From sobolak at myrealbox.com  Fri Jun  7 09:11:20 2002
From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:11:20 -0500
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
Message-ID: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>

hi

I'm sure everyone has their religious preferences here, but since many of us write code, I'm seeking some ideas for finding a decent IDE.  I know, I know, they all suck.  Fine.  But the one I'm supposed to use for work (Websphere) sucks extroidinarily hard. 

The primary goal for this tool is to write Java code.  Anything else is gravy.  I would like the following features:

 - ability to tell me which class/method I'm in (must have)
 - color-coding:  highlights keywords (must have)
 - brace/paren matching: shows me visually which braces are matching
 - decent search functionality (must have)
 - auto indent (must have)
 - code-folding:  expand/collapse blocks (nice to have)

Debugging capability from within the tool isn't needed.

I'm open to anything, even if it means totally learning a new tool.  My current honey is Komodo because it does all of the above except tell me what method I'm in.  XEmacs bombs because the source files I'm looking at (24,000 lines of code) blow up the regex engine.  I've tried jEdit and didn't have a lot of luck - the java support was buggy.

Anything I'm missing here?  Anything I should look at and haven't?

brian
--
Brian Sobolak
http://www.planetshwoop.com/
sobolak at myrealbox.com



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Jun  7 09:33:23 2002
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:33:23 -0700
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
References: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20020607163323.GS20206@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Brian Sobolak (sobolak at myrealbox.com):

> I'm sure everyone has their religious preferences here, but since many
> of us write code, I'm seeking some ideas for finding a decent IDE.  I
> know, I know, they all suck.  Fine.  But the one I'm supposed to use
> for work (Websphere) sucks extroidinarily hard. 
> 
> The primary goal for this tool is to write Java code.

I can't help you pick one, but I can give you a list:
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#idedev

-- 
Cheers,      "On the face of it, Microsoft complaining about the source license 
Rick Moen    used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black."
rick at linuxmafia.com             -- Adam Barr, former Microsoft Corp. programmer



From unixjavabob at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 09:56:13 2002
From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:56:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20020607165613.72740.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Sobolak <sobolak at myrealbox.com> wrote:

> I'm seeking
> some ideas for finding a decent IDE

In general (as you alluded to), it's best to avoid the
big, clunky IDEs.  In the end, a thorough
understanding of the JDK and a text editor will help
you code more efficiently.

Have you tried GVim or VisualSlickEdit?  Both would
meet your needs.

I also recommend installing a copy of TogetherJ if you
have a CD lying around...not for coding, but for
generating class diagrams, sequence diagrams, and the
like.

As for Emacs regexp blowing up on 24,000 lines of
code, maybe you should download a different (newer?)
version of Xemacs.


=====
-----------------------------------------
Bob Read
Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer
cell (510)-703-1634
unixjavabob at yahoo.com
-----------------------------------------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com



From ms at speakeasy.net  Fri Jun  7 10:00:35 2002
From: ms at speakeasy.net (Michael Salmon)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:00:35 -0700
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
References: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20020607100035.C8211@speakeasy.net>

On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 11:11:20AM -0500, Brian Sobolak wrote:
> 
> hi
> 
> I'm sure everyone has their religious preferences here, but since many of us write code, I'm seeking some ideas for finding a decent IDE.  I know, I know, they all suck.  Fine.  But the one I'm supposed to use for work (Websphere) sucks extroidinarily hard. 

agree, agree..
Let me present you kind sir with my good friend Vim, 6.1.

> The primary goal for this tool is to write Java code.  Anything else is gravy.  I would like the following features:
> 
>  - ability to tell me which class/method I'm in (must have)

Just type in the body of any method:
[m

>  - color-coding:  highlights keywords (must have)
two ways to do it. 
The classic -
:syntax on
and the newer better
:colorscheme $schemename

>  - brace/paren matching: shows me visually which braces are matching

go to a brace, paren, anything that is part of a pair and type '%'

>  - decent search functionality (must have)
Easily done. Type /regexhere
and also you have replace similar (not as robust) to perl.

:%s/find/replace/modifiers

>  - auto indent (must have)

It will do it automagically for most languages depending how you write your
code but you can also tailor it to however you like. Generally out of the
box is good. It is the same to the jakarta coding standard style.

>  - code-folding:  expand/collapse blocks (nice to have)

folding is very robust in vim, 
zf$numLines<enter>
is the general way to create a fold 
and if you place your cursor where the fold is zD will remove the folds.
:help folding

 
> Debugging capability from within the tool isn't needed.

It can work some debuggers, but it's definitly not built-in to it.

> I'm open to anything, even if it means totally learning a new tool.  My current honey is Komodo because it does all of the above except tell me what method I'm in.  XEmacs bombs because the source files I'm looking at (24,000 lines of code) blow up the regex engine.  I've tried jEdit and didn't have a lot of luck - the java support was buggy.
> 
> Anything I'm missing here?  Anything I should look at and haven't?

Give vim a try, it wont have the problems you listed above :)

> brian

ms-



From john at jjdev.com  Fri Jun  7 10:24:06 2002
From: john at jjdev.com (johnd)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:24:06 -0700
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
References: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20020607172406.GA14128@vette.jjdev.com>

On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 11:11:20AM -0500, Brian Sobolak wrote:
> 
> hi
> 
> I'm sure everyone has their religious preferences here, but since many of us write code, I'm seeking some ideas for finding a decent IDE.  I know, I know, they all suck.  Fine.  But the one I'm supposed to use for work (Websphere) sucks extroidinarily hard. 
> 
> The primary goal for this tool is to write Java code.  Anything else is gravy.  I would like the following features:
> 
>  - ability to tell me which class/method I'm in (must have)
>  - color-coding:  highlights keywords (must have)
>  - brace/paren matching: shows me visually which braces are matching
>  - decent search functionality (must have)
>  - auto indent (must have)
>  - code-folding:  expand/collapse blocks (nice to have)

I've found a great IDE...it's called Linux : ).  vi can do all that stuff (vim)
make sure you get a copy of IBM's javac (its is way faster than Sun's)

Good luck integrating external tools with Websphere.  Last time I used it, it
kept all the files in some DB repository.








From unixjavabob at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 10:49:54 2002
From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:49:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Theorizing data structures behind unix utilities
In-Reply-To: <20020607172406.GA14128@vette.jjdev.com>
Message-ID: <20020607174954.39807.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello BUUG,
   At last night's BUUG, we dissected the data
structures behind the unix "make" utility.  I thought
this was a good exercise...and fun!
   I propose we continue along this vein...by
theorizing the data structures behind "ipchains".
   Of course the source code is out there...but that
would be cheating.

Bob

=====
-----------------------------------------
Bob Read
Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer
cell (510)-703-1634
unixjavabob at yahoo.com
-----------------------------------------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com



From unixjavabob at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 12:11:55 2002
From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:11:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Theorizing data structures behind unix utilities
In-Reply-To: <40E8BDA5BE88D311847A0008C7332AE96728D1@REBMSG01>
Message-ID: <20020607191155.57274.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com>

> >    I propose we continue along this vein...by
> > theorizing the data structures behind "ipchains".

OK...here's my guess:

1)  IPChains nas 3 types of rules.  We need a place to
hold the rules and a fast way to find out which rules
are applicable:

name: input chains
type: hashtable
holds: Network Number -> rule number
purpose: matches incoming IP to applicable input chain
rules

name: forward chains
type: hashtable
holds: Network Number -> rule number
purpose: matches incoming IP to applicable forward
chain rules

name: output chains
type: hashtable
holds: Network Number -> rule number
purpose: matches incoming IP to applicable output
chain rules

2)  We need a place to store the rules

name: rules linked list
type: linked list
holds: struct {rule_number, chain_name, chain_order,
rule}
purpose: holds all rules for all chains

3)  We need fast ways of converting IPs for
"masquerade":

name: outbound masqueraded IPs
type: hashtable 
holds: IP inbound -> IP outbound
purpose: lookup outbound masqueraded IP Addresses

name: inbound masqueraded IPs
type: hashtable
holds: IP outbound -> IP inbound
purpose: lookup inbound masqueraded IP Addresses

4)  We need a fast way to make the "decision to
forward or route locally", which is based on a routing
table

name: routing table
type: hashtable
holds: Network Number -> routing decision
purpose: decide to forward or "route local"










=====
-----------------------------------------
Bob Read
Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer
cell (510)-703-1634
unixjavabob at yahoo.com
-----------------------------------------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com



From mjh at icir.org  Fri Jun  7 12:30:04 2002
From: mjh at icir.org (Mark Handley)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:30:04 -0700
Subject: [buug] Theorizing data structures behind unix utilities 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:11:55 PDT."
             <20020607191155.57274.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <32177.1023478204@aardvark.icir.org>

>> >    I propose we continue along this vein...by
>> > theorizing the data structures behind "ipchains".
>
>OK...here's my guess:
>
>1)  IPChains nas 3 types of rules.  We need a place to
>hold the rules and a fast way to find out which rules
>are applicable:
>
>name: input chains
>type: hashtable
>holds: Network Number -> rule number
>purpose: matches incoming IP to applicable input chain
>rules

In most cases where you're matching IP addresses (firewalls, routing
tables, etc), it's hard to use hash tables.  The reason is that you
normally want "longest prefix match" to apply, and you specify the
routes or filters in terms of address and prefix.

For example, if I have a routing table, I might have the following
route entries (10.0.0.0/24 is address 10.0.0.0 with netmask 255.255.255.0):

 Route        Nexthop
 10.0.0.0/16  A
 10.0.0.0/24  B
 10.0.2.0/24  C

In this case the packets for 10.0.0.1 would get nexthop B, packets for
10.0.1.1 would get nexthop A, and packets for 10.0.2.1 would get
nexthop C.

The normal data structure for such lookups is a binary trie:
  http://www.nist.gov/dads/HTML/trie.html

There's been a lot of research on fast route lookup algorithms.  Two
good papers on faster route lookups are:

 http://www.acm.org/sigcomm/sigcomm97/papers/p192.html
 http://www.acm.org/sigcomm/sigcomm97/papers/p182.html

Unfortunately I believe both these algorithms are patented.

Cheers,
	Mark

-------
XORP: eXtensible Open Router Platform, http://www.xorp.org




From will_sargent at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 14:43:02 2002
From: will_sargent at yahoo.com (Will Sargent)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:43:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20020607214302.8468.qmail@web20406.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Sobolak <sobolak at myrealbox.com> wrote:
> 
> hi
> 
> I'm sure everyone has their religious preferences here, but since many of
> us write code, I'm seeking some ideas for finding a decent IDE.  I know,
> I know, they all suck.  Fine.  But the one I'm supposed to use for work
> (Websphere) sucks extroidinarily hard. 
> 
> The primary goal for this tool is to write Java code.  Anything else is
> gravy.  I would like the following features:
> 
>  - ability to tell me which class/method I'm in (must have)
>  - color-coding:  highlights keywords (must have)
>  - brace/paren matching: shows me visually which braces are matching
>  - decent search functionality (must have)
>  - auto indent (must have)
>  - code-folding:  expand/collapse blocks (nice to have)
> 
> Debugging capability from within the tool isn't needed.
> 
> I'm open to anything, even if it means totally learning a new tool.  My
> current honey is Komodo because it does all of the above except tell me
> what method I'm in.  XEmacs bombs because the source files I'm looking at
> (24,000 lines of code) blow up the regex engine.  I've tried jEdit and
> didn't have a lot of luck - the java support was buggy.
> 
> Anything I'm missing here?  Anything I should look at and haven't?

It's kind of ironic reading this, because I'm sitting in a class listening
to an Eclipse evangelist.  Eclipse has the advantage of being free and
reasonably complete, but the package and library manangement isn't quite as
good as JBuilder (although the differences are mostly academic unless
you're dealing with a bazillion little projects like I do.)

Personally I like JBuilder Professional best.  JBuilder personal doesn't
really cover what JBuilder can do; the best features is that the libraries
will encapsulate javadoc, classes and source code and then deal with it
transparently, and make libraries depend on each other.  You can even plug
in a JAD decompiler to see code from complied classes.  But it costs real
money.

jEdit is an editor I have a soft spot for, but I use it for everything
EXCEPT java programming.  I typically use it for the *ML langauges and
properties files and the like.

I have a deep seated dislike of Forte, which is another free Java IDE.  I
think the user interface sucks.  So I think your best choice is probably
Eclipse.

Yes, I know vim and Emacs have been around for 20 years.  They're hacks. 
Plain and simple.  Admit it.

Will.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com



From ms at speakeasy.net  Fri Jun  7 15:08:09 2002
From: ms at speakeasy.net (Michael Salmon)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:08:09 -0700
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <20020607214302.8468.qmail@web20406.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com> <20020607214302.8468.qmail@web20406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020607150809.E8211@speakeasy.net>

On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 02:43:02PM -0700, Will Sargent wrote:
> 
> --- Brian Sobolak <sobolak at myrealbox.com> wrote:
 
> Yes, I know vim and Emacs have been around for 20 years.  They're hacks. 
> Plain and simple.  Admit it.

you're wrong, so you wont get anyone to admit anything.

> Will.
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug

ms-



From itz at speakeasy.org  Fri Jun  7 15:54:32 2002
From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: 07 Jun 2002 15:54:32 -0700
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <20020607214302.8468.qmail@web20406.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20020607214302.8468.qmail@web20406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <86zny64s47.fsf@speakeasy.org>

Will> jEdit is an editor I have a soft spot for, but I use it for
Will> everything EXCEPT java programming.  I typically use it for the
Will> *ML langauges and properties files and the like.

But not ML, I guess.  So you'd better watch your globs :)

(Ian, who uses Emacs for everything, including ML, SGML and XML)

-- 
Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A.
GPG: 433BA087  9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8  6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087
EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive.



From unixjavabob at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 15:58:21 2002
From: unixjavabob at yahoo.com (Bob Read)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:58:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <20020607150809.E8211@speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <20020607225821.96537.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com>

> > Yes, I know vim and Emacs have been around for 20
> years.  They're hacks. 
> > Plain and simple.  Admit it.
> 
> you're wrong, so you wont get anyone to admit
> anything.

People who use IDEs or text editors are wussies.

I display the source code in hex, put on a pair of 3-D
goggles and turn my monitor upside-down while
listening to Pink Floyd.  I edit the files directly on
the hard-drive spindles with a modified refridgerator
magnet shaped like the state of Ohio.



=====
-----------------------------------------
Bob Read
Senior Unix Administrator/DBA/Programmer
cell (510)-703-1634
unixjavabob at yahoo.com
-----------------------------------------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com



From john at jjdev.com  Fri Jun  7 17:55:10 2002
From: john at jjdev.com (johnd)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:55:10 -0700
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <20020607214302.8468.qmail@web20406.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1023466280.4b279ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com> <20020607214302.8468.qmail@web20406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20020608005510.GB15068@vette.jjdev.com>

> 
> Yes, I know vim and Emacs have been around for 20 years.  They're hacks. 
> Plain and simple.  Admit it.

yea...kind of like Unix.




From alganesh at rediffmail.com  Fri Jun  7 23:03:13 2002
From: alganesh at rediffmail.com (Ganesh  Kumar)
Date: 8 Jun 2002 06:03:13 -0000
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
Message-ID: <20020608060313.1659.qmail@webmail2.rediffmail.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://buug.org/pipermail/buug/attachments/20020608/ca027e57/attachment.ksh>

From sobolak at myrealbox.com  Sun Jun  9 13:35:30 2002
From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 15:35:30 -0500
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
Message-ID: <1023654930.535adff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>

It might be faster, but whatever version that comes with Websphere 3.5 is worthless.  Have I mentioned that Websphere is worthless?

As for the Java IDE:  thanks everyone for your suggestions.  I'm going to try and learn (gulp) vim and see where that takes me.  JBuilder scored high, but I couldn't possibly sneak it under the covers the the Corporate IS KGB like I could a handy copy of vim.

brian

ps Moz 1.0 - anyone going to the party this Tues. at the DNA Lounge?

-----Original Message-----
From: "Ganesh  Kumar" <alganesh at rediffmail.com>
To: buug at weak.org
Date: 8 Jun 2002 06:03:13 -0000
Subject: Re: Re: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE

>make sure you get a copy of IBM's javac (its is way faster than 
>Sun's)

Is is Jikes? Jikes seem run faster with linux(tried with zoot 
version of redhat)


--ganesh
_________________________________________________________
Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India or 
Abroad
http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs


_______________________________________________
Buug mailing list
Buug at weak.org
http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug


--
Brian Sobolak
http://www.planetshwoop.com/
sobolak at myrealbox.com



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sun Jun  9 15:49:33 2002
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 15:49:33 -0700
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <1023654930.535adff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
References: <1023654930.535adff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20020609224933.GF20206@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Brian Sobolak (sobolak at myrealbox.com):

> As for the Java IDE:  thanks everyone for your suggestions.  I'm going
> to try and learn (gulp) vim and see where that takes me. 

I love vim.  I _live_ vim.  But, if I were more of a coder, I'd sit down
and learn xemacs.

-- 
Cheers,
Rick Moen                      "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font."
rick at linuxmafia.com                               -- Psalm 0.1 beta



From sobolak at myrealbox.com  Fri Jun  7 22:13:37 2002
From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 22:13:37 -0700
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <20020607225821.96537.qmail@web13804.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B926E091.5FF5%sobolak@myrealbox.com>

On 6/7/02 3:58 PM, "Bob Read" <unixjavabob at yahoo.com> wrote:

>>> Yes, I know vim and Emacs have been around for 20
>> years.  They're hacks.
>>> Plain and simple.  Admit it.
>> 
>> you're wrong, so you wont get anyone to admit
>> anything.
> 
> People who use IDEs or text editors are wussies.
> 
> I display the source code in hex, put on a pair of 3-D
> goggles and turn my monitor upside-down while
> listening to Pink Floyd.  I edit the files directly on
> the hard-drive spindles with a modified refridgerator
> magnet shaped like the state of Ohio.
> 

Ohio?  I've found I'm so much more productive when I use a magnet shaped
like Texas.

Brian

Ps LOL

-- 
What planet are you on?         http://www.planetshwoop.com/
This is how I think             http://www.planetshwoop.com/blog/
Brian Sobolak                   sobolak at myrealbox.com




From ms at speakeasy.net  Mon Jun 10 09:43:07 2002
From: ms at speakeasy.net (Michael Salmon)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:43:07 -0700
Subject: [buug] Single male programmer ISO decent Java IDE
In-Reply-To: <1023654930.535adff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
References: <1023654930.535adff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <20020610094307.A18641@speakeasy.net>

On Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 03:35:30PM -0500, Brian Sobolak wrote:
> 
> It might be faster, but whatever version that comes with Websphere 3.5 is worthless.  Have I mentioned that Websphere is worthless?
> 
> As for the Java IDE:  thanks everyone for your suggestions.  I'm going to try and learn (gulp) vim and see where that takes me.  JBuilder scored high, but I couldn't possibly sneak it under the covers the the Corporate IS KGB like I could a handy copy of vim.

When you have questions the docs dont answer, I recommend the #vim chatroom 
on OPN. You'll almost always get a good answer. Also the vimtutor program
is a good way to get started, which comes with most vim packages.

> brian

ms-



From john at jjdev.com  Mon Jun 10 12:50:55 2002
From: john at jjdev.com (johnd)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:50:55 -0700
Subject: [buug] linux world expo
Message-ID: <20020610195055.GA4588@vette.jjdev.com>

A while back, someone posted something about a free pass or something to
linuxworld expo.

If that rings a bell for you, can you forward me the message?



-- 
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." 
-- Albert Einstein 




From jammer at weak.org  Mon Jun 10 13:30:05 2002
From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:30:05 -0700
Subject: [buug] linux world expo
In-Reply-To: <20020610195055.GA4588@vette.jjdev.com>; from john@jjdev.com on Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:50:55PM -0700
References: <20020610195055.GA4588@vette.jjdev.com>
Message-ID: <20020610133005.A15451@weak.org>

On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:50:55PM -0700, johnd wrote:
> A while back, someone posted something about a free pass or something to
> linuxworld expo.
> 
> If that rings a bell for you, can you forward me the message?

It was a limited time deal. The last day to get free registration was May 1.
Check the BUUG archives if you're still interested, linked off of
http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug/ .

-Jon



From atporter at primate.net  Mon Jun 10 13:35:01 2002
From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:35:01 -0700
Subject: [buug] linux world expo
In-Reply-To: <20020610133005.A15451@weak.org>
References: <20020610195055.GA4588@vette.jjdev.com> <20020610133005.A15451@weak.org>
Message-ID: <20020610203501.GJ28004@primate.net>

On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:30:05PM -0700, Jon McClintock wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:50:55PM -0700, johnd wrote:
> > A while back, someone posted something about a free pass or something to
> > linuxworld expo.
> > 
> > If that rings a bell for you, can you forward me the message?
> 
> It was a limited time deal. The last day to get free registration was May 1.
> Check the BUUG archives if you're still interested, linked off of
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug/ .

	If registration is anything like it was last show, they'll
practically be paying people to wander around the exhibit floor. Keep your
eyes open as the show gets closer, they have always in the past had an
exhibits only coupon in the Chronicle, and any vendor exhibiting will also
get a stack of exhibits passes.



From john at jjdev.com  Mon Jun 10 13:36:40 2002
From: john at jjdev.com (johnd)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:36:40 -0700
Subject: [buug] linux world expo
In-Reply-To: <20020610203501.GJ28004@primate.net>
References: <20020610195055.GA4588@vette.jjdev.com> <20020610133005.A15451@weak.org> <20020610203501.GJ28004@primate.net>
Message-ID: <20020610203640.GA4738@vette.jjdev.com>

> 
> 	If registration is anything like it was last show, they'll
> practically be paying people to wander around the exhibit floor. Keep your
> eyes open as the show gets closer, they have always in the past had an
> exhibits only coupon in the Chronicle, and any vendor exhibiting will also
> get a stack of exhibits passes.

Is there anyone out there that can hook me up with a few passes?





From itz at speakeasy.org  Mon Jun 10 22:05:58 2002
From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: 10 Jun 2002 22:05:58 -0700
Subject: [buug] Linux framebuffer console and fbset
Message-ID: <86it4qievd.fsf@speakeasy.org>

Reading the documentation about the fbset command, I get the
impression that I ought to be able to change the text resolution or
timing parameters of my virtual terminals using it.  However, this
does not happen:

Script started on Mon Jun 10 21:59:04 2002
kronstadt:~# fbset

mode "1024x768-76"
    # D: 78.653 MHz, H: 59.949 kHz, V: 75.694 Hz
    geometry 1024 768 1024 768 8
    timings 12714 128 32 16 4 128 4
    rgba 6/0,6/0,6/0,0/0
endmode

kronstadt:~# fbset --verbose 1024x768-90
Linux Frame Buffer Device Configuration Version 2.1 (23/06/1999)
(C) Copyright 1995-1999 by Geert Uytterhoeven

Opening frame buffer device `/dev/fb0'
Reading mode database from file `/etc/fb.modes'
Using video mode `1024x768-90'
Setting video mode to `/dev/fb0'
kronstadt:~# fbset

mode "1024x768-76"
    # D: 78.653 MHz, H: 59.949 kHz, V: 75.694 Hz
    geometry 1024 768 1024 768 8
    timings 12714 128 32 16 4 128 4
    rgba 6/0,6/0,6/0,0/0
endmode

kronstadt:~# 
Script done on Mon Jun 10 21:59:31 2002

Why? What am I doing wrong? All the ioctl calls succeed, I know that,
because I looked at the fbset source and it exits immediately with a
loud complaint if anything fails.

And the documentation, although not lacking in quantity, completely
fails to explain the link between /dev/fb* and /dev/tty*.  I assume
that /dev/fb0 is the one to change, but how do I know?  

-- 
Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A.
GPG: 433BA087  9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8  6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087
EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive.



From karshi.hasanov at utoronto.ca  Wed Jun 12 15:49:23 2002
From: karshi.hasanov at utoronto.ca (Karshi)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:49:23 -0700
Subject: [buug] GeForce4_Ti_4600?
Message-ID: <200206121549.23555.karshi.hasanov@utoronto.ca>

Hi all,

 I am wondering if any of you succied running Xserver under GeForce4.
 I am coming from Linux world, and today I wanted to try to 
install FreeBSD4.5 . So far I have no problems except XFree86. I don't
know if it supports nvidia cards at all.

Thanks



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Jun 12 13:04:31 2002
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:04:31 -0700
Subject: [buug] GeForce4_Ti_4600?
In-Reply-To: <200206121549.23555.karshi.hasanov@utoronto.ca>
References: <200206121549.23555.karshi.hasanov@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20020612200431.GW19833@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Karshi (karshi.hasanov at utoronto.ca):

> I am wondering if any of you succied running Xserver under GeForce4.
> I am coming from Linux world, and today I wanted to try to 
> install FreeBSD4.5 . So far I have no problems except XFree86. I don't
> know if it supports nvidia cards at all.

As you may know, Nvidia is rare among video chipset manufacturers in 
refusing to cooperate with the XFree86 Project, instead releasing 
proprietary, binary-only driver software for only selected environments.
So far, that doesn't include FreeBSD.

http://www.xfree86.org/4.2.0/Status22.html

There's a mostly-functional port of Nvidia's proprietary drivers for Linux:
http://nvidia.netexplorer.org/

This situation is why I personally would avoid buying an Nvidia card.
You may wish to consider an ATI Radeon.

-- 
Cheers,   The difference between common sense and paranoia is that common sense
Rick Moen     is thinking everyone is out to get you.  That's normal; they are.
rick at linuxmafia.com      Paranoia is thinking they're conspiring.  -- J. Kegler



From atporter at primate.net  Wed Jun 12 13:06:30 2002
From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:06:30 -0700
Subject: [buug] GeForce4_Ti_4600?
In-Reply-To: <200206121549.23555.karshi.hasanov@utoronto.ca>
References: <200206121549.23555.karshi.hasanov@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20020612200630.GA27481@primate.net>

On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 03:49:23PM -0700, Karshi wrote:

>  I am wondering if any of you succied running Xserver under GeForce4.
>  I am coming from Linux world, and today I wanted to try to 
> install FreeBSD4.5 . So far I have no problems except XFree86. I don't
> know if it supports nvidia cards at all.

	XFree supports some of the Nvidia cards with the nv driver, but it
doesn't look like yours is one of them. You can check the XFree86 4.02
release notes at www.xfree.org for that. It looks like your best bet for
getting X running on that card would be Linux. Nvidia provides their own,
non-free Linux drivers -- and your card is listed as supported.

http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?PAGE=linux



From itz at speakeasy.org  Thu Jun 13 16:58:41 2002
From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: 13 Jun 2002 16:58:41 -0700
Subject: [buug] xmodmap
Message-ID: <86660mbuj2.fsf@speakeasy.org>

I am forced to admit I don't understand how xmodmap, or X keyboard
configuration in general, is supposed to work.  None of the
documentation available goes into sufficient depth to answer my
questions (which to me seem like the first ones anyone would ask).

First, the xmodmap manpage says:

 keycode NUMBER = KEYSYMNAME ...
 The  list of keysyms is assigned to the indicated keycode (which may be specified in decimal,
 hex or octal and can be determined by running the xev program.


The frustrating part here is "The list".  What does it mean when more
than 1 keysym is listed?  What determines which character among those
listed for a keycode is ultimately input and echoed when I type the
key in xterm, for example?  When I do xmodmap -pm -pke (listing the
map in effect), I get stuff like this:

[...]
keycode  32 = o O
keycode  33 = p P
keycode  34 = bracketleft braceleft
keycode  35 = bracketright braceright
[...]

This would suggest (also by analogy with the Linux kernel console
keymaps) that the additional keysyms listed are bound to the event of
pressing the key together with modifier keys.  However, this is
nowhere even implied in the manpage, and the output never contains
more than 2 keysyms with a particular keycode, so what of
Control-keycode, Alt-keycode and the remaining combinations, which
work fine in my apps (mostly Emacs)?

What I actually want to do is to rebind the Multi_key keysym, which by
default seems to be on the right Control key.  I find that confusing
and want to have 2 identical Control keys.  So I thought I would bind
Multi_key to Control-period, just as it is in the default kernel keymap.

Not being any wiser after reading about xmodmap, I tried to have
xkeycaps do it for me.  I right-clicked on the period and I got a
pop-up window that looked as if my hypothesis about the list
corresponding to modifier key states was right: there was a column of
keysyms on the left, of which only the first 2 were defined, and a
column of modifiers on the right, the first 3 of which were "none",
"shift", and "control".  I selected the 3rd row and entered
"Multi_key".  I had xkeycaps write the output to a file and pasted the
relevant piece into my ~/.Xmodmap file:

keycode 60 = period greater Multi_key

After restarting X (not just my session, but xdm as well, to be sure)
I confirmed that my startup scripts grokked the new .Xmodmap by
running xmodmap -pm -pke again.  The above line was there.  Running
xkeycaps I and clicking on the period I can now see 3 defined rows in
the bindings window.

But it doesn't work!  Control-period produces just a period in xterm,
and Emacs beeps and says "Control-. is undefined" - which just means,
of course, that it got no special X event for the keystroke, it just
saw a period like xterm did.

Where are you, my glory days of text mode? :-(

-- 
Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A.
GPG: 433BA087  9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8  6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087
EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive.



From jammer at weak.org  Fri Jun 14 13:06:15 2002
From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:06:15 -0700
Subject: [buug] [Kristin_Gallo@idg.com: [Buug-admin] Conference Savings at LinuxWorld Conference & Expo]
Message-ID: <20020614130615.C17190@weak.org>

Well, it's not free, but 50% off is better than nothing...

-Jon

----- Forwarded message from Kristin_Gallo at idg.com -----

From: Kristin_Gallo at idg.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:20:38 -0400
Subject: [Buug-admin] Conference Savings at LinuxWorld Conference & Expo

Dear Linux User Group Member,

As a Linux User Group Member, we recognize your loyalty, commitment and
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        http://www.linuxworldexpo.com/

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For exclusive Conference benefits, please visit:
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This offer is valid for new registrations only.  This offer may not be
redeemed for cash or used in conjunction with any other offer.  All
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non-refundable and non-transferrable.  Discounts on registration fees are
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No refunds or credits will be issued for a discount after the initial
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Media Sponsors: CRN, Dr. Dobb's Journal, Google, InfoWorld, IT
Professional, Linux Magazine, Linux Journal, LinuxWorld.com, Networkworld,
OSDN, Sys Admin, Var Business, WebSphere









_______________________________________________
Buug-admin mailing list
Buug-admin at weak.org
http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug-admin

----- End forwarded message -----



From itz at speakeasy.org  Wed Jun 19 15:27:32 2002
From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: 19 Jun 2002 15:27:32 -0700
Subject: [buug] gim
Message-ID: <86adpqucob.fsf@speakeasy.org>

A sneak preview of gim is available at

http://www.speakeasy.net/~itz/hacks/gim-0.9.1.tar.gz

gim is a replacement for gpm, the classic linux mouse multiplexor.
Unlike gpm, it doesn't speak the native protocols of mice; instead, it
uses gii (the General Graphics Interface input library) to get mouse
input.  Thus, gii is a prerequisite for gim.

I consider the code in this snapshot complete, except for bugfixes.
Testing is appreciated.  One thing that needs to be completed before a
public release is documentation.  I know about that and will be
working on it.

Bug reports, patches, and suggestions are welcome.  I am considering a
publicly accessible archive (cvs?) but if it happens it will be
read-only; I want to keep complete control of the development.

Best,

-- 
Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A.
GPG: 433BA087  9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8  6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087
EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive.



From sobolak at myrealbox.com  Wed Jun 19 16:04:47 2002
From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:04:47 -0500
Subject: [buug] gim
Message-ID: <1024527887.43b22ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>


> From: Ian Zimmerman <itz at speakeasy.org>
> gim is a replacement for gpm, the classic linux mouse multiplexor.

Sorry to have to ask, but what is a mouse multiplexor?

brian
--
Brian Sobolak
http://www.planetshwoop.com/
sobolak at myrealbox.com



From itz at speakeasy.org  Wed Jun 19 16:07:08 2002
From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: 19 Jun 2002 16:07:08 -0700
Subject: [buug] gim
In-Reply-To: <1024527887.43b22ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
References: <1024527887.43b22ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <861yb2uaub.fsf@speakeasy.org>

itz> gim is a replacement for gpm, the classic linux mouse
itz> multiplexor.

Brian> Sorry to have to ask, but what is a mouse multiplexor?

a word I made up to describe what gpm does :)

on BSDish systems it's called moused, I think.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A.
GPG: 433BA087  9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8  6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087
EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive.



From hedges at ucsd.edu  Thu Jun 20 11:21:05 2002
From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:21:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [buug] modprobing antiquated modules
In-Reply-To: <861yb2uaub.fsf@speakeasy.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206201411460.27548-100000@doit.scorpions.net>

I've read hints that loading modules compiled under older kernel
versions is in fact possible, but the modprobe and modules.conf
syntax is a little obtuse for me.  Anyone done this?

I have a driver for my Alcatel Speedtouch PC (PCI) ADSL modem
compiled by the driver manufacturer under linux 2.4.2-2
(RedHat/SuSE version 7.1).

I tried running it under RedHat 7.1 but it didn't work well, and
I want to try a patched version of pppd for newer pppoe that
only runs on kernels > 2.4.3.

I actually got the thing to connect once under slackware 2.4.2,
but it never worked again... timeout waiting for PADO packets.
I'm sort of flailing in the dark here but it helps to get back
into the swing of things to turn every stone.

So I reinstalled slackware 2.2.19 and upgraded to kernel 2.4.18.
Is it possible to load the 2.4.2 or 2.4.2-2 driver module?

`modprobe /lib/modules/misc/itex1483.o` keeps saying that the
module was not found.  `depmod` does warn of unresolved symbols,
but can I somehow use -q to generate a dependency file so
`modprobe` can use the module?  I also need to configure extra
insmod options to set the vci/vpi and framing.  Help?

--mark--




From itz at speakeasy.org  Thu Jun 20 11:37:34 2002
From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: 20 Jun 2002 11:37:34 -0700
Subject: [buug] modprobing antiquated modules
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206201411460.27548-100000@doit.scorpions.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206201411460.27548-100000@doit.scorpions.net>
Message-ID: <861yb16bkh.fsf@speakeasy.org>

Mark> I've read hints that loading modules compiled under older kernel
Mark> versions is in fact possible, but the modprobe and modules.conf
Mark> syntax is a little obtuse for me.  Anyone done this?

Is the kernel compiled with MODVERSIONS on?

-- 
Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A.
GPG: 433BA087  9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8  6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087
EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive.



From sobolak at myrealbox.com  Thu Jun 20 11:48:16 2002
From: sobolak at myrealbox.com (Brian Sobolak)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:48:16 -0500
Subject: [buug] modprobing antiquated modules
Message-ID: <1024598896.7c1a5ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>



>I have a driver for my Alcatel Speedtouch PC (PCI) ADSL modem compiled by the driver manufacturer under linux 2.4.2-2 (RedHat/SuSE version 7.1).

>I tried running it under RedHat 7.1 but it didn't work well, and I want to try a patched version of pppd for newer pppoe that only runs on kernels > 2.4.3.

Suggestion - buy a device that speaks PPPoE such as one of those firewall routers.  It's worth the time you'll save.

brian
--
Brian Sobolak
http://www.planetshwoop.com/
sobolak at myrealbox.com



From hedges at ucsd.edu  Fri Jun 21 11:41:11 2002
From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:41:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [buug] modprobing antiquated modules
In-Reply-To: <1024598896.7c1a5ff8sobolak@myrealbox.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206211439060.6078-100000@doit.scorpions.net>

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Brian Sobolak wrote:
> Suggestion - buy a device that speaks PPPoE such as one of
> those firewall routers.  It's worth the time you'll save.

That's a great idea.  Want to give me a job so I can afford it?


On 20 Jun 2002, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> Is the kernel compiled with MODVERSIONS on?

Yes, I selected all module support options.


--mark--




From itz at speakeasy.org  Fri Jun 21 15:06:08 2002
From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: 21 Jun 2002 15:06:08 -0700
Subject: [buug] modprobing antiquated modules
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206211439060.6078-100000@doit.scorpions.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206211439060.6078-100000@doit.scorpions.net>
Message-ID: <86n0tomgmn.fsf@speakeasy.org>

Mark> On 20 Jun 2002, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
>> Is the kernel compiled with MODVERSIONS on?

Mark> Yes, I selected all module support options.

Ok, so what it the version of the kernel, and where exactly is the
module in question installed?

I know you provided some of the information already, but it was buried
among too much other stuff, sorry.  This should be all that matters.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A.
GPG: 433BA087  9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8  6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087
EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive.



From hedges at ucsd.edu  Sat Jun 22 00:49:19 2002
From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:49:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [buug] modprobing antiquated modules
In-Reply-To: <86n0tomgmn.fsf@speakeasy.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206220331580.20297-100000@doit.scorpions.net>


On 21 Jun 2002, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> Ok, so what it the version of the kernel, and where exactly is the
> module in question installed?

Incidentally I can't insmod -f under kernel 2.4.18...  It
comes up with an unresolved dependency on 'tlec' or some such.

Module kernel version  2.4.2-2

Current kernel version 2.4.18

Module path /lib/modules/misc/itex1483-2.4.2-2.o

Trying to insmod the module compiled under 2.4.2 generates a
bunch of crazy errors and a segmentation fault, but loads the
driver anyway into a perpetually "initializing" state.

Maybe I should just try the kernel source for 2.4.3 and hope
it's less likely I'll get a symbol problem than with 2.4.18.

Or can I get it to stay quiet about the conflict?

Or can I get it to find the dependency from the 2.4.2 System.map
and load that module version without errors?

Maybe I should just find a DSL modem that connects to Ethernet...

Thanks for your "sage" advice though.  Argh.

Why I have to do this.... Under 2.4.2 or 2.4.2-2 the module
loads (I found versions for both), and when it loads, the data
light on the DSL card blinks and it reports data rates and a
live connection... but when I try to run pppoe the data light
never blinks, like it's not even sending the PADI packet, even
though it says it does and the response times out.  Some user
testimonial recommends that I try the elusive, patched (but not
versioned) pppd for pppoe, which claims it only works under
2.4.3 or higher.

--mark--




From itz at speakeasy.org  Sat Jun 22 12:41:59 2002
From: itz at speakeasy.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: 22 Jun 2002 12:41:59 -0700
Subject: [buug] modprobing antiquated modules
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206220331580.20297-100000@doit.scorpions.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206220331580.20297-100000@doit.scorpions.net>
Message-ID: <864rfvxfqw.fsf@speakeasy.org>

Mark> Incidentally I can't insmod -f under kernel 2.4.18...  It comes
Mark> up with an unresolved dependency on 'tlec' or some such.

Hmmm ...

kronstadt:~$ gid -f /var/local/id-utils/_usr_local_src_debian_linux.ID  -r '.*t[l1]ec.*'
kronstadt:~

perhaps another creation of the same manufacturer?

Mark> Module kernel version 2.4.2-2

Mark> Current kernel version 2.4.18

Mark> Module path /lib/modules/misc/itex1483-2.4.2-2.o

Mark> Trying to insmod the module compiled under 2.4.2 generates a
Mark> bunch of crazy errors and a segmentation fault, but loads the
Mark> driver anyway into a perpetually "initializing" state.

Mark> Maybe I should just try the kernel source for 2.4.3 and hope
Mark> it's less likely I'll get a symbol problem than with 2.4.18.

Mark> Or can I get it to stay quiet about the conflict?

Mark> Or can I get it to find the dependency from the 2.4.2 System.map
Mark> and load that module version without errors?

Can you get the source for the module?  It looks like it just won't
load the way it is compiled.  Even if you could deceive it by feeding
it the wrong System.map things would almost certainly break.

Mark> Maybe I should just find a DSL modem that connects to
Mark> Ethernet...

Mark> Thanks for your "sage" advice though.  Argh.

That wasn't me, that was Brian.  If you want to talk to me or someone
else with a passive-aggressive streak and keep it cool, you'd better
watch the attributions carefully ..

-- 
Ian Zimmerman, Oakland, California, U.S.A.
GPG: 433BA087  9C0F 194F 203A 63F7 B1B8  6E5A 8CA3 27DB 433B A087
EngSoc adopts market economy: cheap is wasteful, efficient is expensive.



From hedges at ucsd.edu  Sat Jun 22 22:12:35 2002
From: hedges at ucsd.edu (Mark Hedges)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 01:12:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [buug] modprobing antiquated modules
In-Reply-To: <864rfvxfqw.fsf@speakeasy.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0206230105310.2964-100000@doit.scorpions.net>


On 22 Jun 2002, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
>
> Can you get the source for the module?

Paranoid Windows commercial types.  Unsupported.  No response.
*sigh*

> Mark> Thanks for your "sage" advice though.  Argh.
>
> That wasn't me, that was Brian.  If you want to talk to me or someone
> else with a passive-aggressive streak and keep it cool, you'd better
> watch the attributions carefully ..

Ha ha.  Well, I'm going to trade in the card for an Ethernet DSL
device if the current round doesn't work; I want my network up.
Anyway, passive-aggressive IT workers, gosh, you don't see that
every day.  ;-)  Personally I'm tired of arguing angrily about
the obvious and the irrelevant.  I want my two cents back.

--mark--