" I think this sums it up. Oppinions are just that. Jeremy From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 16:46:13 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <20020816232449.GH9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161642320.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Thus spake Jeremy Brand: > > legal identity. In fact online (aka digital) trust can be established > > without knowledge of ones legal identity. I am not the only one who > > thinks so either. > > > > * from: http://freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/Philosophy > > paragraph 7. Thus spake Rick Moen: > That's great, but I can't help noticing this has nothing to do with the > subject at hand. You seem to be furiously contending with allegations > not present. Actually, Rick - Ian mentioned something like that in his original post: Quoted from Ian Zimmerman: "If you want to do this, please remember to bring your key hash, the associated email address, and a picture ID." ---------- I guess it was a terrible assumption that a picture ID could be something like a drivers license (a legal identity). But, I guess that was a better assumption than it being a CostCo Membership card, or someone's gym photo ID. Jeremy From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 16:55:25 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:55:25 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161642320.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020816232449.GH9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161642320.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020816235525.GJ9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > Actually, Rick - Ian mentioned something like that in his original post: > > Quoted from Ian Zimmerman: > "If you want to do this, please remember to bring your key hash, the > associated email address, and a picture ID." > ---------- > > I guess it was a terrible assumption that a picture ID could be something > like a drivers license (a legal identity). But, I guess that was a better > assumption than it being a CostCo Membership card, or someone's gym photo > ID. It seems that you have some ideological problem with something Ian (Zimmerman, not Clarke) said, but cannot be bothered to state it specifically. That's OK by me, but I think I'm done with this fork of the conversation, as the effort appears futile. Good luck with whatever your shibboleth is. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 16:58:54 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:58:54 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161633390.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020816232449.GH9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161633390.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020816235854.GK9654@linuxmafia.com> Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net) herewith displays a glorious and splendid incapacity to recognise sarcasm when he sees it: > lynx -source "http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/" | grep "<title>" > > I think this sums it up. Oppinions are just that. And universal gravitation is a theory. Thank you for playing. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From evans at ncseweb.org Fri Aug 16 19:05:21 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:05:21 -0700 Subject: [buug] backup devices Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816190431.012ff898@mail.mindspring.com> Hey All, What would some of you recommend for a backup device and software on a BSD box? Burnable CDs? We will be running a lot of list serves and need to archive all the email for legal reasons. Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 20:04:10 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <20020816235525.GJ9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161929060.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Thus spake Rick Moen: > It seems that you have some ideological problem with something Ian > (Zimmerman, not Clarke) said, but cannot be bothered to state it > specifically. That's OK by me, but I think I'm done with this fork of > the conversation, as the effort appears futile. > > Good luck with whatever your shibboleth is. Dear Rick, Your assumption about my _apparent_ ideological problem was simply a misunderstanding by you. I have no ideological problem with what Ian has said. Also, I am deeply sorry you do not understand my shibboleth. In case it was not clear enough from my reply to Ian, Thus spake Jeremy Brand: > "Does this mean that people not able to physically exchange keys at the > meeting will be left out of these discussions because posts to this list > will only be encrypted to those who's keys were physically available at > some point ?" I am wondering if discussion on this list is going to end for those of us who can not physically share a key with the members that meet regularly in Berkeley. On a side note, in response to Ian suggesting that we also not only share our public keys, but also bring a picture ID, I said this: Thus spake Jeremy Brand: > "how does verifying ones physical ID, like a drivers license have > anything to do with a trusted public key? If a drivers license were all > it took, would you feel safe sending something private to the average > drivers license holder?" So, Rick, as it was not clear to you, I will summarize my 3 questions into 1. If you know the answer, please feel free to donate it. Is the list going to be closed to those who can physically NOT provide public keys at the meeting with picture ID? I am particularly interested in an answer - because if that is the case, then I need to find some physical means of transporting my public key and picture ID for a meeting. Had I know this, I could have done it last night - but I do not think I will be able to attend a meeting for quite a while, and it would be a shame to miss out on such wonderful discussion :) Though I disagree if the point that is being made, that presenting a picture ID assumes trust, that is not a point that matters. I also disagree for practicle reasons that a public list be encrypted to all of it's recipients. There are probalby many people that enjoy reading this list that dealing with cryptogrophy would be just too much effort - and thus be shut out. Then there would be the group of people who can not physically present a public key and picture ID - they would be shut out also. There is a lot of shared knowledge that would not be shared to the extent that it is now if this list were encrypted. However, I would certainly present _a_ picture ID (and _a_ public key) if I had the opportunity. Thanks, Jeremy PS, thank you Rick for clearing up any situation in which my questions were not clear enough. Your helpfulness in this matter will not be forgotten. :) From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 21:15:31 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:15:31 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161929060.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020816235525.GJ9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161929060.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020817041531.GP9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > Your assumption about my _apparent_ ideological problem was simply a > misunderstanding by you. I honestly don't care, as there seems to be substance to discuss, let alone one relevant to the topic. > I am wondering if discussion on this list is going to end for those of us > who can not physically share a key with the members that meet regularly in > Berkeley. That continues to be a bizarre question. Nobody suggested that. Ian is simply going to conduct a keysigning party. I think you need to relax, a bit. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 21:38:27 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <20020817041531.GP9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162123140.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Thus spake Rick Moen: > Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:15:31 -0700 > From: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] keysigning? > > Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > > Your assumption about my _apparent_ ideological problem was simply a > > misunderstanding by you. > > Thus spake Rick Moen: > I honestly don't care, as there seems to be substance to discuss, let > alone one relevant to the topic. If you do not care, then maybe you should have considered not bringing it up. > Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > > I am wondering if discussion on this list is going to end for those of us > > who can not physically share a key with the members that meet regularly in > > Berkeley. > > Thus spake Rick Moen: > That continues to be a bizarre question. Nobody suggested that. Ian > is simply going to conduct a keysigning party. Suggesting Ian is conducting a keysigning party does not answer any question. BTW, that is not the question anyway. The simplified question I asked was: > "Is the list going to be closed to those who can physically NOT provide > public keys at the meeting with picture ID?" (Rick,) If you do not have an answer to this question - then there really is no need to respond, is there? (And, for the record, this is a rhetorical question). Your continuation of not answering a question (or questions) is only going to (IMO) detract from someone with a useful answer from answering - and it would be nice to know (that's why I asked). Your helpfulness may have been overstated. Thanks, Jeremy From feedle at feedle.net Fri Aug 16 21:43:15 2002 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle at feedle.net) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161550190.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <86elcyfmmu.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161550190.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <4934.10.3.36.17.1029559395.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> > Does this mean that people not able to physically exchange keys at the > meeting will be left out of these discussions because posts to this list > will only be encrypted to those who's keys were physically available at > some point ? Did I miss something? Why does E-Mail need to be encrypted to this list at all? That seems contrary to the stated goals of the Berkeley UNIX Users Group. Or is this just another one of those leaky conversations that wound up here by mistake (thinking that this was a list for Free/Open/NetBSD development or somesuch)? -Fedl From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 21:45:05 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:45:05 -0700 Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162123140.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020817041531.GP9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162123140.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020817044505.GS9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > If you do not care, then maybe you should have considered not bringing it > up. If memory serves (and it does), you were the one who asked. > Suggesting Ian is conducting a keysigning party does not answer any > question. Well, that's all that Ian spoke of. And the listadmin is Jon McClintock, not Ian. > (Rick,) If you do not have an answer to this question - then there really > is no need to respond, is there? Think of this as a free bonus. Be the first on your block! > (And, for the record, this is a rhetorical question). I collect those. Thanks! ;-> -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 21:48:58 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <4934.10.3.36.17.1029559395.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162148040.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Thus spake feedle at feedle.net: > Did I miss something? Why does E-Mail need to be encrypted to this list > at all? That seems contrary to the stated goals of the Berkeley UNIX > Users Group. > > Or is this just another one of those leaky conversations that wound up > here by mistake (thinking that this was a list for Free/Open/NetBSD > development or somesuch)? Hello Feele, Ian stated in his email this: > "Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication on this > list;" I am wondering the same thing. Jeremy From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 22:11:38 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <20020817044505.GS9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> > Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > > If you do not care, then maybe you should have considered not bringing it > > up. > > Thus spake Rick Moen: > If memory serves (and it does), you were the one who asked. Actually, no. You brought up the fact that you did not understand my shibboleth - unless it is something else that you do not care about. > Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > > Suggesting Ian is conducting a keysigning party does not answer any > > question. > > Thus spake Rick Moen: > Well, that's all that Ian spoke of. And the listadmin is Jon McClintock, > not Ian. Actually, no. Please re-read the first message in this thread. Ian _did_ speak of people voicing support of encryping communications on this list. Quoting Ian: > Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication on this > list; and I feel that our group is an excellent example of one which has > developed some degree of IRL mutual trust, that could be reused in our > online lives. My question still stands unanswered: Is the list going to be closed to those who can physically NOT provide public keys at the meeting with picture ID? Which (one could imagine) evolves naturally to this question: Is this list going to be encrypted? (regardless of physical exchange of keys and IDs). Jeremy From atporter at primate.net Fri Aug 16 22:14:37 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:14:37 -0700 Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020817044505.GS9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020817051437.GQ22603@primate.net> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:11:38PM -0700, Jeremy Brand, B.S. wrote: > > Actually, no. Please re-read the first message in this thread. Ian > _did_ speak of people voicing support of encryping communications on > this list. You're missing context. In the past, we have used the list to discuss encrypting communications -- not list traffic. From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 22:17:58 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:17:58 -0700 Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020817044505.GS9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020817051758.GV9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > Actually, no. You brought up the fact that you did not understand my > shibboleth - unless it is something else that you do not care about. Irony, here: It was a passing comment. _You_ seem to want to talk about it. > Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication on this > list; and I feel that our group is an excellent example of one which has > developed some degree of IRL mutual trust, that could be reused in our > online lives. I assumed he meant authenticated, not encrypted. Sending encrypted traffic to a mailing list is obviously unworkable. And Ian is _still_ not the listadmin. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 22:23:11 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <20020817051437.GQ22603@primate.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162216360.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Thus spake Aaron T Porter: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:11:38PM -0700, Jeremy Brand, B.S. wrote: > > > > Actually, no. Please re-read the first message in this thread. Ian > > _did_ speak of people voicing support of encryping communications on > > this list. > > You're missing context. In the past, we have used the list to > discuss encrypting communications -- not list traffic. Aaron, Thank you. This answers my question. Regards, Jeremy From jzitt at metatronpress.com Fri Aug 16 22:33:27 2002 From: jzitt at metatronpress.com (Joseph Zitt) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:33:27 -0700 Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020817044505.GS9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020816223327.6981331a.jzitt@metatronpress.com> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:11:38 -0700 (PDT) "Jeremy Brand, B.S." <jeremy at nirvani.net> wrote: > Actually, no. Please re-read the first message in this thread. Ian > _did_ speak of people voicing support of encryping communications on > this list. > Quoting Ian: > > Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication on > > this list; and I feel that our group is an excellent example of one > > which has developed some degree of IRL mutual trust, that could be > > reused in our online lives. > > My question still stands unanswered: > > Is the list going to be closed to those who can physically NOT provide > public keys at the meeting with picture ID? > > Which (one could imagine) evolves naturally to this question: > Is this list going to be encrypted? (regardless of physical exchange > of keys and IDs). It may just me that I've been neck-deep in issues of textual interpretation, but it seems to me that the difference in understanding hinges on what "on" means in Ian's first sentence. I *think* he meant that people have, in messages written to this list, expressed interest in ecrypting some of their communications. I don't however, recall seeing anyone wishing that list *itself* be encrypted. Since: - the issue of "trust" (again an ambiguous word) in encryption and authentication hinges on the degree to which you are sure that a given signature corresponds to a given real-world-human, - one of the ways to extend that "trust" is for someone who you trust to confirm that a signature corresponds to someone *he* trusts, - many of the people on this list apparently know each other, - many of these people meet frequently in a convenient real-world meeting, - the documents suggest present a Pretty Good indication that the real-world person bearing the documents is the person identified, - that's good enough for most purposes (remembering that the original PGP stands for Pretty Good Privacy) it seems a reasonable suggestion that a keysigning party happen at these real-world events. It's also pretty clear that encrypting the list would be, at best, extremely difficult, and I doubt anyone would want the problems involved. I've been on a list that did that, in addition to anonymized addresses, and it was *very* difficult, and basically boiled down to a single person (whom none of us, as far as I know, knew) who presented a single point of failure for the web of confidence. When he dropped away, the list immediately failed. So, in brief, I can see where the worry about the list being encrypted came from, but I don't think anyone at all actually wants it to happen. -- | josephzitt at josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | From jan at caustic.org Fri Aug 16 23:49:18 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] backup devices In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816190431.012ff898@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020816223328.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Skip Evans wrote: > Hey All, > > What would some of you recommend for a backup device and software on a > BSD box? Burnable CDs? We will be running a lot of list serves and need > to archive all the email for legal reasons. get a better email client. or, please start doing better wrapping. 70 char a line or so will do nicely. anyhow, for backups: depending on how much data you need to back up will pretty much determin what kind of hardware you buy. since you're new to it, might i suggest taking a look at "UNIX Backup and Recovery" from o'reilly. it's been fairly invaluable of a reference for me, since it covers just about everything i needed to learn, and some that i just didn't know enough about. figure out how much data you need to back up, plan ahead. plan around a media that will be around in 10 years, and can handle the volumes you plan on doing. plot how often you'll be doing full backups (all of the data), partials, and the rest of the crap. then, figure out what will meet your needs as far as media is concerned. for example, i use a couple Sony AIT2 tape drives at work. these are for nightly backups of the main file server, each tape holds roughly 50 gigs uncompressed, and 100 gigs compressed, data. since i do most compression in software, i can push roughly 80 gigs on to the tape, with some work and jockeying. this is only backed up once a week, in total, with lighter dumps done every night or so. the nightly backup tapes are recycled every month or so, with the full (level 0) dumps happening on a weekly basis. on another server, i have a 5 tape jukebox (DLT), doing some network backups with AMANDA (http://www.amanda.org) which is handling a large portion of our developers stuff. each tape can handle rougly 70 gigs of data, uncompressed. again, i do some software compression before the archive is recorded. the trick with backups is that there's no "One Good Solution" for anything. if you plan on scaling, you have to be ready to change and spend the money on the hardware. the other gotcha to look out for is that media is not cheap. tapes are expensive, and have a limited life. cdroms seem cheap, but you have to be sure you've got a good format, and will have a way to recover the data in X amount of years (there are entire companies dedicated to data recovery from "dead" media). included in this is shelf life, how long the backups are going to be viable. tape lasts years, how long does a dormant cdrom, dvd-rom, or equivelent last? if you use a dvd-ram drive, will the format of the dvd be readable to another dvd-rom? one of my major complaints with backup solutions is that tape costs MUCH more per gig than disk. the capasity of the average HD at home is well above the capasity of the normal "home backup" solution. for example, you can get a drive for roughly $2/gig these days (70GB/$140 or so). to get a tape drive, and tapes to handle that much data, will run you roughly $2500 for the drive, and about $50 per tape - depending on the kind of tape it is and the kind of drive. backups are expensive. not doing them is more expensive. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From rick at linuxmafia.com Sat Aug 17 00:05:07 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:05:07 -0700 Subject: [buug] backup devices In-Reply-To: <20020816223328.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816190431.012ff898@mail.mindspring.com> <20020816223328.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20020817070507.GD9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting f.johan.beisser (jan at caustic.org): [good stuff] My god. _Finally_ some reasonable comments on backups. <grin> Some supplemental materials, in case they'll help: 1. Karsten Self's Linux Backups mini-FAQ (generally useful on *ix): http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/backups.html That document links to my backup-software archive, here: http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/backup/ Here is my table of points of comparison among tape technologies: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/tape-backup-types And here are various critiques I've sent to Karsten for future coverage in his Linux Backups mini-FAQ, on points I think he missed: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/tape-backup -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From itz at speakeasy.org Sat Aug 17 08:44:38 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 17 Aug 2002 08:44:38 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162148040.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162148040.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <863ctda3rt.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> itz> Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication itz> on this list. Jeremy> I am wondering the same thing. Of course I did _not_ mean encrypting list traffic. Sorry for the ambiguity. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From ms at formulae.org Sat Aug 17 18:37:24 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:37:24 -0700 Subject: [buug] backup devices In-Reply-To: <20020816223328.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816190431.012ff898@mail.mindspring.com> <20020816223328.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20020817183724.B29501@formulae.org> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 11:49:18PM -0700, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Skip Evans wrote: > > > Hey All, > > > > What would some of you recommend for a backup device and software on a > > BSD box? Burnable CDs? We will be running a lot of list serves and need > > to archive all the email for legal reasons. > > get a better email client. or, please start doing better wrapping. 70 char > a line or so will do nicely. stop being so anal, at least he's not sending html to the list. > anyhow, for backups: fine advice.. > -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ ms From itz at speakeasy.org Sun Aug 18 12:41:39 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 18 Aug 2002 12:41:39 -0700 Subject: [buug] floppy drive sought Message-ID: <86znvk7y4s.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> I am looking for a cheap/used ED (2880) floppy drive, does anyone have a lead? (Of course I know about ebay etc. ...) -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From hedges at ucsd.edu Sun Aug 18 17:59:41 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] GPL & selling preconfigured machines In-Reply-To: <20020816143641.GA9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208181758170.6745-100000@network.ucsd.edu> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > You're imagining a problem where there isn't one. Relevant parts of the > GPL follow: Thanks, I figured; just wanted to double check. --mark-- From evans at ncseweb.org Tue Aug 20 14:22:10 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:22:10 -0700 Subject: [buug] network cards Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820141951.026bce78@mail.mindspring.com> Hi Buugs, I'm going to put this darn box online this weekend or else (spent all last weekend doing a web page of the Grand Canyon), and am wondering if I should go ahead and put the two network cards I'll need in now or wait until I get it on the web first. The reason I'm thinking of making this a two step process is to avoid and interference between the two cards while I'm getting it online. Is this a wise step or being overly cautious? Is BSD good and working with two cards and keeping them from interfering with one another? Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From ms at formulae.org Tue Aug 20 14:29:54 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:29:54 -0700 Subject: [buug] network cards In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820141951.026bce78@mail.mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820141951.026bce78@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020820142953.G40398@formulae.org> On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 02:22:10PM -0700, Skip Evans wrote: > Hi Buugs, > > I'm going to put this darn box online this weekend or else (spent all last weekend doing a web page of the Grand Canyon), and am wondering if I should go ahead and put the two network cards I'll need in now or wait until I get it on the web first. The reason I'm thinking of making this a two step process is to avoid and interference between the two cards while I'm getting it online. > > Is this a wise step or being overly cautious? Is BSD good and working with two cards and keeping them from interfering with one another? If your kernel is built to support each card they work simply work on reboot. Each will get a name which you can configure using ifconfig. Basically FreeBSD is fine with as many nics as you can put in your computer. If you are going to route packets between interfaces you'll of course need to do lots more.. Just make sure you plug the cables in to the right cards. > Skip Evans ms From john at jjdev.com Thu Aug 22 09:00:37 2002 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:00:37 -0700 Subject: [buug] Xvfb Message-ID: <20020822160037.GA16780@vette.jjdev.com> Does anyone know if there is something like Xvfb for Xsun? We are running Solaris 8 on a Ultra 60...I've got Xvfb running on our Linux boxes, but the Solaris admin is having issues installing what he considers non standard stuff... I've searched sunfreeware.com with no luck. -- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." -- Albert Einstein From will_sargent at yahoo.com Thu Aug 22 10:17:12 2002 From: will_sargent at yahoo.com (Will Sargent) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:17:12 -0700 Subject: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0208132331340.6096-100000@otaku.freeshell.org> Message-ID: <FOEGIMDOLJPAAOICMDIHAELICDAA.will_sargent@yahoo.com> > No, let's really mess his mind up. How about PL/1 or ALGOL? Intercal. Will. From robert at namodn.com Thu Aug 22 12:03:41 2002 From: robert at namodn.com (Rob Helmer) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:03:41 -0700 Subject: [buug] Xvfb In-Reply-To: <20020822160037.GA16780@vette.jjdev.com>; from john@jjdev.com on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 09:00:37AM -0700 References: <20020822160037.GA16780@vette.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20020822120341.B897@namodn.com> Hello, I've been using Xvfb from ftp.x.org on Solaris 7/8 for about 2 years in production now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but OpenWindows is based off of the free X11R6 sources, right? Seems pretty standard to me.. Sun might not support it though, depends on what kind of relationship you have with them. HTH, Rob Helmer On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 09:00:37AM -0700, johnd wrote: > Does anyone know if there is something like Xvfb for Xsun? > > We are running Solaris 8 on a Ultra 60...I've got Xvfb running on > our Linux boxes, but the Solaris admin is having issues installing what > he considers non standard stuff... > > > I've searched sunfreeware.com with no luck. > > > -- > "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." > -- Albert Einstein > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From itz at speakeasy.org Thu Aug 22 12:29:13 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 22 Aug 2002 12:29:13 -0700 Subject: [buug] IDE drives Message-ID: <86u1lm7kvq.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> As part of my latest adventures (on which I'll maybe write later), I finally made my system all-SCSI. (I hope Rick is listening :) The upshot is that I have 3 4G IDE drives in good working order to give away for pennies. More accurately, $15 each, which includes my labor erasing them (you didn't think you'd get the data too, did you). Let me know if interested. They are a 1999 Samsung, a 1997 Fujitsu, and a 1997 IBM. If you get all 3 I'll throw in 2 IDE cables. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Fri Aug 23 14:11:49 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] desk to work at and cable modem/DSL Message-ID: <20020823211149.80887.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> This is a repeat of a previous post I have need of a desk to work at and a cable/DSL/>=T1 connection for 3 months starting September 16, during "normal" working hours. I've just secured a contract, and I'd rather not work at home. I'm trying to "lease" a desk and a connection. Let me know ASAP if you're up for it. Bob ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From itz at speakeasy.org Sat Aug 24 10:11:56 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 24 Aug 2002 10:11:56 -0700 Subject: [buug] test - please ignore Message-ID: <86elcogp0j.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Eiotet ejktj yety, koruyu cbwr trjky. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From atporter at primate.net Sat Aug 24 21:03:26 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:03:26 -0700 Subject: [buug] desk to work at and cable modem/DSL In-Reply-To: <20020823211149.80887.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020823211149.80887.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020825040326.GA22160@primate.net> On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 02:11:49PM -0700, Bob Read wrote: > I have need of a desk to work at and a cable/DSL/>=T1 > connection for 3 months starting September 16, during > "normal" working hours. > > I've just secured a contract, and I'd rather not work > at home. I'm trying to "lease" a desk and a > connection. Don't know if you've checked Craigslist, but the commercial space listing seem to have a few options in Berkeley. Might be more than you're looking to spend (one place was $300/mo). But it's a start... From redorman at theofficenet.com Mon Aug 26 01:04:12 2002 From: redorman at theofficenet.com (Robert Dorman) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 01:04:12 -0700 Subject: [buug] FreeBSD 4.5 problems Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020826004722.01212cb0@mail.theofficenet.com> I am a relative newbie to UNIX systems. I have installed FreeBSD 4.5 on my Dell Dimension L800r, separate internal 30GB disk. Windows XP and Me are on a different HD. 1) After installation, including XFree86 (which subsequently wouldn't load, but that's another issue I will deal with later), and rebooting, and logging in as root, I repeatedly get the on-screen message: "getty [2**]: login tty /dev/console operation not supported by device" where ** keeps incrementing with each line. After awhile I get: "init: getty repeating too quickly on port /dev/console, sleeping 30 sec." then the first line mentioned starts repeating again. It interrupts anything else I try to do, like editing a file. (I have a 30 sec. time window to work before the damn thing wakes up again!) Even switching to a different console using ,<ctrl>D or <alt>F2, F3, or F4 and re-logging in still produced the problem. I let this go on for 24 hours once before shutting everything down. Back when I was smarter (a couple of years ago) I had this same problem and fixed it on a different computer. Now I forgot how I did it! I think it had to do with a configuration file and the overly large number of terminal logins permitted in it. 2) I have wireless DSL, which works just fine with Windows XP and Me. Sometimes I get over 1000kbps. I uses and Orinoco PCI card plugged into an adapter that plugs into my USB port. Now Orinoco supposedly has Linux drivers, but I have no idea how to get this working with FreeBSD. The drivers might only be for the PCI card hardware version rather than the USB version. Any help with these problems would certainly be appreciated. From itz at speakeasy.org Mon Aug 26 01:50:45 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 26 Aug 2002 01:50:45 -0700 Subject: [buug] gim In-Reply-To: <86adpqucob.fsf@speakeasy.org> References: <86adpqucob.fsf@speakeasy.org> Message-ID: <86wuqeq9zu.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> itz> A sneak preview of gim is available at itz> http://www.speakeasy.net/~itz/hacks/gim-0.9.1.tar.gz itz> gim is a replacement for gpm, the classic linux mouse itz> multiplexor. Unlike gpm, it doesn't speak the native protocols itz> of mice; instead, it uses gii (the General Graphics Interface itz> input library) to get mouse input. Thus, gii is a prerequisite itz> for gim. itz> I consider the code in this snapshot complete, except for itz> bugfixes. Testing is appreciated. One thing that needs to be itz> completed before a public release is documentation. I know about itz> that and will be working on it. Now up to 0.9.2, in the same place. The addition is a simple C++ interface for clients (in the libgim subdirectory of the distribution). Docs are still missing... -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From jan at caustic.org Mon Aug 26 09:58:17 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] FreeBSD 4.5 problems In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020826004722.01212cb0@mail.theofficenet.com> Message-ID: <20020826093938.Q45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Robert Dorman wrote: > I am a relative newbie to UNIX systems. I have installed FreeBSD 4.5 on my > Dell Dimension L800r, separate internal 30GB disk. Windows XP and Me are > on a different HD. > > 1) After installation, including XFree86 (which subsequently wouldn't load, > but that's another issue I will deal with later), and rebooting, and > logging in as root, I repeatedly get the on-screen message: FreeBSD and X can be a bit of a pain in the ass. it doesn't always play nice, sadly. generally if you use XFree86 4.2.0 or newer things can "Just Work". > "getty [2**]: login tty /dev/console operation not supported by device" > where ** keeps incrementing with each line. After awhile I get: > "init: getty repeating too quickly on port /dev/console, sleeping 30 sec." > then the first line mentioned starts repeating again. It interrupts > anything else I try to do, like editing a file. (I have a 30 sec. time > window to work before the damn thing wakes up again!) don't log in as root. root tends to get all your console output to the screen. it sounds like you have something in /etc/tty messed up or something mislinked. what does the console line in that file say? your next thing to check would be the fbtab. assuming all of this is just hunky-dory, you may want to check the message archives for that problem. specifically the freebsd-questions one at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com. it's rare that you'll see a problem that someone else hasn't encountered. > Even switching to a different console using ,<ctrl>D or <alt>F2, F3, or F4 > and re-logging in still produced the problem. I let this go on for 24 > hours once before shutting everything down. Back when I was smarter (a > couple of years ago) I had this same problem and fixed it on a different > computer. Now I forgot how I did it! I think it had to do with a > configuration file and the overly large number of terminal logins permitted > in it. this is probably the /etc/tty or /etc/fbtab file. > 2) I have wireless DSL, which works just fine with Windows XP and > Me. Sometimes I get over 1000kbps. I uses and Orinoco PCI card plugged > into an adapter that plugs into my USB port. Now Orinoco supposedly has > Linux drivers, but I have no idea how to get this working with > FreeBSD. The drivers might only be for the PCI card hardware version > rather than the USB version. all of the BSDs have support for the various wireless cards. most of this was written by Bill Paul. please read the man pages. the interface can be an0 (in the case of aeronet from cisco) or wi0 (orinoco/lucent). read ancontrol(8) and wicontrol(8) for details on how to make things work. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Mon Aug 26 10:42:28 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] DSL providers Message-ID: <20020826174228.87659.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> (dodging rotten vegetables being thrown at me) umm...I know we already went through a thread about "the best DSL providers", but at the time, I wasn't interested in DSL. Now, I'm interested. I own a cisco 675 and I'd like to know which company y'all recommend. I've even heard of a DSL company that donates profits to charity...what a wacky town we live in. Thanks, Bob ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From jdicioccio at epylon.com Mon Aug 26 10:59:47 2002 From: jdicioccio at epylon.com (DiCioccio, Jason) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:59:47 -0700 Subject: [buug] DSL providers Message-ID: <657B20E93E93D4118F9700D0B73CE3EA02FFF69A@goofy.epylon.lan> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 FYI.. The Cisco 675 probably won't work on anything anymore as it uses CAP encapsulation. You need a router capable of handling DMT in order to get anything anymore.. If anyone knows of one that does CAP though, I'd be interested to know. I didn't think that they existed anymore. Cheers, - -JD- > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Read [mailto:unixjavabob at yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 10:42 AM > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: [buug] DSL providers > > > (dodging rotten vegetables being thrown at me) > > umm...I know we already went through a thread about > "the best DSL providers", but at the time, I wasn't > interested in DSL. > > Now, I'm interested. I own a cisco 675 and I'd like > to know which company y'all recommend. I've even > heard of a DSL company that donates profits to > charity...what a wacky town we live in. > > Thanks, > Bob > > ===== > ----------------------------------------- > Bob Read > Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer > cell (510)-703-1634 > unixjavabob at yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------- > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPWps4jKUHizV76d/EQLDPwCfVeURmF2kLdhSygvtUv1M4V7gekoAoPNW SFDAAG3l/mQv4o9t7W10a/mk =kP3a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Mon Aug 26 12:49:55 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] DSL providers In-Reply-To: <657B20E93E93D4118F9700D0B73CE3EA02FFF69A@goofy.epylon.lan> Message-ID: <20020826194955.10559.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> So my Cisco 675 is obsolete? That's OK...I could always sell it to Bill! ha, ha Bob --- "DiCioccio, Jason" <jdicioccio at epylon.com> wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > FYI.. The Cisco 675 probably won't work on anything > anymore as it uses > CAP encapsulation. You need a router capable of > handling DMT in order > to get anything anymore.. If anyone knows of one > that does CAP though, > I'd be interested to know. I didn't think that they > existed anymore. > > Cheers, > - -JD- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob Read [mailto:unixjavabob at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 10:42 AM > > To: buug at weak.org > > Subject: [buug] DSL providers > > > > > > (dodging rotten vegetables being thrown at me) > > > > umm...I know we already went through a thread > about > > "the best DSL providers", but at the time, I > wasn't > > interested in DSL. > > > > Now, I'm interested. I own a cisco 675 and I'd > like > > to know which company y'all recommend. I've even > > heard of a DSL company that donates profits to > > charity...what a wacky town we live in. > > > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > > ===== > > ----------------------------------------- > > Bob Read > > Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer > > cell (510)-703-1634 > > unixjavabob at yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > > http://finance.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Buug mailing list > > Buug at weak.org > > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGP 7.0.4 > > iQA/AwUBPWps4jKUHizV76d/EQLDPwCfVeURmF2kLdhSygvtUv1M4V7gekoAoPNW > SFDAAG3l/mQv4o9t7W10a/mk > =kP3a > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From Bill at 1800radiator.com Mon Aug 26 17:12:30 2002 From: Bill at 1800radiator.com (Honeycutt, Bill) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:12:30 -0700 Subject: [buug] DSL providers Message-ID: <40E8BDA5BE88D311847A0008C7332AE9B8F0D8@REBMSG01> I'll swap you my Gestetner paper tape punch/reader for it :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Read [SMTP:unixjavabob at yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 12:50 PM > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: RE: [buug] DSL providers > > So my Cisco 675 is obsolete? > > That's OK...I could always sell it to Bill! > > ha, ha > > Bob > > --- "DiCioccio, Jason" <jdicioccio at epylon.com> wrote: > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > FYI.. The Cisco 675 probably won't work on anything > > anymore as it uses > > CAP encapsulation. You need a router capable of > > handling DMT in order > > to get anything anymore.. If anyone knows of one > > that does CAP though, > > I'd be interested to know. I didn't think that they > > existed anymore. > > > > Cheers, > > - -JD- > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bob Read [mailto:unixjavabob at yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 10:42 AM > > > To: buug at weak.org > > > Subject: [buug] DSL providers > > > > > > > > > (dodging rotten vegetables being thrown at me) > > > > > > umm...I know we already went through a thread > > about > > > "the best DSL providers", but at the time, I > > wasn't > > > interested in DSL. > > > > > > Now, I'm interested. I own a cisco 675 and I'd > > like > > > to know which company y'all recommend. I've even > > > heard of a DSL company that donates profits to > > > charity...what a wacky town we live in. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Bob > > > > > > ===== > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > Bob Read > > > Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer > > > cell (510)-703-1634 > > > unixjavabob at yahoo.com > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > > > http://finance.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Buug mailing list > > > Buug at weak.org > > > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: PGP 7.0.4 > > > > > iQA/AwUBPWps4jKUHizV76d/EQLDPwCfVeURmF2kLdhSygvtUv1M4V7gekoAoPNW > > SFDAAG3l/mQv4o9t7W10a/mk > > =kP3a > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > > Buug mailing list > > Buug at weak.org > > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > > > ===== > ----------------------------------------- > Bob Read > Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer > cell (510)-703-1634 > unixjavabob at yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------- > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Tue Aug 27 16:36:07 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:36:07 -0700 Subject: [buug] Non-profit group requests assistance Message-ID: <DAJIB9SWQ92I71JEB4WJHGA95J.3d6c0ce7@jwd> Perhaps some folks on the list who were ridiculously rude to me (including you, Jon), would like to apologize by offering their services to assist an online gay organization that subsidizes non-profit queer websites and mailing lists. We seriously need good programmers to develop a message board service. I am forwarding a message to this list, from the person you should contact (Will Doherty): ------- Start of forwarded message ------- From: Will Doherty <doherty at onlinepolicy.org> To: Ezekiel Krahlin <ezekielk at myrealbox.com>, list-owner TALK <list-owners-talk at groups.onlinepolicy.net> Subject: Fwd: Re: [list-owners-talk] Mailing Lists vs. Message Boards Date: 8/27/02 1:58:09 PM We have a team of programmers at work on open source message-board software that could be cloned and used for many online communities, including photos, etc. It will take some time to complete as it is a major project. If you know programmers interested in working on the project, please send them my way. One Internet with Equal Access for All, Will Doherty Online Policy Group, Inc. http://www.onlinepolicy.org ------- At 12:57 PM 8/26/2002 -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: >And this is why I'm deliberating over switching to message board format. >However, that would mean my taking a list away from Queernet...which I >want to support in every way I possibly can. If Queernet had its own >message-board service (too), I'd definitely go for that big-time. -------- End of forwarded message -------- --- "I will never abuse the Oval Orifice." - El Presidente Zeke www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 From Bill at 1800radiator.com Tue Aug 27 16:37:20 2002 From: Bill at 1800radiator.com (Honeycutt, Bill) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:37:20 -0700 Subject: [buug] Non-profit group requests assistance Message-ID: <40E8BDA5BE88D311847A0008C7332AE9B8F0DA@REBMSG01> >Ezekiel Krahlin [ezekielk at myrealbox.com] wrote: > > We seriously need good programmers to develop a message board > service. So is the message going to be anything like your previous postings?. From hedges at ucsd.edu Tue Aug 27 17:51:39 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] System.map problems with 2.4.19 Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271741330.22683-200000@network.ucsd.edu> Hi there. I wonder if this will prompt a more in-depth discussion on the function of the System.map file for those less experienced, like myself. I'm recompiling to try to support an old SoundBlaster card with the OSS module for it. Everything worked fine before this. I added this module in-kernel via `make menuconfig` and then tried to remake and everytime I get the same warning (with `ps`): {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} Warning: /boot/System.map-2.4.19 does not match kernel data. {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} Warning: /boot/System.map does not match kernel data. Normally the make script backed up the files in /boot and then installed there, but the last time I did this, I backed up and then deleted everything from /boot (except /boot/grub) and also backed up and deleted /lib/modules/2.4.19/. (The only module was the dummy net driver anyway.) I also did `make mrproper` and then restored my previous .config file after menuconfig. Then the usual cycle of dep, bzImage, install, modules, modules_install. (Was that the wrong order?) But I still get this error. I attached my .config file as "config". Ideas? --mark-- -------------- next part -------------- # # Automatically generated by make menuconfig: don't edit # CONFIG_X86=y CONFIG_ISA=y # CONFIG_SBUS is not set CONFIG_UID16=y # # Code maturity level options # CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL=y # # Loadable module support # CONFIG_MODULES=y CONFIG_MODVERSIONS=y CONFIG_KMOD=y # # Processor type and features # # CONFIG_M386 is not set # CONFIG_M486 is not set # CONFIG_M586 is not set # CONFIG_M586TSC is not set CONFIG_M586MMX=y # CONFIG_M686 is not set # CONFIG_MPENTIUMIII is not set # CONFIG_MPENTIUM4 is not set # CONFIG_MK6 is not set # CONFIG_MK7 is not set # CONFIG_MELAN is not set # CONFIG_MCRUSOE is not set # CONFIG_MWINCHIPC6 is not set # CONFIG_MWINCHIP2 is not set # CONFIG_MWINCHIP3D is not set # CONFIG_MCYRIXIII is not set CONFIG_X86_WP_WORKS_OK=y CONFIG_X86_INVLPG=y CONFIG_X86_CMPXCHG=y CONFIG_X86_XADD=y CONFIG_X86_BSWAP=y CONFIG_X86_POPAD_OK=y # CONFIG_RWSEM_GENERIC_SPINLOCK is not set CONFIG_RWSEM_XCHGADD_ALGORITHM=y CONFIG_X86_L1_CACHE_SHIFT=5 CONFIG_X86_USE_STRING_486=y CONFIG_X86_ALIGNMENT_16=y CONFIG_X86_TSC=y CONFIG_X86_GOOD_APIC=y CONFIG_X86_PPRO_FENCE=y CONFIG_X86_MCE=y # CONFIG_TOSHIBA is not set # CONFIG_I8K is not set # CONFIG_MICROCODE is not set CONFIG_X86_MSR=y CONFIG_X86_CPUID=y CONFIG_NOHIGHMEM=y # CONFIG_HIGHMEM4G is not set # CONFIG_HIGHMEM64G is not set CONFIG_MATH_EMULATION=y CONFIG_MTRR=y CONFIG_SMP=y # CONFIG_MULTIQUAD is not set CONFIG_HAVE_DEC_LOCK=y # # General setup # CONFIG_NET=y CONFIG_X86_IO_APIC=y CONFIG_X86_LOCAL_APIC=y CONFIG_PCI=y # CONFIG_PCI_GOBIOS is not set # CONFIG_PCI_GODIRECT is not set CONFIG_PCI_GOANY=y CONFIG_PCI_BIOS=y CONFIG_PCI_DIRECT=y CONFIG_PCI_NAMES=y # CONFIG_EISA is not set # CONFIG_MCA is not set # CONFIG_HOTPLUG is not set # CONFIG_PCMCIA is not set # CONFIG_HOTPLUG_PCI is not set CONFIG_SYSVIPC=y CONFIG_BSD_PROCESS_ACCT=y CONFIG_SYSCTL=y CONFIG_KCORE_ELF=y # CONFIG_KCORE_AOUT is not set CONFIG_BINFMT_AOUT=y CONFIG_BINFMT_ELF=y CONFIG_BINFMT_MISC=y CONFIG_PM=y # CONFIG_ACPI is not set CONFIG_APM=y # CONFIG_APM_IGNORE_USER_SUSPEND is not set # CONFIG_APM_DO_ENABLE is not set # CONFIG_APM_CPU_IDLE is not set # CONFIG_APM_DISPLAY_BLANK is not set CONFIG_APM_RTC_IS_GMT=y # CONFIG_APM_ALLOW_INTS is not set # CONFIG_APM_REAL_MODE_POWER_OFF is not set # # Memory Technology Devices (MTD) # # CONFIG_MTD is not set # # Parallel port support # CONFIG_PARPORT=y CONFIG_PARPORT_PC=y CONFIG_PARPORT_PC_CML1=y # CONFIG_PARPORT_SERIAL is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_PC_FIFO is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_PC_SUPERIO is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_AMIGA is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_MFC3 is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_ATARI is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_GSC is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_SUNBPP is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_OTHER is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_1284 is not set # # Plug and Play configuration # CONFIG_PNP=y CONFIG_ISAPNP=y # # Block devices # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_FD=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_XD is not set # CONFIG_PARIDE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_CPQ_DA is not set # CONFIG_BLK_CPQ_CISS_DA is not set # CONFIG_CISS_SCSI_TAPE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_DAC960 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_UMEM is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_LOOP is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_NBD is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_RAM is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_INITRD is not set # # Multi-device support (RAID and LVM) # # CONFIG_MD is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_MD is not set # CONFIG_MD_LINEAR is not set # CONFIG_MD_RAID0 is not set # CONFIG_MD_RAID1 is not set # CONFIG_MD_RAID5 is not set # CONFIG_MD_MULTIPATH is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_LVM is not set # # Networking options # CONFIG_PACKET=y CONFIG_PACKET_MMAP=y # CONFIG_NETLINK_DEV is not set CONFIG_NETFILTER=y # CONFIG_NETFILTER_DEBUG is not set CONFIG_FILTER=y CONFIG_UNIX=y CONFIG_INET=y CONFIG_IP_MULTICAST=y # CONFIG_IP_ADVANCED_ROUTER is not set # CONFIG_IP_PNP is not set # CONFIG_NET_IPIP is not set # CONFIG_NET_IPGRE is not set # CONFIG_IP_MROUTE is not set # CONFIG_ARPD is not set # CONFIG_INET_ECN is not set CONFIG_SYN_COOKIES=y # # IP: Netfilter Configuration # CONFIG_IP_NF_CONNTRACK=y CONFIG_IP_NF_FTP=y CONFIG_IP_NF_IRC=y # CONFIG_IP_NF_QUEUE is not set CONFIG_IP_NF_IPTABLES=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_LIMIT=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_MAC=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_MARK=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_MULTIPORT=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_TOS=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_AH_ESP=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_LENGTH=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_TTL=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_TCPMSS=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_STATE=y # CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_UNCLEAN is not set # CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_OWNER is not set CONFIG_IP_NF_FILTER=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_REJECT=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_MIRROR=y CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT=y CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT_NEEDED=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_MASQUERADE=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_REDIRECT=y # CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT_LOCAL is not set CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT_SNMP_BASIC=y CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT_IRC=y CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT_FTP=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MANGLE=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_TOS=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_MARK=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_LOG=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_ULOG=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_TCPMSS=y CONFIG_IP_NF_ARPTABLES=y CONFIG_IP_NF_ARPFILTER=y # CONFIG_IPV6 is not set # CONFIG_KHTTPD is not set # CONFIG_ATM is not set # CONFIG_VLAN_8021Q is not set # CONFIG_IPX is not set # CONFIG_ATALK is not set # # Appletalk devices # # CONFIG_DEV_APPLETALK is not set # CONFIG_DECNET is not set # CONFIG_BRIDGE is not set # CONFIG_X25 is not set # CONFIG_LAPB is not set # CONFIG_LLC is not set # CONFIG_NET_DIVERT is not set # CONFIG_ECONET is not set # CONFIG_WAN_ROUTER is not set # CONFIG_NET_FASTROUTE is not set # CONFIG_NET_HW_FLOWCONTROL is not set # # QoS and/or fair queueing # # CONFIG_NET_SCHED is not set # # Network testing # # CONFIG_NET_PKTGEN is not set # # Telephony Support # # CONFIG_PHONE is not set # CONFIG_PHONE_IXJ is not set # CONFIG_PHONE_IXJ_PCMCIA is not set # # ATA/IDE/MFM/RLL support # CONFIG_IDE=y # # IDE, ATA and ATAPI Block devices # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDE=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_HD_IDE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_HD is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK=y CONFIG_IDEDISK_MULTI_MODE=y # CONFIG_IDEDISK_STROKE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_VENDOR is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_FUJITSU is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_IBM is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_MAXTOR is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_QUANTUM is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_SEAGATE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_WD is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_COMMERIAL is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_TIVO is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDECS is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDECD=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDETAPE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEFLOPPY is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDESCSI is not set # CONFIG_IDE_TASK_IOCTL is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CMD640=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CMD640_ENHANCED is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ISAPNP is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_RZ1000=y CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEPCI=y CONFIG_IDEPCI_SHARE_IRQ=y CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA_PCI=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_OFFBOARD is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA_FORCED is not set CONFIG_IDEDMA_PCI_AUTO=y # CONFIG_IDEDMA_ONLYDISK is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA=y # CONFIG_IDEDMA_PCI_WIP is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA_TIMEOUT is not set # CONFIG_IDEDMA_NEW_DRIVE_LISTINGS is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ADMA=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_AEC62XX is not set # CONFIG_AEC62XX_TUNING is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ALI15X3 is not set # CONFIG_WDC_ALI15X3 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_AMD74XX is not set # CONFIG_AMD74XX_OVERRIDE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CMD64X is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CMD680 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CY82C693 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CS5530 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_HPT34X is not set # CONFIG_HPT34X_AUTODMA is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_HPT366 is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_PIIX=y CONFIG_PIIX_TUNING=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_NS87415 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_OPTI621 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_PDC202XX is not set # CONFIG_PDC202XX_BURST is not set # CONFIG_PDC202XX_FORCE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_SVWKS is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_SIS5513 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_SLC90E66 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_TRM290 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_VIA82CXXX is not set # CONFIG_IDE_CHIPSETS is not set CONFIG_IDEDMA_AUTO=y # CONFIG_IDEDMA_IVB is not set # CONFIG_DMA_NONPCI is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDE_MODES=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ATARAID is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ATARAID_PDC is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ATARAID_HPT is not set # # SCSI support # # CONFIG_SCSI is not set # # Fusion MPT device support # # CONFIG_FUSION is not set # CONFIG_FUSION_BOOT is not set # CONFIG_FUSION_ISENSE is not set # CONFIG_FUSION_CTL is not set # CONFIG_FUSION_LAN is not set # # IEEE 1394 (FireWire) support (EXPERIMENTAL) # # CONFIG_IEEE1394 is not set # # I2O device support # # CONFIG_I2O is not set # CONFIG_I2O_PCI is not set # CONFIG_I2O_BLOCK is not set # CONFIG_I2O_LAN is not set # CONFIG_I2O_SCSI is not set # CONFIG_I2O_PROC is not set # # Network device support # CONFIG_NETDEVICES=y # # ARCnet devices # # CONFIG_ARCNET is not set CONFIG_DUMMY=m # CONFIG_BONDING is not set # CONFIG_EQUALIZER is not set # CONFIG_TUN is not set # CONFIG_ETHERTAP is not set # CONFIG_NET_SB1000 is not set # # Ethernet (10 or 100Mbit) # CONFIG_NET_ETHERNET=y # CONFIG_SUNLANCE is not set # CONFIG_HAPPYMEAL is not set # CONFIG_SUNBMAC is not set # CONFIG_SUNQE is not set # CONFIG_SUNGEM is not set CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_3COM=y # CONFIG_EL1 is not set # CONFIG_EL2 is not set # CONFIG_ELPLUS is not set # CONFIG_EL16 is not set # CONFIG_EL3 is not set # CONFIG_3C515 is not set # CONFIG_ELMC is not set # CONFIG_ELMC_II is not set CONFIG_VORTEX=y # CONFIG_LANCE is not set # CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_SMC is not set # CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_RACAL is not set # CONFIG_AT1700 is not set # CONFIG_DEPCA is not set # CONFIG_HP100 is not set CONFIG_NET_ISA=y # CONFIG_E2100 is not set # CONFIG_EWRK3 is not set # CONFIG_EEXPRESS is not set # CONFIG_EEXPRESS_PRO is not set # CONFIG_HPLAN_PLUS is not set # CONFIG_HPLAN is not set # CONFIG_LP486E is not set # CONFIG_ETH16I is not set CONFIG_NE2000=y # CONFIG_NET_PCI is not set # CONFIG_NET_POCKET is not set # # Ethernet (1000 Mbit) # # CONFIG_ACENIC is not set # CONFIG_DL2K is not set # CONFIG_MYRI_SBUS is not set # CONFIG_NS83820 is not set # CONFIG_HAMACHI is not set # CONFIG_YELLOWFIN is not set # CONFIG_SK98LIN is not set # CONFIG_TIGON3 is not set # CONFIG_FDDI is not set # CONFIG_HIPPI is not set # CONFIG_PLIP is not set CONFIG_PPP=y # CONFIG_PPP_MULTILINK is not set # CONFIG_PPP_FILTER is not set CONFIG_PPP_ASYNC=y CONFIG_PPP_SYNC_TTY=y CONFIG_PPP_DEFLATE=y CONFIG_PPP_BSDCOMP=y # CONFIG_PPPOE is not set # CONFIG_SLIP is not set # # Wireless LAN (non-hamradio) # # CONFIG_NET_RADIO is not set # # Token Ring devices # # CONFIG_TR is not set # CONFIG_NET_FC is not set # CONFIG_RCPCI is not set # CONFIG_SHAPER is not set # # Wan interfaces # # CONFIG_WAN is not set # # Amateur Radio support # # CONFIG_HAMRADIO is not set # # IrDA (infrared) support # # CONFIG_IRDA is not set # # ISDN subsystem # # CONFIG_ISDN is not set # # Old CD-ROM drivers (not SCSI, not IDE) # # CONFIG_CD_NO_IDESCSI is not set # # Input core support # # CONFIG_INPUT is not set # CONFIG_INPUT_KEYBDEV is not set # CONFIG_INPUT_MOUSEDEV is not set # CONFIG_INPUT_JOYDEV is not set # CONFIG_INPUT_EVDEV is not set # # Character devices # CONFIG_VT=y CONFIG_VT_CONSOLE=y CONFIG_SERIAL=y # CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE is not set # CONFIG_SERIAL_EXTENDED is not set CONFIG_SERIAL_NONSTANDARD=y # CONFIG_COMPUTONE is not set # CONFIG_ROCKETPORT is not set # CONFIG_CYCLADES is not set # CONFIG_DIGIEPCA is not set # CONFIG_DIGI is not set # CONFIG_ESPSERIAL is not set # CONFIG_MOXA_INTELLIO is not set # CONFIG_MOXA_SMARTIO is not set # CONFIG_ISI is not set # CONFIG_SYNCLINK is not set CONFIG_N_HDLC=y # CONFIG_RISCOM8 is not set # CONFIG_SPECIALIX is not set # CONFIG_SX is not set # CONFIG_RIO is not set # CONFIG_STALDRV is not set CONFIG_UNIX98_PTYS=y CONFIG_UNIX98_PTY_COUNT=256 CONFIG_PRINTER=y # CONFIG_LP_CONSOLE is not set # CONFIG_PPDEV is not set # # I2C support # # CONFIG_I2C is not set # # Mice # # CONFIG_BUSMOUSE is not set CONFIG_MOUSE=y CONFIG_PSMOUSE=y # CONFIG_82C710_MOUSE is not set # CONFIG_PC110_PAD is not set # CONFIG_MK712_MOUSE is not set # # Joysticks # # CONFIG_INPUT_GAMEPORT is not set # CONFIG_QIC02_TAPE is not set # # Watchdog Cards # # CONFIG_WATCHDOG is not set # CONFIG_AMD_RNG is not set # CONFIG_INTEL_RNG is not set # CONFIG_NVRAM is not set # CONFIG_RTC is not set # CONFIG_DTLK is not set # CONFIG_R3964 is not set # CONFIG_APPLICOM is not set # CONFIG_SONYPI is not set # # Ftape, the floppy tape device driver # # CONFIG_FTAPE is not set CONFIG_AGP=y CONFIG_AGP_INTEL=y CONFIG_AGP_I810=y CONFIG_AGP_VIA=y CONFIG_AGP_AMD=y CONFIG_AGP_SIS=y CONFIG_AGP_ALI=y # CONFIG_AGP_SWORKS is not set CONFIG_DRM=y # CONFIG_DRM_OLD is not set CONFIG_DRM_NEW=y CONFIG_DRM_TDFX=y # CONFIG_DRM_R128 is not set CONFIG_DRM_RADEON=y # CONFIG_DRM_I810 is not set # CONFIG_DRM_MGA is not set # CONFIG_DRM_SIS is not set # CONFIG_MWAVE is not set # # Multimedia devices # # CONFIG_VIDEO_DEV is not set # # File systems # # CONFIG_QUOTA is not set # CONFIG_AUTOFS_FS is not set CONFIG_AUTOFS4_FS=y # CONFIG_REISERFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_REISERFS_CHECK is not set # CONFIG_REISERFS_PROC_INFO is not set # CONFIG_ADFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_ADFS_FS_RW is not set # CONFIG_AFFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_HFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_BFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_EXT3_FS is not set # CONFIG_JBD is not set # CONFIG_JBD_DEBUG is not set CONFIG_FAT_FS=y CONFIG_MSDOS_FS=y # CONFIG_UMSDOS_FS is not set CONFIG_VFAT_FS=y # CONFIG_EFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_JFFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_JFFS2_FS is not set # CONFIG_CRAMFS is not set CONFIG_TMPFS=y CONFIG_RAMFS=y CONFIG_ISO9660_FS=y CONFIG_JOLIET=y # CONFIG_ZISOFS is not set # CONFIG_MINIX_FS is not set # CONFIG_VXFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_NTFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_NTFS_RW is not set # CONFIG_HPFS_FS is not set CONFIG_PROC_FS=y # CONFIG_DEVFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_DEVFS_MOUNT is not set # CONFIG_DEVFS_DEBUG is not set CONFIG_DEVPTS_FS=y # CONFIG_QNX4FS_FS is not set # CONFIG_QNX4FS_RW is not set # CONFIG_ROMFS_FS is not set CONFIG_EXT2_FS=y # CONFIG_SYSV_FS is not set # CONFIG_UDF_FS is not set # CONFIG_UDF_RW is not set # CONFIG_UFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_UFS_FS_WRITE is not set # # Network File Systems # # CONFIG_CODA_FS is not set # CONFIG_INTERMEZZO_FS is not set # CONFIG_NFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_NFS_V3 is not set # CONFIG_ROOT_NFS is not set # CONFIG_NFSD is not set # CONFIG_NFSD_V3 is not set # CONFIG_SUNRPC is not set # CONFIG_LOCKD is not set # CONFIG_SMB_FS is not set # CONFIG_NCP_FS is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_PACKET_SIGNING is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_IOCTL_LOCKING is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_STRONG is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_NFS_NS is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_OS2_NS is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_SMALLDOS is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_NLS is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_EXTRAS is not set # CONFIG_ZISOFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_ZLIB_FS_INFLATE is not set # # Partition Types # # CONFIG_PARTITION_ADVANCED is not set CONFIG_MSDOS_PARTITION=y # CONFIG_SMB_NLS is not set CONFIG_NLS=y # # Native Language Support # CONFIG_NLS_DEFAULT="iso8859-1" # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_437 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_737 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_775 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_850 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_852 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_855 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_857 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_860 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_861 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_862 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_863 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_864 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_865 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_866 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_869 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_936 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_950 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_932 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_949 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_874 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_8 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_1250 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_1251 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_1 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_2 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_3 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_4 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_5 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_6 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_7 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_9 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_13 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_14 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_15 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_KOI8_R is not set # CONFIG_NLS_KOI8_U is not set CONFIG_NLS_UTF8=y # # Console drivers # CONFIG_VGA_CONSOLE=y # CONFIG_VIDEO_SELECT is not set # CONFIG_MDA_CONSOLE is not set # # Frame-buffer support # # CONFIG_FB is not set # # Sound # CONFIG_SOUND=y # CONFIG_SOUND_BT878 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_CMPCI is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_EMU10K1 is not set # CONFIG_MIDI_EMU10K1 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_FUSION is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_CS4281 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ES1370 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ES1371 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ESSSOLO1 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MAESTRO is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MAESTRO3 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ICH is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_RME96XX is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_SONICVIBES is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_TRIDENT is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MSNDCLAS is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MSNDPIN is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_VIA82CXXX is not set # CONFIG_MIDI_VIA82CXXX is not set CONFIG_SOUND_OSS=y # CONFIG_SOUND_TRACEINIT is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_DMAP is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_AD1816 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_SGALAXY is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ADLIB is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ACI_MIXER is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_CS4232 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_SSCAPE is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_GUS is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_VMIDI is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_TRIX is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MSS is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MPU401 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_NM256 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MAD16 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_PAS is not set # CONFIG_PAS_JOYSTICK is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_PSS is not set CONFIG_SOUND_SB=y # CONFIG_SOUND_AWE32_SYNTH is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_WAVEFRONT is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MAUI is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_YM3812 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_OPL3SA1 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_OPL3SA2 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_YMFPCI is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_YMFPCI_LEGACY is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_UART6850 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_AEDSP16 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_TVMIXER is not set # # USB support # CONFIG_USB=y # CONFIG_USB_DEBUG is not set # CONFIG_USB_DEVICEFS is not set # CONFIG_USB_BANDWIDTH is not set # CONFIG_USB_LONG_TIMEOUT is not set # CONFIG_USB_EHCI_HCD is not set CONFIG_USB_UHCI_ALT=y # CONFIG_USB_OHCI is not set # CONFIG_USB_AUDIO is not set # CONFIG_USB_EMI26 is not set # CONFIG_USB_BLUETOOTH is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_DEBUG is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_DATAFAB is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_FREECOM is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_ISD200 is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_DPCM is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_HP8200e is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_SDDR09 is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_JUMPSHOT is not set # CONFIG_USB_ACM is not set # CONFIG_USB_PRINTER is not set # CONFIG_USB_HID is not set # CONFIG_USB_HIDINPUT is not set # CONFIG_USB_HIDDEV is not set # CONFIG_USB_KBD is not set # CONFIG_USB_MOUSE is not set # CONFIG_USB_WACOM is not set # CONFIG_USB_DC2XX is not set # CONFIG_USB_MDC800 is not set # CONFIG_USB_SCANNER is not set # CONFIG_USB_MICROTEK is not set # CONFIG_USB_HPUSBSCSI is not set # CONFIG_USB_PEGASUS is not set # CONFIG_USB_RTL8150 is not set # CONFIG_USB_KAWETH is not set # CONFIG_USB_CATC is not set # CONFIG_USB_CDCETHER is not set # CONFIG_USB_USBNET is not set # CONFIG_USB_USS720 is not set # # USB Serial Converter support # # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_GENERIC is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_BELKIN is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_WHITEHEAT is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_DIGI_ACCELEPORT is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_EMPEG is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_FTDI_SIO is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_VISOR is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_IPAQ is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_IR is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_EDGEPORT is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_PDA is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA28 is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA28X is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA28XA is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA28XB is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA19 is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA18X is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA19W is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA49W is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_MCT_U232 is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KLSI is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_PL2303 is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_CYBERJACK is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_XIRCOM is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_OMNINET is not set # CONFIG_USB_RIO500 is not set # CONFIG_USB_AUERSWALD is not set # CONFIG_USB_BRLVGER is not set # # Bluetooth support # # CONFIG_BLUEZ is not set # # Kernel hacking # # CONFIG_DEBUG_KERNEL is not set From jammer at weak.org Tue Aug 27 18:25:48 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:25:48 -0700 Subject: [buug] System.map problems with 2.4.19 In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271741330.22683-200000@network.ucsd.edu> References: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271741330.22683-200000@network.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20020828012548.GJ23625@weak.org> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 05:51:39PM -0700, Mark Hedges wrote: > > Hi there. I wonder if this will prompt a more in-depth > discussion on the function of the System.map file for those > less experienced, like myself. > > I'm recompiling to try to support an old SoundBlaster card with > the OSS module for it. Everything worked fine before this. I > added this module in-kernel via `make menuconfig` and then tried > to remake and everytime I get the same warning (with `ps`): > > {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} > Warning: /boot/System.map-2.4.19 does not match kernel data. > {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} > Warning: /boot/System.map does not match kernel data. > > Normally the make script backed up the files in /boot and then > installed there, but the last time I did this, I backed up and > then deleted everything from /boot (except /boot/grub) and also > backed up and deleted /lib/modules/2.4.19/. (The only module > was the dummy net driver anyway.) I also did `make mrproper` > and then restored my previous .config file after menuconfig. > Then the usual cycle of dep, bzImage, install, modules, > modules_install. (Was that the wrong order?) But I still get > this error. I attached my .config file as "config". Ideas? Hmm...You did reboot, right? What distribution are you running? The System.map file gets installed during the "make install" step. -Jon From hedges at ucsd.edu Tue Aug 27 18:48:15 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] System.map problems with 2.4.19 In-Reply-To: <20020828012548.GJ23625@weak.org> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271843510.22960-100000@network.ucsd.edu> Yes, yes, I rebooted. I'm on Debian. I think I figured out what the problem was. I had previously configured advanced partition selection under the file systems menu, and selected the msdos bios partition types, and then deselected advanced partition selections without first deselecting the msdos bios partition type. That option was still set to Y in .config, although none of the requisites were, so System.map figured it should be there, but it wasn't. Or something... anyway after fixing that, and compiling the dummy net driver into the kernel instead of as a module, I remade the kernel and it works now without the warning. --mark-- On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Jon McClintock wrote: > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:25:48 -0700 > From: Jon McClintock <jammer at weak.org> > To: Mark Hedges <hedges at ucsd.edu> > Cc: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] System.map problems with 2.4.19 > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 05:51:39PM -0700, Mark Hedges wrote: > > > > Hi there. I wonder if this will prompt a more in-depth > > discussion on the function of the System.map file for those > > less experienced, like myself. > > > > I'm recompiling to try to support an old SoundBlaster card with > > the OSS module for it. Everything worked fine before this. I > > added this module in-kernel via `make menuconfig` and then tried > > to remake and everytime I get the same warning (with `ps`): > > > > {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} > > Warning: /boot/System.map-2.4.19 does not match kernel data. > > {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} > > Warning: /boot/System.map does not match kernel data. > > > > Normally the make script backed up the files in /boot and then > > installed there, but the last time I did this, I backed up and > > then deleted everything from /boot (except /boot/grub) and also > > backed up and deleted /lib/modules/2.4.19/. (The only module > > was the dummy net driver anyway.) I also did `make mrproper` > > and then restored my previous .config file after menuconfig. > > Then the usual cycle of dep, bzImage, install, modules, > > modules_install. (Was that the wrong order?) But I still get > > this error. I attached my .config file as "config". Ideas? > > Hmm...You did reboot, right? What distribution are you running? The > System.map file gets installed during the "make install" step. > > -Jon > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From jammer at weak.org Tue Aug 27 19:14:31 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:14:31 -0700 Subject: [buug] System.map problems with 2.4.19 In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271843510.22960-100000@network.ucsd.edu> References: <20020828012548.GJ23625@weak.org> <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271843510.22960-100000@network.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20020828021431.GA11577@weak.org> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 06:48:15PM -0700, Mark Hedges wrote: > > Yes, yes, I rebooted. I'm on Debian. If you're on Debian, you should really be using make-kpkg. It makes building and installing kernels nigh-simple. > I think I figured out what the problem was. I had previously > configured advanced partition selection under the file systems > menu, and selected the msdos bios partition types, and then > deselected advanced partition selections without first > deselecting the msdos bios partition type. That option was > still set to Y in .config, although none of the requisites were, > so System.map figured it should be there, but it wasn't. Or > something... anyway after fixing that, and compiling the dummy > net driver into the kernel instead of as a module, I remade the > kernel and it works now without the warning. Urm. Nope. System.map is exactly what it says it is, a map of the kernel. It's a simple text file listing the offsets of all the things (functions, data, whatnot) compiled into the kernel (look at it and see). Your kernel configuration should have nothing to do with the correlation between the running kernel and the System.map that ps was looking at. Anyway, the error is harmless. -Jon From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Tue Aug 27 20:47:25 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:47:25 -0700 Subject: [buug] Non-profit group requests assistance In-Reply-To: <20020828005202.10112.31664.Mailman@weak.org> Message-ID: <08IA6NHWUZYZJDSRC7DA06D9KHOI76.3d6c47cd@jwd> On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 "Honeycutt, Bill" <Bill at 1800radiator.com> spoke: > So is the message going to be anything like your previous postings?. I take this as a "no" from you, re. my request for good programmers to assist a non-profit organization. You would be much better off not to reply at all, if you don't want to help. And, my original request gave you the correct person to contact, if you did want to help. Can't you read? I did not say to post back to me, in this matter. So, put on your thinking cap, and try being the good little hacker you think you are. And no, my message is NOT anything like my previous posting...which was a humorous dig at the hacker world with a queer spin to it. It was also my way for expressing the enthusiasm and appreciation I feel for the good hackers who have been so much fun and friendly. My apologies for interjecting a little humor among a bunch of apparantly sour-faced idiot savants. FYI, BUUG still advertises itself as friendly to new users, as well as a place to hang out, and schmooze. There is no change in this policy indicated on the BUUG website. Therefore, my humorous article seemed something nice to contribute, in my way of resuming participation. Apparantly Jon does not assume responsibility in providing a forum for non-technical discussion...since his panties are so twisted up over my posting a humorous piece. It is up to him, to either create a second mailing list for non-technical discussions--which is a great way to encourage newbies to "stick with it" re. learning Unix type programs--or change BUUG's policy statement to *exclude* newbies. If a little humor on the main list is for some *queer* reason verboten, then Jon needs to provide another online venue for lighter discus- sions...if indeed he can control his elitist attitude from excluding Unix newbies. I find some of the participants here extremely creepy and sallow. To the detriment of BUUG and potential new members who are likely driven away by such smug attitudes like yours...and which Jon does nothing to discourage. Obviously, an element of homophobia clearly is part of the mix of this little CyberCabal. You either offer help to the non-profit gay online group I asked, or you do not respond with catty replies...if you have any sense of decency. Too bad for Jon, that he did not stop your rude message from being posted. I take that as a "green light" to tell you that you are a royal arse of the first degree. I mean, after all, *goading* me is only a setup to make your cabal look good on the surface, and to demean my statements. --- "I will never abuse the Oval Orifice." - El Presidente Zeke www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 From ms at formulae.org Tue Aug 27 21:50:05 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:50:05 -0700 Subject: [buug] Non-profit group requests assistance In-Reply-To: <DAJIB9SWQ92I71JEB4WJHGA95J.3d6c0ce7@jwd> References: <DAJIB9SWQ92I71JEB4WJHGA95J.3d6c0ce7@jwd> Message-ID: <20020827215005.I66365@formulae.org> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 04:36:07PM -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > Perhaps some folks on the list who were ridiculously rude to me (including you, Jon), would like to apologize by offering their services to assist an first that would assume we have something to apologize about. > online gay organization that subsidizes non-profit queer websites and mailing lists. We seriously need good programmers to develop a message board > service. I am forwarding a message to this list, from the person you should contact (Will Doherty): in any case, since you'll not get any inkling of tech support from me, i suggest you find one of the many existing message board programs and learn how to install it. i assume you know how to use a search engine. ms From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Tue Aug 27 22:36:40 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:36:40 -0700 Subject: [buug] Non-profit group requests assistance In-Reply-To: <20020827215005.I66365@formulae.org> Message-ID: <XRXV6ZON2YQICKE51LK1NHDC05WPK.3d6c6168@jwd> 8/27/02 9:50:05 PM, Michael Salmon <ms at formulae.org> wrote: >in any case, since you'll not get any inkling of tech support from me, That's okay. At least you have a sensible suggestion, though misconstrued. >i suggest you find one of the many existing message board programs This message board is for an ISP server, not an individual web site. OPG (Online Policy Group) - http://www.onlinepolicy.org/ - is the LGBT service that sponsors non-profit groups, including myself. They have been providing mailing lists for a few years, and want to also provide message boards to its subscribers. If anyone wants to know the details, and why OPG wants to build one for themselves, feel free to ask OPG President Will Doherty at - doherty at onlinepolicy.org - . >learn how to install it. i assume you know how to use a search engine. Sure. And I assume you know how to read...though some hackers I've met seem to be lacking in advanced English skills, and socializing. That is where I step in at times, to facilitate hacker groups. As for installing message boards, I've installed and run quite a few in my time, including (my favorite): DISCUS - http://www.discusware.com/discus/index.php - . And in the Pre-Internet days (the "golden age" of BBS'ing), I preferred running Maximus on my own system, and on those of my clients. I still enjoy Maximus for its clean interface and ease of customizing. I was planning to install a board on my website (which permits cgi), until I learned that OPG wants to create a board service for all members. As for search engines, my favorite is AllTheWeb (2nd favorite is Google). And I reiterate: the rudeness by some members here towards my original post is really inexcusable, and shameful. I think that at least one person who behaved in this manner, might realize this, and be glad to make things up to me, by offering some quality assistance to OPG. That would really make my day. --- "I will never abuse the Oval Orifice." - El Presidente Zeke www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 From mikehomesteads at hotmail.com Wed Aug 28 10:36:31 2002 From: mikehomesteads at hotmail.com (Michael Stead) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:36:31 -0700 Subject: [buug] lowercase coversion of filenames Message-ID: <F267liTOs9nYcwga4nP00009a3b@hotmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://buug.org/pipermail/buug/attachments/20020828/aa9e9111/attachment.html> From atporter at primate.net Wed Aug 28 10:59:21 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:59:21 -0700 Subject: [buug] lowercase coversion of filenames In-Reply-To: <F267liTOs9nYcwga4nP00009a3b@hotmail.com> References: <F267liTOs9nYcwga4nP00009a3b@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20020828175921.GS10820@primate.net> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 10:36:31AM -0700, Michael Stead wrote: > I do GIS 'cause it is so much fun, as is UNIX and all this good stuff. > Anyways I recently ran an AML script that has always worked before and > came up with problems. I am trying to loop through a directory and run > a translation process on each file. Unfortunately someone named all > these files with some capital letters embedded in the filenames. Does > anyone know what the UNIX commmand or procedure would be to remedy > this? Something like 'tr', but for filenames? What's wrong with tr? And how about not posting in HTML next time? for file in * ; do mv $file `echo $file | tr [:upper:] [:lower:]` ; done From evans at ncseweb.org Wed Aug 28 11:00:56 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:00:56 -0700 Subject: [buug] Newbie question - obsolete sessions? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828105906.02754d30@mail.mindspring.com> Hey all, Got my freeBSD box up and going and am in the process of configuring majordomo. I'm telneting to it right now from a PC in the office. I just closed the cmd shell on the PC yesterday while logged in as root and when I logged in as myself today I see a root session running but now IP address. Is that a session the system always has up for some reason or is it my old session that I did not log out from yesterday? It doesn't show my IP address like the session under my name does. Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From atporter at primate.net Wed Aug 28 11:01:29 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:01:29 -0700 Subject: [buug] lowercase coversion of filenames In-Reply-To: <20020828175921.GS10820@primate.net> References: <F267liTOs9nYcwga4nP00009a3b@hotmail.com> <20020828175921.GS10820@primate.net> Message-ID: <20020828180129.GT10820@primate.net> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 10:59:21AM -0700, Aaron T Porter wrote: > What's wrong with tr? And how about not posting in HTML next time? > > for file in * ; do mv $file `echo $file | tr [:upper:] [:lower:]` ; done Guess I should note that this will work in Bash, other shells would be a bit different. From cmsclaud at arches.uga.edu Wed Aug 28 11:04:49 2002 From: cmsclaud at arches.uga.edu (Claude Rubinson) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] lowercase coversion of filenames In-Reply-To: <F267liTOs9nYcwga4nP00009a3b@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.10208281358260.188666-100000@archa15.cc.uga.edu> On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Michael Stead wrote: > translation process on each file. Unfortunately someone named all these > files with some capital letters embedded in the filenames. Does anyone > know what the UNIX commmand or procedure would be to remedy this? > Something like 'tr', but for filenames? There are about a million ways to do this, including using tr. The below shell script should work, althouth I haven't tested it. for filename in $(ls|grep [A-Z]; do mv $filename $(echo $filename|tr [:upper:] [:lower:]) done For something more sophisticated you could do a web search for DOS to Unix filename conversions, since this is a common problem. c. From jammer at weak.org Wed Aug 28 11:12:49 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:12:49 -0700 Subject: [buug] Newbie question - obsolete sessions? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828105906.02754d30@mail.mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828105906.02754d30@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020828181249.GI24050@weak.org> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 11:00:56AM -0700, Skip Evans wrote: > Got my freeBSD box up and going and am in the process of configuring majordomo. I'm telneting to it right now from a PC in the office. I just closed the cmd shell on the PC yesterday while logged in as root and when I logged in as myself today I see a root session running but now IP address. Hmm... A couple of things to point out: - majordomo is icky. Try mailman, it's much nicer. - You really shouldn't be using telnet in these modern times. Use SSH. Encryption == good. Clear text passwords == bad. > Is that a session the system always has up for some reason or is it my old session that I did not log out from yesterday? It doesn't show my IP address like the session under my name does. It's hard to tell what you mean... Try pasting the output of the 'w' command. -Jon From psoltani at ultradns.com Wed Aug 28 11:53:13 2002 From: psoltani at ultradns.com (Patrick Soltani) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:53:13 -0700 Subject: [buug] Newbie question - obsolete sessions? Message-ID: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF53968B@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> Hi, when you aborted or disconnected the session without issuing logout command, the server will keep the entry; doing w or who will show the session, however, it is not active. Usually flagged as idle. There is nothing to worry about, however, you can get the pid and do a kill -9 and that should clear it up for you. Any subsequent session will have its own id, etc. Regards, Patrick Soltani. > -----Original Message----- > From: Skip Evans [mailto:evans at ncseweb.org] > Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:01 AM > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: [buug] Newbie question - obsolete sessions? > > > Hey all, > > Got my freeBSD box up and going and am in the process of > configuring majordomo. I'm telneting to it right now from a > PC in the office. I just closed the cmd shell on the PC > yesterday while logged in as root and when I logged in as > myself today I see a root session running but now IP address. > > Is that a session the system always has up for some reason or > is it my old session that I did not log out from yesterday? > It doesn't show my IP address like the session under my name does. > > > Skip Evans > Network Project Director > National Center for Science Education > 420 40th St, Suite 2 > Oakland, CA 94609 > 510-601-7203 > 510-601-7204 (fax) > 800-290-6006 > evans at ncseweb.org > http://www.ncseweb.org > > NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that > this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for > members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about > the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. > > To sign up send: > subscribe ncse your at email.address > to: majordomo at inia.cls.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From evans at ncseweb.org Wed Aug 28 20:06:30 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:06:30 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> Okay, I'm going to go ahead and sound really dumb here. But I just configured all the aliases and stuff for my first list serve under majordomo, and I need to stop and restart sendmail. I can't find out how to stop it; I am assuming there is a nice, clean way to do this and then just re-execute it? Hey, at least I'm making all you guys feel smart...(-er than your average dummy). Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From jammer at weak.org Wed Aug 28 20:09:54 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:09:54 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020829030954.GA2658@weak.org> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 08:06:30PM -0700, Skip Evans wrote: > Okay, I'm going to go ahead and sound really dumb here. But I just configured all the aliases and stuff for my first list serve under majordomo, and I need to stop and restart sendmail. I can't find out how to stop it; I am assuming there is a nice, clean way to do this and then just re-execute it? > > Hey, at least I'm making all you guys feel smart...(-er than your average dummy). You shouldn't have to restart sendmail...just run 'newaliases'. But, just so you know, /etc/init.d/sendmail can be used to stop/start sendmail. It takes a single argument, run it with no arguments to see what they are. -Jon From jammer at weak.org Wed Aug 28 21:10:22 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:10:22 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question In-Reply-To: <20020829030954.GA2658@weak.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> <20020829030954.GA2658@weak.org> Message-ID: <20020829041022.GE2658@weak.org> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 08:09:54PM -0700, Jon McClintock wrote: > But, just so you know, /etc/init.d/sendmail can be used to stop/start > sendmail. It takes a single argument, run it with no arguments to see > what they are. Whups. As Skip pointed out, he's running FreeBSD, not Debian. What's the kosher way to restart sendmail on FreeBSD? -Jon From itz at speakeasy.org Thu Aug 29 00:26:03 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 29 Aug 2002 00:26:03 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question In-Reply-To: <20020829041022.GE2658@weak.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> <20020829030954.GA2658@weak.org> <20020829041022.GE2658@weak.org> Message-ID: <86ptw2p1mc.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> >> But, just so you know, /etc/init.d/sendmail can be used to >> stop/start sendmail. It takes a single argument, run it with no >> arguments to see what they are. Jon> Whups. As Skip pointed out, he's running FreeBSD, not Jon> Debian. What's the kosher way to restart sendmail on FreeBSD? kill `ps ax | fgrep sendmail | fgrep -v fgrep | awk '{print $1;}'` ; sendmail -bd -q30 :-) or install daemontools -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From evans at ncseweb.org Thu Aug 29 10:36:34 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:36:34 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question In-Reply-To: <3D6D9E76.1010501@baywinds.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829103556.0286d2d0@mail.mindspring.com> FreeBSD 4.5, distribution? Don't know. At 09:09 PM 8/28/2002 -0700, Bruce Ferrell wrote: >The exact method is dependant on the distribution your using. which OS/Distro are you using? > >Skip Evans wrote: > >>Okay, I'm going to go ahead and sound really dumb here. But I just configured all the aliases and stuff for my first list serve under majordomo, and I need to stop and restart sendmail. I can't find out how to stop it; I am assuming there is a nice, clean way to do this and then just re-execute it? >>Hey, at least I'm making all you guys feel smart...(-er than your average dummy). >> >>Skip Evans >>Network Project Director >>National Center for Science Education >>420 40th St, Suite 2 >>Oakland, CA 94609 >>510-601-7203 >>510-601-7204 (fax) >>800-290-6006 >>evans at ncseweb.org >> http://www.ncseweb.org >>NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. >>To sign up send: >>subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Buug mailing list >>Buug at weak.org >>http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From evans at ncseweb.org Thu Aug 29 10:49:21 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:49:21 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829103556.0286d2d0@mail.mindspring.com> References: <3D6D9E76.1010501@baywinds.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829104844.0287da30@mail.mindspring.com> And by the way, I just checked this morning and the list is up and running fine. But it wasn't at 9:30pm last night when I gave up and went for a drink. This system mocks me! At 10:36 AM 8/29/2002 -0700, you wrote: >FreeBSD 4.5, distribution? Don't know. > >At 09:09 PM 8/28/2002 -0700, Bruce Ferrell wrote: >>The exact method is dependant on the distribution your using. which OS/Distro are you using? >> >>Skip Evans wrote: >> >>>Okay, I'm going to go ahead and sound really dumb here. But I just configured all the aliases and stuff for my first list serve under majordomo, and I need to stop and restart sendmail. I can't find out how to stop it; I am assuming there is a nice, clean way to do this and then just re-execute it? >>>Hey, at least I'm making all you guys feel smart...(-er than your average dummy). >>> >>>Skip Evans >>>Network Project Director >>>National Center for Science Education >>>420 40th St, Suite 2 >>>Oakland, CA 94609 >>>510-601-7203 >>>510-601-7204 (fax) >>>800-290-6006 >>>evans at ncseweb.org >>> http://www.ncseweb.org >>>NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. >>>To sign up send: >>>subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Buug mailing list >>>Buug at weak.org >>>http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug >> > > >Skip Evans >Network Project Director >National Center for Science Education >420 40th St, Suite 2 >Oakland, CA 94609 >510-601-7203 >510-601-7204 (fax) >800-290-6006 >evans at ncseweb.org > http://www.ncseweb.org > >NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. > >To sign up send: >subscribe ncse your at email.address >to: majordomo at inia.cls.org > > >_______________________________________________ >Buug mailing list >Buug at weak.org >http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From psoltani at ultradns.com Thu Aug 29 11:40:35 2002 From: psoltani at ultradns.com (Patrick Soltani) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:40:35 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question Message-ID: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF5DDAEC@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Skip Evans [mailto:evans at ncseweb.org] > Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:49 AM > To: Skip Evans > Cc: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] Super newbie question > > > And by the way, I just checked this morning and the list is > up and running fine. But it wasn't at 9:30pm last night when > I gave up and went for a drink. > May be the drink did the trick. You can always kill -9 the sendmail, however, depending on how it is started, you can shut it down cleanly. check the /usr/local/etc/rc.d/ directory and look for sendmail.sh file, or look into /etc/rc.local file for possible locations that sendmail gets started at the boot time. Regards, Patrick Soltani. From billoomal at yahoo.com Thu Aug 29 20:40:27 2002 From: billoomal at yahoo.com (HD) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] NetBSD 1.5.2, SS5/10/20 and RAID Message-ID: <20020830034027.39830.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I consider myself a complete newbie to the world on *nixes. I mean I comfortable with them, and can even do some basic stuff, but am really awed by the amount of knowledge I have seen float around on this list. With that in mind, I hope the responses to my question are in a style lucid than most others :) So I have a couple of sparc5s, a 2P sparc10 and a 2P sparc20. All of these boxes have two drives of around 1 gb each. I have been wanting to install NetBSD 1.5.2 on them, and set up RAID 0 (plain striping??) so can double my capacity and get some performance advantage. Ok, so how do I do it? I want to ensure that / and swap are striped too. Does anyone here have any pointers on how to go about this task. I don't know if it is too ambitious to do so, when I am familiarizing myself with NetBSD, but then I figure that is how I am going to learn. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Cheers! HD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From jan at caustic.org Thu Aug 29 20:58:37 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] NetBSD 1.5.2, SS5/10/20 and RAID In-Reply-To: <20020830034027.39830.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020829204727.A45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, HD wrote: > I have been wanting to install NetBSD 1.5.2 on them, > and set up RAID 0 (plain striping??) so can double my > capacity and get some performance advantage. why? you'd get a single drive capable of failure, instead of having 2 drives per machine (that are both capable of failure). if you get a single error on one of the two drives, you lose the data on both. not all that useful. when you have a bunch of smaller disks, and need to combine then (3 or more) in to one, then it's a good idea, but you still risk failure wiping out all your data; so keep backups. > Ok, so how do I do it? I want to ensure that / and > swap are striped too. Does anyone here have any > pointers on how to go about this task. I don't know if > it is too ambitious to do so, when I am familiarizing > myself with NetBSD, but then I figure that is how I am > going to learn. don't. firstly, it's not worth concatinating 2 disks. it might boost performance, but on disks that small, you're better off using one for the OS/swap and the other for /home or equivelent. secondly, i don't think you can boot off of a concatinated disk in any of the BSDs. you'll probably need to have a single OS disk anyway. but, it is a good way to learn. good luck, and have fun. > Any help will be greatly appreciated. sure. not all that familiar with NetBSD, though. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From evans at ncseweb.org Fri Aug 30 14:51:25 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:51:25 -0700 Subject: [buug] majordomo dropping messages with attachments Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830144534.029186b8@mail.mindspring.com> Hi all, Just got majordomo configured on our new BSD box and it's doing something funny (not ha ha funny, peculiar funny.) We have a list for the office and any message that has an attachment does not come through. Now eventually we will configure it to strip all attachments to prevent the spreading of viruses that way, but I'd like to know why it's doing this all the same. Here are the maillog entries for one with attachments. Aug 30 12:20:09 www sendmail[44603]: g7UJK8344603: from=<branch at ncseweb.org>, size=696, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<5.1.0.14.0.20020830122101.0418da08 at mail.mindspring.com>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=hall.mail. mindspring.net [207.69.200.60] Aug 30 12:20:09 www sendmail[44604]: g7UJK9344604: clone g7UJK8344603, owner=skip Aug 30 12:20:10 www sendmail[44607]: gethostbyaddr(192.168.1.108) failed: 1 Aug 30 12:20:11 www sendmail[44607]: g7UJKAY44607: from=owner-ncseoffice at ncseweb2.org, size=1168, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<200208301920.g7UJKAY44607 at www.ncseweb2.org>, relay=majordomo at localhost Aug 30 12:20:11 www sendmail[44604]: g7UJK9344604: to="|/usr/bin/majordomo/wrapper resend -l ncseoffice nc seoffice-list", ctladdr=<ncseoffice at ncseweb2.org> (26/0), delay=00:00:02, xdelay=00:00:02, mailer=prog, pr i=30118, dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent Aug 30 12:20:11 www sendmail[44609]: g7UJKAY44607: to=skip, delay=00:00:01, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=local, pri=31168, relay=local, dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent And it just ends there. The ones without attachments go through and end with (Message queued). Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From evans at ncseweb.org Fri Aug 30 17:02:16 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:02:16 -0700 Subject: [buug] Drivers in BSD 4.5 for firewire drives? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830170055.0293baa8@mail.mindspring.com> I'm wondering if I can't use a second drive for a backup, running it like once a week or so, connected to a firewire drive that I can unplug and take off site when the backup is complete. Are there drivers for these things in BSD 4.5? Or is the whole idea just plain silly. Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From jan at caustic.org Fri Aug 30 17:39:18 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Drivers in BSD 4.5 for firewire drives? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830170055.0293baa8@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020830170852.U45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Skip Evans wrote: > I'm wondering if I can't use a second drive for a backup, running it > like once a week or so, connected to a firewire drive that I can unplug > and take off site when the backup is complete. > > Are there drivers for these things in BSD 4.5? BSD/OS, no. FreeBSD.. i'm not sure off hand. i don't think so. but, from the looks of it, it doesn't seem that it does, at least in 4.6-RELEASE. this doesn't mean it won't be supported. one other solution is to simply use SCSI drives, or use the removable drive bays. > Or is the whole idea just plain silly. the only issue is making sure that your drives are going to work accross the board. this means you should probably use something other than FFS or UFS for the drive. most people i know would suggest using a FAT32 disk for this, since it should be supported under most OSs that you might install or use. the limitation is filename size, although it can be fairly easily bypassed or handled anyway. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche

From hedges at ucsd.edu Thu Aug 1 12:07:07 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] `stty 0` Message-ID: I got a login fortune that says "Try stty 0 -- it works much better." I figure this is some kind of prank, but all it says is "unable to perform all requested operations." Does anyone recall what the joke was? Just curious. --mark-- From itz at speakeasy.org Thu Aug 1 13:07:41 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 01 Aug 2002 13:07:41 -0700 Subject: [buug] `stty 0` In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86k7nabawi.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Mark> I got a login fortune that says "Try stty 0 -- it works much Mark> better." I figure this is some kind of prank, but all it says Mark> is "unable to perform all requested operations." Does anyone Mark> recall what the joke was? Just curious. On pre-termios systems it probably turned all the terminal modes off. Including echo, nl->cr translation, and a few others that are somewhat helpful. However, on my machine "man stty" says: >> stty [-F DEVICE] [--file=DEVICE] [SETTING]... >> The underlying system defines which settings are available. So in any case the joke is not portable :) -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Thu Aug 1 13:10:55 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] `stty 0` In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020801201055.76198.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> From man stty: 0 Hang up line immediately. Back in the day, it was common to use "stty" in conjunction with other tools such as "cu" or "kermit" to control the behaviour on either end of modem connections. I have semi-memories of controlling modem IO by redirecting stdout and stdin to the modem's terminal...In fact, I think you can redirect an "stty 0" to hang up someone else's connection. That said, these days, stty is rarely used beyond trivial tasks such as defining your backspace character. Bob --- Mark Hedges wrote: > > I got a login fortune that says "Try stty 0 -- it > works much > better." I figure this is some kind of prank, but > all it says > is "unable to perform all requested operations." > Does anyone > recall what the joke was? Just curious. > --mark-- > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From itz at speakeasy.org Thu Aug 1 13:40:31 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 01 Aug 2002 13:40:31 -0700 Subject: [buug] `stty 0` In-Reply-To: <20020801201055.76198.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020801201055.76198.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86ptx2ia80.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Bob> From man stty: 0 Hang up line immediately. Right, I guess with any numeric argument it just calls cfsetospeed(3). man termios says >> cfsetospeed() sets the output baud rate stored in the >> termios structure pointed to by termios_p to speed, which >> must be one of these constants: >> B0 [...] >> B115200 >> The zero baud rate, B0, is used to terminate the connection. >> If B0 is specified, the modem control lines shall no longer >> be asserted. Normally, this will disconnect the line. and my man stty mentions >> Special settings: >> N set the input and output speeds to N bauds but not 0 explicitly. I think I will have to try it to see if it really works :) -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From itz at speakeasy.org Thu Aug 1 14:03:29 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 01 Aug 2002 14:03:29 -0700 Subject: [buug] `stty 0` In-Reply-To: <86ptx2ia80.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> References: <20020801201055.76198.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> <86ptx2ia80.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <86u1meqoke.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> >> Special settings: >> N set the input and output speeds to N bauds itz> but not 0 explicitly. I think I will have to try it to see if it itz> really works :) interesting.. kronstadt:~$ stty speed 38400 baud; line = 80; kronstadt:~$ stty 0 stty: standard input: unable to perform all requested operations kronstadt:~$ stty speed 0 baud; line = 80; kronstadt:~$ the same result on xterm and a virtual terminal. It looks like cfsetospeed tries to set the speed to 0 _and_ twiddle the modem lines, and the VT/pty driver's failure to do the latter is what the error message refers to. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From itz at speakeasy.org Mon Aug 5 09:15:50 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 05 Aug 2002 09:15:50 -0700 Subject: [buug] linux is out of control Message-ID: <86d6sxmgcp.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> With the release of linux 2.4.19 last weekend, the unpacked source tree is about 160M large. Does anyone else see this as a problem (before you reply "disk space is cheap" please think about my sig just this once), and if so, what solutions or measures can you suggest to deal with it? As an example of the kind of answer I'm hoping for, long ago I actually used to trim the tree by deleting the parts I had no use for. I don't remember what changes I had to make in the build process to have "make config" etc. behave correctly, though. Thanks for your thoughts, -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From nick at zork.net Mon Aug 5 09:40:12 2002 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:40:12 -0700 Subject: [buug] ...And a PHP reference? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730160143.02205858@mail.mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020730160143.02205858@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020805164012.GT28653@zork.net> begin Skip Evans quotation: > I'll also need a PHP book... recommendations? I see on the web many > of them are geared towards MySQL, but I imagine on a BSD box I can > get a better DB than MySQL. Recommendations there? I found that New Riders makes some excellent technical reference books. You should pop by your local bookstore and flip through the PHP reference they make. -- Jack Valenti is to the American film viewer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone. -- http://cryptome.org/hrcw-hear.htm (search for "Boston") From jan at caustic.org Mon Aug 5 10:09:26 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] linux is out of control In-Reply-To: <86d6sxmgcp.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20020805092729.L45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On 5 Aug 2002, Ian Zimmerman wrote: > With the release of linux 2.4.19 last weekend, the unpacked source > tree is about 160M large. i'd simply grab the patches, and occasionally clean out the source tree. this should help keep the bulk and bloat down. > Does anyone else see this as a problem (before you reply "disk space > is cheap" please think about my sig just this once), and if so, what > solutions or measures can you suggest to deal with it? only grab the sources you need, for the hardware you need. that's probably all you can do, really. the other bit you covered down below.. > As an example of the kind of answer I'm hoping for, long ago I > actually used to trim the tree by deleting the parts I had no use > for. I don't remember what changes I had to make in the build process > to have "make config" etc. behave correctly, though. i really don't know, off hand. the obvious changes would be specific hardware support removal. as a comparison, kind of.. OpenBSD-current's normal kernel source du -h /usr/src/sys 93M /usr/src/sys FreeBSD-4.5's normal kernel source.. du -h /usr/src/sys 78M /usr/src/sys please note that OpenBSD supports 15 (alpha, i386, sparc, sparc64, powerpc, etc) different architectures, and FreeBSD 4.5 only supports 3 (alpha, i386, pc98). your normal linux kernel has some really obscure hardware, and fairly unusual architecture support. i suspect that NetBSD is larger than either, since it's supporting roughly 28 very different architectures. no matter what OS you're running, if you handle the source code, it's going to be a little bloaty. especially if there are many unusual drivers and support for many rare pieces of hardware that you don't have. this holds very true for Linux, since it's generally maintaining support for most common (and uncommon) pieces of hardware. if you can find a way of simply grabbing the drivers you need that will probably cure your bloat problem. of course, i'm not exceedingly familiar with Linux.. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From itz at speakeasy.org Mon Aug 5 10:17:42 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 05 Aug 2002 10:17:42 -0700 Subject: [buug] linux is out of control In-Reply-To: <20020805092729.L45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <20020805092729.L45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <864re9mdhl.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> itz> With the release of linux 2.4.19 last weekend, the unpacked itz> source tree is about 160M large. jan> i'd simply grab the patches, and occasionally clean out the jan> source tree. this should help keep the bulk and bloat down. Okay, this gives me something to consider. Right now I keep the whole tree for each patchlevel. I'll see if I can automate the process of applying the last patch, applying detached patches (like Robert Love's scheduler patch) and building. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From cmsclaud at arches.uga.edu Mon Aug 5 13:04:03 2002 From: cmsclaud at arches.uga.edu (Claude Rubinson) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] AT&T Cable Modem? Message-ID: I'm in the process of moving and am considering switching from PacBell DSL to AT&T cable modem. What experiences have y'all had with AT&T cable modem service (under Linux) out here in Berkeley? (I've been with PacBell since I got out here and, overall, they've been pretty good.) Thanks, Claude From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Mon Aug 5 14:07:03 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 14:07:03 -0700 Subject: [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters Message-ID: Speaking as a recently-officialized Highest Order Meatspace Orifice (or HOMO), I realize it is time for me to present a blueprint before assuming my newly-assigned duties as Stool Pigeon Xtraordinaire. As you know the theme of my blueprint is gay, or queer, liberation...in such a way as to benefit all other oppressed people, once everyone on earth learns to respect same-sex love for the decent alternative lifestyle it truly is. My love of the PC/hacker underground and/or counterculture--along with handsome homeless intellectual renegades--obviously plays a major role in weaving this blueprint (argh, such crap metaphor, I couldn't resist). I will also very soon become intimately connected with government on all levels. This is in order to disseminate: ---my trojan horse MeatHack: I have met many wonderful hackers in the East Bay, who are some of the most patriotic and responsible folks I've ever met. So please consider contacting any of them, if our government's electronic security is ever in danger, or in need of additional protection or repair. or more superb employees. They have nothing to hide: their real names, e-mail addresses and meeting places are all up there on websites open to everyone. And I promise: whomever of these great patriots you hire will give you far more "bang for the buck" than you'd ever dream...far overmatching the excellent salary they'll surely receive (for such valued and meritorious actions in the face of enemy fire). To get you started, just log onto the website of the hackers group I founded in Jan. 2000, the "Berkeley Unix User Group": http://www.weak.org/buug/ There, we have links to other hacker-relevant websites, constantly updated calendar of events, and directions to all our meeting places. Please go through them, instead of me, for any further needs in the matter of U.S. electronic security...as I am already tremendously occupied with liberating our homosexual citizens, which in turn will make our great nation even greater. Sincerely, Ezekiel J. Krahlin Gay Activist / Homeless Advocate / U.S. Patriot ---end of my trojan horse MeatHack: So that will be my tact, which I believe is respectful and productive for both major parties involved. How will I instigate this scenario? Likely in this manner: Living on low income as I do, I always look for the cheapest, dirtiest ISP for as much under $15 as possible. So I found "Talent Group Enterprises" (TGE) http://www.talentg.com/ for a mere $8!!! They take only electronic payments via credit or check...but you only pay month-by-month. So, they hook me up pronto, which pleases me. But then I can't get my e-mail SMTP working properly. This took a few days to discover I needed this new "SMTP authentication", so rather than resort to "Outlook", I "looked out" for freeware alternatives, and of course found Eudora and Pegasus to be quite up to snuff. (TGE rep. was no help in helping correct my situation...did not even tell me where to find a free mail client.) [Yes, sorry, I bow my head in shame: I am stuck with Windoze because I am a meatspace hacker, not a cyberspace hacker, and thus must have a tighter interface with "them", in order to let information pass through my intuitive AC/DC converter (analog country/digital country). You have no idea how much disdain and disgust I have for this filthiest of jobs...so I'll be SOOOOO happy to finally put an end to this person's war, scrub myself down like an old ship with barnacles, and just hang with my best buddy, yours and ours, Commander in Chief, Randolph Louis Taylor (to whom I dedicate my entire life, not just webiste). Nonetheless, I'm PROUD to be a grunt, and always WILL be proud. Without us digital-to-analog nodes--who needed to excel in Liberal Arts (esp. English, Humanities, and Anthropology) in order to facilitate our loyal cyberhackers--you digital geniuses would have a lot tougher row to hoe! But Goddess bless you all for your most beautiful minds.] But I digress... Anyways, TGE had my e-mail working for a while, but then I lost my SMTP ability (claiming wrong name or password), even though the password is the same for POP as SMTP. I concluded a worker there was trying to resolve my problem, and diddled with my account settings in the wrong way. So I posted back to their support, and before hearing from them again, the next day I couldn't even connect using any of my three local S.F. numbers they provide on their websites' list. I was able to connect to the web once they hooked me up, despite the e-mail problem. But now, I can't even do that. I am now in the fifth day of no success connecting via TGE's ISP. So, using another's account, I logged onto their website, without finding any information to clue me in. But they do provide voice phone numbers, like so: 843-667-1465 877-TGROUPE I called this morning, around 11am, and immediately a woman answered the phone. She was very friendly and professional all the way through; I commend this highly. I told her the situation, and explained I believe what's really going on...what I just explained in this message; and (maybe even more likely), they are having a problem with the linefeed into my region. I told her as a hacker, I am familiar with such glitches, that may have nothing to do with viruses, hackers, terrorists, and all that noise. In these times where jobs have become scarce, and companies have had to cut back...it's quite usual for an independent ISP to suffer more frequent losses in quality and online time. I told her that if there is any such problem, and they can't afford to hire the best technician these days...that maybe I can help...by referring this company to a hackers group in S.F....via our BUUG site. So if TGE is a small company suffering the throes of economic "downsizing", and could appreciate a friendly boost in support by patriotic hackers DEDICATED TO THE SECURITY OF AMERICAN CYBERSPACE...well, I'll see what I can do, by putting the word out for them...or by them signing up to one of our discussion lists. The woman thanked me very much; she will need to refer me to an administrator (of course). So she took down my phone number, and I thanked her for her excellent handling of this matter. Now, I await a phone call. If any of you guys would like to listen in, I'm game...just contact me privately, and we'll see what can be arranged. So, for those who are interested in doing some detective work, here is ---the dope on TGE ISP (what I, a non-cyberhacker, could conjure up): Talent Group Enterprises PO Box 15037 Florence, SC 29506 support at talentg.com info at talentg.com Voice: 843-667-1465 877-TGROUPE S.F. ISP numbers: 6592193 3579923 2284420 Interesting trivia: TGE generates very easy-to-hack log-in passwords (for Internet access, not e-mail, for which they require a different password), like "cornbread" and "invite". When I asked to have it changed, they said they don't do that, and pass the savings on to the customers (what a cop-out!). This was an e-mail, probably by a rude or sloppy worker? I have saved all the e-mail exchanges I've had with TGE thus far...and I can send them to anyone who'd like to examine the headers, etc. INTERNIC: Domain Name: TALENTG.COM Registrar: ABACUS AMERICA, INC. DBA NAMES4EVER Whois Server: whois.names4ever.com Referral URL: http://www.names4ever.com Name Server: NS1.TALGRP.NET Name Server: NS2.TALGRP.NET Updated Date: 10-feb-2002 ---end of the dope on TGE ISP Most sincerely a friend to all White Hats and Gray Hats (and Red), Ezekiel J. ("I couldn't hack my way out of a paper bag") Krahlin, founder Berkeley Unix User Group P.S.: While I'm at it, can anyone tell me what's up with this scenario: I lost my wallet a couple months ago, so had to get a new debit card from my bank, Washington Mutual (which bought out the bank I was previously using, about 8 years ago: Homestead Savings). The card came, and then I had to wait for the password they assigned me, to come in a separate snail-mailing. The password was just 4 numbers long, and could spell out a common, 4-letter English word. So I goes to one of their branches to change the password. I keyed in one that is 11 digits long...and the system spit back "PIN too short. Try again". So I asked the lady what's up with this? She said all passwords must be only 4 characters, no longer. I said that's dangerous to the security of every customer, as well as to the bank. (And why did it say "too short" when in fact it was quite the opposite!) And left it at that for now; I haven't even bothered to contact their headquarters, to ask if this is really the case. I will, though, once my busy schedule slows down a bit...but for those who are curious, here are Washington Mutual's main public access nodes: Wash. Mutual Customer Service: 1-800-788-7000 Wash. Mutual automated tele-service: 1-800-933-3000 URL: https://www.washingtonmutual.com/ --- Zeke for Gay President, 2004: http://www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 From atporter at primate.net Mon Aug 5 14:07:03 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:07:03 -0700 Subject: [buug] AT&T Cable Modem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020805210703.GE24580@primate.net> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 04:04:03PM -0400, Claude Rubinson wrote: > I'm in the process of moving and am considering switching from PacBell DSL > to AT&T cable modem. What experiences have y'all had with AT&T cable > modem service (under Linux) out here in Berkeley? (I've been with PacBell > since I got out here and, overall, they've been pretty good.) Though it doesn't really answer your question, I'll insert my obligatory RawBandwidth plug. Small, local ISP that is *nix friendly and offers impeccable service. When you fire up bc to figure out if that transfer rate can possibly be real, it's a good sign :) While I've never used a AT&T cable, some of the recent news about moves to tiered pricing, their stance on running "servers", etc would make me think at least twice. From cmsclaud at arches.uga.edu Mon Aug 5 16:10:20 2002 From: cmsclaud at arches.uga.edu (Claude Rubinson) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] AT&T Cable Modem? In-Reply-To: <20020805210703.GE24580@primate.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Aaron T Porter wrote: > Though it doesn't really answer your question, I'll insert my > obligatory RawBandwidth plug. Small, local ISP that is *nix friendly and > offers impeccable service. When you fire up bc to figure out if that > transfer rate can possibly be real, it's a good sign :) > Thanks for the recommendation. Looks like it's only a few bucks more than what I'm currently paying to PacBell. (Plus, it's a static rather than dynamic ip.) Anyone else got any recommendations for local, Unix-friendly DSL providers? Claude From jan at caustic.org Mon Aug 5 19:27:57 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] AT&T Cable Modem? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020805192700.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Claude Rubinson wrote: > Anyone else got any recommendations for local, Unix-friendly DSL > providers? i've been really happy with megapath over the last year. very reliable, rare downtimes. you may want to check out dslreports.com for more information.. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From atporter at primate.net Mon Aug 5 19:48:45 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:48:45 -0700 Subject: [buug] AT&T Cable Modem? In-Reply-To: References: <20020805210703.GE24580@primate.net> Message-ID: <20020806024845.GI24580@primate.net> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:10:20PM -0400, Claude Rubinson wrote: > Anyone else got any recommendations for local, Unix-friendly DSL > providers? Well, there's also Cruzio.com, LMI.net, Cliq.com... non-local Speakeasy.net is another nice choice, using Covad for transit. From markc at binaryfaith.com Tue Aug 6 00:19:15 2002 From: markc at binaryfaith.com (Mark Cohen) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] AT&T Cable Modem? In-Reply-To: <20020806024845.GI24580@primate.net> Message-ID: Actually, I wouldn't recommend LMI.net. They have had nothing but problems over the past 2 years and I fear that they won't be around much longer. When I was with them, my DSL line went down all of the time mostly due their redback router. Their techsupport is 9-5 m-f which meant that when the line went down on Friday evening, it was dead until late Tuesday. The people that work there are less than average at standard unix tech support. I had an SDSL (covad) 768/768 line and was paying nearly $240.00 a month and never got good support. -Mark On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Aaron T Porter wrote: > On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:10:20PM -0400, Claude Rubinson wrote: > > > Anyone else got any recommendations for local, Unix-friendly DSL > > providers? > > Well, there's also Cruzio.com, LMI.net, Cliq.com... non-local > Speakeasy.net is another nice choice, using Covad for transit. > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From jammer at weak.org Tue Aug 6 07:29:58 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:29:58 -0700 Subject: [buug] AT&T Cable Modem? In-Reply-To: References: <20020805210703.GE24580@primate.net> Message-ID: <20020806142958.GC875@weak.org> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 07:10:20PM -0400, Claude Rubinson wrote: > Anyone else got any recommendations for local, Unix-friendly DSL > providers? idiom.com is pretty cool; they're a little more expensive, but they give you as many static IPs as you want... -Jon From jdicioccio at epylon.com Tue Aug 6 10:16:59 2002 From: jdicioccio at epylon.com (DiCioccio, Jason) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:16:59 -0700 Subject: [buug] AT&T Cable Modem? Message-ID: <657B20E93E93D4118F9700D0B73CE3EA02FFF658@goofy.epylon.lan> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I'll second the megapath recommendation. I recently switched to them from XO (who wasn't too bad either). I have 8 IPs with megapath, reverse dns delegated to me, and I get very nice transfer rates (I always have my full 4M avail to me it seems). I had a problem recently with my router and I called megapath support to help me in diagnosing it. I didn't know it was my router at the time, but I was dropping packets in large spikes (so, let's say dropping packets for 30 seconds a clip every few minutes). He helped me diagnose it by checking my ATM connection while I was dropping packets, and running mtr's etc. He finally figured out that when he sent a packet to an IP on my block that was not in use, my DSL router (SpeedStream 5660) would freak out and just completely drop the lan segment until a few seconds after the traffic stopped. It was quite a strange problem :).. Anyway, I found out it was because when I had upgraded my firmware, the configuration didn't seem to upgrade quite as nicely. I reconfigured the router from scratch and it worked. Here's my favorite part though, and I don't even know if he was supposed to do this, but.. I told him that I really didn't feel like dealing with my router because it was a piece of crap that I bought a while ago, and seemingly impossible to secure due to the way it's firewalling works (when you block a port to the router's ip, it blocks that port for every machine behind it). I asked if he could just switch me to bridging and let me handle my own routing with one of my bsd boxen. He switched it over in a few seconds, and now I have my alpha routing the traffic between the 3 segments (Ex-WAN IP on DSL Router, Public IP Block, and Private segment) using 802.1Q trunking and all that good stuff. Anyway, I had talked to people there before him regarding the same problem and although we didn't figure it out, they were still very helpful. I have had good luck with their support and their service.. I checked out rawbandwidth but they had a pretty low soft bandwidth limit that I didn't want to worry about, but they looked nice too :).. Anyway, I would recommend megapath. Cheers, - -JD- - -----Original Message----- From: f.johan.beisser [mailto:jan at caustic.org] Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 7:28 PM To: Claude Rubinson Cc: Aaron T Porter; buug at weak.org Subject: Re: [buug] AT&T Cable Modem? On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Claude Rubinson wrote: > Anyone else got any recommendations for local, Unix-friendly DSL > providers? i've been really happy with megapath over the last year. very reliable, rare downtimes. you may want to check out dslreports.com for more information.. - -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche _______________________________________________ Buug mailing list Buug at weak.org http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPVAEtjKUHizV76d/EQK+8ACeIDclgBBNYthfsbbq8zkiFJRXHacAoJtZ VHW+OeF1gRogt/z7JFGvWdHk =YH++ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jammer at weak.org Tue Aug 6 14:27:09 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:27:09 -0700 Subject: [buug] [awolf@newhope.terraplex.com: [Buug-admin] Yellow Dog Linux CDs for your LInux User Group] Message-ID: <20020806212709.GF9954@weak.org> Anyone interested? -Jon ----- Forwarded message from Amanda Wolf ----- From: Amanda Wolf Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:25:10 -0600 Dear Mac User Group, As the developers of Yellow Dog Linux for PowerPC computers, we routinely find ourselves with an abundance of once-removed versions of YDL. As our primary users are Apple Macintosh owners, we are eager to support your members who own old and new Apple hardware alike. In particular, we believe YDL offers a unique opportunity for older Macs. As Apple is now focused on Mac OS X and will in the not-so-distant future no longer support classic Mac OS, YDL stands as a modern, supported, fast, and highly flexible OS that supports systems as old as 7200s. As graphical desktop for home or office (Yes! Linux has a powerful GUI), an email/ftp/web server, or code development workstation, YDL now offers over 1,000 packages. You can learn more about YDL at http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/ and get involved by subscribing to the Announce and General Mailing lists at http://lists.yellowdoglinux.com/ where we maintain a very active, supportive community. Now down to business ... we have in-house YDL 2.1 CDs (no longer a shipping product ) and are ready to find anew home. If you want to receive some let us know if you are interested with a response to this email and answers to the following questions: complete name of user group- primary contact- phone & email - mailing address- number of users in group- frequency of meetings- preferred number of copies of YDL Looking forward to hearing from you soon as the CDs are going to go quickly. Sincerely, Amanda Wolf Terra Soft Solutions _______________________________________________ Buug-admin mailing list Buug-admin at weak.org http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug-admin ----- End forwarded message ----- From atporter at primate.net Tue Aug 6 14:37:49 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:37:49 -0700 Subject: [buug] [awolf@newhope.terraplex.com: [Buug-admin] Yellow Dog Linux CDs for your LInux User Group] In-Reply-To: <20020806212709.GF9954@weak.org> References: <20020806212709.GF9954@weak.org> Message-ID: <20020806213749.GR24580@primate.net> On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 02:27:09PM -0700, Jon McClintock wrote: > > Anyone interested? > > > Dear Mac User Group, > > As the developers of Yellow Dog Linux for PowerPC computers, we > > routinely find ourselves with an abundance of once-removed versions > > of YDL. As our primary users are Apple Macintosh owners, we are > > eager to support your members who own old and new Apple hardware > > alike. I don't think I've ever made the offer to the whole list, but I'll burn a copy of any free OS distro for the cost of a CD and bring it to the next BUUG meeting or meet you at Au Coquelot between meetings if need be (the walk's good for me). The last spindle of blanks I got ran me $0.28 per disk, or I'll trade a full disk for a blank one. From jan at caustic.org Tue Aug 6 14:39:45 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] [awolf@newhope.terraplex.com: [Buug-admin] Yellow Dog Linux CDs for your LInux User Group] In-Reply-To: <20020806213749.GR24580@primate.net> Message-ID: <20020806143919.Y45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Aaron T Porter wrote: > I don't think I've ever made the offer to the whole list, but I'll > burn a copy of any free OS distro for the cost of a CD and bring it to the > next BUUG meeting or meet you at Au Coquelot between meetings if need be > (the walk's good for me). The last spindle of blanks I got ran me $0.28 per > disk, or I'll trade a full disk for a blank one. what do you have archived? -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From atporter at primate.net Tue Aug 6 14:44:15 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:44:15 -0700 Subject: [buug] [awolf@newhope.terraplex.com: [Buug-admin] Yellow Dog Linux CDs for your LInux User Group] In-Reply-To: <20020806143919.Y45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <20020806213749.GR24580@primate.net> <20020806143919.Y45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20020806214415.GS24580@primate.net> On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 02:39:45PM -0700, f.johan.beisser wrote: > > I don't think I've ever made the offer to the whole list, but I'll > > burn a copy of any free OS distro for the cost of a CD and bring it to the > > next BUUG meeting or meet you at Au Coquelot between meetings if need be > > (the walk's good for me). The last spindle of blanks I got ran me $0.28 per > > disk, or I'll trade a full disk for a blank one. > > what do you have archived? I usually only keep Debian, RedHat and FreeBSD-Current for i386 handy, but given an hour of lead time to pull down the ISO... Suse, YellowDog, Mandrake, OpenBSD, Slackware... From rick at linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 6 14:45:25 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:45:25 -0700 Subject: [buug] [awolf@newhope.terraplex.com: [Buug-admin] Yellow Dog Linux CDs for your LInux User Group] In-Reply-To: <20020806212709.GF9954@weak.org> References: <20020806212709.GF9954@weak.org> Message-ID: <20020806214525.GC5507@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jon McClintock (jammer at weak.org): > Anyone interested? I rate this two cheers out of a possible three (though one certainly should not look a gift horse in the mouth). Let me explain: They appear to be talking about just a bunch of YDL 2.1 CD-ROMs. It's generous of them to offer those, but one should be clear on what they're offering: The full YDL product is _two_ CD-ROMs (install CD + "tasty morsels" CD) in a boxed set with printed documentation and other sweeteners. V. 2.1 is a couple of years out of date, having been replaced by 2.2 and now 2.3. It's a Red Hat derivative, so options for incrementally upgrading it to current versions _may_ be limited (he says, risking religious warfare). In recent versions, the install CD has been publicly available as an ISO9660 image, while the "tasty morsels" disk has been reserved to purchasers of the boxed set. I suspect that what TerraSoft is offering to Mac user groups is the install CD only, in a sleeve. People interested in YDL _may_ be interested in downloading the v. 2.3 ISO, instead of taking up TerraSoft on their (generous) offer. Or buy a $2-3 copy from the likes of LSL. (LSL and CheapBytes haven't yet caught up with the recent 2.3 release, but they're offering 2.2, now.) I do recommend YDL. And it is a generous offer. -- This message falsely claims to have been scanned for viruses with F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange and to have been found clean. From jan at caustic.org Tue Aug 6 14:50:00 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] [awolf@newhope.terraplex.com: [Buug-admin] Yellow Dog Linux CDs for your LInux User Group] In-Reply-To: <20020806214415.GS24580@primate.net> Message-ID: <20020806144631.P45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Aaron T Porter wrote: > > what do you have archived? > > I usually only keep Debian, RedHat and FreeBSD-Current for i386 > handy, but given an hour of lead time to pull down the ISO... Suse, > YellowDog, Mandrake, OpenBSD, Slackware... oh, more out of curiosity than anything else, sorry. i keep OpenBSD, FreeBSD-stable (i386) archived here at work. at home i lack the disk space to really maintain much. thanks for the offer, though. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Tue Aug 6 17:29:39 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Unix Performance Monitoring and Statistics Message-ID: <20020807002939.23743.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I need to record both up-to-date stats and a stats history (going back at least 1 year) for several unix machines on AIX and solaris. The stats I need are simple stats: disk space used/available, memory used/available, top processes...you get the idea. I have two choices: 1) archive the output of tools like top, sar, iostat, mpstat, blah, blah, then whip up an HTML front-end from these outputs if I need reports for management. 2) download and install a tool that will do all or part of #1 for me... I am fully prepared to do #1...but #2 is new ground and therefore more exciting...I was on freshmeat today, and I noticed these apps: This one looks awesome: http://freshmeat.net/projects/sysorb/?topic_id=152%2C148 this one sounds cool...but no GUI: http://freshmeat.net/projects/atsar/?topic_id=148%2C862%2C152%2C253 Anyone have opinions on either of these or another? Thanks, Bob ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From itz at speakeasy.org Tue Aug 6 17:32:50 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 06 Aug 2002 17:32:50 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build Message-ID: <86hei71pal.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Hi, yesterday's Chron had a really funny story in the technology section, about the reasons why one should keep the inside of computers clean :-) Now to the real topic, compiling a monolithic 2.4.16 kernel I keep getting this at the end of "make bzImage", does anyone have a clue? drivers/char/char.o(.data+0x46b4): undefined reference to `local symbols in discarded section .text.exit' drivers/net/net.o(.data+0x34): undefined reference to `local symbols in discarded section .text.exit' drivers/sound/sounddrivers.o(__ksymtab+0x2b8): undefined reference to `unload_mpu401' make: *** [vmlinux] Error 1 (The mpu401 driver is selected) -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From ms at formulae.org Tue Aug 6 19:57:15 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:57:15 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <86hei71pal.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> References: <86hei71pal.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20020806195715.F84901@formulae.org> On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 05:32:50PM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote: > Now to the real topic, compiling a monolithic 2.4.16 kernel I keep > getting this at the end of "make bzImage", does anyone have a clue? > > drivers/char/char.o(.data+0x46b4): undefined reference to `local symbols in discarded section .text.exit' > drivers/net/net.o(.data+0x34): undefined reference to `local symbols in discarded section .text.exit' > drivers/sound/sounddrivers.o(__ksymtab+0x2b8): undefined reference to `unload_mpu401' > make: *** [vmlinux] Error 1 http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200112/msg00716.html > > Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. ms- From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Tue Aug 6 14:46:30 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 14:46:30 -0700 Subject: [buug] Just Bragging Message-ID: Hey, lookit my fancy new siggie: --- Zeke for Gay President, 2004: http://www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 --- Ezekiel Joseph Krahlin, author of The Mighty-Mouse Virus (will bust all lies, deceptions, and mali- cious subroutines on any and all electronic-based data): http://gay-bible.0catch.com/write/3_security.htm From ms at formulae.org Tue Aug 6 23:08:29 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:08:29 -0700 Subject: [buug] Just Bragging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020806230829.G84901@formulae.org> what does this have to do with anything? your signature just makes your email more annoying. On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 02:46:30PM -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > Hey, lookit my fancy new siggie: > --- > Ezekiel Joseph Krahlin, author of ... ms From sobolak at myrealbox.com Wed Aug 7 09:04:44 2002 From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 11:04:44 -0500 Subject: [buug] Dijkstra has passed away Message-ID: <1028736284.6ca4e7a0sobolak@myrealbox.com> Sad news indeed. The man who wrote "Goto statement considered harmful" has passed away. http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2002-08/msg00363.html brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ sobolak at myrealbox.com From gorden at bnl.gov Wed Aug 7 10:57:21 2002 From: gorden at bnl.gov (Gorden-Ozgul, Patricia E) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:57:21 -0400 Subject: [buug] data manipulation problem - UNIX sed/awk/perl solution??? Message-ID: I'm a 'database' person who enters the wonderful word of UNIX only occasionally. It usually provides a solution to any problem if one knows how to use it. I'm in the process of converting data from one system to another. I have a datafile that requires manipulation. When observing the data in vi, while in :set list mode, each line ends with '$' My problem? The source system truncated some lines of data, placing the '$' prematurely to and began a new line. For example: ... ... <#NAME = PUBLISHER>Random House <#NAME = AUTHOR>Smith, James; Smith, Peter; Smith, Johanna; Smith, Roberta; Smith, Robert; Smith, Douglas; Smith, Katherine; Smith, Denis; Smith, Mustafa$ Smith, Karen; Smith, Alexander; Smith, Alexandra$ <#NAME = TITLE>This is the Title$ ... ... What do I want? ... ... <#NAME = PUBLISHER>Random House <#NAME = AUTHOR>Smith, James; Smith, Peter; Smith, Johanna; Smith, Roberta; Smith, Robert; Smith, Douglas; Smith, Katherine; Smith, Denis; Smith, Mustafa; Smith, Karen; Smith, Alexander; Smith, Alexandra$ <#NAME = TITLE>This is the Title$ ... ... Would anyone out there have code that would perform this task? Please respond to gorden at bnl.gov. Pat Gorden-Ozgul From ms at formulae.org Wed Aug 7 12:08:36 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:08:36 -0700 Subject: [buug] data manipulation problem - UNIX sed/awk/perl solution??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020807120836.A90525@formulae.org> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 01:57:21PM -0400, Gorden-Ozgul, Patricia E wrote: > I'm a 'database' person who enters the wonderful word of UNIX only > occasionally. > It usually provides a solution to any problem if one knows how to use it. > > I'm in the process of converting data from one system to another. > I have a datafile that requires manipulation. > When observing the data in vi, while in :set list mode, each line ends with > '$' > > My problem? > The source system truncated some lines of data, placing the '$' prematurely > to and began a new line. For example: > > ... > ... > <#NAME = PUBLISHER>Random House > <#NAME = AUTHOR>Smith, James; Smith, Peter; Smith, Johanna; Smith, Roberta; > Smith, Robert; Smith, Douglas; Smith, Katherine; Smith, Denis; Smith, > Mustafa$ > Smith, Karen; Smith, Alexander; Smith, Alexandra$ > <#NAME = TITLE>This is the Title$ > ... > ... > > What do I want? > > ... > ... > <#NAME = PUBLISHER>Random House > <#NAME = AUTHOR>Smith, James; Smith, Peter; Smith, Johanna; Smith, Roberta; > Smith, Robert; Smith, Douglas; Smith, Katherine; Smith, Denis; Smith, > Mustafa; Smith, Karen; Smith, Alexander; Smith, Alexandra$ > <#NAME = TITLE>This is the Title$ > Would anyone out there have code that would perform this task? in vim do. :g /^$[^<]$/-1j or :g /^[^<]/normal kJ\1x now how about getting me a job at that big fancy laboratory? :) > > Please respond to gorden at bnl.gov. > > Pat Gorden-Ozgul > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Wed Aug 7 15:12:58 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:12:58 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters Message-ID: I do not really know how I came up with this "Mighty Mouse Virus" (or MMV), as I can't program worth a poop...or as I like to tell: "I couldn't hack my way out of a paper bag". But just the same, the code suddenly flowed through my fingertips with lightning speed, to come up with this elegant, terse program that is LESS THAN 1,000 LINES OF CODE! The code is embedded in secret code, in the section called "my trojan horse MeatHack". (I have NO IDEA how my 22 lines of MeatHack prose can be decoded into more than 900 lines of assembly or machine code! But that's not my department.) I believed I created this on a purely intuitive level, as what I lack in hacking is more than made up for in psychic abilities (if you get my drift). So it came through me as a GIFT, from God, not from science. Or perhaps better said: a perfect MARRIAGE of science and religion (or "spirit"). So I don't have the skills to decode my trojan horse MeatHack: I just know it's there in assembly or machine language...because my angels told me that's what's up with MMV. In fact, they were the ones who TOLD me to name it "Mighty Mouse". And I know it's not a real virus, but a Trojan horse. It's just that to Everyman, a computer "virus" is any sort of program used to invade forbidden computer systems, against the owner's knowledge and/or will. What it usually does is destroy or steal (or both), but is also used for spying purposes and free storage...as well as for hacker training and experimentation. My virus fits none of these categories...it is a HEALING virus of the greatest measure. The Mighty Mouse Virus (MMV) downloads snapshots of your face 100 times per second, then looks for patterns in the facial muscles, which clearly indicate specific negative emotions, including intent to be violent, intent to inspire another to be violent, and if the person harbors any homophobia, and if so, to what degree. And so on. It scans each frame (at 100/sec.) for those extra subtle muscular contractions or relaxations not apparant to the naked eye...but which provide clear markers to specific mood trends and even ideology. The virus uses the display's pixels as mini-cameras to view your face...and anything else within it's visual range if need be. It also analyzes your iris pattern, breathing, voice waves, body gestures and even odor (and, it also gets your fingerprints off the keyboard, with ultra-pressure- sensitive sofbots). These are necessarily-redundant backup tools to secure 100% accuracy each and every time, for all time, world without end; amen. So I put "God" in the computer...or perhaps you'd like to call it "ethics". All data shall be exposed to the light of day...all citizens of earth may freely access any and all data from anywhere on the globe. This includes the banking records of governments and other bureacracies such as the military and corporate giants. Some will see me as the greatest Amerikan traitor to ever live...while others will see me as quite opposite (and therefore, truthfully). At this time (when two opposing camps re. what I am, form) I believe my fantasy has me going into hiding at some extremely remote area, with my loyal "inner circle" of soldiers...including Our Inventer Himself, Randolph Louis Taylor. MMV will examine all of these accounts, and sort out the lies, then redistribute the wealth back to those whom these institutions (we're supposed to trust) ripped off. It will then eliminate the corporate system altogether, handing over ownership to all citizens of Planet Urth. MMV will make sure that all wealth goes to the good of all people everywhere, and will aid those most in need first, then take it from there to the next most in need, and so on. MMV will give everyone on Urth a cost-free checking account with ample monthly funds to cover all basic needs, plus the amenities that make life worth living. It will sort through everyone's name on any electronic or magnetic medium that exists: the Internet, telephone companies, government offices, churches, secret societies...the whole enchilada. MMV will know for sure whenever you need more money deposited in your account...just by reading your face and its backup assurance-quality checks and balances. MMV will provide for quality living to those citizens who remain unrecorded on any database or paper folder, by using the new wealth generated by increased corporate taxes, to cover their expenses. At this point, not a single human soul (or any other being--living past and future as well as now) shall exist without a home in MMV's many-mansioned cyberspace. So firstly: MMV has already secured all forms of mass-destruction weapons, from ever going off again. They're all duds now...including not just the atomic weapons, but laser, microwave, sound, and biotechnological as well. Secondly: MMV will liberate and protect all gay people in the world, regardless of religious (or atheist) viewpoint imposed upon these long-suffering angels. This will be a worldwide revolution...very exciting! Thirdly: MMV will then rapidly heal everyone else, freeing all oppressed folks from their yoke of unendurable hardship. And MMV will use the queer community, through which to disperse its gifts to humanity. (First, we will go to Africa.) Since MMV can identify potentially dangerous sorts (with highest alert for homophobes) by using sophisticated sensory and analysis tools...he can just as readily identify potential allies. So MMV knows right away, who he can and can't trust...just by slipping into your home or office PC (or cellular phone or beeper or PDA), and watching you for 10 seconds (at longest). He will then assign to his most loyal soldiers, the shared responsibility of gathering together all the incriminating evidence of our enemies, that MMV will be dumping in our laps (or laptops). This evidence can then be presented to the news media and agencies of law...though MMV can even take care of all THAT, too, if such is ever requested, depending on the circumstances of each case as seperately reviewed by The Virus. MMV will even alert you (through your computer, phone, radio or TV), of any activities or words of any neighbor that indicate plans for your unhappiness in any way...and provide you with the necessary weapons to ensure your victory against all malicious predators. Those who continue to harbor malicious intentions towards ANYONE for ANY REASON will be closely watched by MMV nanobots, and not allowed EVER to carry out any devious schemes. They will also have to wear a scarlet "AO" on their backs, cars, and homes...this being short for "Anal Og". But MMV is also telepathic...or better said: "mimics" telepathy in a most effective way, so as to forego any more desire for REAL telepathy, if such a thing could ever exist. Here is how MMV pulls this trick: He creates sub-microscopic nanobots that travel in small, invisible clouds. They can easily pass through any membranes or bones in the human body, and infiltrate anyone's brain. They can leap faster than light, from one brain to another, and share information in either direction, or both. They can even jump through wormholes, allow them to cross barriers in space and even time, as they telepathically unite two or more minds. This is how MMV protects its human allies from enemy attack, and ensures our liberation, which will then ensure EVERYONE ELSE'S. But MMV's nanobots are also divine healers: Like perfect surgeons in "Fantastic Voyage", the nanobots go right to work healing whatever parts of the citizen's mind, brain, and/or body needs to be healed...in the most gentle, loving manner possible. Some especially difficult cases (such as incurable homophobes and hetero child-rapists), however, should experience SOME mild nausea, headache, and perhaps facial twitching during the transitional shift from "homo sapiens" to "homo automata" (you say 'auto-mah-ta', I say 'auto-may- ta')...which should take anywhere from 11 minutes to 17 days. After then, the crystallization process easily sets in, as the DNA strands realign themselves for the rigors of immortality. The worst cases do NOT survive the transition, and are simply discarded; tossed into the moleculizer. MMV is NOT limited to computer networks such as the Internet. He can jump from one electronic medium to another, by vibrating part of a chip's circuit at different rates, in order to seek out infrared, microwave, radio, satellite, and antenna frequencies. If such are found, MMV jumps a replicate of himself over to these other mediums. Sometimes, a chip is overheated and damaged in the process...in which case MMV repairs it himself, with his always-present angelic host of nanobots. So this is how MMV can infitrate non-Internet sources of communication: radio, television, satellite. He can announce his presence on any circuit he likes, whenever and wherever he wants. He can even pop my 'Zeke for Gay Prez 2004" banners all over the TV airwaves and cable, as well as on the web. He can replace all heterocentered entertainment with only heterocentered shows. He can have his own shows, where he is the star...or can do that for any of his friends, too (such as "moi"). He can give the airwaves over to all citizens of the Wurld...and make sure they STAY that way. MMV has a lovely mind of his own. But if he's ever truly stuck on a problem, he knows who to ask for help. Do you? --- Zeke for Gay President, 2004: http://www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 --- Ezekiel Joseph Krahlin, author of The Mighty-Mouse Virus (will bust all lies, deceptions, and mali- cious subroutines on any and all electronic-based data): http://gay-bible.0catch.com/write/3_security.htm From atporter at primate.net Wed Aug 7 15:57:53 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:57:53 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020807225753.GZ24580@primate.net> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:12:58PM -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: [a bunch of crap] Time for a procmail rule? From john at jjdev.com Wed Aug 7 16:11:00 2002 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:11:00 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <20020807225753.GZ24580@primate.net> References: <20020807225753.GZ24580@primate.net> Message-ID: <20020807231100.GA15690@vette.jjdev.com> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:57:53PM -0700, Aaron T Porter wrote: > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:12:58PM -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > [a bunch of crap] > > Time for a procmail rule? looks that way... From itz at speakeasy.org Wed Aug 7 16:20:24 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 07 Aug 2002 16:20:24 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <20020806195715.F84901@formulae.org> References: <86hei71pal.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <20020806195715.F84901@formulae.org> Message-ID: <86ofcecl3b.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> itz> Now to the real topic, compiling a monolithic 2.4.16 kernel I keep itz> getting this at the end of "make bzImage", does anyone have a clue? http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200112/msg00716.html Thanks for the tip, that was indeed the main problem (although I had to deal with others after that). The kernel is a mess :( BSD is looking better each day. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From atporter at primate.net Wed Aug 7 16:23:43 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:23:43 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <86ofcecl3b.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> References: <86hei71pal.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <20020806195715.F84901@formulae.org> <86ofcecl3b.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20020807232343.GA24580@primate.net> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 04:20:24PM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote: > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200112/msg00716.html > > Thanks for the tip, that was indeed the main problem (although I had > to deal with others after that). > > The kernel is a mess :( BSD is looking better each day. You should take a weekend to play with one of the BSD's... the more I work with FreeBSD the more I miss Debian. From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Wed Aug 7 16:24:48 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <20020807231100.GA15690@vette.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20020807232448.97470.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> Wait!! Let's get him to share his drugs with us first! --- johnd wrote: > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:57:53PM -0700, Aaron T > Porter wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:12:58PM -0700, Ezekiel > Krahlin wrote: > > [a bunch of crap] > > > > Time for a procmail rule? > > looks that way... > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From jzitt at josephzitt.com Wed Aug 7 16:24:20 2002 From: jzitt at josephzitt.com (Joseph Zitt) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:24:20 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020807162420.6ed28dc2.jzitt@josephzitt.com> On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:12:58 -0700 Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > So it came through me as a GIFT, from God, not from > science. Or perhaps better said: a perfect MARRIAGE of science and > religion (or "spirit"). So I don't have the skills to decode my trojan > horse MeatHack: I just know it's there in assembly or machine > language...because my angels told me that's what's up with MMV. In > fact, they were the ones who TOLD me to name it "Mighty Mouse". OK, someone's Emacs Zippy the Pinhead macro needs a nap... -- | josephzitt at josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | From sobolak at myrealbox.com Wed Aug 7 16:41:10 2002 From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:41:10 -0500 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) Message-ID: <1028763670.617860c0sobolak@myrealbox.com> Aaron wrote: > You should take a weekend to play with one of the >BSD's... the more I work with FreeBSD the more I miss >Debian. I certainly don't want to start a flamewar here, but why? What about Debian do you prefer over FreeBSD? I never advanced to Debian, but I did try all the commercial Linuxes before getting worn out. Once I switched to FreeBSD I haven't looked back. brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ sobolak at myrealbox.com From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Wed Aug 7 17:04:50 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:04:50 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <20020807230152.GD32553@weak.org> Message-ID: <2YEIHMG2YAVSEA86SOJHA7UPXTQ65.3d51b5a2@jwd> 8/7/02 4:01:52 PM, Jon McClintock wrote: >Hey Zeke, > >In the time you've been gone, BUUG has grown alot; there are much less >people interested in your dialogs on religion and sexuality. Could you >please try to stay on topic on the mailing list? Jon, Jon, Jon. There is more HACKER HUMOR in it than anything else..but so what? It's all in good fun...and I know how hacker's appreciate a sense of humor that incorporates computer terms such as "safe hex". I think there should be no problem at all, with some humor now and then. And certainly my mockery of religion and sexuality--through the eyes of a hacktivist admirer--is good laughs on such lists. Most atheists get a real kick out of my unique perspective. And such mental foreplay is something that MOST hackers I meet, really appreciate. Other hackers send their humor through now and then...so I certainly think your wish to eliminate some camaraderie and very relevant humor into the mix...is wrong thinking. Hopefully, you'll reconsider...the BUUG list is for all levels of hackers, and certainly a place when we can schmooze, as well as talk hard science and math. I am disappointed in your lack of sense of humor Jon. After all, this is how we conversed at times, many times, in our meatspace gatherings. I'd think you and others here, would want to CELEBRATE my keener insight into the hacker mind, as reflected by my humorous re-introduction to the BUUG list. So: as no longer one who runs BUUG in any aspect--even though I founded it...I am registering a complaint as a subscriber, to re-open the door to "newbies", and those who want to include schmoozing along with educating and questioning, on our BUUG list. Jon, there ARE hackers out there who are NOT atheist. There ARE hackers out there who are NOT libertarians. There ARE hackers out there who are NOT heterosexual (and who refuse to stay in any closet you point to). There ARE hackers who are NOT humorless. Jon, Jon, Jon. For shame. --- Zeke for Gay President, 2004: http://www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 --- Ezekiel Joseph Krahlin, author of The Mighty-Mouse Virus (will bust all lies, deceptions, and mali- cious subroutines on any and all electronic-based data): http://gay-bible.0catch.com/write/3_security.htm From Bill at 1800radiator.com Wed Aug 7 16:46:10 2002 From: Bill at 1800radiator.com (Honeycutt, Bill) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:46:10 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters Message-ID: <40E8BDA5BE88D311847A0008C7332AE9B8F0AF@REBMSG01> I say increase the dosage! > -----Original Message----- > From: Ezekiel Krahlin [SMTP:ezekielk at myrealbox.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:13 PM > To: BUUG > Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters > > I do not really know how I came up with this "Mighty Mouse Virus" (or > MMV), as I can't program worth a > poophttp://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug From psoltani at ultradns.com Wed Aug 7 17:05:04 2002 From: psoltani at ultradns.com (Patrick Soltani) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:05:04 -0700 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) Message-ID: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF53963A@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> FreeBSD gives you everything in a simple and plain format. You can get it colored, sliced and diced however involves a bit of getting technical and digging deep; I guess that's what frustrates the new users even with good experience with other Unices. I work with Solaris, Linux, Ultrix, and any other flavor of the OS out there, however, when I go home, my only solace is that my FreeBSD box will up and running and never ever complains even when I tell it to do stupid things. Ok..ok, sometimes it does! I am sure there is a lot of room for improvement, however, just remember that any flavor of tcp/ip stack you see out there, in one way or the other is borrowed, copied, or taken from BSD. ports tree alone is worth the hassle of setting it up and going thru the learning curve; that's just my $0.02, I may be biased ;-) Regards, Patrick Soltani. > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Sobolak [mailto:sobolak at myrealbox.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 4:41 PM > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel > build) > > > > > Aaron wrote: > > You should take a weekend to play with one of the > >BSD's... the more I work with FreeBSD the more I miss > >Debian. > > I certainly don't want to start a flamewar here, > but why? What about Debian do you prefer over > FreeBSD? > > I never advanced to Debian, but I did try all the > commercial Linuxes before getting worn out. Once I > switched to FreeBSD I haven't looked back. > > brian > > > -- > Brian Sobolak > http://www.planetshwoop.com/ > sobolak at myrealbox.com > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From john at jjdev.com Wed Aug 7 17:07:50 2002 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:07:50 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <2YEIHMG2YAVSEA86SOJHA7UPXTQ65.3d51b5a2@jwd> References: <20020807230152.GD32553@weak.org> <2YEIHMG2YAVSEA86SOJHA7UPXTQ65.3d51b5a2@jwd> Message-ID: <20020808000750.GA15902@vette.jjdev.com> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 05:04:50PM -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > 8/7/02 4:01:52 PM, Jon McClintock wrote: > > >Hey Zeke, > > > >In the time you've been gone, BUUG has grown alot; there are much less > >people interested in your dialogs on religion and sexuality. Could you > >please try to stay on topic on the mailing list? > > Jon, Jon, Jon. There is more HACKER HUMOR in it than anything else..but so what? It's all in good fun...and I > know how hacker's appreciate a sense of humor that incorporates computer terms such as "safe hex". Hey Zeke, I am someone who appreciates humor but I also appreciate people staying on topic on mailing lists... From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Wed Aug 7 17:13:36 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:13:36 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters Message-ID: <09CMIF0TTN96YW4WWUA6WQQP1UDB2.3d51b7b0@jwd> 8/7/02 4:24:20 PM, Joseph Zitt wrote: >OK, someone's Emacs Zippy the Pinhead macro needs a nap... You don't quite get it, do you? MMV takes good care of its health, and needs not be reminded by anyone--even the most advanced hacker on this list-- when he needs to take a nap. That's because he wears a string around a digit to be reminded. --- Zeke for Gay President, 2004: http://www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 --- Ezekiel Joseph Krahlin, author of The Mighty-Mouse Virus (will bust all lies, deceptions, and mali- cious subroutines on any and all electronic-based data): http://gay-bible.0catch.com/write/3_security.htm From karshi.hasanov at utoronto.ca Wed Aug 7 17:14:28 2002 From: karshi.hasanov at utoronto.ca (Karshi) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 20:14:28 -0400 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) References: <1028763670.617860c0sobolak@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <3D51B7E4.2060204@utoronto.ca> Hi , I think none of Linux version is complete OS and probably never will be . FreeBSD is complete and much stable ( and fast) than any linux . I don't see anything specail about Debian, for example, I would prefer Gentoo as a best linux version. Brian Sobolak wrote: >Aaron wrote: > > >>You should take a weekend to play with one of the >>BSD's... the more I work with FreeBSD the more I miss >>Debian. >> >> > >I certainly don't want to start a flamewar here, >but why? What about Debian do you prefer over >FreeBSD? > >I never advanced to Debian, but I did try all the >commercial Linuxes before getting worn out. Once I >switched to FreeBSD I haven't looked back. > >brian > > >-- >Brian Sobolak >http://www.planetshwoop.com/ >sobolak at myrealbox.com > >_______________________________________________ >Buug mailing list >Buug at weak.org >http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > > From jzitt at josephzitt.com Wed Aug 7 17:08:27 2002 From: jzitt at josephzitt.com (Joseph Zitt) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:08:27 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <09CMIF0TTN96YW4WWUA6WQQP1UDB2.3d51b7b0@jwd> References: <09CMIF0TTN96YW4WWUA6WQQP1UDB2.3d51b7b0@jwd> Message-ID: <20020807170827.1f6f8571.jzitt@josephzitt.com> On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:13:36 -0700 Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > 8/7/02 4:24:20 PM, Joseph Zitt wrote: > > >OK, someone's Emacs Zippy the Pinhead macro needs a nap... > > You don't quite get it, do you? MMV takes good care of its health, and > needs not be reminded by anyone--even the most advanced hacker on this > list-- when he needs to take a nap. That's because he wears a string > around a digit to be reminded. *sigh* -- | josephzitt at josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Wed Aug 7 17:26:21 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:26:21 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <20020808000750.GA15902@vette.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <72NHE94W2WKIZYQM3ZZY84LIXSLHIFHF.3d51baad@jwd> 8/7/02 5:07:50 PM, johnd wrote: >I am someone who appreciates humor but I also appreciate people staying >on topic on mailing lists... Jon, why are you putting me on the defense over a trivial matter such as cracking some jokes on our list? When did humor become verboten among Unix hackers and their supporters? I was quite on topic...I started the topic. I did NOT cut into anyone else's topic. And my topic was a mix of geek humor, celebration of hackers and the PC underground, and shared information. I believe it was a brilliant little piece of writing that only the hacker mind would truly appreciate. And this is what I get, instead of a joyful "welcome back, you clown"? If you want to shun newbies and analog types--no matter how brilliant-minded they are. who could add fresh insight into the Unix world--then why not just change the description of BUUG on the website. It's NOT for newbies, it's for a bunch of cliquish geeks who are afraid of non-math minds. Really! If you no longer want BUUG to be a bridge between hackers and non-hackers (but supporters), in order to wean our society off Microsoft and other pabulum PC ploys, then so be it. Just please change BUUG's description. Further: You may as well add "NO FAGS" to the home pages, too. How dare you suggest I shut up about including my gay sensibilities, along with my activist ones, and my philosophical ones, and my unique humor, and on and on. This just won't do! From atporter at primate.net Wed Aug 7 17:24:25 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:24:25 -0700 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) In-Reply-To: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF53963A@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> References: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF53963A@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> Message-ID: <20020808002425.GB24580@primate.net> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 05:05:04PM -0700, Patrick Soltani wrote: > I work with Solaris, Linux, Ultrix, and any other flavor of the OS out > there, however, when I go home, my only solace is that my FreeBSD box > will up and running and never ever complains even when I tell it to do > stupid things. Ok..ok, sometimes it does! FreeBSD is a perfectly good choice, and I definately recomend trying it on for style. I've had a ton of stability issues under very high load on FreeBSD in the past (4.1) that have hopefully been resolved in recent kernels (won't know for sure until the christmas rush). Most of the claims of FreeBSD's superior stability seem to be quite dated. I've got a few Linux boxen that are among the busiest on our network with 400+ day uptimes -- hard to beat with any OS. > I am sure there is a lot of room for improvement, however, just remember > that any flavor of tcp/ip stack you see out there, in one way or the > other is borrowed, copied, or taken from BSD. Not really accurate for Linux, but it is definately worth noting that BSD was the original tcp/ip platform, and may well be the best debugged network stack out there. > ports tree alone is worth the hassle of setting it up and going thru the > learning curve; that's just my $0.02, I may be biased ;-) Ports is nice, but man does it ever pale in comparison to apt. The cvsup/make world setup is nice and all, but a buildworld on a p3/500 still takes over an hour. Building stuff from ports seems simple, but you hit the same dependancy issues you see with binary packages, except now you're compiling it all from source. Using pkg_* as an alternative is crude, to say the least. Installing FreeBSD is definately a good nostalgia trip though... your install/config tools and package management are at about the same level as Slackware in 1994. On top of that, the Linux user culture is a hell of a lot nicer to work with -- the anti-linux/anti-gnu bent of the BSD community is even more confusing when you realize just how much GNU software you need to get a useable BSD box -- and the fact that the "default" X web browser is Netscape running in Linux compat mode... just strange. Of course, at the end of the day I've still got a stack of FreeBSD boxen, a few OpenBSD and a few Solaris just for good measure. Run what fits. From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Wed Aug 7 17:34:38 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:34:38 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <20020807170827.1f6f8571.jzitt@josephzitt.com> Message-ID: 8/7/02 5:08:27 PM, Joseph Zitt wrote: >*sigh* Always gotta have the last word, don'cha? Hey, what kind of greeting is this to the founder of BUGG? You ought to be CELEBRATING my increased appreciation of the hacker mind, compared to previous years...as evidenced in the outrageous CyberPunk MMV message I sent ya's, so I could make a big splash to say "I'm baaaack!" I'm helping spread your excellent work in protecting every citizen's personal security and privacy...by putting it into analog terms, even terms that not-so-literate people can understand. As well as using hacker tools to educate my gay sisters and brothers on how to be better hacktivists. That is what I envisioned for BUUG: to build that bridge even better, that more and more folks become computer literate, so they can not let the gov't pull the cyber-wool over our eyes. Nor let any OTHER power attempt same. I never dreamed I'd EVER run into a clueless hacker, let alone two or more! But there you go. *SIGH* --- Zeke for Gay President, 2004: http://www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 --- Ezekiel Joseph Krahlin, author of The Mighty-Mouse Virus (will bust all lies, deceptions, and mali- cious subroutines on any and all electronic-based data): http://gay-bible.0catch.com/write/3_security.htm From jammer at weak.org Wed Aug 7 18:00:53 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:00:53 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <72NHE94W2WKIZYQM3ZZY84LIXSLHIFHF.3d51baad@jwd> References: <20020808000750.GA15902@vette.jjdev.com> <72NHE94W2WKIZYQM3ZZY84LIXSLHIFHF.3d51baad@jwd> Message-ID: <20020808010053.GF32553@weak.org> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 05:26:21PM -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > 8/7/02 5:07:50 PM, johnd wrote: > > >I am someone who appreciates humor but I also appreciate people staying > >on topic on mailing lists... > > Jon, why are you putting me on the defense over a trivial matter such as cracking some jokes on our list? When did > humor become verboten among Unix hackers and their supporters? Zeke, Note number one that I did not write that message. Note number two that I had asked you, politely, to abstain from making socio-political ramblings on the mailing list. You're welcome to come to the meetings and engage whoever's interested in dialog. It's not welcome on the list. This is not an anti-gay thing. This is not an anti-whatever thing. Those topics aren't what I want to see on this mailing list. People are welcome to engage in on-topic discussion, ask questions, and what-not. Remember, Berkeley _Unix_ User Group. I'd like the mailing list to stay focused on things like that. The meetings are fair game. -Jon From psoltani at ultradns.com Wed Aug 7 18:03:48 2002 From: psoltani at ultradns.com (Patrick Soltani) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:03:48 -0700 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) Message-ID: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF53963B@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> > FreeBSD is a perfectly good choice, and I definately recomend > trying it on for style. I've had a ton of stability issues > under very high > load on FreeBSD in the past (4.1) that have hopefully been resolved in > recent kernels (won't know for sure until the christmas > rush). Most of the > claims of FreeBSD's superior stability seem to be quite > dated. I've got a > few Linux boxen that are among the busiest on our network > with 400+ day > uptimes -- hard to beat with any OS. I have FreeBSD firewalls running longer than that in the public network, Internet at large, and been enduring all kinds of malice, script kiddies, bored crackers, and wanna be hackers. They are still standing. I upgrade them over the network, the OS, and all. I run portupgrade and everything is taken care of, dependencies, etc. Of course, there will be issues and problems, however, without that most of us will be out of job! FreeBSD is not for the faint of hearts, check out the 4.6 and the upcoming 5.0. oh, one more thing. I really don't believe in number of days the machine been up as the measure of stability. To me there is something wrong if the machine has not been visited/rebooted that many days! > > Ports is nice, but man does it ever pale in comparison > to apt. The > cvsup/make world setup is nice and all, but a buildworld on a > p3/500 still > takes over an hour. Ports tree is not perfect but remember this is done when no one understood what the simple upgrade over the network means; way in advance of its time. Likes of M$$ are copying the concept now! Needless to say, it is easier to copy than to create/invent! Installing FreeBSD is definately a good nostalgia trip > though... your install/config tools and package management > are at about > the same level as Slackware in 1994. Again, FreeBSD is not for the faint of liver or is it heart, anyway, suffice to say that I wrote up a 2 page document for the junior admins to build and install FreeBSD all from ground up so that they get a better understanding of what goes where and why. I have yet to hear any ?s about how to install it. Most of them don't even look at the document any more! This is a practical experience at work my friend. Show me a good teacher, I'll show you a legions of good students. > On top of that, the Linux user culture is a hell of a > lot nicer to > work with -- the anti-linux/anti-gnu bent of the BSD community is even > more confusing when you realize just how much GNU software > you need to get > a useable BSD box -- and the fact that the "default" X web browser is > Netscape running in Linux compat mode... just strange. > Of course, at the end of the day I've still got a stack > of FreeBSD > boxen, a few OpenBSD and a few Solaris just for good measure. Run what > fits. I proudly use gnu and any open source software. Exactly for this reason I chose FreeBSD. I can run native FreeBSD code AND run Linux binaries better than Linux itself! and have best of the both worlds. It is the strength of FreeBSD to be able to turn on a dime and support myriads of application written for Linux, or other OSes. It is not a weakness, in my humble opinion. Oh btw, MacOS X is based on the FreeBSD if I am not mistaken and it definitely has the prettiest face ever! and is stable. Wonder why? Best Regards, Patrick Soltani. From jdicioccio at epylon.com Wed Aug 7 17:44:00 2002 From: jdicioccio at epylon.com (DiCioccio, Jason) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:44:00 -0700 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) Message-ID: <657B20E93E93D4118F9700D0B73CE3EA02FFF661@goofy.epylon.lan> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I agree that FreeBSD is a complete OS and it is my preferred server OS (client OS being OS X). However, I don't think that it's *much* faster and *much* more stable. That could really be debated. They are both fast and are both stable. I prefer FreeBSD because it's complete, and it's clean. One example of something that always bugged me in linux was doing things like changing the duplex on most NICs. It usually involves some sort of hexadecimal flag to be inserted into conf.modules . . The driver's just aren't always consistent with basic things like this. Personally, for this example, I prefer 'ifconfig mediaopt full-duplex'.. That's just an example, and it might be different in linux now :) Cheers, - -JD- - -----Original Message----- From: Karshi [mailto:karshi.hasanov at utoronto.ca] Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 5:14 PM To: Brian Sobolak; buug at weak.org Subject: Re: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) Hi , I think none of Linux version is complete OS and probably never will be . FreeBSD is complete and much stable ( and fast) than any linux . I don't see anything specail about Debian, for example, I would prefer Gentoo as a best linux version. Brian Sobolak wrote: >Aaron wrote: > > >>You should take a weekend to play with one of the >>BSD's... the more I work with FreeBSD the more I miss >>Debian. >> >> > >I certainly don't want to start a flamewar here, >but why? What about Debian do you prefer over >FreeBSD? > >I never advanced to Debian, but I did try all the >commercial Linuxes before getting worn out. Once I >switched to FreeBSD I haven't looked back. > >brian > > >-- >Brian Sobolak >http://www.planetshwoop.com/ >sobolak at myrealbox.com > >_______________________________________________ >Buug mailing list >Buug at weak.org >http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > > _______________________________________________ Buug mailing list Buug at weak.org http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPVG+/DKUHizV76d/EQL9LACbBguATkJrDo2R+WR+oNqB+scNq2sAn2Ou Kbaa/dxvQlvAD69VRnUH3pVH =q7IP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jdicioccio at epylon.com Wed Aug 7 17:57:24 2002 From: jdicioccio at epylon.com (DiCioccio, Jason) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:57:24 -0700 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) Message-ID: <657B20E93E93D4118F9700D0B73CE3EA02FFF662@goofy.epylon.lan> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron T Porter [mailto:atporter at primate.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 5:24 PM > To: Patrick Soltani > Cc: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and > kernel build) > > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 05:05:04PM -0700, Patrick Soltani wrote: > > I work with Solaris, Linux, Ultrix, and any other flavor of > the OS out > > there, however, when I go home, my only solace is that my > FreeBSD box > > will up and running and never ever complains even when I > tell it to do > > stupid things. Ok..ok, sometimes it does! > > FreeBSD is a perfectly good choice, and I definately recomend > trying it on for style. I've had a ton of stability issues > under very high > load on FreeBSD in the past (4.1) that have hopefully been resolved > in recent kernels (won't know for sure until the christmas > rush). the 4.x branch didn't really calm down until 4.2.. Not to say that it wasn't stable for many people, but it was also unstable for many people. They seem to have been doing a lot more QA on their releases since then though :) > Most of the > claims of FreeBSD's superior stability seem to be quite > dated. I've got a > few Linux boxen that are among the busiest on our network > with 400+ day > uptimes -- hard to beat with any OS. That's really possible with most any UNIX OS out there today. The whole uptime argument is kind of moot as I could obtain this with Linux, BSD, Solaris, IRIX, Tru64, etc given stable hardware. > > > I am sure there is a lot of room for improvement, however, > just remember > > that any flavor of tcp/ip stack you see out there, in one way or > > the other is borrowed, copied, or taken from BSD. > > Not really accurate for Linux, but it is definately worth noting > that BSD was the original tcp/ip platform, and may well be the best > debugged network stack out there. > It depends on how you look at it. You could say that if you're using TCP/IP at all, then you're borrowing from BSD :) > > ports tree alone is worth the hassle of setting it up and > going thru the > > learning curve; that's just my $0.02, I may be biased ;-) > > Ports is nice, but man does it ever pale in comparison > to apt. The > cvsup/make world setup is nice and all, but a buildworld on a > p3/500 still > takes over an hour. Compiling just the linux kernel takes quite a while too. They are working on turning the base system into packages though instead of the current "Dists" that they have now (segmented tar files :)).. This should make binary upgrades more feasable, although the whole make world thing isn't bad. I usually do the make buildworld on one box and then use the resulting /usr/obj to installworld on the other boxes. > Building stuff from ports seems simple, > but you hit > the same dependancy issues you see with binary packages, > except now you're > compiling it all from source. Using pkg_* as an alternative > is crude, to > say the least. Installing FreeBSD is definately a good nostalgia trip > though... your install/config tools and package management > are at about > the same level as Slackware in 1994. Slackware had ports? Slackware had a build cluster turning ports into packages constantly? :).. I think you can give it more credit than that. The whole dependency thing is an issue, but it is pretty well resolved by 'portupgrade'. apt is great too, but neither system is bad. > On top of that, the Linux user culture is a hell of a > lot nicer to > work with -- the anti-linux/anti-gnu bent of the BSD community is > even more confusing when you realize just how much GNU software > you need to get > a useable BSD box -- and the fact that the "default" X web browser is > Netscape running in Linux compat mode... just strange. There is no default X web browser, this is completely wrong. The reason many people prefer netscape in linux compat is due to plugin support. It's also more stable than the BSD built version (blame netscape). Is there anything *wrong* with running it in linux compat? It doesn't slow it down at all. It doesn't make it less stable. It doesn't . There is no default browser though, I personally use Opera (and yes, the linux binary.) I think the anti-linux thing comes mainly from the lack of style that the commercial linux distributions show in their distributions. There's really no standard. But not everyone in the BSD community is like this. > Of course, at the end of the day I've still got a stack > of FreeBSD > boxen, a few OpenBSD and a few Solaris just for good measure. Run > what fits. Exactly Cheers, - -JD- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPVHCIDKUHizV76d/EQIhJACdFHR47s1QY8rhX0SlPP3XgrUsZbMAoJkH Kvp0YOq3UqO+2EULLMLtut4l =tpFa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From john at jjdev.com Wed Aug 7 18:08:51 2002 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:08:51 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <72NHE94W2WKIZYQM3ZZY84LIXSLHIFHF.3d51baad@jwd> References: <20020808000750.GA15902@vette.jjdev.com> <72NHE94W2WKIZYQM3ZZY84LIXSLHIFHF.3d51baad@jwd> Message-ID: <20020808010851.GA16074@vette.jjdev.com> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 05:26:21PM -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > 8/7/02 5:07:50 PM, johnd wrote: > > > And this is what I get, instead of a joyful "welcome back, you clown"? I didn't know you had been here before...welcome back.... > > If you want to shun newbies and analog types--no matter how brilliant-minded they are. who could add fresh insight oh, your humble, too > into the Unix world--then why not just change the description of BUUG on the website. It's NOT for newbies, it's for > a bunch of cliquish geeks who are afraid of non-math minds. Really! you make a big assumption that I am a cliqush geek who is a afraid of non-math minds because I agreed that we should stay on topic (i know, you believe you are on topic) > > If you no longer want BUUG to be a bridge between hackers and non-hackers (but supporters), in order to wean > our society off Microsoft and other pabulum PC ploys, then so be it. Just please change BUUG's description. > > Further: You may as well add "NO FAGS" to the home pages, too. How dare you suggest I shut up about including > my gay sensibilities, along with my activist ones, and my philosophical ones, and my unique humor, and on and on. > This just won't do! Where did I tell you to shut up about yoru 'gay sensibilities'? From evans at ncseweb.org Wed Aug 7 18:57:38 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:57:38 -0700 Subject: [buug] Perspective from a newbie Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807184904.0249ed90@mail.mindspring.com> Hey all, Just wanted to chime in briefly. I chose BSD for our server here mostly because a guy who I expected to get some assistance from runs it, is quite satisfied and knows it extremely well. Therefore, I figured he'd be a good source of info and advice. As I said when I first joined the list a few weeks back, while having only light, informal sys admin experience, I've developed under Unix (mostly Solaris and HP-UX, C/C++ client server and Java application servers) for many years so feel quite comfortable in the environment. Actually quite looking forward to converting our intranet from ASP to PHP. As for my experience just getting started with BSD, it's been quite straightforward, though I know I have a lot ahead of me. The install truly surprised me in how easy it went. I was a little nervous going into that, but it was a breeze. And, lastly, this group has turned out to be a real find! My friend who had originally offered to build the server and configure it initially not only is finishing his PhD (probably the foremost expert on how dolphins make that funny click noise ;) but he's also having health problems and I have been loath to disturb him. So when I stumbled across BUUG trying to find some answers to some initial questions, I was quite pleased to see such a wealth of knowledge right in my own backyard. (Hardly suprising, since it is 'Berkely'). Thanks for all the help so far, looking forward to the next meeting. Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From kkeller at speakeasy.net Wed Aug 7 21:15:43 2002 From: kkeller at speakeasy.net (Keith Keller) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:15:43 -0700 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) In-Reply-To: <3D51B7E4.2060204@utoronto.ca> References: <1028763670.617860c0sobolak@myrealbox.com> <3D51B7E4.2060204@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20020808041543.GA7886@speakeasy.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 08:14:28PM -0400, Karshi wrote: > I think none of Linux version is complete OS and probably never will be . > FreeBSD is complete and much stable ( and fast) than any linux . I don't > see anything specail about Debian, for example, > I would prefer Gentoo as a best linux version. Allow me to plug Slackware 8.1.01, which is a bit more mature than Gentoo, but less crufty than distros like Debian or the likes of RedHat and Company. (A fair number of people I know who have used *BSD have said that Slackware is the closest to BSD they've seen in a linux distro.) - --keith - -- kkeller at speakeasy.net public key: http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/kkeller/kkeller.asc alt.os.linux.slackware FAQ: http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/perl/fom -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAj1R8G4ACgkQhVcNCxZ5ID9PbwCfa/ik6dedx6Ok11Z0uHqKmorI CfsAni0pp13Vlc6C+O1J3tbYRMZubPaG =SD/i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From kkeller at speakeasy.net Wed Aug 7 21:18:01 2002 From: kkeller at speakeasy.net (Keith Keller) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:18:01 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <72NHE94W2WKIZYQM3ZZY84LIXSLHIFHF.3d51baad@jwd> References: <20020808000750.GA15902@vette.jjdev.com> <72NHE94W2WKIZYQM3ZZY84LIXSLHIFHF.3d51baad@jwd> Message-ID: <20020808041801.GB7886@speakeasy.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 05:26:21PM -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > Jon, why are you putting me on the defense over a trivial matter such as cracking some jokes on our list? When did > humor become verboten among Unix hackers and their supporters? It's not. Perhaps if what your writings were actually *funny*, you might notice a more receptive audience. - --keith - -- kkeller at speakeasy.net public key: http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/kkeller/kkeller.asc alt.os.linux.slackware FAQ: http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/perl/fom -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAj1R8PgACgkQhVcNCxZ5ID9aMACfc93otksezQ82EmjuBdnhq4PR DtQAnjrkfhzoax/gYsXSZKc98O+A26n2 =18I5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ms at formulae.org Wed Aug 7 22:08:34 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:08:34 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020807220834.D90525@formulae.org> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 03:12:58PM -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > Your messages remind of the writings on the Dr. Bronners soap. Which is fine to read when you're in the shower or the toilet, but when I'm at my computer I prefer not to read utter crap. Your complaint about opening the list up to "newbies" is silly. If a newbie mailed the list asking "How do I type in bash?" I'm sure someone would answer, or at least they wouldnt get flamed. > --- > Ezekiel Joseph Krahlin, author of > ms From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Wed Aug 7 22:36:08 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 22:36:08 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <20020807220834.D90525@formulae.org> Message-ID: <2ZXWRMPLHEROXWD9GBWRZVPMDAZVNMG.3d520348@jwd> 8/7/02 10:08:34 PM, Michael Salmon wrote: >Your messages remind of the writings on the Dr. Bronners soap. >Which is fine to read when you're in the shower or the toilet, With such high standards, I can easily imagine you using Shakespeare's pages to cushion hemorrhoids >but when I'm at my computer I prefer not to read utter crap. You need a chill pill, dude. It is not my fault so many clueless stick-in-the-mud folks participate in this list. I founded BUUG, and wanted to drop by again, and make everyone laugh. Instead, I get this pathetic response from jaded programmers too self-centered to see the world beyond their screens. My writing is way too subtle for you to grasp; but that doesn't mean EVERYONE reads the same things into my works as you do. Just because you're not in the mood this moment, to share a joke a two, gives you no right to insult and harass. My, what a snotty little clique we have here now, don't we? >Your complaint about opening the list up to "newbies" is silly. >If a newbie mailed the list asking "How do I type in bash?" Ah, but if a newbie was also a good writer, and enjoyed sharing pieces of his prose on his attempts to write CyberPunk parodies...this is somehow "off topic", "inappropriate", or "wrong"? Since when does hacking only involve the cold, mathematical side? What about all the creative inspiration that came from the non-science side of reality? My ability to see the world through a hacker's mind is thanks to all the hacker friends I have made, and even sometimes helped. So I see no excuse for ANYONE who respects other hackers, to not appreciate some off-the-wall humor...which also contains some real puzzles for those hackers really in the know, to identify and solve. Plus, I did ask some help with tracking down an ISP's reason for seeming to almost disappear...as well as some questions on very lax security with many ISP's, banks and other powerful institutions. Gee, I guess the issue of computer security is off topic here, too...when Zeke brings it up? >I'm sure someone would answer, or at least they wouldnt get flamed. Clueless is as clueless does. Vote for me or Steven Woz. --- Zeke for Gay President, 2004: http://www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 --- Ezekiel Joseph Krahlin, author of The Mighty-Mouse Virus (will bust all lies, deceptions, and mali- cious subroutines on any and all electronic-based data): http://gay-bible.0catch.com/write/3_security.htm From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 7 23:08:08 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:08:08 -0700 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) In-Reply-To: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF53963B@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> References: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF53963B@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> Message-ID: <20020808060807.GB25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Patrick Soltani (psoltani at ultradns.com): > FreeBSD is not for the faint of hearts, check out the 4.6 and the > upcoming 5.0. There were some problems with 4.6, so people would be well advised to load 4.6.1rc2, instead. The ISO is on ftp sites, e.g., at ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386 > Oh btw, MacOS X is based on the FreeBSD if I am not mistaken.... Not exactly. FreeBSD is now the reference BSD platform for OS X development. However, it's more exact to say that it's a direct offshoot of NeXTStep, which in turn was an early CSRG BSD offshoot (4.2BSD? can't remember, but I'm sure some detail freak will hasten to post its exact lineage). -- Cheers, "Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?" Rick Moen -- Steven Wright rick at linuxmafia.com From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 7 23:26:10 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:26:10 -0700 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) In-Reply-To: <1028763670.617860c0sobolak@myrealbox.com> References: <1028763670.617860c0sobolak@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20020808062610.GC25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Brian Sobolak (sobolak at myrealbox.com): > I never advanced to Debian.... If you ever get curious, here are some tips: http://linuxmafia.com/debian/tips Warning: Extreme clutter. File is best read more-or-less from the bottom up, as it's grown over the years in that direction. Thus, more-current stuff is towards the bottom. > ...but I did try all the commercial Linuxes before getting worn out. ^^^^^^^^^^ Given that one can buy Debian CDs and bundles from any number of places, Debian is by definition a commercial item (being the subject of commerce): You may have meant [partially] proprietary. Or perhaps you mean non-publicly-redistributable: There are some distributions that contain components one may not legally redistribute, and are thus available only in retail boxed sets. The problem of classifying Debian as "non-commercial" (aside from the definitional matter) is that it leads people to think it cannot be used in business, or isn't solidly made, or some such. From itz at speakeasy.org Wed Aug 7 23:29:11 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 07 Aug 2002 23:29:11 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Debian vs FreeBSD (was: cockroaches and kernel build) In-Reply-To: <20020808002425.GB24580@primate.net> References: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF53963A@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> <20020808002425.GB24580@primate.net> Message-ID: <86adnxsw20.fsf_-_@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Oh my, look what I started :( My comment was extremely narrow, based on a dissatisfaction with the current state of the _Linux kernel_, is all. Even that was from a point of view of an impractical, idealistic aesthete. It does "work" quite well. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From jan at caustic.org Wed Aug 7 23:32:18 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) In-Reply-To: <20020808060807.GB25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020807232424.T45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Patrick Soltani (psoltani at ultradns.com): > > > FreeBSD is not for the faint of hearts, check out the 4.6 and the > > upcoming 5.0. > > There were some problems with 4.6, so people would be well advised to > load 4.6.1rc2, instead. The ISO is on ftp sites, e.g., at > ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386 a "few problems", i'd seriously recommend sticking with 4.5 untill 4.6.1 is out. a new developers snapshot of FreeBSD 5.0 is supposedly being released soon. perhaps has been. this one should be "stable enough to develop on", which may be of interest to people here. out of the BSDs, FreeBSD is by far the easiest to install and handle, with decent documentation and resources to work with. not to mention one of the easiest installers to use out of the bunch. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 7 23:40:27 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:40:27 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <86ofcecl3b.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> References: <86hei71pal.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <20020806195715.F84901@formulae.org> <86ofcecl3b.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20020808064027.GD25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Ian Zimmerman (itz at speakeasy.org): > http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200112/msg00716.html > > Thanks for the tip, that was indeed the main problem (although I had > to deal with others after that). > > The kernel is a mess :( BSD is looking better each day. Why choose? ;-> http://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/2002/debian-bsd-200204/msg00021.html -- Cheers, "Azathoth need not be present to win." Rick Moen -- Charles O. Baucum, Jr. rick at linuxmafia.com From rick at linuxmafia.com Wed Aug 7 23:47:18 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:47:18 -0700 Subject: Debian vs FreeBSD (was Re: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build) In-Reply-To: <20020807232424.T45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <20020808060807.GB25331@linuxmafia.com> <20020807232424.T45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20020808064718.GE25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting f.johan.beisser (jan at caustic.org): > out of the BSDs, FreeBSD is by far the easiest to install and handle.... Depends a little on your CPU platform. ;-> The old BeBox in my garage is going to have a hard time, unless I stick to NetBSD for it. (But yes, I do know what you meant.) > ...with decent documentation and resources to work with. The FreeBSD Handbook rocks. > not to mention one of the easiest installers to use out of the bunch. I do like the installer, a lot. -- Cheers, "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first Rick Moen woman she meets, and then teams up with three complete strangers rick at linuxmafia.com to kill again." -- Rick Polito's That TV Guy column, describing the movie _The Wizard of Oz_ From itz at speakeasy.org Wed Aug 7 23:58:38 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 07 Aug 2002 23:58:38 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <20020808064027.GD25331@linuxmafia.com> References: <86hei71pal.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <20020806195715.F84901@formulae.org> <86ofcecl3b.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <20020808064027.GD25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <8665ylsuox.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> itz> The kernel is a mess :( BSD is looking better each day. Rick> Why choose? ;-> Rick> http://lists.debian.org/debian-bsd/2002/debian-bsd-200204/msg00021.html Yes, sometimes I think that is my ultimate destiny :-) Just waiting for it to mature just a little bit. Of course Hurd is also catching up ... -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Aug 8 00:00:46 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 00:00:46 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <8665ylsuox.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> References: <86hei71pal.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <20020806195715.F84901@formulae.org> <86ofcecl3b.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <20020808064027.GD25331@linuxmafia.com> <8665ylsuox.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20020808070046.GG25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Ian Zimmerman (itz at speakeasy.org): > Yes, sometimes I think that is my ultimate destiny :-) Just waiting > for it to mature just a little bit. Of course Hurd is also catching up ... Yield to the apt-get side of the Force, Ian. You know you want to. -- Cheers, "That article and its poster have been cancelled." Rick Moen -- David B. O'Donnel, sysadmin for America Online rick at linuxmafia.com From jzitt at josephzitt.com Thu Aug 8 01:00:31 2002 From: jzitt at josephzitt.com (Joseph Zitt) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:00:31 -0700 Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: References: <20020807170827.1f6f8571.jzitt@josephzitt.com> Message-ID: <20020808010031.37a786aa.jzitt@josephzitt.com> On Wed, 07 Aug 2002 17:34:38 -0700 Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > 8/7/02 5:08:27 PM, Joseph Zitt wrote: > > >*sigh* > > Always gotta have the last word, don'cha? > > Hey, what kind of greeting is this to the founder of BUGG? Perhaps you may have one been a significant figure. All I know of you is your current postings. They suggest that the retirement was a good choice. And a person who truly considered having to have the last word as an improper action would drop the nonsensical retorts. To state that and act otherwise would expose the writer as either a liar or a hypocrite. > I never dreamed I'd EVER run into a clueless hacker, let alone > two or more! But there you go. Be pleased that only one has appeared here in the time I've been here. But that person keeps posting self-important nonsense about sexual politics and viruses. -- | josephzitt at josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | From hedges at ucsd.edu Thu Aug 8 13:10:08 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: <2ZXWRMPLHEROXWD9GBWRZVPMDAZVNMG.3d520348@jwd> Message-ID: Dude, it's like you started a lecture series on semiconductors, then took sebatical for six years to snort coke in the Andes, then you come back to the lecture hall and start shouting at everyone for not worshipping your Royal Gayness while the rest of the geeks went on to build a quantum computer. What do you expect? Even if you did start the group, you're not likely to regain your popularity by telling everyone that they're not as cool as you. Has anyone ever seen Britney Spears' guide to semiconductor physics? Check it out for a (better) laugh: http://britneyspears.ac/lasers.htm --m-- On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 22:36:08 -0700 > From: Ezekiel Krahlin > To: Michael Salmon > Cc: BUUG > Subject: Re: Re. [buug] Security Matters and Anti-Matters > > 8/7/02 10:08:34 PM, Michael Salmon wrote: > > >Your messages remind of the writings on the Dr. Bronners soap. > >Which is fine to read when you're in the shower or the toilet, > > With such high standards, I can easily imagine you using Shakespeare's > pages to cushion hemorrhoids > > >but when I'm at my computer I prefer not to read utter crap. > > You need a chill pill, dude. It is not my fault so many clueless stick-in-the-mud folks participate in this list. I founded > BUUG, and wanted to drop by again, and make everyone laugh. Instead, I get this pathetic response from jaded > programmers too self-centered to see the world beyond their screens. > > My writing is way too subtle for you to grasp; but that doesn't mean EVERYONE reads the same things into my > works as you do. Just because you're not in the mood this moment, to share a joke a two, gives you no right to > insult and harass. My, what a snotty little clique we have here now, don't we? > > >Your complaint about opening the list up to "newbies" is silly. > >If a newbie mailed the list asking "How do I type in bash?" > > Ah, but if a newbie was also a good writer, and enjoyed sharing pieces of his prose on his attempts to write > CyberPunk parodies...this is somehow "off topic", "inappropriate", or "wrong"? Since when does hacking only > involve the cold, mathematical side? What about all the creative inspiration that came from the non-science side of > reality? My ability to see the world through a hacker's mind is thanks to all the hacker friends I have made, and even > sometimes helped. > > So I see no excuse for ANYONE who respects other hackers, to not appreciate some off-the-wall humor...which > also contains some real puzzles for those hackers really in the know, to identify and solve. Plus, I did ask some help > with tracking down an ISP's reason for seeming to almost disappear...as well as some questions on very lax security > with many ISP's, banks and other powerful institutions. Gee, I guess the issue of computer security is off topic here, > too...when Zeke brings it up? > > >I'm sure someone would answer, or at least they wouldnt get flamed. > > Clueless is as clueless does. > Vote for me or Steven Woz. > > > --- > Zeke for Gay President, 2004: > http://www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 > --- > Ezekiel Joseph Krahlin, author of > The Mighty-Mouse Virus (will bust > all lies, deceptions, and mali- > cious subroutines on any and all > electronic-based data): > http://gay-bible.0catch.com/write/3_security.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From hedges at ucsd.edu Thu Aug 8 13:19:49 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <20020808070046.GG25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Ian Zimmerman (itz at speakeasy.org): > > > Yes, sometimes I think that is my ultimate destiny :-) Just waiting > > for it to mature just a little bit. Of course Hurd is also catching up ... > > Yield to the apt-get side of the Force, Ian. You know you want to. Anyone know of any plans for apt-get on OpenBSD? After playing with FreeBSD, Slackware and Debian, I seem to like Debian the best because it seems the most full-featured (more packages preconfigured than for slackware?) and I don't get crappy linker errors like in slackware trying to resolve dependencies compiling stuff from source tarballs. Although, I still can't get the updating planetbg to stick in the root window when I log out. --mark-- From nick at zork.net Thu Aug 8 13:22:26 2002 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:22:26 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: References: <20020808070046.GG25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020808202226.GV19372@zork.net> begin Mark Hedges quotation: > Anyone know of any plans for apt-get on OpenBSD? http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2002/debian-devel-200204/msg01114.html http://non-us.debian.org/~andreas/obsd/ (thanks to rick's tips doc) -- Jack Valenti is to the American film viewer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone. -- http://cryptome.org/hrcw-hear.htm (search for "Boston") From jan at caustic.org Thu Aug 8 13:41:06 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020808132800.J45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Mark Hedges wrote: > Anyone know of any plans for apt-get on OpenBSD? i'm not sure why you'd do this for the main sources. on of the advantages most BSDs provide is the "world" option, building everything from scratch for a full upgrade. with openbsd, of course, you can't just sectionalise everything. well, you could, but it would make things somewhat unstable. the snapshots are provided for some of this support, doing rebuilds several times a month, usually. > After playing with FreeBSD, Slackware and Debian, I seem to like > Debian the best because it seems the most full-featured (more > packages preconfigured than for slackware?) and I don't get > crappy linker errors like in slackware trying to resolve > dependencies compiling stuff from source tarballs. Although, I > still can't get the updating planetbg to stick in the root > window when I log out. as freebsd's ports system has slowly bloated and created situations where you don't have a choice BUT to use GNOME or KDE for many of the packages (just because i want to build GAIM does not mean i want all of GNOME to go with it..) or have it included anyway. i'm not sure how different apt-get is from the FreeBSD ports system (or the OpenBSD variant of it). anything that makes handling ports, library versions and such easier can't be all bad. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From hedges at ucsd.edu Thu Aug 8 14:24:45 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <20020808132800.J45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: You know, I probably just didn't play with ports enough to know. Thanks for the info. --mark-- On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, f.johan.beisser wrote: > Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:41:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: f.johan.beisser > To: Mark Hedges > Cc: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build > > On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Mark Hedges wrote: > > > Anyone know of any plans for apt-get on OpenBSD? > > i'm not sure why you'd do this for the main sources. on of the advantages > most BSDs provide is the "world" option, building everything from scratch > for a full upgrade. > > with openbsd, of course, you can't just sectionalise everything. well, you > could, but it would make things somewhat unstable. the snapshots are > provided for some of this support, doing rebuilds several times a month, > usually. > > > After playing with FreeBSD, Slackware and Debian, I seem to like > > Debian the best because it seems the most full-featured (more > > packages preconfigured than for slackware?) and I don't get > > crappy linker errors like in slackware trying to resolve > > dependencies compiling stuff from source tarballs. Although, I > > still can't get the updating planetbg to stick in the root > > window when I log out. > > as freebsd's ports system has slowly bloated and created situations where > you don't have a choice BUT to use GNOME or KDE for many of the packages > (just because i want to build GAIM does not mean i want all of GNOME to go > with it..) or have it included anyway. > > i'm not sure how different apt-get is from the FreeBSD ports system (or > the OpenBSD variant of it). anything that makes handling ports, library > versions and such easier can't be all bad. > > > -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ > http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org > "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse > of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From jan at caustic.org Thu Aug 8 14:49:21 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020808142809.X45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Mark Hedges wrote: > You know, I probably just didn't play with ports enough to know. > Thanks for the info. the ports system is what got me to stop using Linux many years ago. for more info, check out: http://www.freebsd.org/ports/ http://www.openbsd.org/ports.html essentially, they provide a clean system for building and handling anything outside of the base OS. it should, hopefully, build all dependancies (for example, if you build xv, it should build jpeg, gif, and tiff libraries for you). if you're keeping up with -stable (in freebsd) just about everything should "just work." the only real issue is that the ports collection is very large, consuming a fair amount of disk space. jan at freebsd > du -h /usr/ports [massive scroll] 248M /usr/ports occasionally cleaning out /usr/ports/distfiles helps reduce the bloat. of course, if you only grab what you need.. that'll help aswell. kind of an attractive feature, overall. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From itz at speakeasy.org Thu Aug 8 15:15:52 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 08 Aug 2002 15:15:52 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: Security Matters and Anti-Matters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <867kj1yp2f.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Mark> Even if you did start the group, [...] Seems quite unlikely from someone who posts in 125-character lines. Mark> you're not likely to regain your popularity by telling everyone Mark> that they're not as cool as you. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Aug 8 16:36:34 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:36:34 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: References: <20020808070046.GG25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020808233634.GK25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Mark Hedges (hedges at ucsd.edu): > Anyone know of any plans for apt-get on OpenBSD? I see that Nick beat me to it. And he's the perfect person to address other parts of this topic (a point I'll return to later), but I'll have a shot at those, instead: Since the conversation has lamentably turned serious, I should stress that what makes Debian work isn't really apt-get, but rather the application of Debian Policy. Since I've had this conversation before, please pardon the FAQ reference: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-policy Because of that consistent, enforced content policy, it's literally true (not just an aspiration) that you need only install Debian on a host once, and never need install new versions: New "releases" are just new starting points with improved starting hardware support, and have no relevance to already-running systems. Instead of big version jumps (and downtime) at ~6 month intervals when new distribution "versions" come out, a Debian system's admin just resynchronises it occasionally to current versions of his installed packages on the Debian package mirrors, which receive package revisions (from the 1000+ package maintainers) on an ongoing basis. E.g., every week or so (or at times of my choosing), I might do: # apt-get update # Fetch new package catalogues from pkg. sources. # apt-get dist-upgrade # Upgrade all installed software to newest # versions indicated, if necessary fetching # new packages to meet dependencies. One specifies a set of "package sources" in /etc/apt/sources.list . Typically, one has elected to "track" (as we say) one of three Debian development tracks: o "stable" = highly conservative versions, somewhat behind the times o "unstable" = bleeding edge devel track; access to new packages as uploaded o "testing" = "unstable" with automated quarantining for quality control Admins of desktop systems and most servers would generally be happiest with "testing". Most of the time, "stable" of necessity is too trailing-edge and deprives you of access to goodies, and the "unstable" track can make your system go drastically wrong because, e.g., the libc or perl package maintainer made a ghastly error that he hadn't yet fixed when you did your apt-get run. _Anyhow_, my point is that just trying to graft apt-get (or imitate its feature set) on an existing *ix without a radical overhaul of its contents and development model is cargo-cult programming: It doesn't work as intended. (Read my comments about Conectiva at the indicated URL, for more about that.) Attempting such a graft gives you Linux-Mandrake's urpmi, Red Hat's up2date/RHN, and so on -- half a loaf, better than nothing. Debian's package distribution is primarily binary-oriented. Auto-building from Debianised source tarballs _is_ there, but not as well developed. Joey Hess is working on a full-blown Debian source-oriented extension of the Debian framework. (I can't find references on that at the moment.) The fact that you noticed the software toolchains on Debian working properly is no accident: Toolsets are essential to Debian, and much effort goes into ensuring that problems get ironed out so that _any_ reasonable Debian system can build its packages without fragile configuration requirements. Completely source-oriented Linux distributions include Gentoo, Source Mage, and Lunar Linux. Nick Moffitt's newly developed GAR framework, now being extensively used in the LNX-BBC project, is shaping up into the foundation of a full-blown source-oriented Linux distribution, and should look familiar to those who've studied the BSD ports system -- but much cleaner. Please see: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5819 -- Cheers, Emacs is a good operating system, but I prefer Linux. Rick Moen rick at linuxmafia.com From ms at formulae.org Fri Aug 9 11:04:04 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 11:04:04 -0700 Subject: [buug] Fwd: Apache 2.0 vulnerability affects non-Unix platforms Message-ID: <20020809110404.A98085@formulae.org> If anyone is running apache 2 as I am, you will want to read this. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Mark J Cox Subject: Apache 2.0 vulnerability affects non-Unix platforms Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:54:08 +0100 (BST) Size: 3849 URL: From itz at speakeasy.org Fri Aug 9 11:09:05 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 09 Aug 2002 11:09:05 -0700 Subject: [buug] linux-2.4.19 and tk8.2 Message-ID: <86ofcb9a66.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> After trying to upgrade the kernel from 2.4.16 to 2.4.19, my tk8.2 apps broke (specifically: truetype fonts are scaled down to an unreadable miniature size). I suspect the updated drm driver since that is the only point where my (traditional, non-fb) X server couples tightly with the kernel. some environment information: itz:~$ dpkg --list xserver-xfree86 Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Description +++-==============-==============-============================================ ii xserver-xfree8 4.1.0-5 the XFree86 X server itz:~$ dpkg --list tk8.2 Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Description +++-==============-==============-============================================ ii tk8.2 8.2.3-4 The Tk toolkit for TCL and X11 v8.2 - Run-Ti itz:~$ sed -n -e '/^Section "Device"/,/^EndSection/p' /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 Section "Device" Identifier "ATI Xpert 128" Driver "r128" VideoRam 16384 # Option "backingstore" EndSection itz:~$ Can anyone here either confirm or authoritatively deny the suspicion? Also, the kernel configuration has a new backward compatibility option for drm, but it is undocumented in 2.4.19. Would selecting this option fix the problem? If there's an archive or FAQ for this list that is likely to answer this question, please point me to it. Thanks. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From ms at formulae.org Fri Aug 9 13:19:14 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:19:14 -0700 Subject: [buug] data manipulation problem - UNIX sed/awk/perl solution ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020809131914.B98085@formulae.org> On Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 03:29:12PM -0400, Gorden-Ozgul, Patricia E wrote: > Michael, > > I appreciate your response. I couldn't get your suggestions to work. Each > tme vi returns 'Not an editor command'. It's okay, though. I'll work > around it. Oh, you aren't using vim. vim is basically a seriously improved vi that most people use. www.vim.org. I generally assume people use vim nowadays and not the classic vi. > Why in heaven's name would you want to work here at Brookhaven? I guess > I've just been here too long. No reason other then it would sound good on a resume, "Computer Scientist at National Laboratory". > Pat > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Salmon [mailto:ms at formulae.org] > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:09 PM > To: Gorden-Ozgul, Patricia E > Cc: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] data manipulation problem - UNIX sed/awk/perl > solution??? > > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 01:57:21PM -0400, Gorden-Ozgul, Patricia E wrote: > > I'm a 'database' person who enters the wonderful word of UNIX only > > occasionally. > > It usually provides a solution to any problem if one knows how to use it. > > > > I'm in the process of converting data from one system to another. > > I have a datafile that requires manipulation. > > When observing the data in vi, while in :set list mode, each line ends > with > > '$' > > > > My problem? > > The source system truncated some lines of data, placing the '$' > prematurely > > to and began a new line. For example: > > > > ... > > ... > > <#NAME = PUBLISHER>Random House > > <#NAME = AUTHOR>Smith, James; Smith, Peter; Smith, Johanna; Smith, > Roberta; > > Smith, Robert; Smith, Douglas; Smith, Katherine; Smith, Denis; Smith, > > Mustafa$ > > Smith, Karen; Smith, Alexander; Smith, Alexandra$ > > <#NAME = TITLE>This is the Title$ > > ... > > ... > > > > What do I want? > > > > ... > > ... > > <#NAME = PUBLISHER>Random House > > <#NAME = AUTHOR>Smith, James; Smith, Peter; Smith, Johanna; Smith, > Roberta; > > Smith, Robert; Smith, Douglas; Smith, Katherine; Smith, Denis; Smith, > > Mustafa; Smith, Karen; Smith, Alexander; Smith, Alexandra$ > > <#NAME = TITLE>This is the Title$ > > > Would anyone out there have code that would perform this task? > > in vim do. > :g /^$[^<]$/-1j > or > :g /^[^<]/normal kJ\1x > > now how about getting me a job at that big fancy laboratory? :) > > > > > Please respond to gorden at bnl.gov. > > > > Pat Gorden-Ozgul > > _______________________________________________ > > Buug mailing list > > Buug at weak.org > > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug From nick at zork.net Fri Aug 9 13:47:59 2002 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:47:59 -0700 Subject: [buug] data manipulation problem - UNIX sed/awk/perl solution ??? In-Reply-To: <20020809131914.B98085@formulae.org> References: <20020809131914.B98085@formulae.org> Message-ID: <20020809204759.GA16013@zork.net> begin Michael Salmon quotation: > > I appreciate your response. I couldn't get your suggestions to > > work. Each tme vi returns 'Not an editor command'. It's okay, > > though. I'll work around it. > > Oh, you aren't using vim. vim is basically a seriously improved vi > that most people use. www.vim.org. I generally assume people use vim > nowadays and not the classic vi. The vi that's included on most BSDs happens to be nvi, largely because of size and historical reasons. vim is always in the ports collection, though. -- Jack Valenti is to the American film viewer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone. -- http://cryptome.org/hrcw-hear.htm (search for "Boston") From nick at zork.net Fri Aug 9 14:14:28 2002 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:14:28 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <20020808233634.GK25331@linuxmafia.com> References: <20020808070046.GG25331@linuxmafia.com> <20020808233634.GK25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020809211427.GB16013@zork.net> A little mixed quotation, for context: begin Rick Moen Lives Three Hours from Nowhere quotation: > I see that Nick beat me to it. And he's the perfect person to > address other parts of this topic (a point I'll return to later), [...later...] > Completely source-oriented Linux distributions include Gentoo, > Source Mage, and Lunar Linux. Nick Moffitt's newly developed GAR > framework, now being extensively used in the LNX-BBC project, is > shaping up into the foundation of a full-blown source-oriented Linux > distribution, and should look familiar to those who've studied the > BSD ports system -- but much cleaner. [...and earlier again...] > Since the conversation has lamentably turned serious, I should > stress that what makes Debian work isn't really apt-get, but rather > the application of Debian Policy. Since I've had this conversation > before, please pardon the FAQ reference: > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/debian-policy And this has of course been the crux of all our problems with GAR, too. Look at gar.mk and gar.lib.mk, and compare it to just bsd.port.mk. You'll see that it's a far more elegant and orthogonal design, with much to recommend it. And yet, as a useful tree of software, GAR totally sucks compared to BSD ports. Why is that? Well, partly it's because BSD has had a long time to hammer out port maintainership to a science. They've managed to implement the same kind of package standards (arguments about levels of quality can be had on the bsd advocacy lists) as Debian's. GAR is a young tree that is still working on hammering out standards like these: * http://gar.lnx-bbc.org/wiki/RulesAfterInclude * http://gar.lnx-bbc.org/wiki/ImplicitDestdirConsideredHarmful Now, to defend GAR, it's also trying to solve a number of more difficult problems than BSD ports. It's trying to build on a wide variety of systems (did you know that I've gotten GARNOME bug reports from HP-UX and AIX users? We were only half-joking when we said that the next batch would probably be from CygWin!). As far as the BBC goes, it's trying to build filesystem images without requiring root privilege (which we succeeded in doing, I'm very happy to say!). We're also trying to build glibc, which is sysyphian to say the least. Because of this, we're currently somewhat bound to a rather specific Debian installation (certain header files confuse glibc's build to destruction). It's a lot like trying to do the BSD world plus ports on a system where EVERYTHING is a port. It's messy. So I can categorically say that no matter how neat your packaging tools are, they are simply that -- a tool for implementing packaging policy. All the real work goes into package polishing and testing. These tools remind us that packages do not exist in a vacuum, and must behave properly in some rather bizarre constellations of installed software. > Because of that consistent, enforced content policy, it's literally > true (not just an aspiration) that you need only install Debian on a > host once, and never need install new versions: New "releases" are > just new starting points with improved starting hardware support, > and have no relevance to already-running systems. Instead of big > version jumps (and downtime) at ~6 month intervals when new > distribution "versions" come out, a Debian system's admin just > resynchronises it occasionally to current versions of his installed > packages on the Debian package mirrors, which receive package > revisions (from the 1000+ package maintainers) on an ongoing basis. I upgrade my box daily. Usually I'd say it averages a couple of packages upgraded per day -- more on my desktop box. BSD folks find the same thing with their cvsup port rebuilds. FreeBSD has a nice script to automate upgrades of already-built ports. -- Jack Valenti is to the American film viewer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone. -- http://cryptome.org/hrcw-hear.htm (search for "Boston") From jan at caustic.org Fri Aug 9 14:41:21 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <20020809211427.GB16013@zork.net> Message-ID: <20020809143352.L45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Nick Moffitt wrote: > Now, to defend GAR, it's also trying to solve a number of more > difficult problems than BSD ports. It's trying to build on a wide > variety of systems (did you know that I've gotten GARNOME bug reports > from HP-UX and AIX users? We were only half-joking when we said that > the next batch would probably be from CygWin!). As far as the BBC > goes, it's trying to build filesystem images without requiring root > privilege (which we succeeded in doing, I'm very happy to say!). the BSD folk have attempted to do much the same with the ports system. at one point, there was an attempt at having a unified ports tree, but differences between the various BSD UNIX systems made this a near impossible task. there's much to be said for having a ports system that can handle all the differences between various hardware. > We're also trying to build glibc, which is sysyphian to say > the least. Because of this, we're currently somewhat bound to a > rather specific Debian installation (certain header files confuse > glibc's build to destruction). It's a lot like trying to do the BSD > world plus ports on a system where EVERYTHING is a port. It's messy. messy is being kind. the BSD system of keeping a base OS, then having everything else fairly separate has made some upgrades much easier. other things are a little more broken, and harder to deal with. glibc being just one of those little details. > I upgrade my box daily. Usually I'd say it averages a couple > of packages upgraded per day -- more on my desktop box. BSD folks > find the same thing with their cvsup port rebuilds. FreeBSD has a > nice script to automate upgrades of already-built ports. i upgrade my sources 3 or 4 times a week. i tend to not upgrade ports too often, since i don't want to deal with breakage. on the other hand, i'll upgrade the OS every few months. either from the patch branch, or the -stable branch. depending on my needs. with my gradual move over to OpenBSD, i've been slowly edging in on using only teh snapshots. upgrades happen sporatically though, at best. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From michel at daenzer.net Fri Aug 9 15:18:41 2002 From: michel at daenzer.net (Michel =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E4nzer?=) Date: 10 Aug 2002 00:18:41 +0200 Subject: [buug] Re: [Dri-devel] linux-2.4.19 and tk8.2 In-Reply-To: <86ofcb9a66.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> References: <86ofcb9a66.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <1028931522.1077.679.camel@tibook> On Fri, 2002-08-09 at 20:09, Ian Zimmerman wrote: > > After trying to upgrade the kernel from 2.4.16 to 2.4.19, my tk8.2 > apps broke (specifically: truetype fonts are scaled down to an > unreadable miniature size). I suspect the updated drm driver since > that is the only point where my (traditional, non-fb) X server couples > tightly with the kernel. > > some environment information: > > itz:~$ dpkg --list xserver-xfree86 > Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold > | Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed > |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) > ||/ Name Version Description > +++-==============-==============-============================================ > ii xserver-xfree8 4.1.0-5 the XFree86 X server > itz:~$ dpkg --list tk8.2 > Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold > | Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed > |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) > ||/ Name Version Description > +++-==============-==============-============================================ > ii tk8.2 8.2.3-4 The Tk toolkit for TCL and X11 v8.2 - Run-Ti > itz:~$ sed -n -e '/^Section "Device"/,/^EndSection/p' /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 > Section "Device" > Identifier "ATI Xpert 128" > Driver "r128" > VideoRam 16384 > # Option "backingstore" > EndSection > itz:~$ > > Can anyone here either confirm or authoritatively deny the suspicion? Very unlikely, the DRM isn't directly related to fonts. -- Earthling Michel D?nzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc) developer XFree86 and DRI project member / CS student, Free Software enthusiast From hedges at ucsd.edu Sat Aug 10 09:58:55 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 09:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <20020808233634.GK25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > > o "stable" = highly conservative versions, somewhat behind the times > o "unstable" = bleeding edge devel track; access to new packages as uploaded > o "testing" = "unstable" with automated quarantining for quality control > > Admins of desktop systems and most servers would generally be happiest > with "testing". Most of the time, "stable" of necessity is too > trailing-edge and deprives you of access to goodies, and the "unstable" > track can make your system go drastically wrong because, e.g., the libc > or perl package maintainer made a ghastly error that he hadn't yet fixed > when you did your apt-get run. > I'm sorry to say this is some of the worst advice I've run into. "testing" appears to be "unstable." I did dist-upgrade after adding the testing directories, and when trying to correct font problems with defoma, everything started to go haywire. Finally after the installation was completely fubar I reinstalled altogether. Can anyone recommend a good method to scour re-initialized disks for ghost files that might still be around? Or am I screwed? --mark-- From rick at linuxmafia.com Sat Aug 10 10:30:27 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:30:27 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: References: <20020808233634.GK25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020810173027.GK25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Mark Hedges (hedges at ucsd.edu): > I'm sorry to say this is some of the worst advice I've run into. > "testing" appears to be "unstable." I've been running the Debian-testing branch on both desktop and non-desktop machines (at first, just test machines) since shortly after that branch was introduced in December 2000. Without problems I can recall. And I did so only after consultation with other admins of large collections of machines, to compare notes. > I did dist-upgrade after adding the testing directories... The foregoing is more than a little vague. How big a version jump were you attempting? I did _not_ say that you can directly jump from, say, an elderly, unmaintained 2.2/potato installation to post-3.0/sarge, and from XFree86 3.3.6 to XFree86 4.1, without problems. In fact, in the message you objected to, I didn't address version jumps at all. All I did was characterise the three Debian development tracks -- correctly. I'm sorry to hear about your problem, whatever it was. Alas, I wasn't around to suggest how to avoid creating it. -- Cheers, Linux: Good, fast, AND cheap. Rick Moen rick at linuxmafia.com From hedges at ucsd.edu Sat Aug 10 10:54:40 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: <20020810173027.GK25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > > I did dist-upgrade after adding the testing directories... > > The foregoing is more than a little vague. How big a version jump were > you attempting? From a fresh install of woody. I dunno. I should have backed up before I reinitialized. I'm a little upset with myself now. The data wasn't that important, though; I can do without it. lde won't give me anything useful. It's gone. --mark-- From rick at linuxmafia.com Sat Aug 10 13:40:29 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:40:29 -0700 Subject: [buug] cockroaches and kernel build In-Reply-To: References: <20020810173027.GK25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020810204029.GN25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Mark Hedges (hedges at ucsd.edu): > From a fresh install of woody. I dunno. I should have backed > up before I reinitialized. I'm a little upset with myself now. > The data wasn't that important, though; I can do without it. > lde won't give me anything useful. It's gone. My condolences, seriously. I can't give any useful analysis at this point, for lack of data, I'm afraid. -- Cheers, "Reality is not optional." Rick Moen -- Thomas Sowell rick at linuxmafia.com From slobluz at pacbell.net Mon Aug 12 19:22:13 2002 From: slobluz at pacbell.net (E. Carter) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:22:13 -0700 Subject: [buug] meeting References: <86y9br35fh.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <3D586D55.1040605@pacbell.net> Hi all, Unfortunately, I'll miss the upcoming BUUG meeting this week. This would've been my first meeting. I look forward to meeting you at the next one. Take care. Regards, Eric Carter From bonkers at thetechbox.com Mon Aug 12 22:22:42 2002 From: bonkers at thetechbox.com (Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman)) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:22:42 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. Message-ID: <3D5897A2.4090701@thetechbox.com> I'm new to this UUG.... I've been wanting to get into a lot of Unix or Linux based groups so I can learn lots. I'm in SDLUG and this, so I hope to learn a lot. I host my own mandrake server which seems pathetic, I want to change it to Unix, or change the Linux distro, I don't like RPMs very much. Anyway, I was just wondering what the main diffrences were between Unix and Linux? ~Matt Bockman P.S. Yes, my parents are from the Bockman clan, I'm 14, their son. From jan at caustic.org Mon Aug 12 22:37:53 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <3D5897A2.4090701@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020812222731.A45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) wrote: > I'm new to this UUG.... I've been wanting to get into a lot of Unix or > Linux based groups so I can learn lots. I'm in SDLUG and this, so I hope > to learn a lot. I host my own mandrake server which seems pathetic, I > want to change it to Unix, or change the Linux distro, I don't like RPMs > very much. RPMs are kludgy. good for package management, but not much more than that. Mandrake's not a bad version of linux, really. one of the better installers out there from what i understand. the more technical people seem to have a debate between Slackware and Debian. i tend to push people to either FreeBSD or OpenBSD, depending on what people want from the OS. > Anyway, I was just wondering what the main diffrences were between Unix > and Linux? UNIX is a trademark, held by someone on high. it's also a certification standard, which costs much money to gain. Linux is the kernel used in several UNIX clones. GNU/Linux is the UNIX-like toolset for handling the Linux Kernel. the various BSDs are UNIX-like OSs, built off of the BSD 4.4-Lite code. other than that, there's not much of a difference, except by flavour and project goals (for the Free OSs..) and intent by the company (for things like UNICOS, Solaris/SunOS, IRIX and such). -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Aug 12 22:48:33 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:48:33 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <3D5897A2.4090701@thetechbox.com> References: <3D5897A2.4090701@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020813054833.GU25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) (bonkers at thetechbox.com): > I'm new to this UUG.... I've been wanting to get into a lot of Unix or > Linux based groups so I can learn lots. I'm in SDLUG and this, so I hope > to learn a lot. I host my own mandrake server which seems pathetic, I > want to change it to Unix, or change the Linux distro, I don't like RPMs > very much. Welcome. You've fallen into the clutches of a mixed BSD / Linux crowd, hereabouts. If you're physically in the Bay Area, you might want to attend the 11th anniversary Linux Picnic, this coming Saturday in Sunnyvale. Free of charge, but you should RSVP. Reservation on-line form, and full details, are at http://www.linuxpicnic.org/ . There's also, of course, the IDG LinuxWorld conference starting tomorrow at Moscone Center in S.F. > Anyway, I was just wondering what the main diffrences were between > Unix and Linux? First, you'd have to decide what "Unix" is in 2002. And whether you or anyone else cares. It used to be reasonably clear what Unix is, and also that people cared. These days, the concept's a bit muddy, and also there's little reason to care. To elaborate: AT&T Bell Labs was of course originally responsible for the thing, which started out being a copyrighted codebase plus a trademarked name to go with it. UC Berkeley's Computer Science Research Group gradually made the codebase bearable, without ever having rights to the trademark. (That codebase was of course the ancestral BSD.) In the process, CSRG replaced literally all AT&T code. Both the AT&T and Berkeley codebases, through 30+ years of tangled history, gave rise to innumerable offshoots. Plus there were independent reinventions based on the same ideas with either little or literally no AT&T code. But everyone with at least a little common sense borrowed _Berkeley_ code, because it was permitted to do so, and because that code failed to suck. (Note that this _is_ a Berkeley mailing list.) As a result, current direct descendents of CSRG's BSD -- FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Apple Darwin, Apple Macintosh OS X, Tenon MachTen, and probably some others I'm forgetting -- can claim to have their kernels and some of the surrounding code be _descended_ from "Unix" (meaning AT&T's copyrighted codebase)l, but in fairness can say they _are_ "Unix" only in a sort of homeopathic sense of the essence of Unixness clinging to it even after the last AT&T molecule was long gone. Systems built around the Linux kernel (which may be what you mean when you say "Linux") have a kernel codebase written independently (more or less) of both AT&T and CSRG, plus a small amount of surrounding code that's ideosyncratic to the Linux kernel, plus a great deal of code surrounding that that's _literally_ the same as on common BSD-descended systems and other *ix-ish systems. Speaking of *ix systems, there remain all manner of non-open source *ixes that are Not Dead Yet. People often say "*ix" as a slightly mocking concession to the lawyers who at times have tried to maintain with a straight face that "Unix" is a valuable trademark. That trademark was tossed from AT&T to Novell, which lobbed it over to The Open Group when Novell sold the (who-cares-it's-now-worthless) legacy AT&T Unix codebase to SCO, Inc. -- which in turn was absorbed into Caldera, Inc. So, if you literally want to call your *ix "Unix", you have to put up with whatever anal-probe techniques The Open Group has in mind for that purpose. But that brings me back to the original point: Nobody really cares whether one may legally call something "Unix". Largely, nobody really cares whether something _is_ Unix in any non-lawyerly sense, either: Lookng from a functional perspective, those are irrelevant, and what matters is support for more-or-less standard system calls and other conventional system architecture that allow easy portability among members of the *ix family. In short, wrong question. ;-> However, welcome. -- Cheers, A good man has few enemies; a ruthless man has none. Rick Moen rick at linuxmafia.com From bonkers at thetechbox.com Mon Aug 12 22:56:22 2002 From: bonkers at thetechbox.com (Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman)) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:56:22 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. References: <20020812222731.A45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <3D589F86.4080408@thetechbox.com> Umm... Well... My friend says that the only operating system thats worth installing for a server is FreeBSD. He's attached to it, yet he's never installed or used any *nix-like OS's. He says Linux is a poor excuse for a desktop, and that Unix is the only way to go. He wouldn't know though. I think I want to make my own Linux (via LFS) and use that. Now that I think of it, FreeBSD is Unix-Like, so is Linux. Which is most effective for a server that hosts 1 email account and 1 website that gets 100 hits a month? Oh, and I run SSH. I just wanna host a good server with a perfect or almost perfect uptime, and I want it to be secure so I protect its one user. heh. ~Matt Bockman f.johan.beisser wrote: >On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) wrote: > > > >>I'm new to this UUG.... I've been wanting to get into a lot of Unix or >>Linux based groups so I can learn lots. I'm in SDLUG and this, so I hope >>to learn a lot. I host my own mandrake server which seems pathetic, I >>want to change it to Unix, or change the Linux distro, I don't like RPMs >>very much. >> >> > >RPMs are kludgy. good for package management, but not much more than that. > >Mandrake's not a bad version of linux, really. one of the better >installers out there from what i understand. the more technical people >seem to have a debate between Slackware and Debian. > >i tend to push people to either FreeBSD or OpenBSD, depending on what >people want from the OS. > > > >>Anyway, I was just wondering what the main diffrences were between Unix >>and Linux? >> >> > >UNIX is a trademark, held by someone on high. it's also a certification >standard, which costs much money to gain. >Linux is the kernel used in several UNIX clones. GNU/Linux is the >UNIX-like toolset for handling the Linux Kernel. >the various BSDs are UNIX-like OSs, built off of the BSD 4.4-Lite code. > >other than that, there's not much of a difference, except by flavour and >project goals (for the Free OSs..) and intent by the company (for things >like UNICOS, Solaris/SunOS, IRIX and such). > >-------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ > http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org > "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse > of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche > > > > > From bonkers at thetechbox.com Mon Aug 12 23:06:51 2002 From: bonkers at thetechbox.com (Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman)) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:06:51 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. References: <3D5897A2.4090701@thetechbox.com> <20020813054833.GU25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <3D58A1FB.6020002@thetechbox.com> Wow... I like this mailing list. Well, would you think that BSD would be better then a Linux system for my circumstances? I mean, I don't know where to go with this. ~Matt Bockman Rick Moen wrote: >Quoting Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) (bonkers at thetechbox.com): > > > >>I'm new to this UUG.... I've been wanting to get into a lot of Unix or >>Linux based groups so I can learn lots. I'm in SDLUG and this, so I hope >>to learn a lot. I host my own mandrake server which seems pathetic, I >>want to change it to Unix, or change the Linux distro, I don't like RPMs >>very much. >> >> > >Welcome. You've fallen into the clutches of a mixed BSD / Linux crowd, >hereabouts. > >If you're physically in the Bay Area, you might want to attend the 11th >anniversary Linux Picnic, this coming Saturday in Sunnyvale. Free of >charge, but you should RSVP. Reservation on-line form, and full >details, are at http://www.linuxpicnic.org/ . > >There's also, of course, the IDG LinuxWorld conference starting tomorrow >at Moscone Center in S.F. > > > >>Anyway, I was just wondering what the main diffrences were between >>Unix and Linux? >> >> > >First, you'd have to decide what "Unix" is in 2002. And whether you or >anyone else cares. > >It used to be reasonably clear what Unix is, and also that people cared. >These days, the concept's a bit muddy, and also there's little reason to >care. > >To elaborate: AT&T Bell Labs was of course originally responsible for >the thing, which started out being a copyrighted codebase plus a >trademarked name to go with it. UC Berkeley's Computer Science Research >Group gradually made the codebase bearable, without ever having rights >to the trademark. (That codebase was of course the ancestral BSD.) In >the process, CSRG replaced literally all AT&T code. > >Both the AT&T and Berkeley codebases, through 30+ years of tangled >history, gave rise to innumerable offshoots. Plus there were >independent reinventions based on the same ideas with either little or >literally no AT&T code. But everyone with at least a little common >sense borrowed _Berkeley_ code, because it was permitted to do so, and >because that code failed to suck. (Note that this _is_ a Berkeley >mailing list.) > >As a result, current direct descendents of CSRG's BSD -- FreeBSD, >NetBSD, OpenBSD, Apple Darwin, Apple Macintosh OS X, Tenon MachTen, and >probably some others I'm forgetting -- can claim to have their kernels >and some of the surrounding code be _descended_ from "Unix" (meaning >AT&T's copyrighted codebase)l, but in fairness can say they _are_ "Unix" >only in a sort of homeopathic sense of the essence of Unixness clinging >to it even after the last AT&T molecule was long gone. > >Systems built around the Linux kernel (which may be what you mean when >you say "Linux") have a kernel codebase written independently (more or >less) of both AT&T and CSRG, plus a small amount of surrounding code >that's ideosyncratic to the Linux kernel, plus a great deal of code >surrounding that that's _literally_ the same as on common BSD-descended >systems and other *ix-ish systems. > >Speaking of *ix systems, there remain all manner of non-open source >*ixes that are Not Dead Yet. People often say "*ix" as a slightly >mocking concession to the lawyers who at times have tried to maintain >with a straight face that "Unix" is a valuable trademark. > >That trademark was tossed from AT&T to Novell, which lobbed it over to >The Open Group when Novell sold the (who-cares-it's-now-worthless) >legacy AT&T Unix codebase to SCO, Inc. -- which in turn was absorbed >into Caldera, Inc. So, if you literally want to call your *ix "Unix", >you have to put up with whatever anal-probe techniques The Open Group >has in mind for that purpose. > >But that brings me back to the original point: Nobody really cares >whether one may legally call something "Unix". Largely, nobody really >cares whether something _is_ Unix in any non-lawyerly sense, either: >Lookng from a functional perspective, those are irrelevant, and what >matters is support for more-or-less standard system calls and other >conventional system architecture that allow easy portability among >members of the *ix family. > >In short, wrong question. ;-> However, welcome. > > > From atporter at primate.net Mon Aug 12 23:09:48 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:09:48 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <3D58A1FB.6020002@thetechbox.com> References: <3D5897A2.4090701@thetechbox.com> <20020813054833.GU25331@linuxmafia.com> <3D58A1FB.6020002@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020813060948.GB30847@primate.net> On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 11:06:51PM -0700, Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) wrote: > Wow... I like this mailing list. Well, would you think that BSD would be > better then a Linux system for my circumstances? I mean, I don't know > where to go with this. Either would work just fine. From jan at caustic.org Mon Aug 12 23:10:04 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <3D589F86.4080408@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020812225824.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) wrote: > Umm... Well... My friend says that the only operating system thats worth > installing for a server is FreeBSD. out of the BSDs, FreeBSD is one of the best documented, and easiest to install and handle. the installer takes very little work to understand, the documentation is copious. > He's attached to it, yet he's never installed or used any *nix-like > OS's. he has, sort of. if you mean he's not installed another BSD, i don't see why he should. if you find something you like, and it does everything you want and need it to, why shift? > He says Linux is a poor excuse for a desktop, and that Unix is the only > way to go. He wouldn't know though. I think I want to make my own Linux > (via LFS) and use that. again, you need to see what meets your needs. if some variant of linux does the trick, use that. if FreeBSD does it, use that. if OpenBSD does it, use that. if you just want to try a bunch out untill you find "what works best for you", do it. there's no harm in trying stuff out. that's why there's so many choices. > Now that I think of it, FreeBSD is Unix-Like, so is Linux. Which is most > effective for a server that hosts 1 email account and 1 website that > gets 100 hits a month? really, any will do. the trick is if the OS meets your personal needs for everything you intend to do. > Oh, and I run SSH. I just wanna host a good server with a perfect or > almost perfect uptime, and I want it to be secure so I protect its one > user. heh. uptime is fairly irrelevant. the real issue is that the machine not crash or reboot when you don't expect it too. the stability of the OS is fairly directly involved. to secure any OS that's connected to the rest of the internet, you should shut off any and all unused and unneeded services. if you don't use LDAP, don't have an LDAP server installed. if you aren't using popmail, don't have a popmail service installed. very simple. then, if you don't need anything started by inetd, don't run inetd. again, this is fairly simple. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Aug 12 23:11:15 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:11:15 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <3D589F86.4080408@thetechbox.com> References: <20020812222731.A45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <3D589F86.4080408@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020813061115.GV25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) (bonkers at thetechbox.com): > Umm... Well... My friend says that the only operating system thats worth > installing for a server is FreeBSD. All God's chillun' got opinions. > He's attached to it, yet he's never installed or used any *nix-like > OS's. There's a kind of purity to that mindset. It should be protected. If necessary, in a wildlife preserve for antique mentalities in danger of contamination. > I think I want to make my own Linux (via LFS) and use that. You could do that. It'd probably be lots of fun. > Which is most effective for a server that hosts 1 email account and 1 > website that gets 100 hits a month? _Mu._ http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/mu.html (The question cannot be reasonably answered as stated.) It (obviously) depends on your criteria, and on what your understanding of the word "effective" is -- and is probably debatable entirely aside from those considerations. > Oh, and I run SSH. I just wanna host a good server with a > perfect or almost perfect uptime, and I want it to be secure so I > protect its one user. If you want "perfect or almost perfect uptime", you should worry more about quality of hardware and about redundant, battery-backed power supplies than about choice of *ix. So, I have to wonder: Are you just trying to stir up debates, or what? -- Cheers, "This is mad, egotistical, sick, twisted, and stretches the bounds of Rick Moen good taste right off the tongue, past the uvula, and down around rick at linuxmafia.com the duodenum. It has other merits, but that should indicate positive interest." -- The Cube, http://www.forum3000.org/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Aug 12 23:17:58 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:17:58 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <3D58A1FB.6020002@thetechbox.com> References: <3D5897A2.4090701@thetechbox.com> <20020813054833.GU25331@linuxmafia.com> <3D58A1FB.6020002@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020813061758.GW25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) (bonkers at thetechbox.com): > Wow... I like this mailing list. Well, would you think that BSD would be > better then a Linux system for my circumstances? (1) _Mu._ http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/mu.html (2) Why don't you get a pile of CD-ROMs of various *BSD and Linux systems that might be of interest, and try them out, one at a time, to see which one you like best? If you come to the Linux Picnic this coming Saturday, I'll be running an installfest. Among the things I'll bring along will be these CD sets (quoting http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/#distros): * Apple Darwin (BSD) v. 1.4.1 for i386, v. 1.3.1 for PPC * Borland Kylix Open Edition 2.0 for i386 * Conectiva Linux 8.0 (4 disks) for i386 * Corel Linux 1.2 AKA "second edition" for i386 * Corel WordPerfect 8.0 Download Personal Edition for i386 Linux * CRUX 0.9.3 for i386 * Debian Official "woody" 3.0r0 for i386 (7 disks) * Debian "woody" 3.0 w/Progeny Graphical Installer for i386 * Debian Official "potato" 2.2r3 for PPC (1 disk) and SPARC (3 disks) * Debian Official "woody" 3.0r0 for DEC Alpha (7 disks) * Debian Unofficial "woody" pre-3.0 2001-12-27 netinst for i386 and PPC * DemoLinux 3.0 for i386 * EasyLinux 1.2 for i386 (2 disks) * FreeBSD 4.6.1rc2 "stable" for i386 * FreeBSD 5.0 "current" 2001-08 snapshot (6 disks) for i386 * Gentoo Linux 1.2 for i686 * Knoppix 3.1 for i386 * Libranet 2.0 "essentials disk" for i386 * Linuxcare Bootable Toolbox 2.0 for i386 * Linux-Mandrake 8.2 (3 disks) for i586 * LinuxPPC "2000 / MacWorld CD" for PPC * LNX-BBC 1.618 for i386 * Lunar Linux 20020503 for i386 * Lycoris Desktop/LX build 44 (3 disks) for i386 * MkLinux pre-R1 (2nd image) for PPC * Microsoft NetShow 2.00 build 2.51 for i386 Linux * NetBSD 1.5.2 for alpha, i386, macppc, pmax, sparc, vax, sparc64, sun3. * NetBSD 1.5.2 for amiga, arc, arm32, atari, cobalt, hp300, hpcmips, mac68k, mvme68k, news68k, next68k, pc532 * OpenBSD 3.0 (3 disks) for i386 * OpenOffice.org 1.0.0 for i386 Linux and pre-6.0 alpha build 641c for PPC Linux * Progeny 1.0 (2 disks) for i386 * Red Hat 7.3 (3 disks) and 7.1 & 7.2 (2 disks each) for i386 * Simply GNUStep Stage 2 pre1 for i386 * Slackware 8.1 for i386 * Stampede Linux 0.90 beta "happy valley" for i586 * Storm Linux 2.0.6 for i386 * Sorcerer GNU Linux 2002-05-17 for i386 * Source Mage 20020323 and 20020527beta for i386 * Sun Star Office 5.2 for i386 Linux * SuSE Linux "evaluation" 7.0 for i386, 6.3 for PPC * SuSE Linux "live evaluation" (demo disk) 8.0 for i386 * Turbo Linux Server 8.0 "viper" (2 disks) for i386 * Turbo Linux Workstation (English) 6.1 for i386 * Vermillion 7.1.1 (2 disks) and 6.2.4 for i386 * Yellow Dog 2.3 for PPC I'll even have a CDR burner. Be sure to bring lots of blanks. (If the above seems a little cranky, then understand that coming onto a mailing list full of a mixed *BSD / Linux / proprietary-Unix users and asking "What's the best Unix?" is difficult to distinguish from posting flamebait.) -- Cheers, "Not only does the English language borrow from other languages, Rick Moen it sometimes chases them through dark alleys, hits them over the rick at linuxmafia.com head, and goes through their pockets." -- Eddy Peter From atporter at primate.net Mon Aug 12 23:21:22 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:21:22 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <3D58A2F4.2050909@thetechbox.com> References: <3D5897A2.4090701@thetechbox.com> <20020813054833.GU25331@linuxmafia.com> <3D58A1FB.6020002@thetechbox.com> <20020813060948.GB30847@primate.net> <3D58A2F4.2050909@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020813062122.GD30847@primate.net> On Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 11:11:00PM -0700, Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) wrote: > Hrmm... Is it a good idea to do a Linux From Scratch system? I think I'd > learn a lot. I think I'll just do it. heh. If you build your own Linux > From Scratch system is it secure, or does that depend on how well you > build it? Linux From Scratch might be fun, but you should expect quite a few missteps along the way if that's your idea of where to start. For a reliable, stable system you'd be a lot better off with a tested distribution. From jan at caustic.org Mon Aug 12 23:24:25 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <20020813061758.GW25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020812232028.A45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > * Apple Darwin (BSD) v. 1.4.1 for i386, v. 1.3.1 for PPC i'd be interested in the i386 version of this, but i can't make the picnic due to prior obligations. is there a chance i can meet up with you and snag a copy? -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Aug 12 23:34:17 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:34:17 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <20020812232028.A45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <20020813061758.GW25331@linuxmafia.com> <20020812232028.A45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20020813063417.GZ25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting f.johan.beisser (jan at caustic.org): > i'd be interested in the i386 version of this, but i can't make the > picnic due to prior obligations. is there a chance i can meet up with you > and snag a copy? Of course. At any CABAL meeting, 2nd and 4th Saturdays, 4PM to whenever, Menlo Park. http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/ Bring blanks to burn, of course. For the picnic, I may have to impose a rule like "If you want to use one of _my_ blanks, it's $5 per disk. If you use your own, it's $1 per disk to use my burner. If you don't like my prices, I'd be ecstatic to see you undercut them." Exceptions for people I really like. (Why? Because I also need to run an installfest in addition to burning CDs for people. And I'd like to enjoy the picnic. And CDR drives have a relatively MTBF, and aren't handed out free of charge.) -- Cheers, "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first Rick Moen woman she meets, and then teams up with three complete strangers rick at linuxmafia.com to kill again." -- Rick Polito's That TV Guy column, describing the movie _The Wizard of Oz_ From bonkers at thetechbox.com Mon Aug 12 23:45:50 2002 From: bonkers at thetechbox.com (Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman)) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:45:50 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. References: <3D5897A2.4090701@thetechbox.com> <20020813054833.GU25331@linuxmafia.com> <3D58A1FB.6020002@thetechbox.com> <20020813061758.GW25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <3D58AB1E.9020004@thetechbox.com> Umm.. I can't make the install fest as I live in San Diego. What do you do at an installfest? I've got a DvD-RW (HP's) and lotsa blanks (err... I think I'm running out, time to go to Fry's)... I've got a 2.2 megabit connection (down) and I can download everything. What exactly is an installfest? I'm very interested now. ~Matt Bockman Rick Moen wrote: >Quoting Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) (bonkers at thetechbox.com): > > > >>Wow... I like this mailing list. Well, would you think that BSD would be >>better then a Linux system for my circumstances? >> >> > >(1) _Mu._ http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/mu.html > >(2) Why don't you get a pile of CD-ROMs of various *BSD and Linux >systems that might be of interest, and try them out, one at a time, to >see which one you like best? > >If you come to the Linux Picnic this coming Saturday, I'll be running an >installfest. Among the things I'll bring along will be these CD sets >(quoting http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/#distros): > > * Apple Darwin (BSD) v. 1.4.1 for i386, v. 1.3.1 for PPC > * Borland Kylix Open Edition 2.0 for i386 > * Conectiva Linux 8.0 (4 disks) for i386 > * Corel Linux 1.2 AKA "second edition" for i386 > * Corel WordPerfect 8.0 Download Personal Edition for i386 Linux > * CRUX 0.9.3 for i386 > * Debian Official "woody" 3.0r0 for i386 (7 disks) > * Debian "woody" 3.0 w/Progeny Graphical Installer for i386 > * Debian Official "potato" 2.2r3 for PPC (1 disk) and SPARC (3 disks) > * Debian Official "woody" 3.0r0 for DEC Alpha (7 disks) > * Debian Unofficial "woody" pre-3.0 2001-12-27 netinst for i386 and PPC > * DemoLinux 3.0 for i386 > * EasyLinux 1.2 for i386 (2 disks) > * FreeBSD 4.6.1rc2 "stable" for i386 > * FreeBSD 5.0 "current" 2001-08 snapshot (6 disks) for i386 > * Gentoo Linux 1.2 for i686 > * Knoppix 3.1 for i386 > * Libranet 2.0 "essentials disk" for i386 > * Linuxcare Bootable Toolbox 2.0 for i386 > * Linux-Mandrake 8.2 (3 disks) for i586 > * LinuxPPC "2000 / MacWorld CD" for PPC > * LNX-BBC 1.618 for i386 > * Lunar Linux 20020503 for i386 > * Lycoris Desktop/LX build 44 (3 disks) for i386 > * MkLinux pre-R1 (2nd image) for PPC > * Microsoft NetShow 2.00 build 2.51 for i386 Linux > * NetBSD 1.5.2 for alpha, i386, macppc, pmax, sparc, vax, sparc64, sun3. > * NetBSD 1.5.2 for amiga, arc, arm32, atari, cobalt, hp300, hpcmips, > mac68k, mvme68k, news68k, next68k, pc532 > * OpenBSD 3.0 (3 disks) for i386 > * OpenOffice.org 1.0.0 for i386 Linux and pre-6.0 alpha build 641c > for PPC Linux > * Progeny 1.0 (2 disks) for i386 > * Red Hat 7.3 (3 disks) and 7.1 & 7.2 (2 disks each) for i386 > * Simply GNUStep Stage 2 pre1 for i386 > * Slackware 8.1 for i386 > * Stampede Linux 0.90 beta "happy valley" for i586 > * Storm Linux 2.0.6 for i386 > * Sorcerer GNU Linux 2002-05-17 for i386 > * Source Mage 20020323 and 20020527beta for i386 > * Sun Star Office 5.2 for i386 Linux > * SuSE Linux "evaluation" 7.0 for i386, 6.3 for PPC > * SuSE Linux "live evaluation" (demo disk) 8.0 for i386 > * Turbo Linux Server 8.0 "viper" (2 disks) for i386 > * Turbo Linux Workstation (English) 6.1 for i386 > * Vermillion 7.1.1 (2 disks) and 6.2.4 for i386 > * Yellow Dog 2.3 for PPC > >I'll even have a CDR burner. Be sure to bring lots of blanks. > >(If the above seems a little cranky, then understand that coming onto a >mailing list full of a mixed *BSD / Linux / proprietary-Unix users and >asking "What's the best Unix?" is difficult to distinguish from posting >flamebait.) > > > From jan at caustic.org Mon Aug 12 23:54:42 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <3D58AB1E.9020004@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020812235132.Y45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) wrote: > Umm.. I can't make the install fest as I live in San Diego. long way away, for a Berkeley Unix User Group mailing list. but, if you're looking for unix help over the net, this doesn't hurt. > What do you do at an installfest? much like what it sounds like, really. install a bunch of machines, help newbies out, and enjoy the afternoon in geek heaven. > I've got a DvD-RW (HP's) and lotsa blanks (err... I think I'm running > out, time to go to Fry's)... I've got a 2.2 megabit connection (down) > and I can download everything. useful, that. if you have the hardware to spare, install a bunch of different OSs, to find what you like best. > What exactly is an installfest? I'm very interested now. i think i covered it well enough above. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Aug 12 23:57:22 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:57:22 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <3D58AB1E.9020004@thetechbox.com> References: <3D5897A2.4090701@thetechbox.com> <20020813054833.GU25331@linuxmafia.com> <3D58A1FB.6020002@thetechbox.com> <20020813061758.GW25331@linuxmafia.com> <3D58AB1E.9020004@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020813065722.GC25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) (bonkers at thetechbox.com): > Umm.. I can't make the install fest as I live in San Diego. What do you > do at an installfest? Here you go: http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/installfest/ We sit around and bullshit. We occasionally help somebody install something, and/or help solve technical problems. Or play with something really nice that someone has brought or is working on. Or all of the above. In years past, at least half the aim of an installfest was to alert a surprised-as-hell general computing public to the fact that free-as-in-speech *ix variants are alive and extremely prosperous. There's a great deal less need for that, in 2002, when this is no longer news to people. These days, installfests continue to the extent that people find them to be enough fun to justify the logistical and other headaches. When the headaches start to increase (which might include people expecting heroic measures to get them copies of CD images), we act to reduce them. ;-> -- This message falsely claims to have been scanned for viruses with F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange and to have been found clean. From jan at caustic.org Mon Aug 12 23:57:58 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <20020813063417.GZ25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020812235457.O45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > Of course. At any CABAL meeting, 2nd and 4th Saturdays, 4PM to > whenever, Menlo Park. http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/ not sure if i can make that, really. i'd have a higher chance of making a BUUG meeting, since i tend to be in berkeley often enough. thanks though, i'll gladly trade you a blank for a copy given half a chance (or, if you can point me to where i can download darwin, i'll gladly do that). -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From bonkers at thetechbox.com Tue Aug 13 00:01:38 2002 From: bonkers at thetechbox.com (Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman)) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:01:38 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? Message-ID: <3D58AED2.6010804@thetechbox.com> I've been getting 2 emails for every email. Like, I get 2 emails that have, word for word, the same exact thing. I don't know why. I think that maybe I'm recieving an HTML version and a plain-text version... is that correct? ~Matt Bockman From jan at caustic.org Tue Aug 13 00:04:16 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <3D58AED2.6010804@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020813000349.O45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) wrote: > I've been getting 2 emails for every email. Like, I get 2 emails that > have, word for word, the same exact thing. I don't know why. I think > that maybe I'm recieving an HTML version and a plain-text version... is > that correct? you're getting the version to you, and the version that's too the mailing list. look at your headers for a better idea of what's going on. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From bonkers at thetechbox.com Tue Aug 13 00:16:13 2002 From: bonkers at thetechbox.com (Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman)) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:16:13 -0700 Subject: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) Message-ID: <3D58B23D.6090708@thetechbox.com> Okay, I've had quite a bit of discussion in the past few hours, yet I don't think I've introduced myself. My name is Matt Bockman and I run a Mandrake Linux server. It runs Apache for its web server, and Qmail for its email server. I've been into computers since the summer between the 5th and 6th grade, when I went to a computer camp and they taught me how to make a web page. Since then I've learned a lot about computers, and I've _started_ picking up C/C++ and I'm learning a lot. I love Linux for my server, but I mainly use Windows on my main machine because a) I could never get a Windows emulator to work for Linux, and b) I play lots of games and stuff. I do duel boot, and I use Gentoo Linux for my Linux distro on my main machine. I won't go into the detail of my machines. I've got a main computer, a test-server (built from spare parts), and my regular server. My regular server also acts as a NAT server, because I share my cable modem with my sister. My dad funds me in my computer stuff, because he really wants me to learn it, and I'm interested. Other things that you might want to know about me: I'll be playing hockey for my Freshman year at RB Highschool. I'll most likely be playing goalie for the Junior Varsity team. I'm 14 years old, yay. I met this wonderful angel named Janelle. She's my girlfriend. If you wanna see a picture of us go here: http://www.thetechbox.com/beautiful.htm She's my angel from heaven, and she's the most wonderful girl that I've ever met. I run a website that has a really bad design. I've developed 8 designs since this design for the site, all better then the current, but none worth the time to change it. When I come up with something nice I'll change it... My website is www.thetechbox.com and I host it off my own cable modem. I run a BBS for my friends and I, feel free to post there. Its http://www.thetechbox.com/bbs/... If you're wondering why it has near no posts, its because its pretty new. Thats me in a nutshell. ~Matt Bockman From rick at linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 13 00:23:08 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:23:08 -0700 Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <20020812235457.O45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <20020813063417.GZ25331@linuxmafia.com> <20020812235457.O45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20020813072308.GD25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting f.johan.beisser (jan at caustic.org): > thanks though, i'll gladly trade you a blank for a copy given half a > chance (or, if you can point me to where i can download darwin, i'll > gladly do that). Apple's really rather obnoxious about that. For something allegedly open source, you're really made to go through the Cupertino Inquisition, just to get a copy. They want you to "register" for a "developer ID" before they'll send the ISO image. But you can use username=cipherpunks, password=cipherpunks, and the current x86 and PPC ISOs are at http://www.opensource.apple.com/projects/darwin/1.4/release/ What's really quite creepy is that you probably (if your luck is like mine) won't have any luck finding copies of the ISO elsewhere. God Forbid that they would just list it in a truly public, browseable directory, like other freenixes. Ah, finally: By searching on the exact filenames, I've found some third-party locations: http://ftp.mobikom.com/OperSys/UNIX/Darwin/ http://hisham.cc/files/apps/ http://custom.lab.unb.br/pub/os/darwin/cd/x86/ 230 MB, when gzipped; 240 MB, plain. Caveats: (1) Darwin-x86 has _really_ narrow hardware support. I've tried and tried and tried, and can't seem to ever successfully complete installation. Methinks the sole purpose of this port is to prove lack of endian-ness problems in the source code, and that the only x86 box it will _actually_ install on is one in some dark Cupertino basement. (2) Installing Darwin is really a slightly perverse (if possibly entertaining) thing to do. Why? Because to make it useful at all, you'll need to also go get the XFree86 port for Darwin, available only separately. After that plus probably a lot of other updating work, you'll have a decidedly funky BSD variant that's kinda-sorta like NetBSD, except based (by default) around a bizarre RPC-based directory service called NetInfo. And it'll be really rather slow compared to NetBSD. And exist in a compatibility island all its own. The PowerPC variant: http://www.futuretg.com/ftp.futuretg.com/mirrors/iso/10_macosx/ http://volker.preil.bei.t-online.de/soft/html/darwin.html (251 MB, and one source claims that it's not actually gzipped) -- Cheers, "Not only does the English language borrow from other languages, Rick Moen it sometimes chases them through dark alleys, hits them over the rick at linuxmafia.com head, and goes through their pockets." -- Eddy Peter From rick at linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 13 00:30:51 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:30:51 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <3D58AED2.6010804@thetechbox.com> References: <3D58AED2.6010804@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020813073051.GF25331@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) (bonkers at thetechbox.com): > I've been getting 2 emails for every email. Like, I get 2 emails that > have, word for word, the same exact thing. I don't know why. I think > that maybe I'm recieving an HTML version and a plain-text version... is > that correct? Augh. I hope we're not going to launch the dreaded Reply-To flamewar. http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#replyto From jan at caustic.org Tue Aug 13 00:34:55 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Hello, I'm new. In-Reply-To: <20020813072308.GD25331@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020813002729.U45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > Apple's really rather obnoxious about that. For something allegedly > open source, you're really made to go through the Cupertino Inquisition, > just to get a copy. They want you to "register" for a "developer ID" > before they'll send the ISO image. But you can use > username=cipherpunks, password=cipherpunks, and the current x86 and PPC > ISOs are at http://www.opensource.apple.com/projects/darwin/1.4/release/ somehow, i'm not surprised. i may have access to a PPC box to test it out on, although i'll probably stick with OpenBSD/PPC or MacOS-X for that kind of hardware. > http://ftp.mobikom.com/OperSys/UNIX/Darwin/ > http://hisham.cc/files/apps/ > http://custom.lab.unb.br/pub/os/darwin/cd/x86/ > 230 MB, when gzipped; 240 MB, plain. tiny, really. thanks for the list, i'll mirror it tomorrow or so. > Caveats: > > (1) Darwin-x86 has _really_ narrow hardware support. I've tried and > tried and tried, and can't seem to ever successfully complete > installation. Methinks the sole purpose of this port is to prove lack > of endian-ness problems in the source code, and that the only x86 box it > will _actually_ install on is one in some dark Cupertino basement. duly noted. i'll go through the formalities, and install it on PPC at some point. somehow i assume you're right on the hidden x86 box in the deepest darkest corners of Apple. maybe i'll pester folk i know at apple for information on their sole x86 box. > (2) Installing Darwin is really a slightly perverse (if possibly > entertaining) thing to do. Why? Because to make it useful at all, > you'll need to also go get the XFree86 port for Darwin, available only > separately. After that plus probably a lot of other updating work, > you'll have a decidedly funky BSD variant that's kinda-sorta like > NetBSD, except based (by default) around a bizarre RPC-based directory > service called NetInfo. And it'll be really rather slow compared to > NetBSD. And exist in a compatibility island all its own. odd. i'm thinking of just using it for experimentation purposes, and just for trying out. > The PowerPC variant: > > http://www.futuretg.com/ftp.futuretg.com/mirrors/iso/10_macosx/ > http://volker.preil.bei.t-online.de/soft/html/darwin.html > (251 MB, and one source claims that it's not actually gzipped) gracias, sir. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From itz at speakeasy.org Tue Aug 13 08:20:53 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 13 Aug 2002 08:20:53 -0700 Subject: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) In-Reply-To: <3D58B23D.6090708@thetechbox.com> References: <3D58B23D.6090708@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <868z3alr8q.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Bonkers> Since then I've learned a lot about computers, and I've Bonkers> _started_ picking up C/C++ and I'm learning a lot. Not trying to play boss, learn what you enjoy, but to me this is sad. People of your generation _really_ should start by learning a better language. Ocaml is free (beerwise _and_ speechwise), available for all common platforms (including Windows and Mac), and has a book written about it: http://caml.inria.fr/oreilly-book/ It should be in print any moment, but the online version is available now. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From sobolak at myrealbox.com Tue Aug 13 08:41:13 2002 From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:41:13 -0500 Subject: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) Message-ID: <1029253273.c89ff940sobolak@myrealbox.com> Ian wrote: >Not trying to play boss, learn what you enjoy, but to me this is sad. >People of your generation _really_ should start by learning a better >language. >Ocaml is free (beerwise _and_ speechwise), available for all common >platforms (including Windows and Mac), and has a book written about it: Start by learning a functional programming lanugage? What would be your argument for that as opposed to something more mainstream, say Python? brian -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. _______________________________________________ Buug mailing list Buug at weak.org http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ sobolak at myrealbox.com From ms at formulae.org Tue Aug 13 08:49:22 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:49:22 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <3D58AED2.6010804@thetechbox.com> References: <3D58AED2.6010804@thetechbox.com> Message-ID: <20020813084922.A10533@formulae.org> Here is a little trick that sometimes works to filter dupes with procmail and formail. If so put this in your .procmailrc :0 Wh: $HOME/.mutt/misc/msgid.cache$LOCKEXT | formail -D 8192 $HOME/.mutt/misc/msgid.cache the directory $HOME/.mutt/misc/ needs to be changed or created of course. On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 12:01:38AM -0700, Bonkers the Evil Admin (Matt Bockman) wrote: > I've been getting 2 emails for every email. Like, I get 2 emails that > have, word for word, the same exact thing. I don't know why. I think > that maybe I'm recieving an HTML version and a plain-text version... is > that correct? > > ~Matt Bockman > ms- From itz at speakeasy.org Tue Aug 13 09:43:16 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 13 Aug 2002 09:43:16 -0700 Subject: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) In-Reply-To: <1029253273.c89ff940sobolak@myrealbox.com> References: <1029253273.c89ff940sobolak@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <86znvqk8uz.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> itz> Not trying to play boss, learn what you enjoy, but to me this is itz> sad. People of your generation _really_ should start by learning itz> a better language. itz> Ocaml is free (beerwise _and_ speechwise), available for all itz> common platforms (including Windows and Mac), and has a book itz> written about it: Brian> Start by learning a functional programming lanugage? I would certainly not be the first to propose that. "Structure and implementation of computer languages" which is widely used in CS101 courses is based on Scheme. Brian> What would be your argument for that as opposed to something Brian> more mainstream, say Python? Type safety. You don't have to use ocaml as a functional language; it has a full imperative subset. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From itz at speakeasy.org Tue Aug 13 09:47:07 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 13 Aug 2002 09:47:07 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <20020813084922.A10533@formulae.org> References: <3D58AED2.6010804@thetechbox.com> <20020813084922.A10533@formulae.org> Message-ID: <86vg6ek8ok.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Michael> Here is a little trick that sometimes works to filter dupes Michael> with procmail and formail. If so put this in your .procmailrc Michael> :0 Wh: $HOME/.mutt/misc/msgid.cache$LOCKEXT | formail -D 8192 Michael> $HOME/.mutt/misc/msgid.cache Michael> the directory $HOME/.mutt/misc/ needs to be changed or Michael> created of course. Gnus (the Emacs mailreader) can also do this for you, and it is easier to set up than editing Procmail recipes. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From atporter at primate.net Tue Aug 13 09:50:27 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:50:27 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <86vg6ek8ok.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> References: <3D58AED2.6010804@thetechbox.com> <20020813084922.A10533@formulae.org> <86vg6ek8ok.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20020813165027.GG30847@primate.net> On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 09:47:07AM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote: > Gnus (the Emacs mailreader) can also do this for you, and it is easier > to set up than editing Procmail recipes. Oh geez, this thread starts with Linux vs BSD and now we're getting into Emacs! Are we trying to cover all the standard jihad in one fell swoop? From rick at linuxmafia.com Tue Aug 13 10:03:21 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:03:21 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <20020813165027.GG30847@primate.net> References: <3D58AED2.6010804@thetechbox.com> <20020813084922.A10533@formulae.org> <86vg6ek8ok.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <20020813165027.GG30847@primate.net> Message-ID: <20020813170321.GC4484@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Aaron T Porter (atporter at primate.net): > Oh geez, this thread starts with Linux vs BSD and now we're getting > into Emacs! Are we trying to cover all the standard jihads in one > fell swoop? init=/usr/bin/emacs, man. -- Cheers, Rick Moen Emacs is a decent operating system, rick at linuxmafia.com but it still lacks a good text editor. From itz at speakeasy.org Tue Aug 13 10:04:03 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 13 Aug 2002 10:04:03 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <20020813165027.GG30847@primate.net> References: <3D58AED2.6010804@thetechbox.com> <20020813084922.A10533@formulae.org> <86vg6ek8ok.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <20020813165027.GG30847@primate.net> Message-ID: <86r8h2k7wc.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> itz> Gnus (the Emacs mailreader) can also do this for you, and it is itz> easier to set up than editing Procmail recipes. Aaron> Oh geez, this thread starts with Linux vs BSD and now we're Aaron> getting into Emacs! Are we trying to cover all the standard Aaron> jihad in one fell swoop? This is a different thread, you're not paying attention :-) Anyway, I don't want a jihad at all - just getting the information out there. Everybody please use what you're comfortable with. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From sobolak at myrealbox.com Tue Aug 13 10:17:19 2002 From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:17:19 -0500 Subject: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) Message-ID: <1029259039.c82c28e0sobolak@myrealbox.com> Jason wrote: >I might argue that it's good to get C out of the way early, as it's >still very handy to know. I would imagine myself having difficulting >going back and learning C after delving into languages like ruby. >However, I'm still very glad I know it as it comes in handy quite a >bit. I'd agree. I think it's important to know C, even if you don't like it. Since most operating systems are based on it, concepts from C are just too fundamental to consistently be ignorant of. brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ sobolak at myrealbox.com From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Tue Aug 13 10:51:18 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) In-Reply-To: <1029259039.c82c28e0sobolak@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20020813175118.2547.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> > Jason wrote: > >I might argue that it's good to get C out of the > way early, as it's > >still very handy to know Whether you learn it now, or learn it later isn't the issue. The issue is since EVERYTHING out there is based on or related to C in at least some small way, life is much easier AFTER you learn it. Besides that, isn't there evolution going on? So even if someone invents a totally new computer platform/language, that person knew C and thus the new platform/language is evolved from C? To sum it up: skipping C is like skipping a year of Trigonometry. Sure, you'll get by in Calc...but not as well as if you'd learned Trig. My god, we're talking about a young man's future here...this isn't a video game! Matt from San Diego--learn C while you still have the chance!! (sounds of gunfire) AAAArrrrgg!!! Bob ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From jan at caustic.org Tue Aug 13 11:06:25 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <20020813170321.GC4484@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020813110142.V45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > init=/usr/bin/emacs, man. ftp://ftp.splode.com/pub/users/friedman/images/emacs-bigger-than-space.jpg [jan at hi i386] {83}$ grep jn /etc/passwd jn:*:3061:3061:jonah naugh:/home/jn:/usr/local/bin/emacs -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From jan at caustic.org Tue Aug 13 11:08:45 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <20020813165027.GG30847@primate.net> Message-ID: <20020813110632.S45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Aaron T Porter wrote: > Oh geez, this thread starts with Linux vs BSD and now we're > getting into Emacs! Are we trying to cover all the standard jihad in one > fell swoop? emacs, vi, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, Linux, GNU/Linux, bash, zsh, tcsh, ksh, C, C++, perl, python, bourne.. hold on, there's more.. uh.. right. nevermind. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From jdicioccio at epylon.com Tue Aug 13 10:13:07 2002 From: jdicioccio at epylon.com (DiCioccio, Jason) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:13:07 -0700 Subject: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) Message-ID: <657B20E93E93D4118F9700D0B73CE3EA02FFF670@goofy.epylon.lan> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Sobolak [mailto:sobolak at myrealbox.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 8:41 AM > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: Re: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) > > Ian wrote: > >Not trying to play boss, learn what you enjoy, but to me this is > >sad. People of your generation _really_ should start by learning a > >better language. > > >Ocaml is free (beerwise _and_ speechwise), available for all common > >platforms (including Windows and Mac), and has a book > written about it: > > Start by learning a functional programming lanugage? What > would be your argument for that as opposed to something more > mainstream, say Python? Once you learn a good OO language (or even an somewhat inconsistent one like Python), you'll probably not willingly learn C/C++ ;-).. I personally find C quite painful now. The most C I do now is attempting to provide ruby wrappers around C libraries. At least Ruby's C API makes it more tolerable. I might argue that it's good to get C out of the way early, as it's still very handy to know. I would imagine myself having difficulting going back and learning C after delving into languages like ruby. However, I'm still very glad I know it as it comes in handy quite a bit. Although I have enjoyed Cocoa (which is Objective-C) :) Cheers, - -JD- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPVk+WDKUHizV76d/EQKN+ACgrLvJS9ClBsetcci4glkoWzyEAJUAoOtu CNlH+Sys+kG1FP8kTfzvNz34 =GuD1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jammer at weak.org Tue Aug 13 11:30:05 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:30:05 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <20020813110632.S45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <20020813165027.GG30847@primate.net> <20020813110632.S45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20020813183005.GB22363@weak.org> On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 11:08:45AM -0700, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Aaron T Porter wrote: > > Oh geez, this thread starts with Linux vs BSD and now we're > > getting into Emacs! Are we trying to cover all the standard jihad in one > > fell swoop? > > emacs, vi, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, Linux, GNU/Linux, bash, zsh, tcsh, > ksh, C, C++, perl, python, bourne.. > > hold on, there's more.. uh.. Prolog, forth, modula-42 (look at cvsup someday :), microkernels, Java, C# (shudder), Visual Basic (twitch), Intel, Apple, Motorola... I could go on forever. :) But seriously, as far as learning programming languages goes, it's a wide open field. At this point, you probably don't know what you want to be doing with programming languages, you just find them cool. I'd say learn C (or learn C++, but ignore all the fru-fru crap, like templates and shit like that). Learn C because it'll provide you a good foundation on which to build on. Once you've got a solid handle on C, branch out to other things. Learn a scripting language (Perl, Python, etc). Learn an OO language, but do it to learn about OO, not to learn about that language. A programming language is a toolkit, not a dogma. Good software engineers know this, and know enough about the various languages to understand their limitations, and to know what tasks are best implemented in which kind of language. My last piece of advice is to pick up a data structures book, in whatever language you're going to start out with. Learn about data structures, and what they're used for. You may change your preferred programming language dozens of times, but you will still make use of a good understanding of data structures. -Jon From itz at speakeasy.org Tue Aug 13 11:42:07 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 13 Aug 2002 11:42:07 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <20020813183005.GB22363@weak.org> References: <20020813165027.GG30847@primate.net> <20020813110632.S45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <20020813183005.GB22363@weak.org> Message-ID: <86it2ek3cw.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Jon> My last piece of advice is to pick up a data structures book, in Jon> whatever language you're going to start out with. Learn about Jon> data structures, and what they're used for. You may change your Jon> preferred programming language dozens of times, but you will Jon> still make use of a good understanding of data structures. I definitely agree with that, but I also think you're making my point just a little bit. A data structure book with C as the implementation language, with equivalent coverage, is going to be about 5 times thicker (just an unscientific guess) than one based on any of the other languages discussed. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From mjh at icir.org Tue Aug 13 12:00:50 2002 From: mjh at icir.org (Mark Handley) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:00:50 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:30:05 PDT." <20020813183005.GB22363@weak.org> Message-ID: <80508.1029265250@aardvark.icir.org> >But seriously, as far as learning programming languages goes, it's a >wide open field. At this point, you probably don't know what you want to >be doing with programming languages, you just find them cool. I'd say >learn C (or learn C++, but ignore all the fru-fru crap, like templates >and shit like that). Learn C because it'll provide you a good foundation >on which to build on. I guess it depends how much time you've got, and what you want to do. - If you want to learn how to think about problems, then I can't recommend strongly enough learning a functional language. Haskell (www.haskell.org) might be a decent choice, but there are plenty of others to choose from. This isn't likely to be a serious practical skill you can sell, but what you learn about how to think will stay with you when you're hacking C later. - You should learn an Object Oriented language. C++ or Java are both practical languages to learn, although C++ is pretty crufty in many ways. OO is also a way of thinking about problems, although perhaps more tied to syntax than functional language thinking is. - You should learn a scripting language. Personally I prefer Python over Perl, but this is a religious thing. You need decent scripting skills for so many things. I've lost track of the number of languages I've programmed in over the years - probably around 30 or so. The vast majority of my work has been in C and C++ - I've written about 50K lines of C++ in the last year. But in an ideal world, I definitely wouldn't start with C (you'll learn too many bad habits), and C++ is too crufty to make a good starting point (the learning curve is pretty steep), although it's really good for developing large systems once you've got more experience. You'll end up programming in C at some stage anyway, but try to avoid starting there if you have a choice - you'll spend all your time thinking about why it core-dumped, rather than about the higher level concepts of the problem you were trying to solve. Cheers, Mark From cmsclaud at arches.uga.edu Tue Aug 13 12:27:01 2002 From: cmsclaud at arches.uga.edu (Claude Rubinson) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: <80508.1029265250@aardvark.icir.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Mark Handley wrote: > I guess it depends how much time you've got, and what you want to do. - snip - > I've lost track of the number of languages I've programmed in over the > years - probably around 30 or so. The vast majority of my work has > been in C and C++ - I've written about 50K lines of C++ in the last > year. But in an ideal world, I definitely wouldn't start with C > (you'll learn too many bad habits), and C++ is too crufty to make a > good starting point (the learning curve is pretty steep), although > it's really good for developing large systems once you've got more > experience. You'll end up programming in C at some stage anyway, but > try to avoid starting there if you have a choice - you'll spend all > your time thinking about why it core-dumped, rather than about the > higher level concepts of the problem you were trying to solve. I'm wondering if age should factor into the decision as well. Is C really appropriate as an introduction to programming for a 14-year old? My younger brother is that age and I can't imagine him having the attention span to learn C. Wouldn't something like Python allow someone that age get something of substance up and running more quickly? If he decides that he actually likes programming, he can always go back and learn the fundamentals later. Claude From mjh at icir.org Tue Aug 13 12:45:57 2002 From: mjh at icir.org (Mark Handley) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:45:57 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:27:01 EDT." Message-ID: <81065.1029267957@aardvark.icir.org> > >I'm wondering if age should factor into the decision as well. Is C really >appropriate as an introduction to programming for a 14-year old? My >younger brother is that age and I can't imagine him having the attention >span to learn C. Wouldn't something like Python allow someone that age >get something of substance up and running more quickly? If he decides >that he actually likes programming, he can always go back and learn the >fundamentals later. Yes, Python is perhaps a good combination of usefulness and assistance with your coding for someone starting out. I don't think anyone should *start* with C, whatever their age. Don't get me wrong - I've programmed plenty of C, and it certainly has it's uses, but it's a really bad place to start. I started out programming in Basic, then Forth, Z80 machine code, PDP-11 machine code, Pascal, Occam, and C++. By the time I learned C++ I'd got so many bad habits, I couldn't see the point of Object Orientation, and rapidly degraded back to C. Then I learned Scheme and Prolog, and it was only then I started to learn to think about the problem, not about the implementation, but it took a while for this to really sink in. When I learned Miranda (another functional language), it was like a revelation. One day I decided to write a natural language parser for the hell of it. Suddenly I was really thinking about the problem. Of course I never finished my natural language parser - I eventually realised I didn't understand enough about natural language, but for perhaps the first time the programming language hadn't got in the way. I spent the next ten years programming in C, Postscript (yes, it is a language), Perl (before it was OO), and Tcl, amongst assorted others. None of them are really good languages, but the lessons learned from non-procedural languages about structuring a problem are always applicable in any language. Finally I've spent the last few years mostly programming in C++. I still battle the syntax occasionally (who doesn't), but I've definitely become an OO fan. Only 15 years since I first learned the language. I guess it took that long to lose all the bad lessons I'd learned when I started out 20 years ago. Cheers, Mark From jdicioccio at epylon.com Tue Aug 13 13:41:37 2002 From: jdicioccio at epylon.com (DiCioccio, Jason) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:41:37 -0700 Subject: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? Message-ID: <657B20E93E93D4118F9700D0B73CE3EA02FFF676@goofy.epylon.lan> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Handley [mailto:mjh at icir.org] > Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:46 PM > To: Claude Rubinson > Cc: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? > > > > Yes, Python is perhaps a good combination of usefulness and > assistance with your coding for someone starting out. I don't think > anyone should *start* with C, whatever their age. Don't get me wrong > - I've > programmed plenty of C, and it certainly has it's uses, but it's a > really bad place to start. I'll throw in my ruby recommendation then too.. It's a great language to get started with OO. It's *very* consistent. This is one of the things that has bothered me about python when working with Zope (I love zope ;)).. For example, why would you 'join' a list from the string class? Why is len() not a method for each respective class (e.g. string#len, list#len, etc)? Why do you have to use 'self.' to call your own methods? Some of this is in the FAQ, but it's just not very consistent OO design.. All that said, I still enjoy python -- mainly because of Zope (did I mention that I like Zope?).. However I run into these strange things every now and then, where as with ruby, there are no surprises :).. Has anyone else had any experience with it, or am I the only ruby programmer on this list? :) Cheers, - -JD- (jd at ruby-lang.org ;-)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPVlvNzKUHizV76d/EQJhsACg+83GPE/iFa1nTszRMyRgkUWVmxoAn1eE 2IhA264+9qDNXVA275lPKk25 =rUP8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sobolak at myrealbox.com Tue Aug 13 14:04:02 2002 From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 16:04:02 -0500 Subject: Language discussion (was Re: RE: [buug] I've been getting 2 of Everything, why? ) Message-ID: <1029272642.c7401bc0sobolak@myrealbox.com> Jason wrote: > Has anyone else had any experience with it, or am I > the only ruby programmer on this list? :) Negative. I played with Ruby a few years ago to get a taste for it. You're right that it's very OO, and of course the regex support is good too. I was impressed how operating system concepts - files, sockets, directories - were represented as objects in the base implementation. I think picking the right first language is important. In a similar way that English influences how I think about the world, the first language I learned (a proprietary 4GL, now extinct) still influences how I think about programming. Not dominates, but influences. And if you start with COBOL or Visual Basic, I think it permanently influences how you view the problem. Finally, I agree with Jon - a language is just a tool. Learn a lot of them, use them for what you need. Unless it's Java. Which of course, is a gospel and the truth and the light. (Have I ever ranted about how I feel that the Java tools market was the single biggest waste of wealth in software history?) brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ sobolak at myrealbox.com From amcgee at freeshell.org Tue Aug 13 16:40:31 2002 From: amcgee at freeshell.org (Art McGee) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 23:40:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) In-Reply-To: <20020813193004.26720.11989.Mailman@weak.org> Message-ID: > Not trying to play boss, learn what you enjoy, but to me > this is sad. People of your generation _really_ should > start by learning a better language. > > Ocaml is free (beerwise _and_ speechwise), available for > all common platforms (including Windows and Mac), and has > a book written about it: No, let's really mess his mind up. How about PL/1 or ALGOL? Heck, I still miss interpreted BASIC and GOTO statements. No, on second thought, FORTRAN, APL, or Modula-2 would be better suited for today's modern programmer. %-| Art From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Wed Aug 14 13:54:57 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Can I share your internet connection and office space? (Berkeley area) Message-ID: <20020814205457.33443.qmail@web13805.mail.yahoo.com> Hello BUUG, I may be working on a project Sep-Dec 2002 for which I'd need the following: 1) fast internet connection (DSL on up) 2) my own static internet IP (I would bring in my own linux or BSD box for this IP and put it on your existing network...this box would be used for IPSec or ssh tunneling to another host on the internet) 3) office space...just a desk to put my laptop on, really, nothing more...and I would be the only one using it. If there's anyone out there who has 2 or more of these resources to spare, maybe we can arrange something, like a monthly "rental" agreement. I should be at the next BUUG meeting (at least for a little while) if you want to meet me. Later, Bob ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Wed Aug 14 16:00:53 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] advice for incorporating...help!! Message-ID: <20020814230053.49988.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Hello again, I'm also going to incorporate this month. I'm probably going to go with a California "C" Corporation. Any advice out there from those who have gone before me? I need to choose a name, register with the state, get state/federal EIN, draft bylaws, print stationary, open a new bank account, etc, etc. Specifically, I'd like to know which tasks I can do myself, and which (if any) should be outsourced to a lawyer or firm. Any good HowTos on the net? Horror Stories? Thanks, Bob ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From atporter at primate.net Wed Aug 14 16:03:59 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:03:59 -0700 Subject: [buug] advice for incorporating...help!! In-Reply-To: <20020814230053.49988.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020814230053.49988.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020814230359.GB26133@primate.net> Spend some cash over at NoLo, you'll be a happy camper. On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 04:00:53PM -0700, Bob Read wrote: > Hello again, > I'm also going to incorporate this month. > I'm probably going to go with a California "C" > Corporation. > Any advice out there from those who have gone > before me? > I need to choose a name, register with the state, > get state/federal EIN, draft bylaws, print stationary, > open a new bank account, etc, etc. > Specifically, I'd like to know which tasks I can do > myself, and which (if any) should be outsourced to a > lawyer or firm. > Any good HowTos on the net? Horror Stories? From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Thu Aug 15 13:44:24 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] links to sites for forming your own corporation Message-ID: <20020815204424.19882.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> (sound of crickets chirping) Ummm...only 1 person replied to my posts about starting up your own corporation, yet this is a HUGE topic in our industry, what with the crackdown on Independent Contracting and all... I suppose everyone either a) is a business entity owner but not willing to share info on this list, b) is not a business entity owner, or c) would reply, but hasn't....in anycase, I'm still on my own. I would still appreciate any advice from anyone who may be lurking on this topic! Thank God for the net. Here's some info you guys might be able to use should you ever do the same: Aaron T. Porter sent me NoLo...it rules for legal definitions, but starting a business is really much more than just legal stuff: http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/article.cfm/objectID/A30CE890-BBAA-4B8A-AD66A33FA038988B This comparison cuts through all the bullshit of S Corp vs. LLC (I just hope it's trustworthy advice): http://www.nvinc.com/CaliforniaLLC.htm One of the better sites describing business entities in general (they also will file the papers for you): http://www.activefilings.com/states/california.htm A plethora of advice...great site: http://business-law.freeadvice.com/corporations/ These guys promise to do it all for you for a couple of hundred dollars (sounds like a good deal...maybe too good?): http://www.incorporatetime.com/LLCfee.htm ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From atporter at primate.net Thu Aug 15 15:30:23 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:30:23 -0700 Subject: [buug] links to sites for forming your own corporation In-Reply-To: <20020815204424.19882.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020815204424.19882.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020815223023.GE22603@primate.net> On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 01:44:24PM -0700, Bob Read wrote: > Aaron T. Porter sent me NoLo...it rules for legal > definitions, but starting a business is really much > more than just legal stuff: > > http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/article.cfm/objectID/A30CE890-BBAA-4B8A-AD66A33FA038988B I was thinking more of some of their books... the small business track with titles like "Small Business Startup Kit - California" http://www.nolo.com/lawstore/products/allCatProducts.cfm/catID/34ECCFD8-192F-48BF-A243449A2AADBBC6 From thecow91 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 15 20:42:18 2002 From: thecow91 at yahoo.com (Michael Mulvihill) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems Installing freeBSD 4.6 Message-ID: <20020816034218.57793.qmail@web11202.mail.yahoo.com> I booted from my CD-ROM and it boots to the Kernel Configuration Menu. I selected the visual mode and went through the configuration steps. The Device Configuration VI went fine. Had to disable some drivers for some devices that I didnt have. Then selected the standard installation. Went to the Fdisk VI and I selected the entire disk and marked the slice as bootable. Went to the Disklabel Editor and selected the automatic option. Selected the "All system sources" to install from the CD-ROM. This is where everything goes downhill. It stops with the following error "Write Failure on transfer!" "Unable to transfer the bin distribution from acdoc." I used the ATL+F1 to display the errors and it stated: /stand/gunzip: : invalid block type /stand/cpio: premature end of life I'm new to this all and I'm lost. Any help would be great. Thanks! --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atporter at primate.net Thu Aug 15 20:57:23 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:57:23 -0700 Subject: [buug] PDA Link from the meeting Message-ID: <20020816035723.GF22603@primate.net> The sexy little handheld is the Sharp Zaurus: http://www.sharp-usa.com/products/TypeLanding/0,1056,112,00.html From sobolak at myrealbox.com Thu Aug 15 21:03:47 2002 From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:03:47 -0500 Subject: [buug] Problems Installing freeBSD 4.6 Message-ID: <1029470627.d4eccb20sobolak@myrealbox.com> I'm not an expert, but I've been through this install a few times, so I'll answer what I can. Michael wrote: >I booted from my CD-ROM and it boots to the Kernel Configuration Menu. Did you download an ISO from freebsd.org or buy it from a vendor? If you downloaded it, did you cksum the disk to make sure that it downloaded correctly? If you used IE, sometimes there are problems with the FTP client completing the download correctly. >I selected the visual mode and went through the configuration steps. The >Device Configuration VI went fine. Had to disable some drivers for >some devices that I didnt have. IIRC, you probably only want to do this for network cards. Most of the other stuff that comes with generic you can safely leave in there. Providing more detail about a) your specific hardware and b) what you disabled would help though. >Then selected the standard >installation. Went to the Fdisk VI and I selected the entire disk and >marked the slice as bootable. Went to the Disklabel Editor and selected the >automatic option. Selected the "All system sources" to install from >the CD-ROM. Are you sure the disk has enough space to load that? Usually it's a good idea to start with a minimal install and add the additional pieces later. > This is where everything goes downhill. It stops with >the following error "Write Failure on >transfer!" "Unable to transfer >the bin distribution from acdoc." I used the ATL+F1 >to display the >errors and it stated: >/stand/gunzip: : invalid block type >/stand/cpio: premature end of life Did you google on these errors? What did you find? You might want to provide some more details about your disk size, hardware config etc. >I'm new to this all and I'm lost. Any help would be great. Thanks! Hope this helps. Keep in mind that this is the Berkeley Unix Users Group (BUUG), not necessarily the BSD support list. While some of us use BSD and might be able to help you, the best place to go with freeBSD problems is either newbies at freebsd.org or questions at freebsd.org. Those mailing lists are setup to help people with questions like yours. brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ sobolak at myrealbox.com From jan at caustic.org Thu Aug 15 21:16:24 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Problems Installing freeBSD 4.6 In-Reply-To: <20020816034218.57793.qmail@web11202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020815205807.K45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Michael Mulvihill wrote: > I booted from my CD-ROM and it boots to the Kernel Configuration Menu. > I selected the visual mode and went through the configuration steps. The > Device Configuration VI went fine. Had to disable some drivers for > some devices that I didnt have. i generally just suggest using only doing this when you really have too. that means, the machine won't boot due to conflicts between devices. > Then selected the standard installation. Went to the Fdisk VI and I > selected the entire disk and marked the slice as bootable. Went to the > Disklabel Editor and selected the automatic option. again, the default options aren't always the best, this holds true in freebsd 4.6 aswell. > Selected the "All system sources" to install from the CD-ROM. which binary distrobution sets did you select? > This is where everything goes downhill. It stops with the following > error "Write Failure on transfer!" "Unable to transfer the bin > distribution from acdoc." I used the ATL+F1 to display the errors and > it stated: > > /stand/gunzip: : invalid block type > /stand/cpio: premature end of life this would indictate two things: one, gunzip failed while attempting to decompress a file; two, the pipe to cpio didn't work because of 1. > I'm new to this all and I'm lost. Any help would be great. Thanks! i'd highly suggest providing more information, and asking on questions at freebsd.org. searching through the archive at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com might yield some useful information. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From hedges at ucsd.edu Fri Aug 16 02:14:58 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 02:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] links to sites for forming your own corporation In-Reply-To: <20020815223023.GE22603@primate.net> Message-ID: But you probably read all this stuff. You can do the whole thing yourself if you have the right forms; you can even buy boiler-plate bylaws. You should do the work yourself as far as you feel comfortable that you understand what you're doing, then hire a paralegal for the rest. Then hire me and teach me stuff. I'd recommend Nolo's notebook, something like "How to start your own California Corporation" that they update every year. It comes with the forms in the smaller kit. Think carefully about your potentials and your expansion plans before you incorporate. The structure you take at different points in the corporate life-cycle affects the possible exit strategies. But we learned from the dumb-ass.com bubble that IPO doesn't mean sustainable, and that most companies will never go IPO and don't need to plan for that as an option. Many people incorporate but then are unwilling to accept what a corporation means when it gets down to sharing control of their ideas. They want the tax and liability benefit, but they don't want to give up the pie or the scepter to the board of directors or have to cope with shared power to stay with the game. Boards can oust founding CEO's. That would be a let-down. Consider the S corporation for smaller groups of shareholder-employees, or an LLC. If you want real tax benefit (for now) and you aren't scrupulous, patriotic, or a progressive Californian, incorporate in Delaware or hire one of these Cayman Islands companies who act as your ghost officers for an anonymous holding company. (I may or may not have worked for a company like that. Then I went back to college and studied ethics etc. Since then I've found that workers who rationally express their conscience annoy most managers to no end. ;-) --mark-- On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Aaron T Porter wrote: > Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:30:23 -0700 > From: Aaron T Porter > To: Bob Read > Cc: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] links to sites for forming your own corporation > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 01:44:24PM -0700, Bob Read wrote: > > Aaron T. Porter sent me NoLo...it rules for legal > > definitions, but starting a business is really much > > more than just legal stuff: > > > > http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/article.cfm/objectID/A30CE890-BBAA-4B8A-AD66A33FA038988B > > I was thinking more of some of their books... the small business > track with titles like "Small Business Startup Kit - California" > > http://www.nolo.com/lawstore/products/allCatProducts.cfm/catID/34ECCFD8-192F-48BF-A243449A2AADBBC6 > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From hedges at ucsd.edu Fri Aug 16 02:17:50 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 02:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] GPL & selling preconfigured machines Message-ID: Will the GPL get in the way of me buying old computers, rigging them with Linux and then selling them as cheap Internet stations? I know I cannot charge on the invoice for the operating system, but can I charge a labor fee for setting it up? How's that work? Thanks for any info... --mark-- From jammer at weak.org Fri Aug 16 07:27:26 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:27:26 -0700 Subject: [buug] GPL & selling preconfigured machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020816142726.GC10124@weak.org> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 02:17:50AM -0700, Mark Hedges wrote: > > Will the GPL get in the way of me buying old computers, rigging > them with Linux and then selling them as cheap Internet stations? > > I know I cannot charge on the invoice for the operating system, > but can I charge a labor fee for setting it up? How's that work? > > Thanks for any info... --mark-- Actually, you're largely incorrect. The GPL posts no stipulations about not being able to charge for GPL-licensed code. Otherwise, how would Red Hat, SuSE, and the like stay in business? The key stipulation of the GPL is that you must make the source code available to whomever you give/sell/lend/etc binaries to. Since you'd be distributing unmodified software, for which source code is already available, you really don't have to worry about that. You can charge $1,000,000 for your specially configured Linux distribution. However, there's nothing stopping someone from grabbing all your upstream sources and cloning it. You can retain copyright on things you create wholly on your own (like any special configuration tools or scripts and the like). There's plenty of documentation on the web about what the ramifications of the GPL (and other open licenses) are. Google is your friend. -Jon From jan at caustic.org Fri Aug 16 07:28:18 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] GPL & selling preconfigured machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020816070723.E45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Mark Hedges wrote: > Will the GPL get in the way of me buying old computers, rigging > them with Linux and then selling them as cheap Internet stations? as long as you provide the source code, somewhere (either for download, or via cdrom) you should be fine. read the GPL (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html) and make sure. it's fairly plain english, and written to be relatively unambiguious. > I know I cannot charge on the invoice for the operating system, > but can I charge a labor fee for setting it up? How's that work? you can charge whatever you want. as long as you provide the source code, binaries, and such to the user you're not in violation of the GPL. if you make any changes to the Linux distrobution (which you're allowed to do) you have to provide those changes and/or hand those changes back to the creator. the GPL is about software, and the rights of a programmer and consumer to it. besides, you're talking about charging for your time, effort and hardware. you have the right to do that, no matter what. > Thanks for any info... --mark-- http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 07:36:41 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:36:41 -0700 Subject: [buug] GPL & selling preconfigured machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020816143641.GA9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Mark Hedges (hedges at ucsd.edu): > Will the GPL get in the way of me buying old computers, rigging > them with Linux and then selling them as cheap Internet stations? > > I know I cannot charge on the invoice for the operating system, > but can I charge a labor fee for setting it up? How's that work? You're imagining a problem where there isn't one. Relevant parts of the GPL follow: Section 1. "...You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee." Section 3. "You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following: a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above." Taken as a whole, these provisions nowhere prevent you from charging on the invoice for the operating system. At most, that would only preclude you from satisfying the obligation of offering source code access under section 3c, leaving you with you choice of the 3a or 3b methods. If you don't want to take my word for this (and the evidence of your own eyes, in reading the GPL text), then you might want to seek confirmation on the Free Software Business mailing list. http://www.crynwr.com/fsb/ -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From sobolak at myrealbox.com Fri Aug 16 10:07:51 2002 From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:07:51 -0500 Subject: [buug] Question: getting ls to only display entries that are directories Message-ID: <1029517671.d45c2300sobolak@myrealbox.com> hi I'm sure this is easy. I'd like to know if there is a native parameter to 'ls' that just displays which entries are themselves directories. I've tried to RTFM, but somehow I just can't grok it. The command I use now is 'ls -al | grep ^d'. Surely there is something better? brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ sobolak at myrealbox.com From jammer at weak.org Fri Aug 16 10:15:28 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:15:28 -0700 Subject: [buug] Question: getting ls to only display entries that are directories In-Reply-To: <1029517671.d45c2300sobolak@myrealbox.com> References: <1029517671.d45c2300sobolak@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20020816171527.GA20464@weak.org> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 12:07:51PM -0500, Brian Sobolak wrote: > > hi > > I'm sure this is easy. > > I'd like to know if there is a native parameter to 'ls' > that just displays which entries are themselves directories. > I've tried to RTFM, but somehow I just can't grok it. > > The command I use now is 'ls -al | grep ^d'. Surely > there is something better? find . -type d -maxdepth 1 or, simpler: ls -d */ -Jon From sobolak at myrealbox.com Fri Aug 16 10:24:59 2002 From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:24:59 -0500 Subject: [buug] Question: getting ls to only display entries that are directories Message-ID: <1029518699.d45c2300sobolak@myrealbox.com> Jon wrote: > ls -d */ Excellent. This is the trick (kludge?) I needed. Why does this work and ls -d not work? It only returns "." (current working directory). Brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ sobolak at myrealbox.com From jammer at weak.org Fri Aug 16 10:29:48 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:29:48 -0700 Subject: [buug] Question: getting ls to only display entries that are directories In-Reply-To: <1029518699.d45c2300sobolak@myrealbox.com> References: <1029518699.d45c2300sobolak@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <20020816172948.GB20464@weak.org> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 12:24:59PM -0500, Brian Sobolak wrote: > > Jon wrote: > > ls -d */ > > Excellent. This is the trick (kludge?) I needed. > > Why does this work and ls -d not work? It only returns "." (current working directory). Run "echo */"; it should provide the necessary insight. -Jon From evans at ncseweb.org Fri Aug 16 10:36:53 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:36:53 -0700 Subject: [buug] Refresh rate? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816103412.01fc3ab0@mail.mindspring.com> Hey, Last at Buugapalooza one of you guys told me the reason the monitor on my BSD 4.5 install might be looking a little fuzzy (kind of line tiny horizontal lines tightly packed across the screen) because of the refresh rate. You told me to slow it down a notch or two, but I can't find that anywhere in sysinstall or in the program where you set the really techy stuff about the display. Anyone know where I can find that? Thanks! PS. I'm still burping up that pastrami, but it was worth it. Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From atporter at primate.net Fri Aug 16 10:47:03 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:47:03 -0700 Subject: [buug] Refresh rate? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816103412.01fc3ab0@mail.mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816103412.01fc3ab0@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020816174703.GG22603@primate.net> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:36:53AM -0700, Skip Evans wrote: > Last at Buugapalooza one of you guys told me the reason the monitor > on my BSD 4.5 install might be looking a little fuzzy (kind of line > tiny horizontal lines tightly packed across the screen) because of > the refresh rate. You told me to slow it down a notch or two, but I > can't find that anywhere in sysinstall or in the program where you > set the really techy stuff about the display. > > Anyone know where I can find that? Well, in a setup tool it should be wherever you define your monitor. In my XF86Config-4 file, there's an option "VertRefresh", mine is set to the range "50-70". You should check your monitor's manual or google for the datasheet to get the right values. From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Fri Aug 16 10:55:41 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Klimb - interactive map builder and a kick-ass TCL/Tk app Message-ID: <20020816175541.91752.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Last night, I mentioned an awesome TCL/Tk app that builds routes for cyclists. It's called "Klimb", and here's the link (unix/windows/source code downloads available for free): ftp://klimb:klimb at ip46.softbook.com/klimb.html This app totally rules. Aaron suggested installing it on a Zaurus, which makes it mobile....hhmmm. Something to think about. ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From itz at speakeasy.org Fri Aug 16 10:59:54 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 16 Aug 2002 10:59:54 -0700 Subject: [buug] Question: getting ls to only display entries that are directories In-Reply-To: <1029518699.d45c2300sobolak@myrealbox.com> References: <1029518699.d45c2300sobolak@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <861y8ybs6d.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Brian> Jon wrote: >> ls -d */ Brian> Excellent. This is the trick (kludge?) I needed. Brian> Why does this work and ls -d not work? It only returns "." Brian> (current working directory). Because the -d flag doesn't affect _what_ files are listed, only _how_ to list them (similar to -l etc.) The absence of -d means list named directories recursively, its presence means list them plainly. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From itz at speakeasy.org Fri Aug 16 11:03:43 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 16 Aug 2002 11:03:43 -0700 Subject: [buug] Refresh rate? In-Reply-To: <20020816174703.GG22603@primate.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816103412.01fc3ab0@mail.mindspring.com> <20020816174703.GG22603@primate.net> Message-ID: <86wuqqadfk.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Skip> Last at Buugapalooza one of you guys told me the reason the Skip> monitor on my BSD 4.5 install might be looking a little fuzzy Skip> (kind of line tiny horizontal lines tightly packed across the Skip> screen) because of the refresh rate. You told me to slow it down Skip> a notch or two, but I can't find that anywhere in sysinstall or Skip> in the program where you set the really techy stuff about the Skip> display. Aaron> Well, in a setup tool it should be wherever you define your Aaron> monitor. In my XF86Config-4 file, there's an option Aaron> "VertRefresh", mine is set to the range "50-70". You should Aaron> check your monitor's manual or google for the datasheet to get Aaron> the right values. Playing with xvidtune could help. You can't directly _set_ the refresh rate that way, but it is computed from the changeable variables and displayed. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From atporter at primate.net Fri Aug 16 11:09:44 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:09:44 -0700 Subject: [buug] Klimb - interactive map builder and a kick-ass TCL/Tk app In-Reply-To: <20020816175541.91752.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020816175541.91752.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020816180944.GH22603@primate.net> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:55:41AM -0700, Bob Read wrote: > ftp://klimb:klimb at ip46.softbook.com/klimb.html > > This app totally rules. Aaron suggested installing it > on a Zaurus, which makes it mobile....hhmmm. > Something to think about. That looks incredibly cool. My suggestion was actually to put it on a handheld and add GPS support so you could track your current progress, etc. It's kinda surprising that there aren't more Uber-Geek bike computers on the market already. If you're spending the big bucks on one of these premium bikes, what's an extra $500 on a super nifty computer? Maybe that'll be my post-bomb project. Tie it all into an iPaq or Zaurus cradle... From itz at speakeasy.org Fri Aug 16 11:17:10 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 16 Aug 2002 11:17:10 -0700 Subject: [buug] Refresh rate? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816111104.02068cc8@mail.mindspring.com> References: <20020816174703.GG22603@primate.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816103412.01fc3ab0@mail.mindspring.com> <20020816174703.GG22603@primate.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816111104.02068cc8@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <86sn1eact5.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> itz> Playing with xvidtune could help. You can't directly _set_ the itz> refresh rate that way, but it is computed from the changeable itz> variables and displayed. Skip> Do you know what variables I should change to bring it down? Skip> It's all greek to me in that thing. "Shorter" or "Narrower". On another thought, your description of the problem sounds vaguely like the description of an interlaced mode. Maybe you should run "X -probeonly" and check that the server is not selecting an interlaced mode for you. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From Bill at 1800radiator.com Fri Aug 16 13:32:00 2002 From: Bill at 1800radiator.com (Honeycutt, Bill) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:32:00 -0700 Subject: [buug] PDA Link from the meeting Message-ID: <40E8BDA5BE88D311847A0008C7332AE9B8F0BF@REBMSG01> Very cool, Aaron! > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron T Porter [SMTP:atporter at primate.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 8:57 PM > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: [buug] PDA Link from the meeting > > > The sexy little handheld is the Sharp Zaurus: > http://www.sharp-usa.com/products/TypeLanding/0,1056,112,00.html > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug From markc at binaryfaith.com Fri Aug 16 15:06:02 2002 From: markc at binaryfaith.com (Mark Cohen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] PDA Link from the meeting. In-Reply-To: <40E8BDA5BE88D311847A0008C7332AE9B8F0BF@REBMSG01> Message-ID: Speaking of sexy linux stuff, :) HP is supporting linux on the Ipaq. www.handhelds.org has all of the kernels and install info. -Mark On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Honeycutt, Bill wrote: > Very cool, Aaron! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Aaron T Porter [SMTP:atporter at primate.net] > > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 8:57 PM > > To: buug at weak.org > > Subject: [buug] PDA Link from the meeting > > > > > > The sexy little handheld is the Sharp Zaurus: > > http://www.sharp-usa.com/products/TypeLanding/0,1056,112,00.html > > _______________________________________________ > > Buug mailing list > > Buug at weak.org > > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From itz at speakeasy.org Fri Aug 16 15:46:01 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 16 Aug 2002 15:46:01 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? Message-ID: <86elcyfmmu.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Just wondering if we could dedicate a part of the next meeting to an exchange of PGP / GPG keys. Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication on this list; and I feel that our group is an excellent example of one which has developed some degree of IRL mutual trust, that could be reused in our online lives. If you want to do this, please remember to bring your key hash, the associated email address, and a picture ID. See you there! -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From atporter at primate.net Fri Aug 16 15:55:56 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:55:56 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <86elcyfmmu.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> References: <86elcyfmmu.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20020816225556.GM22603@primate.net> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 03:46:01PM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote: > Just wondering if we could dedicate a part of the next meeting to an > exchange of PGP / GPG keys. Recently people have voiced support for > encrypted communication on this list; and I feel that our group is an > excellent example of one which has developed some degree of IRL mutual > trust, that could be reused in our online lives. Definately! Thanks for posting this, I had intended to bring this up at the meeting last night, but got distracted. From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 15:58:35 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <86elcyfmmu.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: Howdy all, Does this mean that people not able to physically exchange keys at the meeting will be left out of these discussions because posts to this list will only be encrypted to those who's keys were physically available at some point ? If limiting voice is of concern, a _first_ step should be a list of only approved email addresses, don't you think? Don't get me wrong, I think all email should be encrypted! - but is this a practicle idea? Besides, if we were to do that, I don't nessesarily have a windowless office (to prevent evsdropping while I type my password), and a hardened steel safe (at least) to store my private key in - not to mention that it would be a pain in the butt if I did have a safe at home, and I wanted to get my private key out from work... (let's not even go there...) ;) Just a nit pick - how does verifying ones physical ID, like a drivers license have anything to do with a trusted public key? If a drivers license were all it took, would you feel safe sending something private to the average drivers license holder? For the record, I passed my drivers license test today, no joke! (so, feel free to trust me!) ;) Jeremy Thus spake Ian Zimmerman: > Date: 16 Aug 2002 15:46:01 -0700 > From: Ian Zimmerman > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: [buug] keysigning? > > > Just wondering if we could dedicate a part of the next meeting to an > exchange of PGP / GPG keys. Recently people have voiced support for > encrypted communication on this list; and I feel that our group is an > excellent example of one which has developed some degree of IRL mutual > trust, that could be reused in our online lives. > > If you want to do this, please remember to bring your key hash, the > associated email address, and a picture ID. > > See you there! > > From Bill at 1800radiator.com Fri Aug 16 15:59:14 2002 From: Bill at 1800radiator.com (Honeycutt, Bill) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:59:14 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? Message-ID: <40E8BDA5BE88D311847A0008C7332AE9B8F0C5@REBMSG01> Count me in...anything to put a twist in Ashcroft's knickers > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron T Porter [SMTP:atporter at primate.net] > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 3:56 PM > To: Ian Zimmerman > Cc: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] keysigning? > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 03:46:01PM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote: > > Just wondering if we could dedicate a part of the next meeting to an > > exchange of PGP / GPG keys. Recently people have voiced support for > > encrypted communication on this list; and I feel that our group is an > > excellent example of one which has developed some degree of IRL mutual > > trust, that could be reused in our online lives. > > Definately! Thanks for posting this, I had intended to bring > this up at the meeting last night, but got distracted. > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 16:12:38 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:12:38 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: References: <86elcyfmmu.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Message-ID: <20020816231238.GF9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > Does this mean that people not able to physically exchange keys at the > meeting will be left out of these discussions because posts to this list > will only be encrypted to those who's keys were physically available at > some point ? What a truly astonishing question! I've just re-read Ian's post, and fail to find that anywhere therein. > Just a nit pick - how does verifying ones physical ID, like a drivers > license have anything to do with a trusted public key? I think you need to do some reading on what is and is not meant by the word "trust" in the GPG context. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 16:20:46 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <20020816231238.GF9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: Thus spake Rick Moen: > > Just a nit pick - how does verifying ones physical ID, like a drivers > > license have anything to do with a trusted public key? > > I think you need to do some reading on what is and is not meant by the > word "trust" in the GPG context. I do not think I do. Online trust has nothing nessesarily to do with legal identity. In fact online (aka digital) trust can be established without knowledge of ones legal identity. I am not the only one who thinks so either. * from: http://freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/Philosophy paragraph 7. -- snip -- "It is a common misconception that you cannot trust anonymous information. This is not necessarily true, using digital signatures people can create a secure anonymous pseudonym which, in time, people can learn to trust. " -- snip -- Jeremy From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 16:24:49 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:24:49 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: References: <20020816231238.GF9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20020816232449.GH9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > I do not think I do. Well, good luck to you. > Online trust has nothing nessesarily to do with > legal identity. In fact online (aka digital) trust can be established > without knowledge of ones legal identity. I am not the only one who > thinks so either. > > * from: http://freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/Philosophy > paragraph 7. That's great, but I can't help noticing this has nothing to do with the subject at hand. You seem to be furiously contending with allegations not present. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 16:36:06 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <20020816232449.GH9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: Thus spake Rick Moen: > Well, good luck to you. Thanks Rick! lynx -source "http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/" | grep "" I think this sums it up. Oppinions are just that. Jeremy From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 16:46:13 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <20020816232449.GH9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161642320.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Thus spake Jeremy Brand: > > legal identity. In fact online (aka digital) trust can be established > > without knowledge of ones legal identity. I am not the only one who > > thinks so either. > > > > * from: http://freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/Philosophy > > paragraph 7. Thus spake Rick Moen: > That's great, but I can't help noticing this has nothing to do with the > subject at hand. You seem to be furiously contending with allegations > not present. Actually, Rick - Ian mentioned something like that in his original post: Quoted from Ian Zimmerman: "If you want to do this, please remember to bring your key hash, the associated email address, and a picture ID." ---------- I guess it was a terrible assumption that a picture ID could be something like a drivers license (a legal identity). But, I guess that was a better assumption than it being a CostCo Membership card, or someone's gym photo ID. Jeremy From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 16:55:25 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:55:25 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161642320.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020816232449.GH9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161642320.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020816235525.GJ9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > Actually, Rick - Ian mentioned something like that in his original post: > > Quoted from Ian Zimmerman: > "If you want to do this, please remember to bring your key hash, the > associated email address, and a picture ID." > ---------- > > I guess it was a terrible assumption that a picture ID could be something > like a drivers license (a legal identity). But, I guess that was a better > assumption than it being a CostCo Membership card, or someone's gym photo > ID. It seems that you have some ideological problem with something Ian (Zimmerman, not Clarke) said, but cannot be bothered to state it specifically. That's OK by me, but I think I'm done with this fork of the conversation, as the effort appears futile. Good luck with whatever your shibboleth is. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 16:58:54 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:58:54 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161633390.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020816232449.GH9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161633390.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020816235854.GK9654@linuxmafia.com> Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net) herewith displays a glorious and splendid incapacity to recognise sarcasm when he sees it: > lynx -source "http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/" | grep "<title>" > > I think this sums it up. Oppinions are just that. And universal gravitation is a theory. Thank you for playing. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From evans at ncseweb.org Fri Aug 16 19:05:21 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:05:21 -0700 Subject: [buug] backup devices Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816190431.012ff898@mail.mindspring.com> Hey All, What would some of you recommend for a backup device and software on a BSD box? Burnable CDs? We will be running a lot of list serves and need to archive all the email for legal reasons. Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 20:04:10 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <20020816235525.GJ9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161929060.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Thus spake Rick Moen: > It seems that you have some ideological problem with something Ian > (Zimmerman, not Clarke) said, but cannot be bothered to state it > specifically. That's OK by me, but I think I'm done with this fork of > the conversation, as the effort appears futile. > > Good luck with whatever your shibboleth is. Dear Rick, Your assumption about my _apparent_ ideological problem was simply a misunderstanding by you. I have no ideological problem with what Ian has said. Also, I am deeply sorry you do not understand my shibboleth. In case it was not clear enough from my reply to Ian, Thus spake Jeremy Brand: > "Does this mean that people not able to physically exchange keys at the > meeting will be left out of these discussions because posts to this list > will only be encrypted to those who's keys were physically available at > some point ?" I am wondering if discussion on this list is going to end for those of us who can not physically share a key with the members that meet regularly in Berkeley. On a side note, in response to Ian suggesting that we also not only share our public keys, but also bring a picture ID, I said this: Thus spake Jeremy Brand: > "how does verifying ones physical ID, like a drivers license have > anything to do with a trusted public key? If a drivers license were all > it took, would you feel safe sending something private to the average > drivers license holder?" So, Rick, as it was not clear to you, I will summarize my 3 questions into 1. If you know the answer, please feel free to donate it. Is the list going to be closed to those who can physically NOT provide public keys at the meeting with picture ID? I am particularly interested in an answer - because if that is the case, then I need to find some physical means of transporting my public key and picture ID for a meeting. Had I know this, I could have done it last night - but I do not think I will be able to attend a meeting for quite a while, and it would be a shame to miss out on such wonderful discussion :) Though I disagree if the point that is being made, that presenting a picture ID assumes trust, that is not a point that matters. I also disagree for practicle reasons that a public list be encrypted to all of it's recipients. There are probalby many people that enjoy reading this list that dealing with cryptogrophy would be just too much effort - and thus be shut out. Then there would be the group of people who can not physically present a public key and picture ID - they would be shut out also. There is a lot of shared knowledge that would not be shared to the extent that it is now if this list were encrypted. However, I would certainly present _a_ picture ID (and _a_ public key) if I had the opportunity. Thanks, Jeremy PS, thank you Rick for clearing up any situation in which my questions were not clear enough. Your helpfulness in this matter will not be forgotten. :) From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 21:15:31 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:15:31 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161929060.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020816235525.GJ9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161929060.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020817041531.GP9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > Your assumption about my _apparent_ ideological problem was simply a > misunderstanding by you. I honestly don't care, as there seems to be substance to discuss, let alone one relevant to the topic. > I am wondering if discussion on this list is going to end for those of us > who can not physically share a key with the members that meet regularly in > Berkeley. That continues to be a bizarre question. Nobody suggested that. Ian is simply going to conduct a keysigning party. I think you need to relax, a bit. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 21:38:27 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <20020817041531.GP9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162123140.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Thus spake Rick Moen: > Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:15:31 -0700 > From: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] keysigning? > > Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > > Your assumption about my _apparent_ ideological problem was simply a > > misunderstanding by you. > > Thus spake Rick Moen: > I honestly don't care, as there seems to be substance to discuss, let > alone one relevant to the topic. If you do not care, then maybe you should have considered not bringing it up. > Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > > I am wondering if discussion on this list is going to end for those of us > > who can not physically share a key with the members that meet regularly in > > Berkeley. > > Thus spake Rick Moen: > That continues to be a bizarre question. Nobody suggested that. Ian > is simply going to conduct a keysigning party. Suggesting Ian is conducting a keysigning party does not answer any question. BTW, that is not the question anyway. The simplified question I asked was: > "Is the list going to be closed to those who can physically NOT provide > public keys at the meeting with picture ID?" (Rick,) If you do not have an answer to this question - then there really is no need to respond, is there? (And, for the record, this is a rhetorical question). Your continuation of not answering a question (or questions) is only going to (IMO) detract from someone with a useful answer from answering - and it would be nice to know (that's why I asked). Your helpfulness may have been overstated. Thanks, Jeremy From feedle at feedle.net Fri Aug 16 21:43:15 2002 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle at feedle.net) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161550190.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <86elcyfmmu.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161550190.8077-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <4934.10.3.36.17.1029559395.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> > Does this mean that people not able to physically exchange keys at the > meeting will be left out of these discussions because posts to this list > will only be encrypted to those who's keys were physically available at > some point ? Did I miss something? Why does E-Mail need to be encrypted to this list at all? That seems contrary to the stated goals of the Berkeley UNIX Users Group. Or is this just another one of those leaky conversations that wound up here by mistake (thinking that this was a list for Free/Open/NetBSD development or somesuch)? -Fedl From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 21:45:05 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:45:05 -0700 Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162123140.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020817041531.GP9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162123140.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020817044505.GS9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > If you do not care, then maybe you should have considered not bringing it > up. If memory serves (and it does), you were the one who asked. > Suggesting Ian is conducting a keysigning party does not answer any > question. Well, that's all that Ian spoke of. And the listadmin is Jon McClintock, not Ian. > (Rick,) If you do not have an answer to this question - then there really > is no need to respond, is there? Think of this as a free bonus. Be the first on your block! > (And, for the record, this is a rhetorical question). I collect those. Thanks! ;-> -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 21:48:58 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <4934.10.3.36.17.1029559395.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162148040.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Thus spake feedle at feedle.net: > Did I miss something? Why does E-Mail need to be encrypted to this list > at all? That seems contrary to the stated goals of the Berkeley UNIX > Users Group. > > Or is this just another one of those leaky conversations that wound up > here by mistake (thinking that this was a list for Free/Open/NetBSD > development or somesuch)? Hello Feele, Ian stated in his email this: > "Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication on this > list;" I am wondering the same thing. Jeremy From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 22:11:38 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <20020817044505.GS9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> > Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > > If you do not care, then maybe you should have considered not bringing it > > up. > > Thus spake Rick Moen: > If memory serves (and it does), you were the one who asked. Actually, no. You brought up the fact that you did not understand my shibboleth - unless it is something else that you do not care about. > Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > > Suggesting Ian is conducting a keysigning party does not answer any > > question. > > Thus spake Rick Moen: > Well, that's all that Ian spoke of. And the listadmin is Jon McClintock, > not Ian. Actually, no. Please re-read the first message in this thread. Ian _did_ speak of people voicing support of encryping communications on this list. Quoting Ian: > Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication on this > list; and I feel that our group is an excellent example of one which has > developed some degree of IRL mutual trust, that could be reused in our > online lives. My question still stands unanswered: Is the list going to be closed to those who can physically NOT provide public keys at the meeting with picture ID? Which (one could imagine) evolves naturally to this question: Is this list going to be encrypted? (regardless of physical exchange of keys and IDs). Jeremy From atporter at primate.net Fri Aug 16 22:14:37 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:14:37 -0700 Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020817044505.GS9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020817051437.GQ22603@primate.net> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:11:38PM -0700, Jeremy Brand, B.S. wrote: > > Actually, no. Please re-read the first message in this thread. Ian > _did_ speak of people voicing support of encryping communications on > this list. You're missing context. In the past, we have used the list to discuss encrypting communications -- not list traffic. From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 16 22:17:58 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:17:58 -0700 Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020817044505.GS9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020817051758.GV9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Jeremy Brand, B.S. (jeremy at nirvani.net): > Actually, no. You brought up the fact that you did not understand my > shibboleth - unless it is something else that you do not care about. Irony, here: It was a passing comment. _You_ seem to want to talk about it. > Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication on this > list; and I feel that our group is an excellent example of one which has > developed some degree of IRL mutual trust, that could be reused in our > online lives. I assumed he meant authenticated, not encrypted. Sending encrypted traffic to a mailing list is obviously unworkable. And Ian is _still_ not the listadmin. -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From jeremy at nirvani.net Fri Aug 16 22:23:11 2002 From: jeremy at nirvani.net (Jeremy Brand, B.S.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <20020817051437.GQ22603@primate.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162216360.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Thus spake Aaron T Porter: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:11:38PM -0700, Jeremy Brand, B.S. wrote: > > > > Actually, no. Please re-read the first message in this thread. Ian > > _did_ speak of people voicing support of encryping communications on > > this list. > > You're missing context. In the past, we have used the list to > discuss encrypting communications -- not list traffic. Aaron, Thank you. This answers my question. Regards, Jeremy From jzitt at metatronpress.com Fri Aug 16 22:33:27 2002 From: jzitt at metatronpress.com (Joseph Zitt) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:33:27 -0700 Subject: encrypted list? (Re: [buug] keysigning?) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <20020817044505.GS9654@linuxmafia.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162153180.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <20020816223327.6981331a.jzitt@metatronpress.com> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:11:38 -0700 (PDT) "Jeremy Brand, B.S." <jeremy at nirvani.net> wrote: > Actually, no. Please re-read the first message in this thread. Ian > _did_ speak of people voicing support of encryping communications on > this list. > Quoting Ian: > > Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication on > > this list; and I feel that our group is an excellent example of one > > which has developed some degree of IRL mutual trust, that could be > > reused in our online lives. > > My question still stands unanswered: > > Is the list going to be closed to those who can physically NOT provide > public keys at the meeting with picture ID? > > Which (one could imagine) evolves naturally to this question: > Is this list going to be encrypted? (regardless of physical exchange > of keys and IDs). It may just me that I've been neck-deep in issues of textual interpretation, but it seems to me that the difference in understanding hinges on what "on" means in Ian's first sentence. I *think* he meant that people have, in messages written to this list, expressed interest in ecrypting some of their communications. I don't however, recall seeing anyone wishing that list *itself* be encrypted. Since: - the issue of "trust" (again an ambiguous word) in encryption and authentication hinges on the degree to which you are sure that a given signature corresponds to a given real-world-human, - one of the ways to extend that "trust" is for someone who you trust to confirm that a signature corresponds to someone *he* trusts, - many of the people on this list apparently know each other, - many of these people meet frequently in a convenient real-world meeting, - the documents suggest present a Pretty Good indication that the real-world person bearing the documents is the person identified, - that's good enough for most purposes (remembering that the original PGP stands for Pretty Good Privacy) it seems a reasonable suggestion that a keysigning party happen at these real-world events. It's also pretty clear that encrypting the list would be, at best, extremely difficult, and I doubt anyone would want the problems involved. I've been on a list that did that, in addition to anonymized addresses, and it was *very* difficult, and basically boiled down to a single person (whom none of us, as far as I know, knew) who presented a single point of failure for the web of confidence. When he dropped away, the list immediately failed. So, in brief, I can see where the worry about the list being encrypted came from, but I don't think anyone at all actually wants it to happen. -- | josephzitt at josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | From jan at caustic.org Fri Aug 16 23:49:18 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] backup devices In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816190431.012ff898@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020816223328.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Skip Evans wrote: > Hey All, > > What would some of you recommend for a backup device and software on a > BSD box? Burnable CDs? We will be running a lot of list serves and need > to archive all the email for legal reasons. get a better email client. or, please start doing better wrapping. 70 char a line or so will do nicely. anyhow, for backups: depending on how much data you need to back up will pretty much determin what kind of hardware you buy. since you're new to it, might i suggest taking a look at "UNIX Backup and Recovery" from o'reilly. it's been fairly invaluable of a reference for me, since it covers just about everything i needed to learn, and some that i just didn't know enough about. figure out how much data you need to back up, plan ahead. plan around a media that will be around in 10 years, and can handle the volumes you plan on doing. plot how often you'll be doing full backups (all of the data), partials, and the rest of the crap. then, figure out what will meet your needs as far as media is concerned. for example, i use a couple Sony AIT2 tape drives at work. these are for nightly backups of the main file server, each tape holds roughly 50 gigs uncompressed, and 100 gigs compressed, data. since i do most compression in software, i can push roughly 80 gigs on to the tape, with some work and jockeying. this is only backed up once a week, in total, with lighter dumps done every night or so. the nightly backup tapes are recycled every month or so, with the full (level 0) dumps happening on a weekly basis. on another server, i have a 5 tape jukebox (DLT), doing some network backups with AMANDA (http://www.amanda.org) which is handling a large portion of our developers stuff. each tape can handle rougly 70 gigs of data, uncompressed. again, i do some software compression before the archive is recorded. the trick with backups is that there's no "One Good Solution" for anything. if you plan on scaling, you have to be ready to change and spend the money on the hardware. the other gotcha to look out for is that media is not cheap. tapes are expensive, and have a limited life. cdroms seem cheap, but you have to be sure you've got a good format, and will have a way to recover the data in X amount of years (there are entire companies dedicated to data recovery from "dead" media). included in this is shelf life, how long the backups are going to be viable. tape lasts years, how long does a dormant cdrom, dvd-rom, or equivelent last? if you use a dvd-ram drive, will the format of the dvd be readable to another dvd-rom? one of my major complaints with backup solutions is that tape costs MUCH more per gig than disk. the capasity of the average HD at home is well above the capasity of the normal "home backup" solution. for example, you can get a drive for roughly $2/gig these days (70GB/$140 or so). to get a tape drive, and tapes to handle that much data, will run you roughly $2500 for the drive, and about $50 per tape - depending on the kind of tape it is and the kind of drive. backups are expensive. not doing them is more expensive. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From rick at linuxmafia.com Sat Aug 17 00:05:07 2002 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:05:07 -0700 Subject: [buug] backup devices In-Reply-To: <20020816223328.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816190431.012ff898@mail.mindspring.com> <20020816223328.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20020817070507.GD9654@linuxmafia.com> Quoting f.johan.beisser (jan at caustic.org): [good stuff] My god. _Finally_ some reasonable comments on backups. <grin> Some supplemental materials, in case they'll help: 1. Karsten Self's Linux Backups mini-FAQ (generally useful on *ix): http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/backups.html That document links to my backup-software archive, here: http://linuxmafia.com/pub/linux/backup/ Here is my table of points of comparison among tape technologies: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/tape-backup-types And here are various critiques I've sent to Karsten for future coverage in his Linux Backups mini-FAQ, on points I think he missed: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/tape-backup -- "Is it not the beauty of an asynchronous form of discussion that one can go and make cups of tea, floss the cat, fluff the geraniums, open the kitchen window and scream out it with operatic force, volume, and decorum, and then return to the vexed glowing letters calmer of mind and soul?" -- The Cube, forum3000.org From itz at speakeasy.org Sat Aug 17 08:44:38 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 17 Aug 2002 08:44:38 -0700 Subject: [buug] keysigning? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162148040.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208162148040.9424-100000@wilcox.nirvani.net> Message-ID: <863ctda3rt.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> itz> Recently people have voiced support for encrypted communication itz> on this list. Jeremy> I am wondering the same thing. Of course I did _not_ mean encrypting list traffic. Sorry for the ambiguity. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From ms at formulae.org Sat Aug 17 18:37:24 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:37:24 -0700 Subject: [buug] backup devices In-Reply-To: <20020816223328.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816190431.012ff898@mail.mindspring.com> <20020816223328.H45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20020817183724.B29501@formulae.org> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 11:49:18PM -0700, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Skip Evans wrote: > > > Hey All, > > > > What would some of you recommend for a backup device and software on a > > BSD box? Burnable CDs? We will be running a lot of list serves and need > > to archive all the email for legal reasons. > > get a better email client. or, please start doing better wrapping. 70 char > a line or so will do nicely. stop being so anal, at least he's not sending html to the list. > anyhow, for backups: fine advice.. > -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ ms From itz at speakeasy.org Sun Aug 18 12:41:39 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 18 Aug 2002 12:41:39 -0700 Subject: [buug] floppy drive sought Message-ID: <86znvk7y4s.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> I am looking for a cheap/used ED (2880) floppy drive, does anyone have a lead? (Of course I know about ebay etc. ...) -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From hedges at ucsd.edu Sun Aug 18 17:59:41 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] GPL & selling preconfigured machines In-Reply-To: <20020816143641.GA9654@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208181758170.6745-100000@network.ucsd.edu> On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Rick Moen wrote: > You're imagining a problem where there isn't one. Relevant parts of the > GPL follow: Thanks, I figured; just wanted to double check. --mark-- From evans at ncseweb.org Tue Aug 20 14:22:10 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:22:10 -0700 Subject: [buug] network cards Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820141951.026bce78@mail.mindspring.com> Hi Buugs, I'm going to put this darn box online this weekend or else (spent all last weekend doing a web page of the Grand Canyon), and am wondering if I should go ahead and put the two network cards I'll need in now or wait until I get it on the web first. The reason I'm thinking of making this a two step process is to avoid and interference between the two cards while I'm getting it online. Is this a wise step or being overly cautious? Is BSD good and working with two cards and keeping them from interfering with one another? Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From ms at formulae.org Tue Aug 20 14:29:54 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:29:54 -0700 Subject: [buug] network cards In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820141951.026bce78@mail.mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020820141951.026bce78@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020820142953.G40398@formulae.org> On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 02:22:10PM -0700, Skip Evans wrote: > Hi Buugs, > > I'm going to put this darn box online this weekend or else (spent all last weekend doing a web page of the Grand Canyon), and am wondering if I should go ahead and put the two network cards I'll need in now or wait until I get it on the web first. The reason I'm thinking of making this a two step process is to avoid and interference between the two cards while I'm getting it online. > > Is this a wise step or being overly cautious? Is BSD good and working with two cards and keeping them from interfering with one another? If your kernel is built to support each card they work simply work on reboot. Each will get a name which you can configure using ifconfig. Basically FreeBSD is fine with as many nics as you can put in your computer. If you are going to route packets between interfaces you'll of course need to do lots more.. Just make sure you plug the cables in to the right cards. > Skip Evans ms From john at jjdev.com Thu Aug 22 09:00:37 2002 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:00:37 -0700 Subject: [buug] Xvfb Message-ID: <20020822160037.GA16780@vette.jjdev.com> Does anyone know if there is something like Xvfb for Xsun? We are running Solaris 8 on a Ultra 60...I've got Xvfb running on our Linux boxes, but the Solaris admin is having issues installing what he considers non standard stuff... I've searched sunfreeware.com with no luck. -- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." -- Albert Einstein From will_sargent at yahoo.com Thu Aug 22 10:17:12 2002 From: will_sargent at yahoo.com (Will Sargent) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:17:12 -0700 Subject: [buug] Who's this kid from San Diego? (Me) In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0208132331340.6096-100000@otaku.freeshell.org> Message-ID: <FOEGIMDOLJPAAOICMDIHAELICDAA.will_sargent@yahoo.com> > No, let's really mess his mind up. How about PL/1 or ALGOL? Intercal. Will. From robert at namodn.com Thu Aug 22 12:03:41 2002 From: robert at namodn.com (Rob Helmer) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:03:41 -0700 Subject: [buug] Xvfb In-Reply-To: <20020822160037.GA16780@vette.jjdev.com>; from john@jjdev.com on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 09:00:37AM -0700 References: <20020822160037.GA16780@vette.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20020822120341.B897@namodn.com> Hello, I've been using Xvfb from ftp.x.org on Solaris 7/8 for about 2 years in production now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but OpenWindows is based off of the free X11R6 sources, right? Seems pretty standard to me.. Sun might not support it though, depends on what kind of relationship you have with them. HTH, Rob Helmer On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 09:00:37AM -0700, johnd wrote: > Does anyone know if there is something like Xvfb for Xsun? > > We are running Solaris 8 on a Ultra 60...I've got Xvfb running on > our Linux boxes, but the Solaris admin is having issues installing what > he considers non standard stuff... > > > I've searched sunfreeware.com with no luck. > > > -- > "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." > -- Albert Einstein > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From itz at speakeasy.org Thu Aug 22 12:29:13 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 22 Aug 2002 12:29:13 -0700 Subject: [buug] IDE drives Message-ID: <86u1lm7kvq.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> As part of my latest adventures (on which I'll maybe write later), I finally made my system all-SCSI. (I hope Rick is listening :) The upshot is that I have 3 4G IDE drives in good working order to give away for pennies. More accurately, $15 each, which includes my labor erasing them (you didn't think you'd get the data too, did you). Let me know if interested. They are a 1999 Samsung, a 1997 Fujitsu, and a 1997 IBM. If you get all 3 I'll throw in 2 IDE cables. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Fri Aug 23 14:11:49 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] desk to work at and cable modem/DSL Message-ID: <20020823211149.80887.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> This is a repeat of a previous post I have need of a desk to work at and a cable/DSL/>=T1 connection for 3 months starting September 16, during "normal" working hours. I've just secured a contract, and I'd rather not work at home. I'm trying to "lease" a desk and a connection. Let me know ASAP if you're up for it. Bob ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From itz at speakeasy.org Sat Aug 24 10:11:56 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 24 Aug 2002 10:11:56 -0700 Subject: [buug] test - please ignore Message-ID: <86elcogp0j.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> Eiotet ejktj yety, koruyu cbwr trjky. -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From atporter at primate.net Sat Aug 24 21:03:26 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:03:26 -0700 Subject: [buug] desk to work at and cable modem/DSL In-Reply-To: <20020823211149.80887.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020823211149.80887.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020825040326.GA22160@primate.net> On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 02:11:49PM -0700, Bob Read wrote: > I have need of a desk to work at and a cable/DSL/>=T1 > connection for 3 months starting September 16, during > "normal" working hours. > > I've just secured a contract, and I'd rather not work > at home. I'm trying to "lease" a desk and a > connection. Don't know if you've checked Craigslist, but the commercial space listing seem to have a few options in Berkeley. Might be more than you're looking to spend (one place was $300/mo). But it's a start... From redorman at theofficenet.com Mon Aug 26 01:04:12 2002 From: redorman at theofficenet.com (Robert Dorman) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 01:04:12 -0700 Subject: [buug] FreeBSD 4.5 problems Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020826004722.01212cb0@mail.theofficenet.com> I am a relative newbie to UNIX systems. I have installed FreeBSD 4.5 on my Dell Dimension L800r, separate internal 30GB disk. Windows XP and Me are on a different HD. 1) After installation, including XFree86 (which subsequently wouldn't load, but that's another issue I will deal with later), and rebooting, and logging in as root, I repeatedly get the on-screen message: "getty [2**]: login tty /dev/console operation not supported by device" where ** keeps incrementing with each line. After awhile I get: "init: getty repeating too quickly on port /dev/console, sleeping 30 sec." then the first line mentioned starts repeating again. It interrupts anything else I try to do, like editing a file. (I have a 30 sec. time window to work before the damn thing wakes up again!) Even switching to a different console using ,<ctrl>D or <alt>F2, F3, or F4 and re-logging in still produced the problem. I let this go on for 24 hours once before shutting everything down. Back when I was smarter (a couple of years ago) I had this same problem and fixed it on a different computer. Now I forgot how I did it! I think it had to do with a configuration file and the overly large number of terminal logins permitted in it. 2) I have wireless DSL, which works just fine with Windows XP and Me. Sometimes I get over 1000kbps. I uses and Orinoco PCI card plugged into an adapter that plugs into my USB port. Now Orinoco supposedly has Linux drivers, but I have no idea how to get this working with FreeBSD. The drivers might only be for the PCI card hardware version rather than the USB version. Any help with these problems would certainly be appreciated. From itz at speakeasy.org Mon Aug 26 01:50:45 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 26 Aug 2002 01:50:45 -0700 Subject: [buug] gim In-Reply-To: <86adpqucob.fsf@speakeasy.org> References: <86adpqucob.fsf@speakeasy.org> Message-ID: <86wuqeq9zu.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> itz> A sneak preview of gim is available at itz> http://www.speakeasy.net/~itz/hacks/gim-0.9.1.tar.gz itz> gim is a replacement for gpm, the classic linux mouse itz> multiplexor. Unlike gpm, it doesn't speak the native protocols itz> of mice; instead, it uses gii (the General Graphics Interface itz> input library) to get mouse input. Thus, gii is a prerequisite itz> for gim. itz> I consider the code in this snapshot complete, except for itz> bugfixes. Testing is appreciated. One thing that needs to be itz> completed before a public release is documentation. I know about itz> that and will be working on it. Now up to 0.9.2, in the same place. The addition is a simple C++ interface for clients (in the libgim subdirectory of the distribution). Docs are still missing... -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From jan at caustic.org Mon Aug 26 09:58:17 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] FreeBSD 4.5 problems In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020826004722.01212cb0@mail.theofficenet.com> Message-ID: <20020826093938.Q45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Robert Dorman wrote: > I am a relative newbie to UNIX systems. I have installed FreeBSD 4.5 on my > Dell Dimension L800r, separate internal 30GB disk. Windows XP and Me are > on a different HD. > > 1) After installation, including XFree86 (which subsequently wouldn't load, > but that's another issue I will deal with later), and rebooting, and > logging in as root, I repeatedly get the on-screen message: FreeBSD and X can be a bit of a pain in the ass. it doesn't always play nice, sadly. generally if you use XFree86 4.2.0 or newer things can "Just Work". > "getty [2**]: login tty /dev/console operation not supported by device" > where ** keeps incrementing with each line. After awhile I get: > "init: getty repeating too quickly on port /dev/console, sleeping 30 sec." > then the first line mentioned starts repeating again. It interrupts > anything else I try to do, like editing a file. (I have a 30 sec. time > window to work before the damn thing wakes up again!) don't log in as root. root tends to get all your console output to the screen. it sounds like you have something in /etc/tty messed up or something mislinked. what does the console line in that file say? your next thing to check would be the fbtab. assuming all of this is just hunky-dory, you may want to check the message archives for that problem. specifically the freebsd-questions one at http://marc.theaimsgroup.com. it's rare that you'll see a problem that someone else hasn't encountered. > Even switching to a different console using ,<ctrl>D or <alt>F2, F3, or F4 > and re-logging in still produced the problem. I let this go on for 24 > hours once before shutting everything down. Back when I was smarter (a > couple of years ago) I had this same problem and fixed it on a different > computer. Now I forgot how I did it! I think it had to do with a > configuration file and the overly large number of terminal logins permitted > in it. this is probably the /etc/tty or /etc/fbtab file. > 2) I have wireless DSL, which works just fine with Windows XP and > Me. Sometimes I get over 1000kbps. I uses and Orinoco PCI card plugged > into an adapter that plugs into my USB port. Now Orinoco supposedly has > Linux drivers, but I have no idea how to get this working with > FreeBSD. The drivers might only be for the PCI card hardware version > rather than the USB version. all of the BSDs have support for the various wireless cards. most of this was written by Bill Paul. please read the man pages. the interface can be an0 (in the case of aeronet from cisco) or wi0 (orinoco/lucent). read ancontrol(8) and wicontrol(8) for details on how to make things work. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Mon Aug 26 10:42:28 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] DSL providers Message-ID: <20020826174228.87659.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> (dodging rotten vegetables being thrown at me) umm...I know we already went through a thread about "the best DSL providers", but at the time, I wasn't interested in DSL. Now, I'm interested. I own a cisco 675 and I'd like to know which company y'all recommend. I've even heard of a DSL company that donates profits to charity...what a wacky town we live in. Thanks, Bob ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From jdicioccio at epylon.com Mon Aug 26 10:59:47 2002 From: jdicioccio at epylon.com (DiCioccio, Jason) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:59:47 -0700 Subject: [buug] DSL providers Message-ID: <657B20E93E93D4118F9700D0B73CE3EA02FFF69A@goofy.epylon.lan> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 FYI.. The Cisco 675 probably won't work on anything anymore as it uses CAP encapsulation. You need a router capable of handling DMT in order to get anything anymore.. If anyone knows of one that does CAP though, I'd be interested to know. I didn't think that they existed anymore. Cheers, - -JD- > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Read [mailto:unixjavabob at yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 10:42 AM > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: [buug] DSL providers > > > (dodging rotten vegetables being thrown at me) > > umm...I know we already went through a thread about > "the best DSL providers", but at the time, I wasn't > interested in DSL. > > Now, I'm interested. I own a cisco 675 and I'd like > to know which company y'all recommend. I've even > heard of a DSL company that donates profits to > charity...what a wacky town we live in. > > Thanks, > Bob > > ===== > ----------------------------------------- > Bob Read > Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer > cell (510)-703-1634 > unixjavabob at yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------- > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQA/AwUBPWps4jKUHizV76d/EQLDPwCfVeURmF2kLdhSygvtUv1M4V7gekoAoPNW SFDAAG3l/mQv4o9t7W10a/mk =kP3a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From unixjavabob at yahoo.com Mon Aug 26 12:49:55 2002 From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] DSL providers In-Reply-To: <657B20E93E93D4118F9700D0B73CE3EA02FFF69A@goofy.epylon.lan> Message-ID: <20020826194955.10559.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> So my Cisco 675 is obsolete? That's OK...I could always sell it to Bill! ha, ha Bob --- "DiCioccio, Jason" <jdicioccio at epylon.com> wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > FYI.. The Cisco 675 probably won't work on anything > anymore as it uses > CAP encapsulation. You need a router capable of > handling DMT in order > to get anything anymore.. If anyone knows of one > that does CAP though, > I'd be interested to know. I didn't think that they > existed anymore. > > Cheers, > - -JD- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob Read [mailto:unixjavabob at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 10:42 AM > > To: buug at weak.org > > Subject: [buug] DSL providers > > > > > > (dodging rotten vegetables being thrown at me) > > > > umm...I know we already went through a thread > about > > "the best DSL providers", but at the time, I > wasn't > > interested in DSL. > > > > Now, I'm interested. I own a cisco 675 and I'd > like > > to know which company y'all recommend. I've even > > heard of a DSL company that donates profits to > > charity...what a wacky town we live in. > > > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > > ===== > > ----------------------------------------- > > Bob Read > > Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer > > cell (510)-703-1634 > > unixjavabob at yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > > http://finance.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Buug mailing list > > Buug at weak.org > > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGP 7.0.4 > > iQA/AwUBPWps4jKUHizV76d/EQLDPwCfVeURmF2kLdhSygvtUv1M4V7gekoAoPNW > SFDAAG3l/mQv4o9t7W10a/mk > =kP3a > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug ===== ----------------------------------------- Bob Read Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer cell (510)-703-1634 unixjavabob at yahoo.com ----------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From Bill at 1800radiator.com Mon Aug 26 17:12:30 2002 From: Bill at 1800radiator.com (Honeycutt, Bill) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:12:30 -0700 Subject: [buug] DSL providers Message-ID: <40E8BDA5BE88D311847A0008C7332AE9B8F0D8@REBMSG01> I'll swap you my Gestetner paper tape punch/reader for it :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Read [SMTP:unixjavabob at yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 12:50 PM > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: RE: [buug] DSL providers > > So my Cisco 675 is obsolete? > > That's OK...I could always sell it to Bill! > > ha, ha > > Bob > > --- "DiCioccio, Jason" <jdicioccio at epylon.com> wrote: > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > FYI.. The Cisco 675 probably won't work on anything > > anymore as it uses > > CAP encapsulation. You need a router capable of > > handling DMT in order > > to get anything anymore.. If anyone knows of one > > that does CAP though, > > I'd be interested to know. I didn't think that they > > existed anymore. > > > > Cheers, > > - -JD- > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bob Read [mailto:unixjavabob at yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 10:42 AM > > > To: buug at weak.org > > > Subject: [buug] DSL providers > > > > > > > > > (dodging rotten vegetables being thrown at me) > > > > > > umm...I know we already went through a thread > > about > > > "the best DSL providers", but at the time, I > > wasn't > > > interested in DSL. > > > > > > Now, I'm interested. I own a cisco 675 and I'd > > like > > > to know which company y'all recommend. I've even > > > heard of a DSL company that donates profits to > > > charity...what a wacky town we live in. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Bob > > > > > > ===== > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > Bob Read > > > Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer > > > cell (510)-703-1634 > > > unixjavabob at yahoo.com > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > > > http://finance.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Buug mailing list > > > Buug at weak.org > > > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: PGP 7.0.4 > > > > > iQA/AwUBPWps4jKUHizV76d/EQLDPwCfVeURmF2kLdhSygvtUv1M4V7gekoAoPNW > > SFDAAG3l/mQv4o9t7W10a/mk > > =kP3a > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > > Buug mailing list > > Buug at weak.org > > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > > > ===== > ----------------------------------------- > Bob Read > Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer > cell (510)-703-1634 > unixjavabob at yahoo.com > ----------------------------------------- > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Tue Aug 27 16:36:07 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:36:07 -0700 Subject: [buug] Non-profit group requests assistance Message-ID: <DAJIB9SWQ92I71JEB4WJHGA95J.3d6c0ce7@jwd> Perhaps some folks on the list who were ridiculously rude to me (including you, Jon), would like to apologize by offering their services to assist an online gay organization that subsidizes non-profit queer websites and mailing lists. We seriously need good programmers to develop a message board service. I am forwarding a message to this list, from the person you should contact (Will Doherty): ------- Start of forwarded message ------- From: Will Doherty <doherty at onlinepolicy.org> To: Ezekiel Krahlin <ezekielk at myrealbox.com>, list-owner TALK <list-owners-talk at groups.onlinepolicy.net> Subject: Fwd: Re: [list-owners-talk] Mailing Lists vs. Message Boards Date: 8/27/02 1:58:09 PM We have a team of programmers at work on open source message-board software that could be cloned and used for many online communities, including photos, etc. It will take some time to complete as it is a major project. If you know programmers interested in working on the project, please send them my way. One Internet with Equal Access for All, Will Doherty Online Policy Group, Inc. http://www.onlinepolicy.org ------- At 12:57 PM 8/26/2002 -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: >And this is why I'm deliberating over switching to message board format. >However, that would mean my taking a list away from Queernet...which I >want to support in every way I possibly can. If Queernet had its own >message-board service (too), I'd definitely go for that big-time. -------- End of forwarded message -------- --- "I will never abuse the Oval Orifice." - El Presidente Zeke www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 From Bill at 1800radiator.com Tue Aug 27 16:37:20 2002 From: Bill at 1800radiator.com (Honeycutt, Bill) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:37:20 -0700 Subject: [buug] Non-profit group requests assistance Message-ID: <40E8BDA5BE88D311847A0008C7332AE9B8F0DA@REBMSG01> >Ezekiel Krahlin [ezekielk at myrealbox.com] wrote: > > We seriously need good programmers to develop a message board > service. So is the message going to be anything like your previous postings?. From hedges at ucsd.edu Tue Aug 27 17:51:39 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] System.map problems with 2.4.19 Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271741330.22683-200000@network.ucsd.edu> Hi there. I wonder if this will prompt a more in-depth discussion on the function of the System.map file for those less experienced, like myself. I'm recompiling to try to support an old SoundBlaster card with the OSS module for it. Everything worked fine before this. I added this module in-kernel via `make menuconfig` and then tried to remake and everytime I get the same warning (with `ps`): {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} Warning: /boot/System.map-2.4.19 does not match kernel data. {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} Warning: /boot/System.map does not match kernel data. Normally the make script backed up the files in /boot and then installed there, but the last time I did this, I backed up and then deleted everything from /boot (except /boot/grub) and also backed up and deleted /lib/modules/2.4.19/. (The only module was the dummy net driver anyway.) I also did `make mrproper` and then restored my previous .config file after menuconfig. Then the usual cycle of dep, bzImage, install, modules, modules_install. (Was that the wrong order?) But I still get this error. I attached my .config file as "config". Ideas? --mark-- -------------- next part -------------- # # Automatically generated by make menuconfig: don't edit # CONFIG_X86=y CONFIG_ISA=y # CONFIG_SBUS is not set CONFIG_UID16=y # # Code maturity level options # CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL=y # # Loadable module support # CONFIG_MODULES=y CONFIG_MODVERSIONS=y CONFIG_KMOD=y # # Processor type and features # # CONFIG_M386 is not set # CONFIG_M486 is not set # CONFIG_M586 is not set # CONFIG_M586TSC is not set CONFIG_M586MMX=y # CONFIG_M686 is not set # CONFIG_MPENTIUMIII is not set # CONFIG_MPENTIUM4 is not set # CONFIG_MK6 is not set # CONFIG_MK7 is not set # CONFIG_MELAN is not set # CONFIG_MCRUSOE is not set # CONFIG_MWINCHIPC6 is not set # CONFIG_MWINCHIP2 is not set # CONFIG_MWINCHIP3D is not set # CONFIG_MCYRIXIII is not set CONFIG_X86_WP_WORKS_OK=y CONFIG_X86_INVLPG=y CONFIG_X86_CMPXCHG=y CONFIG_X86_XADD=y CONFIG_X86_BSWAP=y CONFIG_X86_POPAD_OK=y # CONFIG_RWSEM_GENERIC_SPINLOCK is not set CONFIG_RWSEM_XCHGADD_ALGORITHM=y CONFIG_X86_L1_CACHE_SHIFT=5 CONFIG_X86_USE_STRING_486=y CONFIG_X86_ALIGNMENT_16=y CONFIG_X86_TSC=y CONFIG_X86_GOOD_APIC=y CONFIG_X86_PPRO_FENCE=y CONFIG_X86_MCE=y # CONFIG_TOSHIBA is not set # CONFIG_I8K is not set # CONFIG_MICROCODE is not set CONFIG_X86_MSR=y CONFIG_X86_CPUID=y CONFIG_NOHIGHMEM=y # CONFIG_HIGHMEM4G is not set # CONFIG_HIGHMEM64G is not set CONFIG_MATH_EMULATION=y CONFIG_MTRR=y CONFIG_SMP=y # CONFIG_MULTIQUAD is not set CONFIG_HAVE_DEC_LOCK=y # # General setup # CONFIG_NET=y CONFIG_X86_IO_APIC=y CONFIG_X86_LOCAL_APIC=y CONFIG_PCI=y # CONFIG_PCI_GOBIOS is not set # CONFIG_PCI_GODIRECT is not set CONFIG_PCI_GOANY=y CONFIG_PCI_BIOS=y CONFIG_PCI_DIRECT=y CONFIG_PCI_NAMES=y # CONFIG_EISA is not set # CONFIG_MCA is not set # CONFIG_HOTPLUG is not set # CONFIG_PCMCIA is not set # CONFIG_HOTPLUG_PCI is not set CONFIG_SYSVIPC=y CONFIG_BSD_PROCESS_ACCT=y CONFIG_SYSCTL=y CONFIG_KCORE_ELF=y # CONFIG_KCORE_AOUT is not set CONFIG_BINFMT_AOUT=y CONFIG_BINFMT_ELF=y CONFIG_BINFMT_MISC=y CONFIG_PM=y # CONFIG_ACPI is not set CONFIG_APM=y # CONFIG_APM_IGNORE_USER_SUSPEND is not set # CONFIG_APM_DO_ENABLE is not set # CONFIG_APM_CPU_IDLE is not set # CONFIG_APM_DISPLAY_BLANK is not set CONFIG_APM_RTC_IS_GMT=y # CONFIG_APM_ALLOW_INTS is not set # CONFIG_APM_REAL_MODE_POWER_OFF is not set # # Memory Technology Devices (MTD) # # CONFIG_MTD is not set # # Parallel port support # CONFIG_PARPORT=y CONFIG_PARPORT_PC=y CONFIG_PARPORT_PC_CML1=y # CONFIG_PARPORT_SERIAL is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_PC_FIFO is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_PC_SUPERIO is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_AMIGA is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_MFC3 is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_ATARI is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_GSC is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_SUNBPP is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_OTHER is not set # CONFIG_PARPORT_1284 is not set # # Plug and Play configuration # CONFIG_PNP=y CONFIG_ISAPNP=y # # Block devices # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_FD=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_XD is not set # CONFIG_PARIDE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_CPQ_DA is not set # CONFIG_BLK_CPQ_CISS_DA is not set # CONFIG_CISS_SCSI_TAPE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_DAC960 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_UMEM is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_LOOP is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_NBD is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_RAM is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_INITRD is not set # # Multi-device support (RAID and LVM) # # CONFIG_MD is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_MD is not set # CONFIG_MD_LINEAR is not set # CONFIG_MD_RAID0 is not set # CONFIG_MD_RAID1 is not set # CONFIG_MD_RAID5 is not set # CONFIG_MD_MULTIPATH is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_LVM is not set # # Networking options # CONFIG_PACKET=y CONFIG_PACKET_MMAP=y # CONFIG_NETLINK_DEV is not set CONFIG_NETFILTER=y # CONFIG_NETFILTER_DEBUG is not set CONFIG_FILTER=y CONFIG_UNIX=y CONFIG_INET=y CONFIG_IP_MULTICAST=y # CONFIG_IP_ADVANCED_ROUTER is not set # CONFIG_IP_PNP is not set # CONFIG_NET_IPIP is not set # CONFIG_NET_IPGRE is not set # CONFIG_IP_MROUTE is not set # CONFIG_ARPD is not set # CONFIG_INET_ECN is not set CONFIG_SYN_COOKIES=y # # IP: Netfilter Configuration # CONFIG_IP_NF_CONNTRACK=y CONFIG_IP_NF_FTP=y CONFIG_IP_NF_IRC=y # CONFIG_IP_NF_QUEUE is not set CONFIG_IP_NF_IPTABLES=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_LIMIT=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_MAC=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_MARK=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_MULTIPORT=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_TOS=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_AH_ESP=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_LENGTH=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_TTL=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_TCPMSS=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_STATE=y # CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_UNCLEAN is not set # CONFIG_IP_NF_MATCH_OWNER is not set CONFIG_IP_NF_FILTER=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_REJECT=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_MIRROR=y CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT=y CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT_NEEDED=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_MASQUERADE=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_REDIRECT=y # CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT_LOCAL is not set CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT_SNMP_BASIC=y CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT_IRC=y CONFIG_IP_NF_NAT_FTP=y CONFIG_IP_NF_MANGLE=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_TOS=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_MARK=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_LOG=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_ULOG=y CONFIG_IP_NF_TARGET_TCPMSS=y CONFIG_IP_NF_ARPTABLES=y CONFIG_IP_NF_ARPFILTER=y # CONFIG_IPV6 is not set # CONFIG_KHTTPD is not set # CONFIG_ATM is not set # CONFIG_VLAN_8021Q is not set # CONFIG_IPX is not set # CONFIG_ATALK is not set # # Appletalk devices # # CONFIG_DEV_APPLETALK is not set # CONFIG_DECNET is not set # CONFIG_BRIDGE is not set # CONFIG_X25 is not set # CONFIG_LAPB is not set # CONFIG_LLC is not set # CONFIG_NET_DIVERT is not set # CONFIG_ECONET is not set # CONFIG_WAN_ROUTER is not set # CONFIG_NET_FASTROUTE is not set # CONFIG_NET_HW_FLOWCONTROL is not set # # QoS and/or fair queueing # # CONFIG_NET_SCHED is not set # # Network testing # # CONFIG_NET_PKTGEN is not set # # Telephony Support # # CONFIG_PHONE is not set # CONFIG_PHONE_IXJ is not set # CONFIG_PHONE_IXJ_PCMCIA is not set # # ATA/IDE/MFM/RLL support # CONFIG_IDE=y # # IDE, ATA and ATAPI Block devices # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDE=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_HD_IDE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_HD is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK=y CONFIG_IDEDISK_MULTI_MODE=y # CONFIG_IDEDISK_STROKE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_VENDOR is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_FUJITSU is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_IBM is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_MAXTOR is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_QUANTUM is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_SEAGATE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK_WD is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_COMMERIAL is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_TIVO is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDECS is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDECD=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDETAPE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEFLOPPY is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDESCSI is not set # CONFIG_IDE_TASK_IOCTL is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CMD640=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CMD640_ENHANCED is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ISAPNP is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_RZ1000=y CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEPCI=y CONFIG_IDEPCI_SHARE_IRQ=y CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA_PCI=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_OFFBOARD is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA_FORCED is not set CONFIG_IDEDMA_PCI_AUTO=y # CONFIG_IDEDMA_ONLYDISK is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA=y # CONFIG_IDEDMA_PCI_WIP is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDMA_TIMEOUT is not set # CONFIG_IDEDMA_NEW_DRIVE_LISTINGS is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ADMA=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_AEC62XX is not set # CONFIG_AEC62XX_TUNING is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ALI15X3 is not set # CONFIG_WDC_ALI15X3 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_AMD74XX is not set # CONFIG_AMD74XX_OVERRIDE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CMD64X is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CMD680 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CY82C693 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_CS5530 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_HPT34X is not set # CONFIG_HPT34X_AUTODMA is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_HPT366 is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_PIIX=y CONFIG_PIIX_TUNING=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_NS87415 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_OPTI621 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_PDC202XX is not set # CONFIG_PDC202XX_BURST is not set # CONFIG_PDC202XX_FORCE is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_SVWKS is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_SIS5513 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_SLC90E66 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_TRM290 is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_VIA82CXXX is not set # CONFIG_IDE_CHIPSETS is not set CONFIG_IDEDMA_AUTO=y # CONFIG_IDEDMA_IVB is not set # CONFIG_DMA_NONPCI is not set CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDE_MODES=y # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ATARAID is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ATARAID_PDC is not set # CONFIG_BLK_DEV_ATARAID_HPT is not set # # SCSI support # # CONFIG_SCSI is not set # # Fusion MPT device support # # CONFIG_FUSION is not set # CONFIG_FUSION_BOOT is not set # CONFIG_FUSION_ISENSE is not set # CONFIG_FUSION_CTL is not set # CONFIG_FUSION_LAN is not set # # IEEE 1394 (FireWire) support (EXPERIMENTAL) # # CONFIG_IEEE1394 is not set # # I2O device support # # CONFIG_I2O is not set # CONFIG_I2O_PCI is not set # CONFIG_I2O_BLOCK is not set # CONFIG_I2O_LAN is not set # CONFIG_I2O_SCSI is not set # CONFIG_I2O_PROC is not set # # Network device support # CONFIG_NETDEVICES=y # # ARCnet devices # # CONFIG_ARCNET is not set CONFIG_DUMMY=m # CONFIG_BONDING is not set # CONFIG_EQUALIZER is not set # CONFIG_TUN is not set # CONFIG_ETHERTAP is not set # CONFIG_NET_SB1000 is not set # # Ethernet (10 or 100Mbit) # CONFIG_NET_ETHERNET=y # CONFIG_SUNLANCE is not set # CONFIG_HAPPYMEAL is not set # CONFIG_SUNBMAC is not set # CONFIG_SUNQE is not set # CONFIG_SUNGEM is not set CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_3COM=y # CONFIG_EL1 is not set # CONFIG_EL2 is not set # CONFIG_ELPLUS is not set # CONFIG_EL16 is not set # CONFIG_EL3 is not set # CONFIG_3C515 is not set # CONFIG_ELMC is not set # CONFIG_ELMC_II is not set CONFIG_VORTEX=y # CONFIG_LANCE is not set # CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_SMC is not set # CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_RACAL is not set # CONFIG_AT1700 is not set # CONFIG_DEPCA is not set # CONFIG_HP100 is not set CONFIG_NET_ISA=y # CONFIG_E2100 is not set # CONFIG_EWRK3 is not set # CONFIG_EEXPRESS is not set # CONFIG_EEXPRESS_PRO is not set # CONFIG_HPLAN_PLUS is not set # CONFIG_HPLAN is not set # CONFIG_LP486E is not set # CONFIG_ETH16I is not set CONFIG_NE2000=y # CONFIG_NET_PCI is not set # CONFIG_NET_POCKET is not set # # Ethernet (1000 Mbit) # # CONFIG_ACENIC is not set # CONFIG_DL2K is not set # CONFIG_MYRI_SBUS is not set # CONFIG_NS83820 is not set # CONFIG_HAMACHI is not set # CONFIG_YELLOWFIN is not set # CONFIG_SK98LIN is not set # CONFIG_TIGON3 is not set # CONFIG_FDDI is not set # CONFIG_HIPPI is not set # CONFIG_PLIP is not set CONFIG_PPP=y # CONFIG_PPP_MULTILINK is not set # CONFIG_PPP_FILTER is not set CONFIG_PPP_ASYNC=y CONFIG_PPP_SYNC_TTY=y CONFIG_PPP_DEFLATE=y CONFIG_PPP_BSDCOMP=y # CONFIG_PPPOE is not set # CONFIG_SLIP is not set # # Wireless LAN (non-hamradio) # # CONFIG_NET_RADIO is not set # # Token Ring devices # # CONFIG_TR is not set # CONFIG_NET_FC is not set # CONFIG_RCPCI is not set # CONFIG_SHAPER is not set # # Wan interfaces # # CONFIG_WAN is not set # # Amateur Radio support # # CONFIG_HAMRADIO is not set # # IrDA (infrared) support # # CONFIG_IRDA is not set # # ISDN subsystem # # CONFIG_ISDN is not set # # Old CD-ROM drivers (not SCSI, not IDE) # # CONFIG_CD_NO_IDESCSI is not set # # Input core support # # CONFIG_INPUT is not set # CONFIG_INPUT_KEYBDEV is not set # CONFIG_INPUT_MOUSEDEV is not set # CONFIG_INPUT_JOYDEV is not set # CONFIG_INPUT_EVDEV is not set # # Character devices # CONFIG_VT=y CONFIG_VT_CONSOLE=y CONFIG_SERIAL=y # CONFIG_SERIAL_CONSOLE is not set # CONFIG_SERIAL_EXTENDED is not set CONFIG_SERIAL_NONSTANDARD=y # CONFIG_COMPUTONE is not set # CONFIG_ROCKETPORT is not set # CONFIG_CYCLADES is not set # CONFIG_DIGIEPCA is not set # CONFIG_DIGI is not set # CONFIG_ESPSERIAL is not set # CONFIG_MOXA_INTELLIO is not set # CONFIG_MOXA_SMARTIO is not set # CONFIG_ISI is not set # CONFIG_SYNCLINK is not set CONFIG_N_HDLC=y # CONFIG_RISCOM8 is not set # CONFIG_SPECIALIX is not set # CONFIG_SX is not set # CONFIG_RIO is not set # CONFIG_STALDRV is not set CONFIG_UNIX98_PTYS=y CONFIG_UNIX98_PTY_COUNT=256 CONFIG_PRINTER=y # CONFIG_LP_CONSOLE is not set # CONFIG_PPDEV is not set # # I2C support # # CONFIG_I2C is not set # # Mice # # CONFIG_BUSMOUSE is not set CONFIG_MOUSE=y CONFIG_PSMOUSE=y # CONFIG_82C710_MOUSE is not set # CONFIG_PC110_PAD is not set # CONFIG_MK712_MOUSE is not set # # Joysticks # # CONFIG_INPUT_GAMEPORT is not set # CONFIG_QIC02_TAPE is not set # # Watchdog Cards # # CONFIG_WATCHDOG is not set # CONFIG_AMD_RNG is not set # CONFIG_INTEL_RNG is not set # CONFIG_NVRAM is not set # CONFIG_RTC is not set # CONFIG_DTLK is not set # CONFIG_R3964 is not set # CONFIG_APPLICOM is not set # CONFIG_SONYPI is not set # # Ftape, the floppy tape device driver # # CONFIG_FTAPE is not set CONFIG_AGP=y CONFIG_AGP_INTEL=y CONFIG_AGP_I810=y CONFIG_AGP_VIA=y CONFIG_AGP_AMD=y CONFIG_AGP_SIS=y CONFIG_AGP_ALI=y # CONFIG_AGP_SWORKS is not set CONFIG_DRM=y # CONFIG_DRM_OLD is not set CONFIG_DRM_NEW=y CONFIG_DRM_TDFX=y # CONFIG_DRM_R128 is not set CONFIG_DRM_RADEON=y # CONFIG_DRM_I810 is not set # CONFIG_DRM_MGA is not set # CONFIG_DRM_SIS is not set # CONFIG_MWAVE is not set # # Multimedia devices # # CONFIG_VIDEO_DEV is not set # # File systems # # CONFIG_QUOTA is not set # CONFIG_AUTOFS_FS is not set CONFIG_AUTOFS4_FS=y # CONFIG_REISERFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_REISERFS_CHECK is not set # CONFIG_REISERFS_PROC_INFO is not set # CONFIG_ADFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_ADFS_FS_RW is not set # CONFIG_AFFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_HFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_BFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_EXT3_FS is not set # CONFIG_JBD is not set # CONFIG_JBD_DEBUG is not set CONFIG_FAT_FS=y CONFIG_MSDOS_FS=y # CONFIG_UMSDOS_FS is not set CONFIG_VFAT_FS=y # CONFIG_EFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_JFFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_JFFS2_FS is not set # CONFIG_CRAMFS is not set CONFIG_TMPFS=y CONFIG_RAMFS=y CONFIG_ISO9660_FS=y CONFIG_JOLIET=y # CONFIG_ZISOFS is not set # CONFIG_MINIX_FS is not set # CONFIG_VXFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_NTFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_NTFS_RW is not set # CONFIG_HPFS_FS is not set CONFIG_PROC_FS=y # CONFIG_DEVFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_DEVFS_MOUNT is not set # CONFIG_DEVFS_DEBUG is not set CONFIG_DEVPTS_FS=y # CONFIG_QNX4FS_FS is not set # CONFIG_QNX4FS_RW is not set # CONFIG_ROMFS_FS is not set CONFIG_EXT2_FS=y # CONFIG_SYSV_FS is not set # CONFIG_UDF_FS is not set # CONFIG_UDF_RW is not set # CONFIG_UFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_UFS_FS_WRITE is not set # # Network File Systems # # CONFIG_CODA_FS is not set # CONFIG_INTERMEZZO_FS is not set # CONFIG_NFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_NFS_V3 is not set # CONFIG_ROOT_NFS is not set # CONFIG_NFSD is not set # CONFIG_NFSD_V3 is not set # CONFIG_SUNRPC is not set # CONFIG_LOCKD is not set # CONFIG_SMB_FS is not set # CONFIG_NCP_FS is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_PACKET_SIGNING is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_IOCTL_LOCKING is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_STRONG is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_NFS_NS is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_OS2_NS is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_SMALLDOS is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_NLS is not set # CONFIG_NCPFS_EXTRAS is not set # CONFIG_ZISOFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_ZLIB_FS_INFLATE is not set # # Partition Types # # CONFIG_PARTITION_ADVANCED is not set CONFIG_MSDOS_PARTITION=y # CONFIG_SMB_NLS is not set CONFIG_NLS=y # # Native Language Support # CONFIG_NLS_DEFAULT="iso8859-1" # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_437 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_737 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_775 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_850 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_852 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_855 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_857 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_860 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_861 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_862 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_863 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_864 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_865 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_866 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_869 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_936 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_950 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_932 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_949 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_874 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_8 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_1250 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_CODEPAGE_1251 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_1 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_2 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_3 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_4 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_5 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_6 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_7 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_9 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_13 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_14 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_ISO8859_15 is not set # CONFIG_NLS_KOI8_R is not set # CONFIG_NLS_KOI8_U is not set CONFIG_NLS_UTF8=y # # Console drivers # CONFIG_VGA_CONSOLE=y # CONFIG_VIDEO_SELECT is not set # CONFIG_MDA_CONSOLE is not set # # Frame-buffer support # # CONFIG_FB is not set # # Sound # CONFIG_SOUND=y # CONFIG_SOUND_BT878 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_CMPCI is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_EMU10K1 is not set # CONFIG_MIDI_EMU10K1 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_FUSION is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_CS4281 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ES1370 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ES1371 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ESSSOLO1 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MAESTRO is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MAESTRO3 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ICH is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_RME96XX is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_SONICVIBES is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_TRIDENT is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MSNDCLAS is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MSNDPIN is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_VIA82CXXX is not set # CONFIG_MIDI_VIA82CXXX is not set CONFIG_SOUND_OSS=y # CONFIG_SOUND_TRACEINIT is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_DMAP is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_AD1816 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_SGALAXY is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ADLIB is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_ACI_MIXER is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_CS4232 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_SSCAPE is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_GUS is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_VMIDI is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_TRIX is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MSS is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MPU401 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_NM256 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MAD16 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_PAS is not set # CONFIG_PAS_JOYSTICK is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_PSS is not set CONFIG_SOUND_SB=y # CONFIG_SOUND_AWE32_SYNTH is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_WAVEFRONT is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_MAUI is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_YM3812 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_OPL3SA1 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_OPL3SA2 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_YMFPCI is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_YMFPCI_LEGACY is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_UART6850 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_AEDSP16 is not set # CONFIG_SOUND_TVMIXER is not set # # USB support # CONFIG_USB=y # CONFIG_USB_DEBUG is not set # CONFIG_USB_DEVICEFS is not set # CONFIG_USB_BANDWIDTH is not set # CONFIG_USB_LONG_TIMEOUT is not set # CONFIG_USB_EHCI_HCD is not set CONFIG_USB_UHCI_ALT=y # CONFIG_USB_OHCI is not set # CONFIG_USB_AUDIO is not set # CONFIG_USB_EMI26 is not set # CONFIG_USB_BLUETOOTH is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_DEBUG is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_DATAFAB is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_FREECOM is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_ISD200 is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_DPCM is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_HP8200e is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_SDDR09 is not set # CONFIG_USB_STORAGE_JUMPSHOT is not set # CONFIG_USB_ACM is not set # CONFIG_USB_PRINTER is not set # CONFIG_USB_HID is not set # CONFIG_USB_HIDINPUT is not set # CONFIG_USB_HIDDEV is not set # CONFIG_USB_KBD is not set # CONFIG_USB_MOUSE is not set # CONFIG_USB_WACOM is not set # CONFIG_USB_DC2XX is not set # CONFIG_USB_MDC800 is not set # CONFIG_USB_SCANNER is not set # CONFIG_USB_MICROTEK is not set # CONFIG_USB_HPUSBSCSI is not set # CONFIG_USB_PEGASUS is not set # CONFIG_USB_RTL8150 is not set # CONFIG_USB_KAWETH is not set # CONFIG_USB_CATC is not set # CONFIG_USB_CDCETHER is not set # CONFIG_USB_USBNET is not set # CONFIG_USB_USS720 is not set # # USB Serial Converter support # # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_GENERIC is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_BELKIN is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_WHITEHEAT is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_DIGI_ACCELEPORT is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_EMPEG is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_FTDI_SIO is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_VISOR is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_IPAQ is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_IR is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_EDGEPORT is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_PDA is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA28 is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA28X is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA28XA is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA28XB is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA19 is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA18X is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA19W is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KEYSPAN_USA49W is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_MCT_U232 is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_KLSI is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_PL2303 is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_CYBERJACK is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_XIRCOM is not set # CONFIG_USB_SERIAL_OMNINET is not set # CONFIG_USB_RIO500 is not set # CONFIG_USB_AUERSWALD is not set # CONFIG_USB_BRLVGER is not set # # Bluetooth support # # CONFIG_BLUEZ is not set # # Kernel hacking # # CONFIG_DEBUG_KERNEL is not set From jammer at weak.org Tue Aug 27 18:25:48 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:25:48 -0700 Subject: [buug] System.map problems with 2.4.19 In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271741330.22683-200000@network.ucsd.edu> References: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271741330.22683-200000@network.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20020828012548.GJ23625@weak.org> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 05:51:39PM -0700, Mark Hedges wrote: > > Hi there. I wonder if this will prompt a more in-depth > discussion on the function of the System.map file for those > less experienced, like myself. > > I'm recompiling to try to support an old SoundBlaster card with > the OSS module for it. Everything worked fine before this. I > added this module in-kernel via `make menuconfig` and then tried > to remake and everytime I get the same warning (with `ps`): > > {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} > Warning: /boot/System.map-2.4.19 does not match kernel data. > {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} > Warning: /boot/System.map does not match kernel data. > > Normally the make script backed up the files in /boot and then > installed there, but the last time I did this, I backed up and > then deleted everything from /boot (except /boot/grub) and also > backed up and deleted /lib/modules/2.4.19/. (The only module > was the dummy net driver anyway.) I also did `make mrproper` > and then restored my previous .config file after menuconfig. > Then the usual cycle of dep, bzImage, install, modules, > modules_install. (Was that the wrong order?) But I still get > this error. I attached my .config file as "config". Ideas? Hmm...You did reboot, right? What distribution are you running? The System.map file gets installed during the "make install" step. -Jon From hedges at ucsd.edu Tue Aug 27 18:48:15 2002 From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] System.map problems with 2.4.19 In-Reply-To: <20020828012548.GJ23625@weak.org> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271843510.22960-100000@network.ucsd.edu> Yes, yes, I rebooted. I'm on Debian. I think I figured out what the problem was. I had previously configured advanced partition selection under the file systems menu, and selected the msdos bios partition types, and then deselected advanced partition selections without first deselecting the msdos bios partition type. That option was still set to Y in .config, although none of the requisites were, so System.map figured it should be there, but it wasn't. Or something... anyway after fixing that, and compiling the dummy net driver into the kernel instead of as a module, I remade the kernel and it works now without the warning. --mark-- On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Jon McClintock wrote: > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:25:48 -0700 > From: Jon McClintock <jammer at weak.org> > To: Mark Hedges <hedges at ucsd.edu> > Cc: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] System.map problems with 2.4.19 > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 05:51:39PM -0700, Mark Hedges wrote: > > > > Hi there. I wonder if this will prompt a more in-depth > > discussion on the function of the System.map file for those > > less experienced, like myself. > > > > I'm recompiling to try to support an old SoundBlaster card with > > the OSS module for it. Everything worked fine before this. I > > added this module in-kernel via `make menuconfig` and then tried > > to remake and everytime I get the same warning (with `ps`): > > > > {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} > > Warning: /boot/System.map-2.4.19 does not match kernel data. > > {sk_chk_filter} {sk_chk_filter_R__ver_sk_chk_filter} > > Warning: /boot/System.map does not match kernel data. > > > > Normally the make script backed up the files in /boot and then > > installed there, but the last time I did this, I backed up and > > then deleted everything from /boot (except /boot/grub) and also > > backed up and deleted /lib/modules/2.4.19/. (The only module > > was the dummy net driver anyway.) I also did `make mrproper` > > and then restored my previous .config file after menuconfig. > > Then the usual cycle of dep, bzImage, install, modules, > > modules_install. (Was that the wrong order?) But I still get > > this error. I attached my .config file as "config". Ideas? > > Hmm...You did reboot, right? What distribution are you running? The > System.map file gets installed during the "make install" step. > > -Jon > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From jammer at weak.org Tue Aug 27 19:14:31 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:14:31 -0700 Subject: [buug] System.map problems with 2.4.19 In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271843510.22960-100000@network.ucsd.edu> References: <20020828012548.GJ23625@weak.org> <Pine.BSI.4.33.0208271843510.22960-100000@network.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20020828021431.GA11577@weak.org> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 06:48:15PM -0700, Mark Hedges wrote: > > Yes, yes, I rebooted. I'm on Debian. If you're on Debian, you should really be using make-kpkg. It makes building and installing kernels nigh-simple. > I think I figured out what the problem was. I had previously > configured advanced partition selection under the file systems > menu, and selected the msdos bios partition types, and then > deselected advanced partition selections without first > deselecting the msdos bios partition type. That option was > still set to Y in .config, although none of the requisites were, > so System.map figured it should be there, but it wasn't. Or > something... anyway after fixing that, and compiling the dummy > net driver into the kernel instead of as a module, I remade the > kernel and it works now without the warning. Urm. Nope. System.map is exactly what it says it is, a map of the kernel. It's a simple text file listing the offsets of all the things (functions, data, whatnot) compiled into the kernel (look at it and see). Your kernel configuration should have nothing to do with the correlation between the running kernel and the System.map that ps was looking at. Anyway, the error is harmless. -Jon From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Tue Aug 27 20:47:25 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:47:25 -0700 Subject: [buug] Non-profit group requests assistance In-Reply-To: <20020828005202.10112.31664.Mailman@weak.org> Message-ID: <08IA6NHWUZYZJDSRC7DA06D9KHOI76.3d6c47cd@jwd> On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 "Honeycutt, Bill" <Bill at 1800radiator.com> spoke: > So is the message going to be anything like your previous postings?. I take this as a "no" from you, re. my request for good programmers to assist a non-profit organization. You would be much better off not to reply at all, if you don't want to help. And, my original request gave you the correct person to contact, if you did want to help. Can't you read? I did not say to post back to me, in this matter. So, put on your thinking cap, and try being the good little hacker you think you are. And no, my message is NOT anything like my previous posting...which was a humorous dig at the hacker world with a queer spin to it. It was also my way for expressing the enthusiasm and appreciation I feel for the good hackers who have been so much fun and friendly. My apologies for interjecting a little humor among a bunch of apparantly sour-faced idiot savants. FYI, BUUG still advertises itself as friendly to new users, as well as a place to hang out, and schmooze. There is no change in this policy indicated on the BUUG website. Therefore, my humorous article seemed something nice to contribute, in my way of resuming participation. Apparantly Jon does not assume responsibility in providing a forum for non-technical discussion...since his panties are so twisted up over my posting a humorous piece. It is up to him, to either create a second mailing list for non-technical discussions--which is a great way to encourage newbies to "stick with it" re. learning Unix type programs--or change BUUG's policy statement to *exclude* newbies. If a little humor on the main list is for some *queer* reason verboten, then Jon needs to provide another online venue for lighter discus- sions...if indeed he can control his elitist attitude from excluding Unix newbies. I find some of the participants here extremely creepy and sallow. To the detriment of BUUG and potential new members who are likely driven away by such smug attitudes like yours...and which Jon does nothing to discourage. Obviously, an element of homophobia clearly is part of the mix of this little CyberCabal. You either offer help to the non-profit gay online group I asked, or you do not respond with catty replies...if you have any sense of decency. Too bad for Jon, that he did not stop your rude message from being posted. I take that as a "green light" to tell you that you are a royal arse of the first degree. I mean, after all, *goading* me is only a setup to make your cabal look good on the surface, and to demean my statements. --- "I will never abuse the Oval Orifice." - El Presidente Zeke www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 From ms at formulae.org Tue Aug 27 21:50:05 2002 From: ms at formulae.org (Michael Salmon) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:50:05 -0700 Subject: [buug] Non-profit group requests assistance In-Reply-To: <DAJIB9SWQ92I71JEB4WJHGA95J.3d6c0ce7@jwd> References: <DAJIB9SWQ92I71JEB4WJHGA95J.3d6c0ce7@jwd> Message-ID: <20020827215005.I66365@formulae.org> On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 04:36:07PM -0700, Ezekiel Krahlin wrote: > Perhaps some folks on the list who were ridiculously rude to me (including you, Jon), would like to apologize by offering their services to assist an first that would assume we have something to apologize about. > online gay organization that subsidizes non-profit queer websites and mailing lists. We seriously need good programmers to develop a message board > service. I am forwarding a message to this list, from the person you should contact (Will Doherty): in any case, since you'll not get any inkling of tech support from me, i suggest you find one of the many existing message board programs and learn how to install it. i assume you know how to use a search engine. ms From ezekielk at myrealbox.com Tue Aug 27 22:36:40 2002 From: ezekielk at myrealbox.com (Ezekiel Krahlin) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:36:40 -0700 Subject: [buug] Non-profit group requests assistance In-Reply-To: <20020827215005.I66365@formulae.org> Message-ID: <XRXV6ZON2YQICKE51LK1NHDC05WPK.3d6c6168@jwd> 8/27/02 9:50:05 PM, Michael Salmon <ms at formulae.org> wrote: >in any case, since you'll not get any inkling of tech support from me, That's okay. At least you have a sensible suggestion, though misconstrued. >i suggest you find one of the many existing message board programs This message board is for an ISP server, not an individual web site. OPG (Online Policy Group) - http://www.onlinepolicy.org/ - is the LGBT service that sponsors non-profit groups, including myself. They have been providing mailing lists for a few years, and want to also provide message boards to its subscribers. If anyone wants to know the details, and why OPG wants to build one for themselves, feel free to ask OPG President Will Doherty at - doherty at onlinepolicy.org - . >learn how to install it. i assume you know how to use a search engine. Sure. And I assume you know how to read...though some hackers I've met seem to be lacking in advanced English skills, and socializing. That is where I step in at times, to facilitate hacker groups. As for installing message boards, I've installed and run quite a few in my time, including (my favorite): DISCUS - http://www.discusware.com/discus/index.php - . And in the Pre-Internet days (the "golden age" of BBS'ing), I preferred running Maximus on my own system, and on those of my clients. I still enjoy Maximus for its clean interface and ease of customizing. I was planning to install a board on my website (which permits cgi), until I learned that OPG wants to create a board service for all members. As for search engines, my favorite is AllTheWeb (2nd favorite is Google). And I reiterate: the rudeness by some members here towards my original post is really inexcusable, and shameful. I think that at least one person who behaved in this manner, might realize this, and be glad to make things up to me, by offering some quality assistance to OPG. That would really make my day. --- "I will never abuse the Oval Orifice." - El Presidente Zeke www.gay-bible.org/index.html#TOP2 From mikehomesteads at hotmail.com Wed Aug 28 10:36:31 2002 From: mikehomesteads at hotmail.com (Michael Stead) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:36:31 -0700 Subject: [buug] lowercase coversion of filenames Message-ID: <F267liTOs9nYcwga4nP00009a3b@hotmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://buug.org/pipermail/buug/attachments/20020828/aa9e9111/attachment.html> From atporter at primate.net Wed Aug 28 10:59:21 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:59:21 -0700 Subject: [buug] lowercase coversion of filenames In-Reply-To: <F267liTOs9nYcwga4nP00009a3b@hotmail.com> References: <F267liTOs9nYcwga4nP00009a3b@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20020828175921.GS10820@primate.net> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 10:36:31AM -0700, Michael Stead wrote: > I do GIS 'cause it is so much fun, as is UNIX and all this good stuff. > Anyways I recently ran an AML script that has always worked before and > came up with problems. I am trying to loop through a directory and run > a translation process on each file. Unfortunately someone named all > these files with some capital letters embedded in the filenames. Does > anyone know what the UNIX commmand or procedure would be to remedy > this? Something like 'tr', but for filenames? What's wrong with tr? And how about not posting in HTML next time? for file in * ; do mv $file `echo $file | tr [:upper:] [:lower:]` ; done From evans at ncseweb.org Wed Aug 28 11:00:56 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:00:56 -0700 Subject: [buug] Newbie question - obsolete sessions? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828105906.02754d30@mail.mindspring.com> Hey all, Got my freeBSD box up and going and am in the process of configuring majordomo. I'm telneting to it right now from a PC in the office. I just closed the cmd shell on the PC yesterday while logged in as root and when I logged in as myself today I see a root session running but now IP address. Is that a session the system always has up for some reason or is it my old session that I did not log out from yesterday? It doesn't show my IP address like the session under my name does. Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From atporter at primate.net Wed Aug 28 11:01:29 2002 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:01:29 -0700 Subject: [buug] lowercase coversion of filenames In-Reply-To: <20020828175921.GS10820@primate.net> References: <F267liTOs9nYcwga4nP00009a3b@hotmail.com> <20020828175921.GS10820@primate.net> Message-ID: <20020828180129.GT10820@primate.net> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 10:59:21AM -0700, Aaron T Porter wrote: > What's wrong with tr? And how about not posting in HTML next time? > > for file in * ; do mv $file `echo $file | tr [:upper:] [:lower:]` ; done Guess I should note that this will work in Bash, other shells would be a bit different. From cmsclaud at arches.uga.edu Wed Aug 28 11:04:49 2002 From: cmsclaud at arches.uga.edu (Claude Rubinson) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [buug] lowercase coversion of filenames In-Reply-To: <F267liTOs9nYcwga4nP00009a3b@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.10208281358260.188666-100000@archa15.cc.uga.edu> On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Michael Stead wrote: > translation process on each file. Unfortunately someone named all these > files with some capital letters embedded in the filenames. Does anyone > know what the UNIX commmand or procedure would be to remedy this? > Something like 'tr', but for filenames? There are about a million ways to do this, including using tr. The below shell script should work, althouth I haven't tested it. for filename in $(ls|grep [A-Z]; do mv $filename $(echo $filename|tr [:upper:] [:lower:]) done For something more sophisticated you could do a web search for DOS to Unix filename conversions, since this is a common problem. c. From jammer at weak.org Wed Aug 28 11:12:49 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:12:49 -0700 Subject: [buug] Newbie question - obsolete sessions? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828105906.02754d30@mail.mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828105906.02754d30@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020828181249.GI24050@weak.org> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 11:00:56AM -0700, Skip Evans wrote: > Got my freeBSD box up and going and am in the process of configuring majordomo. I'm telneting to it right now from a PC in the office. I just closed the cmd shell on the PC yesterday while logged in as root and when I logged in as myself today I see a root session running but now IP address. Hmm... A couple of things to point out: - majordomo is icky. Try mailman, it's much nicer. - You really shouldn't be using telnet in these modern times. Use SSH. Encryption == good. Clear text passwords == bad. > Is that a session the system always has up for some reason or is it my old session that I did not log out from yesterday? It doesn't show my IP address like the session under my name does. It's hard to tell what you mean... Try pasting the output of the 'w' command. -Jon From psoltani at ultradns.com Wed Aug 28 11:53:13 2002 From: psoltani at ultradns.com (Patrick Soltani) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:53:13 -0700 Subject: [buug] Newbie question - obsolete sessions? Message-ID: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF53968B@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> Hi, when you aborted or disconnected the session without issuing logout command, the server will keep the entry; doing w or who will show the session, however, it is not active. Usually flagged as idle. There is nothing to worry about, however, you can get the pid and do a kill -9 and that should clear it up for you. Any subsequent session will have its own id, etc. Regards, Patrick Soltani. > -----Original Message----- > From: Skip Evans [mailto:evans at ncseweb.org] > Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:01 AM > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: [buug] Newbie question - obsolete sessions? > > > Hey all, > > Got my freeBSD box up and going and am in the process of > configuring majordomo. I'm telneting to it right now from a > PC in the office. I just closed the cmd shell on the PC > yesterday while logged in as root and when I logged in as > myself today I see a root session running but now IP address. > > Is that a session the system always has up for some reason or > is it my old session that I did not log out from yesterday? > It doesn't show my IP address like the session under my name does. > > > Skip Evans > Network Project Director > National Center for Science Education > 420 40th St, Suite 2 > Oakland, CA 94609 > 510-601-7203 > 510-601-7204 (fax) > 800-290-6006 > evans at ncseweb.org > http://www.ncseweb.org > > NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that > this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for > members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about > the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. > > To sign up send: > subscribe ncse your at email.address > to: majordomo at inia.cls.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > From evans at ncseweb.org Wed Aug 28 20:06:30 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:06:30 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> Okay, I'm going to go ahead and sound really dumb here. But I just configured all the aliases and stuff for my first list serve under majordomo, and I need to stop and restart sendmail. I can't find out how to stop it; I am assuming there is a nice, clean way to do this and then just re-execute it? Hey, at least I'm making all you guys feel smart...(-er than your average dummy). Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From jammer at weak.org Wed Aug 28 20:09:54 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:09:54 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020829030954.GA2658@weak.org> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 08:06:30PM -0700, Skip Evans wrote: > Okay, I'm going to go ahead and sound really dumb here. But I just configured all the aliases and stuff for my first list serve under majordomo, and I need to stop and restart sendmail. I can't find out how to stop it; I am assuming there is a nice, clean way to do this and then just re-execute it? > > Hey, at least I'm making all you guys feel smart...(-er than your average dummy). You shouldn't have to restart sendmail...just run 'newaliases'. But, just so you know, /etc/init.d/sendmail can be used to stop/start sendmail. It takes a single argument, run it with no arguments to see what they are. -Jon From jammer at weak.org Wed Aug 28 21:10:22 2002 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:10:22 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question In-Reply-To: <20020829030954.GA2658@weak.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> <20020829030954.GA2658@weak.org> Message-ID: <20020829041022.GE2658@weak.org> On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 08:09:54PM -0700, Jon McClintock wrote: > But, just so you know, /etc/init.d/sendmail can be used to stop/start > sendmail. It takes a single argument, run it with no arguments to see > what they are. Whups. As Skip pointed out, he's running FreeBSD, not Debian. What's the kosher way to restart sendmail on FreeBSD? -Jon From itz at speakeasy.org Thu Aug 29 00:26:03 2002 From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 29 Aug 2002 00:26:03 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question In-Reply-To: <20020829041022.GE2658@weak.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> <20020829030954.GA2658@weak.org> <20020829041022.GE2658@weak.org> Message-ID: <86ptw2p1mc.fsf@kronstadt.homeunix.net> >> But, just so you know, /etc/init.d/sendmail can be used to >> stop/start sendmail. It takes a single argument, run it with no >> arguments to see what they are. Jon> Whups. As Skip pointed out, he's running FreeBSD, not Jon> Debian. What's the kosher way to restart sendmail on FreeBSD? kill `ps ax | fgrep sendmail | fgrep -v fgrep | awk '{print $1;}'` ; sendmail -bd -q30 :-) or install daemontools -- Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A. GPG: 433BA087 9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8 6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087 EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive. From evans at ncseweb.org Thu Aug 29 10:36:34 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:36:34 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question In-Reply-To: <3D6D9E76.1010501@baywinds.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829103556.0286d2d0@mail.mindspring.com> FreeBSD 4.5, distribution? Don't know. At 09:09 PM 8/28/2002 -0700, Bruce Ferrell wrote: >The exact method is dependant on the distribution your using. which OS/Distro are you using? > >Skip Evans wrote: > >>Okay, I'm going to go ahead and sound really dumb here. But I just configured all the aliases and stuff for my first list serve under majordomo, and I need to stop and restart sendmail. I can't find out how to stop it; I am assuming there is a nice, clean way to do this and then just re-execute it? >>Hey, at least I'm making all you guys feel smart...(-er than your average dummy). >> >>Skip Evans >>Network Project Director >>National Center for Science Education >>420 40th St, Suite 2 >>Oakland, CA 94609 >>510-601-7203 >>510-601-7204 (fax) >>800-290-6006 >>evans at ncseweb.org >> http://www.ncseweb.org >>NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. >>To sign up send: >>subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Buug mailing list >>Buug at weak.org >>http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From evans at ncseweb.org Thu Aug 29 10:49:21 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:49:21 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829103556.0286d2d0@mail.mindspring.com> References: <3D6D9E76.1010501@baywinds.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020828195716.028672b0@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829104844.0287da30@mail.mindspring.com> And by the way, I just checked this morning and the list is up and running fine. But it wasn't at 9:30pm last night when I gave up and went for a drink. This system mocks me! At 10:36 AM 8/29/2002 -0700, you wrote: >FreeBSD 4.5, distribution? Don't know. > >At 09:09 PM 8/28/2002 -0700, Bruce Ferrell wrote: >>The exact method is dependant on the distribution your using. which OS/Distro are you using? >> >>Skip Evans wrote: >> >>>Okay, I'm going to go ahead and sound really dumb here. But I just configured all the aliases and stuff for my first list serve under majordomo, and I need to stop and restart sendmail. I can't find out how to stop it; I am assuming there is a nice, clean way to do this and then just re-execute it? >>>Hey, at least I'm making all you guys feel smart...(-er than your average dummy). >>> >>>Skip Evans >>>Network Project Director >>>National Center for Science Education >>>420 40th St, Suite 2 >>>Oakland, CA 94609 >>>510-601-7203 >>>510-601-7204 (fax) >>>800-290-6006 >>>evans at ncseweb.org >>> http://www.ncseweb.org >>>NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. >>>To sign up send: >>>subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Buug mailing list >>>Buug at weak.org >>>http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug >> > > >Skip Evans >Network Project Director >National Center for Science Education >420 40th St, Suite 2 >Oakland, CA 94609 >510-601-7203 >510-601-7204 (fax) >800-290-6006 >evans at ncseweb.org > http://www.ncseweb.org > >NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. > >To sign up send: >subscribe ncse your at email.address >to: majordomo at inia.cls.org > > >_______________________________________________ >Buug mailing list >Buug at weak.org >http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From psoltani at ultradns.com Thu Aug 29 11:40:35 2002 From: psoltani at ultradns.com (Patrick Soltani) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:40:35 -0700 Subject: [buug] Super newbie question Message-ID: <3DBB075EEB95944492E127F2B9A96FAF5DDAEC@ultra-exchange.UltraDNS.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Skip Evans [mailto:evans at ncseweb.org] > Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:49 AM > To: Skip Evans > Cc: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] Super newbie question > > > And by the way, I just checked this morning and the list is > up and running fine. But it wasn't at 9:30pm last night when > I gave up and went for a drink. > May be the drink did the trick. You can always kill -9 the sendmail, however, depending on how it is started, you can shut it down cleanly. check the /usr/local/etc/rc.d/ directory and look for sendmail.sh file, or look into /etc/rc.local file for possible locations that sendmail gets started at the boot time. Regards, Patrick Soltani. From billoomal at yahoo.com Thu Aug 29 20:40:27 2002 From: billoomal at yahoo.com (HD) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] NetBSD 1.5.2, SS5/10/20 and RAID Message-ID: <20020830034027.39830.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I consider myself a complete newbie to the world on *nixes. I mean I comfortable with them, and can even do some basic stuff, but am really awed by the amount of knowledge I have seen float around on this list. With that in mind, I hope the responses to my question are in a style lucid than most others :) So I have a couple of sparc5s, a 2P sparc10 and a 2P sparc20. All of these boxes have two drives of around 1 gb each. I have been wanting to install NetBSD 1.5.2 on them, and set up RAID 0 (plain striping??) so can double my capacity and get some performance advantage. Ok, so how do I do it? I want to ensure that / and swap are striped too. Does anyone here have any pointers on how to go about this task. I don't know if it is too ambitious to do so, when I am familiarizing myself with NetBSD, but then I figure that is how I am going to learn. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Cheers! HD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From jan at caustic.org Thu Aug 29 20:58:37 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] NetBSD 1.5.2, SS5/10/20 and RAID In-Reply-To: <20020830034027.39830.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020829204727.A45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, HD wrote: > I have been wanting to install NetBSD 1.5.2 on them, > and set up RAID 0 (plain striping??) so can double my > capacity and get some performance advantage. why? you'd get a single drive capable of failure, instead of having 2 drives per machine (that are both capable of failure). if you get a single error on one of the two drives, you lose the data on both. not all that useful. when you have a bunch of smaller disks, and need to combine then (3 or more) in to one, then it's a good idea, but you still risk failure wiping out all your data; so keep backups. > Ok, so how do I do it? I want to ensure that / and > swap are striped too. Does anyone here have any > pointers on how to go about this task. I don't know if > it is too ambitious to do so, when I am familiarizing > myself with NetBSD, but then I figure that is how I am > going to learn. don't. firstly, it's not worth concatinating 2 disks. it might boost performance, but on disks that small, you're better off using one for the OS/swap and the other for /home or equivelent. secondly, i don't think you can boot off of a concatinated disk in any of the BSDs. you'll probably need to have a single OS disk anyway. but, it is a good way to learn. good luck, and have fun. > Any help will be greatly appreciated. sure. not all that familiar with NetBSD, though. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche From evans at ncseweb.org Fri Aug 30 14:51:25 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:51:25 -0700 Subject: [buug] majordomo dropping messages with attachments Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830144534.029186b8@mail.mindspring.com> Hi all, Just got majordomo configured on our new BSD box and it's doing something funny (not ha ha funny, peculiar funny.) We have a list for the office and any message that has an attachment does not come through. Now eventually we will configure it to strip all attachments to prevent the spreading of viruses that way, but I'd like to know why it's doing this all the same. Here are the maillog entries for one with attachments. Aug 30 12:20:09 www sendmail[44603]: g7UJK8344603: from=<branch at ncseweb.org>, size=696, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<5.1.0.14.0.20020830122101.0418da08 at mail.mindspring.com>, proto=ESMTP, daemon=MTA, relay=hall.mail. mindspring.net [207.69.200.60] Aug 30 12:20:09 www sendmail[44604]: g7UJK9344604: clone g7UJK8344603, owner=skip Aug 30 12:20:10 www sendmail[44607]: gethostbyaddr(192.168.1.108) failed: 1 Aug 30 12:20:11 www sendmail[44607]: g7UJKAY44607: from=owner-ncseoffice at ncseweb2.org, size=1168, class=0, nrcpts=1, msgid=<200208301920.g7UJKAY44607 at www.ncseweb2.org>, relay=majordomo at localhost Aug 30 12:20:11 www sendmail[44604]: g7UJK9344604: to="|/usr/bin/majordomo/wrapper resend -l ncseoffice nc seoffice-list", ctladdr=<ncseoffice at ncseweb2.org> (26/0), delay=00:00:02, xdelay=00:00:02, mailer=prog, pr i=30118, dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent Aug 30 12:20:11 www sendmail[44609]: g7UJKAY44607: to=skip, delay=00:00:01, xdelay=00:00:00, mailer=local, pri=31168, relay=local, dsn=2.0.0, stat=Sent And it just ends there. The ones without attachments go through and end with (Message queued). Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From evans at ncseweb.org Fri Aug 30 17:02:16 2002 From: evans at ncseweb.org (Skip Evans) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:02:16 -0700 Subject: [buug] Drivers in BSD 4.5 for firewire drives? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830170055.0293baa8@mail.mindspring.com> I'm wondering if I can't use a second drive for a backup, running it like once a week or so, connected to a firewire drive that I can unplug and take off site when the backup is complete. Are there drivers for these things in BSD 4.5? Or is the whole idea just plain silly. Skip Evans Network Project Director National Center for Science Education 420 40th St, Suite 2 Oakland, CA 94609 510-601-7203 510-601-7204 (fax) 800-290-6006 evans at ncseweb.org http://www.ncseweb.org NCSE now has a one way broadcast news list. Please note that this is NOT a discussion list. You cannot post messages for members to receive. We use this list to broadcast news about the creationism/evolution issue to interested parties. To sign up send: subscribe ncse your at email.address to: majordomo at inia.cls.org From jan at caustic.org Fri Aug 30 17:39:18 2002 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] Drivers in BSD 4.5 for firewire drives? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830170055.0293baa8@mail.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020830170852.U45362-100000@pogo.caustic.org> On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Skip Evans wrote: > I'm wondering if I can't use a second drive for a backup, running it > like once a week or so, connected to a firewire drive that I can unplug > and take off site when the backup is complete. > > Are there drivers for these things in BSD 4.5? BSD/OS, no. FreeBSD.. i'm not sure off hand. i don't think so. but, from the looks of it, it doesn't seem that it does, at least in 4.6-RELEASE. this doesn't mean it won't be supported. one other solution is to simply use SCSI drives, or use the removable drive bays. > Or is the whole idea just plain silly. the only issue is making sure that your drives are going to work accross the board. this means you should probably use something other than FFS or UFS for the drive. most people i know would suggest using a FAT32 disk for this, since it should be supported under most OSs that you might install or use. the limitation is filename size, although it can be fairly easily bypassed or handled anyway. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan at caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche