http://surf.to/zekesaudio

and the authentic URL:

     http://zekesaudio.myqth.com/

I trust y'all use a banner buster, as this is a free service with a pop-up
advertisement. The other option was to embed the damn ad into each web
page...and I *hate that even more! But this free service provides
unlimited web space...very important for large media files, on an
ever-expanding site.

I have not had the good luck to tack down a *free streaming audio site,
yet...so my work-around is to chop up the sound files into 10-minute
segments, which creates separate files no larger than 1.4mb each.

---
"Zeke Krahlin" <ezekielk at weak.org> 
Linux: the people's OS.
A billion communists can't be wrong!




From ezekielk at weak.org  Mon Sep 11 22:47:12 2000
From: ezekielk at weak.org (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Inexpensive DSL
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009112241180.26358-100000@weak.org>

The Winfire free DSL service just sent me an announcement that they now
have DSL for my area. They are free w/ad banner plus $199 modem for a
144kbps connection.

But they also offer for $19.95/month plus $99 modem, no banner ads at
384kbps connection. I can afford that! Winfire's home page is at:

www.winfire.com/

Any opinions, pro or con, about this service?


---
LAVENDAR VELVET REVOLUTION
Disgusted with our "choices" for next U.S. president?
Write me in: Ezekiel J. Krahlin, gay activist,
homeless and civil rights advocate. To make
an informed decision about me, peruse my website:
http://surf.to/gaybible
---
"Zeke Krahlin" <ezekielk at weak.org> 
Linux: the people's OS.
A billion communists can't be wrong!




From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Sep 12 11:38:17 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:38:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Inexpensive DSL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009112241180.26358-100000@weak.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009121132120.6758-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>


On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Zeke Krahlin wrote:

> The Winfire free DSL service just sent me an announcement that they now
> have DSL for my area. They are free w/ad banner plus $199 modem for a
> 144kbps connection.
> 
> But they also offer for $19.95/month plus $99 modem, no banner ads at
> 384kbps connection. I can afford that! Winfire's home page is at:

They also offer full-speed ADSL for around $34.95, which is cheaper than
what's available from PacificBell/SBC and other local (covad) providers.

> Any opinions, pro or con, about this service?

Here's my opinions.

Their AUP is pretty standard, as is their TOS document.  I see no
indications in either that they are data-mining.. in fact, their privacy
document indicates that they collect aggregate information, but not
personally identifiable info (except where required to provide you with
service).

Their Bandwidth-On-Demand service is intriguing.  It might be worth
getting it for that alone.

It would appear that they are providing service through Pacific
Bell/SBC.  By all indications, SBC's DSL service has been acceptable, but
not perfect.  On my circuit, I get about 2-4 hours a month of downtime,
and about 12 hours a month of "funnies" (i.e. routing problems where I
can't exit PB's network certian "directions").  I consider 2-4 hours of
downtime well within the acceptable limits for a DSL circuit.

Let us know what happens.

-Fedl




From jammer at weak.org  Tue Sep 12 12:12:48 2000
From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:12:48 -0700
Subject: [buug] Inexpensive DSL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009112241180.26358-100000@weak.org>; from ezekielk@weak.org on Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:47:12PM -0700
References: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009112241180.26358-100000@weak.org>
Message-ID: <20000912121248.A26902@weak.org>

On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 10:47:12PM -0700, Zeke Krahlin wrote:
> But they also offer for $19.95/month plus $99 modem, no banner ads at
> 384kbps connection. I can afford that! Winfire's home page is at:
> 
> www.winfire.com/
> 
> Any opinions, pro or con, about this service?

http://www.winfire.com/support/get_article.asp?Article=23


             Winfire is currently only available on the Windows 
             9X, 2000, and NT operating systems. We
             will save your registration information and 
             contact you as other platforms are supported. 

Hmm....

-Jon



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep 12 13:14:00 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:14:00 -0700
Subject: [buug] Inexpensive DSL
In-Reply-To: <20000912121248.A26902@weak.org>; from jammer@weak.org on Tue, Sep 12, 2000 at 12:12:48PM -0700
References: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009112241180.26358-100000@weak.org> <20000912121248.A26902@weak.org>
Message-ID: <20000912131400.C13601@linuxmafia.com>

begin  Jon McClintock quotation:

> http://www.winfire.com/support/get_article.asp?Article=23
> 
> 
>              Winfire is currently only available on the Windows 
>              9X, 2000, and NT operating systems. We
>              will save your registration information and 
>              contact you as other platforms are supported. 

More often than not, assertions like this are fundamentally mistaken,
e.g., confusing "Winfire" the aDSL service with the inevitable flashy
"Winfire" software bundle best used to level furniture.

But, seriously, who would want a business relationship with such a flaky
outfit?  If you can't afford a real provider, get a job.  Life's too
short to nickle-and-dime yourself into dealing with such outfits.

Look, guys, the bandwidth elves are a myth:  It costs money.

-- 
Cheers,                   "Look at Rick:  He has Whitfield Diffie's key  
Rick Moen                  and John Gilmore's brain."
rick at linuxmafia.com                          -- Chris di Bona 



From ezekielk at weak.org  Wed Sep 13 03:52:14 2000
From: ezekielk at weak.org (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Inexpensive DSL
In-Reply-To: <20000912131400.C13601@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009130344370.19855-100000@weak.org>

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Rick Moen wrote:

> More often than not, assertions like this are fundamentally mistaken,
> e.g., confusing "Winfire" the aDSL service with the inevitable flashy
> "Winfire" software bundle best used to level furniture.

I would tend to agree with you on this. The standards provided by a lot of
free Internet services have deteriorated considerably, in the last few
months. So it's easy to imagine all sorts of nuisances oozing out of
Winfire.

>  If you can't afford a real provider, get a job.  

I can't afford a real provider, and I have a job.

> Life's too short to nickle-and-dime yourself into dealing 
> with such outfits.

I forgot: you're a mere mortal.

> Look, guys, the bandwidth elves are a myth

Well, they don't believe in you, either! Besides, a myth is as good as a
mile.


Anyway, thanks guys for your input. Being extremely jaded over the
horrible level of services provided on the 'net--both free and retail--I
think I will just sit and wait a while longer, for when DSL goes
mainstream with real price wars.


---
LAVENDAR VELVET REVOLUTION
Disgusted with our "choices" for next U.S. president?
Write me in: Ezekiel J. Krahlin, gay activist,
homeless and civil rights advocate. To make
an informed decision about me, peruse my website:
http://surf.to/gaybible




From ezekielk at weak.org  Wed Sep 13 03:54:52 2000
From: ezekielk at weak.org (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 03:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Inexpensive DSL
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009121132120.6758-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009130352570.19855-100000@weak.org>

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Feedlebom wrote:

> They also offer full-speed ADSL for around $34.95, which is cheaper than
> what's available from PacificBell/SBC and other local (covad) providers.

Yes, it does sound awfully reasonable. Thanks for your opinions re.
Winfire.



---
LAVENDAR VELVET REVOLUTION
Disgusted with our "choices" for next U.S. president?
Write me in: Ezekiel J. Krahlin, gay activist,
homeless and civil rights advocate. To make
an informed decision about me, peruse my website:
http://surf.to/gaybible




From feedle at feedle.net  Wed Sep 13 13:16:15 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:16:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Feedle spams?  Boy, this must be important!
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009131315300.29340-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>

Hey all.

I've set up a slash site, http://engine.feedle.com.  I encourage anybody
and everybody to participate.  

-Fedl




From ezekielk at weak.org  Sat Sep 16 09:31:15 2000
From: ezekielk at weak.org (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 09:31:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Feedle spams?  Boy, this must be important!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009131315300.29340-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009160922510.18725-100000@weak.org>

On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Feedlebom wrote:

> I've set up a slash site, http://engine.feedle.com.  I encourage anybody
> and everybody to participate.  

Looks like a fun project! I'll enjoy participating, that's for sure. I
especially enjoy the voting for gay president poll: yes, no, only if it's
zeke. I chose option 3 of course, as did the sensible majority. I'd like
to see the complete list of IP numbers according to how they voted, so I
can prepare it for Daddy, who'll check it twice (see who's naughty or
nice).

Another request: allow all pro-Zeke voters to vote as many times as they
want. I found it quite frustrating to limit my vote to just
1...considering all the multiple personalities that possess my body. I'll
even accept a 2/5th vote for each personality, like we once did for people
of color (you know, the one's who built this country up to greatness). 

 ---
LAVENDER VELVET REVOLUTION
Disgusted with our "choices" for next U.S. president?
Write me in: Ezekiel J. Krahlin, gay activist,
homeless and civil rights advocate. To make
an informed decision about me, peruse my website:
http://surf.to/gaybible




From zk_lists at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 16 23:59:44 2000
From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 23:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Suggestions, Speakers welcome
Message-ID: <20000917065944.17688.qmail@web5504.mail.yahoo.com>

Hey all, this is Zeke, covering as usual for Josef Grosch for our Berkeley
BABUG meetings. Since I am spanking new to the BSD community, I have no
resources to tap, in order to get us a speaker for our meetings. Does
anyone out there have an idea whom to invite? Or would anyone herself or
himself, care to put on a demonstration or discussion?

Our breaking down into two or three groups in our last two meetings has
worked out quite well, just the same. This message is just a reminder that
I do need and appreciate feedback re. hosting interesting presentations
and guests.

--"Zeke Krahlin" <zk_lists at yahoo.com>

P.S.: Josef will return for our October meeting, but be gone again in
November, for a fabulous trip to Europe.


=====
LAVENDER-VELVET REVOLUTION!
Disgusted with our choices for next President?
Write me in: Ezekiel J. Krahlin, gay activist,
homeless and civil rights advocate. To make
an informed decision about me, peruse my website:
http://surf.to/gaybible

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/



From eric at eTranslate.com  Thu Sep 21 08:10:58 2000
From: eric at eTranslate.com (Friedman, Eric)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 08:10:58 -0700
Subject: [buug] BUUG Thursdays?
Message-ID: <CFBA57E8B311D4118A0C009027E868EC9131D8@ussfhqmbx01.etranslate.com>

I just joined this list and am wondering if someone can tell
me a bit about the Thursday evening BUUG gatherings in Berkeley.
Are they well attended?  What sort of format (lecture, demo,
free for all) is preferred?  What topics/speakers are lined up?

Also: is it a dinner event or just drinks?

Thanks,
Eric



From feedle at feedle.net  Thu Sep 21 12:16:09 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 12:16:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] BUUG Thursdays?
In-Reply-To: <CFBA57E8B311D4118A0C009027E868EC9131D8@ussfhqmbx01.etranslate.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009211209120.15937-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>

Hey Eric!

On Thu, 21 Sep 2000, Friedman, Eric wrote:

> I just joined this list and am wondering if someone can tell
> me a bit about the Thursday evening BUUG gatherings in Berkeley.
> Are they well attended?  What sort of format (lecture, demo,
> free for all) is preferred?  What topics/speakers are lined up?

BUUG is primarily a social thing... we don't have any organized events for
the most part, we just occupy a bunch of tables in the back of the Cafe
AuCoquolet in Berkeley.  

Recent meetings have had eveything from trying to get a laptop up on
Sprint's Wireless Web, to Libertarian vs. Leftism arguments.

> Also: is it a dinner event or just drinks?

Members are encouraged to buy at least a drink to support the Cafe and
justify us occupying the table space.  The Cafe itself sells a variety of
items, from dinner plates to sandwiches, salads, and pastries.  Prices are
fairly reasonable.  The $5 Nachos are a personal favorite.

I suspect that tonight's attendance will be rather sparse, because there
are a lot of RSA Patent Expiry parties tonight.  I'll probably just be
stopping by on the way over to one myself.  I'll be bringing my new MP3 CD
player...

-Fedl




From ezekielk at weak.org  Sun Sep 24 10:50:53 2000
From: ezekielk at weak.org (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 10:50:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] I am signing off from BUUG
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009241044200.841-100000@weak.org>

Due to the roaring success of my stratedy to start a new, very aggressive
gay political movement, I regret to say that I no longer have the time and
wherewithal to continue participating in our fine BUUG gatherings.

Jon and Feedle now have the ball, as I know they will do an outstanding
job of continuing BUUG, if they so wish. I want to thank eveyone involved,
for the incredible experience of meeting so many excellent people. While
some of us disagree about certain ideas, we have all maintained mature and
graceful regards for eath other. This speaks mountains about the high
level of quality for all our members.

I will still be in Berkeley, and S.F., though totally engrossed in my gay
and street activism. Anyone is free to contact me, as I am not interested
at all, in cutting off the fine friendships and acquaintances I have
gained.

Consider  BUUG one of my giving-back gifts to the citizens of Berkeley,
for the love and kindness they showed me when I was down-and-out and
homeless when I first arrived on the West Coast in 1973. Jon and Feedle,
BUUG is now all yours to do with what you will. I wish you great success
with the group, and with all your endeavors. You are good examples of why
Berekely remains a great place to be.


---
LAVENDER VELVET REVOLUTION
Disgusted with our "choices" for next U.S. president?
Write me in: Ezekiel J. Krahlin, gay activist,
homeless and civil rights advocate. To make
an informed decision about me, peruse my website:
http://surf.to/gaybible




From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Sep 26 10:31:39 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261027530.30011-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>

I won't bore everybody with the details, but remember a few months back I
flamed Tony Stinko... err... Stanco about putting everybody's subscriber
information in the To: headers?  Well, it's come back to haunt us.  

I'm now really peeved at this whole situation.  Mr. Stanco is an ignorant
fool who seems to lack some fundamental understanding of the technology he
is trying to "report" on.

Question for Rick: Have you, or anybody else, noticed that Mr. Stanco is
such a vehemant proponent of Open Source (to the extent that he wants
_ALL_ software to be inherently open through legislative changes to
copyright law)... and uses AOL, perhaps the epitome of closed source?  Has
anybody called him on this?

Maybe we should.




From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Sep 26 10:37:39 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:37:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] Mr Tiemann's unauthorized use
In-Reply-To: <5a.b10db61.26fec0e6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261032090.30011-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>


On Sat, 23 Sep 2000 TonStanco at aol.com wrote:

> I agree. And I said that. It was my mistake in the first place and I 
> apologized for my silly part in this unseemly event.  

One thing I'm still trying to figure out, Tony.  In some of your previous
correspondance, you have put forward the opinion that all software needs
to be open, and if I read things right, suggested legislative changes to
copyright law to "encourage" that end.

So, here's the question.  Don't you think it's a bit disingenuous that you
take that position, and yet use as your primary means of Internet access
an ISP that is the ultimate in a closed-source model (proprietary
software, running only on proprietary operating systems, using a
proprietary network communications protocol) ?  In this day and age, where
there are a large quantity of ISPs that not only support Open Source
operating systems, but use them in their backend, why do you continue to
support a company who's entire business model probably would be in
jeapoardy in your world?

Just curious.  This has been a head-scratcher for me ever since reading
some of your first E-mails on this subject some months ago.  Either I
misread your stance, or there's something I'm missing.

-C. Sullivan





From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep 26 10:58:21 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:58:21 -0700
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261027530.30011-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>; from feedle@feedle.net on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 10:31:39AM -0700
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261027530.30011-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <20000926105821.C3404@linuxmafia.com>

begin  Feedlebom quotation:

> Question for Rick: Have you, or anybody else, noticed that Mr. Stanco
> is such a vehemant proponent of Open Source (to the extent that he
> wants _ALL_ software to be inherently open through legislative changes
> to copyright law)... and uses AOL, perhaps the epitome of closed
> source?  Has anybody called him on this?

I notice that you now have.

It's a bit difficult to bring up people's reliance on AOL without
appearing to be making fun of the handicapped.  When Stanco first 
showed up and started behaving in a notably clueless way, it _was_
tempting to mention that, but it seemed wiser to stick to the issues.

Of course, in the end I decided not to engage him on the issues, either,
because he seemed in need of more fundamental education than I felt I
could manage while remaining polite.

-- 
Cheers,                   "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm 
Rick Moen                 for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
rick at linuxmafia.com       for the rest of his life."   -- John A. Hrastar



From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Sep 26 11:42:24 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:42:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
In-Reply-To: <20000926105821.C3404@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261128150.30011-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>


On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Rick Moen wrote:

> It's a bit difficult to bring up people's reliance on AOL without
> appearing to be making fun of the handicapped. 

Suddenly, the vision of AOL as a small.. "special education" schoolbus in
the oft-quoted "superhighway" metaphor tickles me greatly for some reason.

> When Stanco first 
> showed up and started behaving in a notably clueless way, it _was_
> tempting to mention that, but it seemed wiser to stick to the issues.

I kinda was left with the impression that it was the issue.

People that don't put their money where their mouth is really piss me
off.  I can at least give Stallman huge credit in this regard.  To not
practice what you preach undermines your position as the "preacher."

As a demonstration, I once had the opportunity to talk at great lengths
with Ed Begley, Jr.  He's a whacked leftist if you ever met one (apologies
to the leftists on the list).  We had a lengthy discussion on the damage
that automobiles do to the environment (I tend to believe that the
physical damage caused by highway construction and paving far outweighs
the pollution "damage" cars cause, but that's another story).  The
argument got real intense: we are both highly educated in our positions on
the subject.

But I gained a new level of respect for the man, and his opinions, when he
took me outside and showed me his "car."  100% electric.  And this is back
before General Motors made their EV-1s.  Regardless of my opinion of the
man's politics, I gained a large quantity of respect for him because he
actually PRACTICED what he preached.  When we departed, I told him with a
firm handshake that I felt that even though I did not see eye to eye with
him on the issue of mandating electrified automobiles, I had a new level
of respect for him (and his viewpoints) because he was part of the
solution and not the problem.  His reply was that I could pay him no
better compliment.

Everything I ever needed to learn about activism I learned that
afternoon.  Action talks, and bullshit walks.

> Of course, in the end I decided not to engage him on the issues, either,
> because he seemed in need of more fundamental education than I felt I
> could manage while remaining polite.

Sadly enough, the kind of "education" he needs would so fundamentally
change who he is as a person that it may not be a wise thing to do.

"First we kill all the lawyers..." 

-Fedl




From zk_lists at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 26 13:31:12 2000
From: zk_lists at yahoo.com (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
Message-ID: <20000926203112.21027.qmail@web5503.mail.yahoo.com>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Feedlebom wrote:

> He's a whacked leftist if you ever met one (apologies to the 
> leftists on the list).  

man boobs

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep 26 15:20:07 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:20:07 -0700
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261128150.30011-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>; from feedle@feedle.net on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 11:42:24AM -0700
References: <20000926105821.C3404@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261128150.30011-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <20000926152006.G3404@linuxmafia.com>

begin Feedlebom quotation:

> I kinda was left with the impression that it was the issue.

But you have to pick your battles.

Anyone who makes the topic of discussion with that fellow his failure to
use open-source software will probably end up hearing whines about
difficulty and inconvenience, demands that people help him on his terms,
etc.  Which struck me as a truly painful experience, and I have better
ways to use my time.

By the way, like most of us, I can't claim particular purity:  I still
use Netscape Communicator 4.x for Web browsing.  It's not in any way
open source.  You use Pine.  It's not open source, either (not since 
v 3.91 -- modified binaries may not be distributed).  

Check the licence, if you weren't aware of that:
http://www.washington.edu/pine/overview/legal.html  It's fairly benign,
but not open source. 

There's a 100% compatible GPLed clone of pico called "nano".  Nobody's
yet created a GPLed clone of pine (or updated 3.91), but you can operate
the Mutt MUA with a "Pinerc" configuration that makes it very similar.

As soon as Mozilla M18 comes out, I'm hoping to drop the last piece of
non-free software from _my_ personal computing environment.

-- 
Cheers,                   "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm 
Rick Moen                 for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
rick at linuxmafia.com       for the rest of his life."   -- John A. Hrastar



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep 26 16:13:22 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:13:22 -0700
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
In-Reply-To: <20000926152006.G3404@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 03:20:07PM -0700
References: <20000926105821.C3404@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261128150.30011-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com> <20000926152006.G3404@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20000926161322.A27355@linuxmafia.com>

Following up on my own post:

> You use Pine.  It's not open source, either (not since 
> v 3.91 -- modified binaries may not be distributed).  
> Check the licence, if you weren't aware of that:
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/overview/legal.html  It's fairly benign,
> but not open source. 

Not quite right.

The licence to pine did become more restrictive starting with 3.92 --
but, more important, the public position of copyright holder University
of Washington on interpretation of its _old_ license has also changed,
dramatically.  The old licence stated:  " Permission to use, copy,
modify, and distribute this software and its documentation for any
purpose and without fee to the University of Washington is hereby
granted...."

In recent years, U. of W. has alleged that the words "permission to
copy, distribute and modify" do not grant permission to distribute a
modified version.  In other words, they say you can distribute the
software, and you can modify the software, but you can't modify it and
then distribute the result.  U. of W. _threatened to sue_ FSF for
distributing modified binaries.

The MANA Project (http://www.kvaleberg.com/mana.html) now distributes a
modern, GPLed derivative of Pine 3.91.  However, "Mana" remains under
the shadow of U. of W.'s licence interpretation.

Emulating pine using the GPLed "mutt" MUA:  Put the following 
script in /usr/local/bin as "pine", and chmod it to 755 (executable):

   #!/bin/sh
   /usr/bin/mutt -F /usr/doc/mutt/examples/Pine.rc

-- 
Cheers,                   "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm 
Rick Moen                 for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
rick at linuxmafia.com       for the rest of his life."   -- John A. Hrastar



From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Sep 26 16:13:51 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:13:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
In-Reply-To: <20000926152006.G3404@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261536050.25531-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>


On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Rick Moen wrote:

> > I kinda was left with the impression that it was the issue.
> 
> But you have to pick your battles.

Agreed..

> Anyone who makes the topic of discussion with that fellow his failure to
> use open-source software will probably end up hearing whines about
> difficulty and inconvenience, demands that people help him on his terms,
> etc.  Which struck me as a truly painful experience, and I have better
> ways to use my time.

The only problem with Tony is the fact that he's a lot more than a
whiner.  Don't forget: he was (allegedly) working on a story for
publication.  Press having the wrong idea about what this is about is far
worse than your average whiner being misinformed.

> By the way, like most of us, I can't claim particular purity:  I still
> use Netscape Communicator 4.x for Web browsing.  It's not in any way
> open source.  You use Pine.  It's not open source, either (not since 
> v 3.91 -- modified binaries may not be distributed).  

I never claim purity.  I also use Microsoft Windows.  You will recall that
in my statements to him that I never thought that open-only software was
any better than the current world we live in.  I use open source software
when I benefit from it.  When closed-source software does the job, it gets
used (and paid for).

Similarly, I'm not an open-source advocate, nor do I position myself that
way.  To be frank, Linux has fattened my wallet because it's created job
opportunities that I probably would not have in the Windows
world.  Because of that, Linux is good.  

Napster bad.  :)

I don't view the open source movement as the white knight saving me from
the evil daemons (heh) of Redmond.  I do view them as competant peers who
have developed superior technology.

> Check the licence, if you weren't aware of that:
> http://www.washington.edu/pine/overview/legal.html  It's fairly benign,
> but not open source. 

I am aware of Pine's "free beer but not free speech" licensing.  In many
ways, I have no problem with their licensing terms, and I understand their
approach.  Their primary (stated) concerns are: 1. commercial
redistribution [I can understand that since development of Pine/Pico/Pilot
occurred at Washington State taxpayer expense, there is a desire to
restrict commercial profiteering] 2. code forking, and 3. disclaimer of
warrantee.

While it is not completely compatible with the letter (or in some cases
spirit) of the GPL, it is nowhere near the evils of truly
"closed" softare.

> There's a 100% compatible GPLed clone of pico called "nano".  Nobody's
> yet created a GPLed clone of pine (or updated 3.91), but you can operate
> the Mutt MUA with a "Pinerc" configuration that makes it very similar.

I actually have nano installed on most of my boxes.  I've never really
liked pico for anything but message editing, anyway.

vim has lots of neat-o code features, and is open source.
 
> As soon as Mozilla M18 comes out, I'm hoping to drop the last piece of
> non-free software from _my_ personal computing environment.

Heh.

-Fedl




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep 26 16:28:42 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:28:42 -0700
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261536050.25531-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>; from feedle@feedle.net on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 04:13:51PM -0700
References: <20000926152006.G3404@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261536050.25531-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <20000926162841.C27355@linuxmafia.com>

begin Feedlebom quotation:

> The only problem with Tony is the fact that he's a lot more than a
> whiner.  Don't forget: he was (allegedly) working on a story for
> publication.  Press having the wrong idea about what this is about is
> far worse than your average whiner being misinformed.

Better you than me, then.  If you grant that it's a worthwhile task to
educate writers, you still can pick which ones to work on.  

> I never claim purity.  I also use Microsoft Windows.

Hmpf.  Never liked it.  Ditched it for good back in the early '90s.

> When closed-source software does the job, it gets used (and paid for).

I find it technically deficient on its merits, as a general rule.  And
life's too short to spend time learning it.

> To be frank, Linux has fattened my wallet because it's created job
> opportunities that I probably would not have in the Windows world.
> Because of that, Linux is good.  

Nothing wrong with that.  One of the most important freedoms FSF has
fought for is the freedom to use software commercially.  

> I don't view the open source movement as the white knight saving me
> from the evil daemons (heh) of Redmond.

<yawn>  That's so 1993.

> I am aware of Pine's "free beer but not free speech" licensing.  In
> many ways, I have no problem with their licensing terms, and I
> understand their approach.

Users on my system, when they type "pine", get mutt with the Pinerc
configuration file.  They don't miss pine.  When they type "pico", they
get nano -- and you can't even see any differences.

> While it is not completely compatible with the letter (or in some
> cases spirit) of the GPL....

The right to distribute modified versions is an essential element of
what makes software free.  (It's likewise a key point of the Open Source
Definition, http://www.opensource.org/osd.html .)

-- 
Cheers,                   "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm 
Rick Moen                 for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
rick at linuxmafia.com       for the rest of his life."   -- John A. Hrastar



From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Sep 26 16:41:04 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:41:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] Mr Tiemann's unauthorized use
In-Reply-To: <5f.af33e16.270280cd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261614170.25531-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>


On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 TonStanco at aol.com wrote:

> Isn't this some sort of ISP prejudice? It is easy to look at the ISP and use 
> that as a short cut to infer what is in someone's heart. But it is 
> inaccurate. You have to see how each one thinks and speaks, individually. 
> That may be harder, but it is more accurate. Otherwise is it just another 
> group-based prejudice.

You have chosen, by your actions, to not support open source.  You have
voted against open source with your dollars.

Somebody far more intelligent than me once said, "How can you change the
world if you refuse to change yourself?"

> The reason I use this ISP is because it is the one I started with. At the 
> time it was the easiest to use, and I haven't gotten around to changing it. 
> Though I think that time is quickly coming. 

This infers that you value convenience over your "core 
values".  Interesting ethics decision.  It's not unlike a vegetarian
continuing to eat at McDonald's, instead of supporting the 100% vegetarian
restaurant around the corner because "I've always eaten at McDonald's."

That ethics decision seems to run contrary to what the majority of people
in the Open Source community believe in.

> I will be leaving my job soon to help free software, which is more indicative 
> than my ISP of my support of free software. Can you say as much? Or is having 
> the "right" ISP enough for you? 

I spent four years working for an ISP that was one of the first in
Southern California to have a declared "we support Linux and
BSD" policy.  This was largely at my direction as a founding
member of the technical support staff.  Additionally, I have selected my
employers over the years based on their embracing of open source
concepts and support of the open source community.  Being as I work in the
computer business, I can choose my employers based on their embracing and
support of Open Source.  Every company I have worked for in the last
eight years has supported open source both financially, and by "give
back" into the community.  My current employer gives meeting space to
small Linux groups, encourages employees to learn about Linux through
education, and permits employees to work on open source projects on
company time when they have some "dead time."  They also pay speaking fees
to Open Source leaders to speak at sessions for their employees.

Besides, I never made any insulting remarks to you about your choice of
ISP, other than it seemed disingenuous for someone who is an adamate
supporter of Open Source to be using an internet provider that is, by
definition, proprietary.  If you imply that I feel like you are in some
"cyberghetto" because you use AOL, you are putting words into my mouth
that I did not say.  I merely wish to understand why you choose to support
financially an Internet provider that is not, by any definition, "open
source" friendly. 

Also, for the record, I have never stated that I think that closed source
needs to "go away."  If you will recall from our conversations, I take a
more middle-of-the-road attitude: that it is ultimately the customer who
decides what licensing method they prefer.  Which is why I cannot
understand your contined reliance on a proprietary ISP.

You, on the other hand, presented some strong convictions about closed
source.  I view those convictions as being in conflict with using a
proprietary ISP on a proprietary operating system.  I am merely
questioning your dedication to the beliefs you allegedly espouse, and your
motives behind those beliefs.

Using the "right" ISP will certainly go a long way to establishing your
dedication to the values that the Open Source community
embraces.  

Or have you forgotten that Open Source isn't a company, it isn't a
product... it's a community of people bound by a common goal: to create
quality "free" software.  Supporting Internet providers (like Transbay
Computers here in Berkeley.. they allow the FreeBSD group to hold their
meetings in the back) that support Open Source is an easy way to join that
community, and "give back" something without having to write a line of
code.

> Life is much more complicated than black and white. There are no shortcuts to 
> true understanding of a person. 

There are no shortcuts to true understanding of a community.  By not
participating in an important part of the Open Source community (i.e. by
choosing a closed-source ISP for your primary source of internet
access) you are the one taking shortcuts.  

-Chris




From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Sep 26 16:55:38 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:55:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
In-Reply-To: <20000926162841.C27355@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261649050.25531-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Rick Moen wrote:

> Better you than me, then.  If you grant that it's a worthwhile task to
> educate writers, you still can pick which ones to work on.  

Well, it worked on my wife, so I might as well branch out.  :)

> I find it technically deficient on its merits, as a general rule.  And
> life's too short to spend time learning it.

Depends.  Being as the world still revolves around Redmond, I find having
some Windows skills useful in the job market.  I do agree that, in large,
MS Windows is generally inferior software.

> > I don't view the open source movement as the white knight saving me
> > from the evil daemons (heh) of Redmond.
> 
> <yawn>  That's so 1993.

Heh.  Don't forget: I am an old Amiga hack.

> Users on my system, when they type "pine", get mutt with the Pinerc
> configuration file.  They don't miss pine.  When they type "pico", they
> get nano -- and you can't even see any differences.

I'll try your earlier suggestion, and if it provides a comparable user
experience, you'll probably convert me.

> > While it is not completely compatible with the letter (or in some
> > cases spirit) of the GPL....
> 
> The right to distribute modified versions is an essential element of
> what makes software free.  (It's likewise a key point of the Open Source
> Definition, http://www.opensource.org/osd.html .)

While I agree that it is definately not in agreement with the "Open Source
Definition", I would argue that it's somewhat of a moot point.  I believe
that the developer has rights, too: and one of the rights I believe he has
is the right to dictate that his original code remain untainted.  UoW has
never said that patches could not be distributed, just compiled binaries
of patched versions.   But that's their choice.

Ironically enough, the "market" is sorting it out by the mere existance of
the "pine mode" in mutt.  So, in essence, there now is a GPL'ed version of
pine.  End of problem.

-Fedl





From TonStanco at aol.com  Tue Sep 26 15:44:29 2000
From: TonStanco at aol.com (TonStanco at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:44:29 EDT
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] Mr Tiemann's unauthorized use
Message-ID: <5f.af33e16.270280cd@aol.com>

 
>  So, here's the question.  Don't you think it's a bit disingenuous that you
>  take that position, and yet use as your primary means of Internet access
>  an ISP that is the ultimate in a closed-source model (proprietary
>  software, running only on proprietary operating systems, using a
>  proprietary network communications protocol) ?  In this day and age, where
>  there are a large quantity of ISPs that not only support Open Source
>  operating systems, but use them in their backend, why do you continue to
>  support a company who's entire business model probably would be in
>  jeapoardy in your world?

Isn't this some sort of ISP prejudice? It is easy to look at the ISP and use 
that as a short cut to infer what is in someone's heart. But it is 
inaccurate. You have to see how each one thinks and speaks, individually. 
That may be harder, but it is more accurate. Otherwise is it just another 
group-based prejudice.

The reason I use this ISP is because it is the one I started with. At the 
time it was the easiest to use, and I haven't gotten around to changing it. 
Though I think that time is quickly coming. 

I will be leaving my job soon to help free software, which is more indicative 
than my ISP of my support of free software. Can you say as much? Or is having 
the "right" ISP enough for you? 

Life is much more complicated than black and white. There are no shortcuts to 
true understanding of a person. 







From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep 26 17:22:29 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:22:29 -0700
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261649050.25531-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>; from feedle@feedle.net on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 04:55:38PM -0700
References: <20000926162841.C27355@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261649050.25531-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <20000926172228.F27355@linuxmafia.com>

begin Feedlebom quotation:

> Depends.  Being as the world still revolves around Redmond....

Your world, perhaps.  Definitely not mine.

> While I agree that it is definately not in agreement with the "Open
> Source Definition", I would argue that it's somewhat of a moot point.
> I believe that the developer has rights, too: and one of the rights I
> believe he has is the right to dictate that his original code remain
> untainted. 

Red herring, entirely irrelevant to the question.  The (implied)
question was which code should _we_ elect to adopt.  I elect free /
open-source software wherever it is even halfway serviceable.

-- 
Cheers,                   "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm 
Rick Moen                 for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
rick at linuxmafia.com       for the rest of his life."   -- John A. Hrastar



From tonystanco at linuxmail.org  Tue Sep 26 17:21:30 2000
From: tonystanco at linuxmail.org (Tony Stanco)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:21:30 +0800
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] Mr Tiemann's unauthorized
Message-ID: <20000927002130.4252.qmail@linuxmail.org>

Is this better? Problem is I still need a dial-up to get to this and I can't archive easily.

>You have chosen, by your actions, to not support >open source.  You have
>voted against open source with your dollars.

Fair enough. Do you have a list of free software dial-ups in the DC area? 

>This infers that you value convenience over your >"core 
>values".  Interesting ethics decision.  

"Vanity of Vanities. All is vanity. And the most vain is that with pain purchased." Shakespeare (as close as I remember it). Efficiency is important, because I don't have all the time to do what I need to do in a day.

>I spent four years working for an ISP that was one >of the first in
>Southern California to have a declared "we support >Linux and
>BSD" policy.  This was largely at my direction as a >founding
>member of the technical support staff.  >Additionally, I have selected my
>employers over the years based on their embracing of >open source
>concepts and support of the open source community.  >Being as I work in the
>computer business, I can choose my employers based >on their embracing and
>support of Open Source.  Every company I have worked >for in the last
>eight years has supported open source both >financially, and by "give
>back" into the community.  My current employer gives >meeting space to
>small Linux groups, encourages employees to learn >about Linux through
>education, and permits employees to work on open >source projects on
>company time when they have some "dead time."  They >also pay speaking fees
>to Open Source leaders to speak at sessions for >their employees.

Yes, that is pretty cool. ;-) Though I follow RMS and free software, not open source.

>I merely wish to understand why you choose to support
>financially an Internet provider that is not, by any >definition, "open
>source" friendly. 

Yes, I understand. It's a good point.

>Also, for the record, I have never stated that I >think that closed source
>needs to "go away." 

I do. All proprietary needs to be replaced. 

>Using the "right" ISP will certainly go a long way >to establishing your
>dedication to the values that the Open Source >community embraces.  

Yes. I understand. I will do it. Which one is free software in my area.

Thanks for pointing out the inconsistency. Sometimes, we just need a small push to do what we know is right.




-- 
Get your free email from www.linuxmail.org 


Powered by Outblaze




From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Sep 26 17:30:53 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:30:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] Mr Tiemann's unauthorized
In-Reply-To: <20000927002130.4252.qmail@linuxmail.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261726400.25531-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>


On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Tony Stanco wrote:

> Fair enough. Do you have a list of free software dial-ups in the DC area? 

I'm on the left coast, so I don't have such a list.

I do know that Erols provides some level of Linux support.  Also, you
might try looking in the telephone book under "Internet Providers" and
asking around.  

We actually put "Linux friendly!" in our yellow pages ad.  I would suspect
that somebody in your market would have done likewise.  Again, there's no
substitute for asking around.

> -- 
> Get your free email from www.linuxmail.org 

Heh.  *grin*





From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue Sep 26 17:55:16 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 17:55:16 -0700
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] Mr Tiemann's unauthorized
In-Reply-To: <20000927002130.4252.qmail@linuxmail.org>; from tonystanco@linuxmail.org on Wed, Sep 27, 2000 at 08:21:30AM +0800
References: <20000927002130.4252.qmail@linuxmail.org>
Message-ID: <20000926175516.H27355@linuxmafia.com>

[Snip Stanco from distribution]

begin  Tony Stanco quotation:

> Fair enough. Do you have a list of free software dial-ups in the DC
> area? 

The term "support" is always such a politically-loaded term.  If you
make the mistake of calling up an ISP (either the sales staff or the
support department; it doesn't matter) and asking them if they "support
Linux", their answer is almost always an emphatic "no".

But that doesn't necesssarily mean what you might think it means.  When
they hear that question, what they're really hearing you ask is "If I 
get a PPP dial-up account with you, are you willing to help me debug all
my problems using your connectivity and services, even though I'm using
sundry Linux-based software you may know nothing about?"

That may not be anything like the question you were trying to ask.  You 
may have meant:  "I understand that I'm signing up for generic,
industry-standard PPP transport of my IP packets using [PAP|CHAP|MS-CHAP] 
authentication.  Do you know of any reason why I couldn't make this work
with arbitrary PPP client software (supporting the necessary
authentication protocol) on the OS platform of my choice?"

Because the term "support" is ambiguous, and because the industry is
oriented towards clueless technophobe customers, and because ISPs
operate on razor-thin margines and could be killed by excessive
'phone-support costs, the ISPs construe the question as pessimistically 
as possible.  You probably won't reach someone who even _understands_
the second question formulation, let alone be willing to give you an
honest answer.

The upshot of all this is that the set of ISPs with whom you can use
Linux boxen, entirely trouble-free, is -=immeasurably=- greater than the
minuscule number that say they "support Linux".  (A number have
mandatory sign-up software that's available only in Win32 or MacOS
versions, but are in the business of doing standard IP transport,
thereafter.)

> "Vanity of Vanities. All is vanity. And the most vain is that with
> pain purchased." Shakespeare (as close as I remember it). Efficiency
> is important, because I don't have all the time to do what I need to
> do in a day.

Translation:   I'm too lazy and clueless to use anything else.

But we knew that.

> Thanks for pointing out the inconsistency. Sometimes, we just need a
> small push to do what we know is right.

10 to 1 odds that he _won't_ do it.

-- 
Cheers,                   "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm 
Rick Moen                 for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
rick at linuxmafia.com       for the rest of his life."   -- John A. Hrastar



From feedle at feedle.net  Tue Sep 26 18:10:52 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:10:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Re: [Buug-admin] Mr Tiemann's unauthorized
In-Reply-To: <20000926175516.H27355@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261809060.22641-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>


On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Rick Moen wrote:

> [Snip Stanco from distribution]

Can I snip him from this reality sphere?

> The term "support" is always such a politically-loaded term.  If you
> make the mistake of calling up an ISP (either the sales staff or the
> support department; it doesn't matter) and asking them if they "support
> Linux", their answer is almost always an emphatic "no".

Good point.  However, in just about every major market there is at least
one ISP that does, indeed "support" Linux in the true sense of that word.

> Translation:   I'm too lazy and clueless to use anything else.
> 
> But we knew that.

Somebody get Stallman on the phone and warn him.

> 10 to 1 odds that he _won't_ do it.

Well, he did get an account at linuxmail.com... so there's hope.

-Fedl





From ezekielk at weak.org  Tue Sep 26 23:45:09 2000
From: ezekielk at weak.org (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:45:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] The Italian Army's got Lorenzo by the Balls
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009262343420.668-100000@weak.org>

Thought I'd forward this message from our good friend Lorenzo:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 12:23:29 +0200
From: lorenzo <lorenzo at weak.org>
To: Zeke Krahlin <ezekielk at weak.org>
Subject: bad news

hi.. the Army called me back.. by the time I'll send you this mail I'll be
in Italy, doing Civil Services for the next ten months.
I hope things are going well with you.. and anyway, I'll be back next year.

Sorry about telling you this so late, but I had four days to pack, sell &
give away everything and I was very busy.

Have fun.

-- 

Lorenzo
lorenzo at weak.org
k at bbs.olografix.org




From feedle at feedle.net  Wed Sep 27 09:10:17 2000
From: feedle at feedle.net (Feedlebom)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:10:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] The Italian Army's got Lorenzo by the Balls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009262343420.668-100000@weak.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009270909120.26644-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>

Conscription is a bitch.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, Zeke Krahlin wrote:

> hi.. the Army called me back.. by the time I'll send you this mail I'll be
> in Italy, doing Civil Services for the next ten months.
> I hope things are going well with you.. and anyway, I'll be back next year.




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Sep 27 18:24:33 2000
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 18:24:33 -0700
Subject: [buug] TonStanco is at it again...
In-Reply-To: <20000926161322.A27355@linuxmafia.com>; from rick@linuxmafia.com on Tue, Sep 26, 2000 at 04:13:22PM -0700
References: <20000926105821.C3404@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009261128150.30011-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com> <20000926152006.G3404@linuxmafia.com> <20000926161322.A27355@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20000927182433.E19284@linuxmafia.com>

Since the matter of pine/pico licencing keeps coming up (in various 
places), I've FAQed it, at http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#pine .
(HTML is quasi-rendered to ASCII, below.)


Q:  What's wrong with using Pine?

A:  Many people are fond of the University of Washington "Pine" mail
reader, because it's solidly constructed, easy to understand, and
familiar to many long-time Unix users.  It is, however, somewhat slow,
not very extensible, and not very actively maintained.  The latter may
be related to my primary objection:  It is no longer free (aka
open-source) software, as the copyright owner has taken it proprietary.
(Many coders would rather contribute to open-source alternatives.)

Through version 3.91, Pine's licence stated the following:  "Permission
to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its documentation
for any purpose and without fee to the University of Washington is
hereby granted...."  Starting with v. 3.92, Pine changed to a
more-restrictive licence.  Since that change, U. of W. has alleged,
retroactively, that even the _old_ licence never allowed distribution of
modified versions.  In other words, they say you may distribute the
software, and may modify it, but may not modify it and then distribute
the result.  U. of W.  threatened to sue the Free Software Foundation
(href="http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal-0008/msg00147.html) for
distributing modified binaries.  This is not a trivial matter, but
rather a key right.  

Egil Kvaleberg's MANA (http://www.kvaleberg.com/mana.html) is a modern,
genuinely free (open-source) update of Pine 3.91.  However, MANA remains
under the shadow of U. of W.'s licence interpretation.

Because of this licence problem and legal stance, Pine is omitted from
machines I maintain -- likewise MANA, because of its related legal
issues (as long as it still includes U. of W. code).  If you support
free (open-source) software, you should do likewise.  However, there are
ways to accomodate long-time Pine users:

The Mutt mail reader (http://www.mutt.org/), by "Elm" author Michael R.
Elkins, is a next-generation effort based on lessons learned from many
mail programs, including Pine.  As a convenience for Pine users, it
includes a Pine-emulation mode (a Pine.rc file) to adopt the most-used
Pine command keys (keybindings).  To use it, put the following script in
/usr/local/bin as "pine", and chmod it to 755 (executable):

#!/bin/sh
/usr/bin/mutt -F /usr/doc/mutt/examples/Pine.rc

This is (necessarily) an incomplete emulation:  It does not make Mutt
display Pine's menus, just honour its command keys.

The Pine package also furnishes the popular simple text editor Pico --
which therefore suffers the same prohibitive licence problem.
Fortuately, Chris Allegretta has created a free-software clone, nano,
(http://www.asty.org/nano/), whose emulation of pico is said to be
perfect.  After installing nano, create symbolic link
/usr/local/bin/pico, pointing to it.




From ezekielk at weak.org  Wed Sep 27 22:11:21 2000
From: ezekielk at weak.org (Zeke Krahlin)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:11:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] The Italian Army's got Lorenzo by the Balls
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0009270909120.26644-100000@galaga.dreamhost.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.10009272208120.10744-100000@weak.org>

On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Feedlebom wrote:

> Conscription is a bitch.

Sure is! I sent a message to Loranezo yeaterday and he's already
responded. He is most appreciative to maintain contact with me. I am sure
he will be delighted to hear from other BUUG folks.

---
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