From john at jjdev.com Sun Aug 1 16:23:04 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:23:04 -0700 Subject: [buug] turning off monitor in X Message-ID: <20040801232304.GA28037@stang.jjdev.com> I'm using a apple cinema display with a VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV25 [GeForce4 Ti 4200] (rev a3) anyone have a similar configuration and able to turn the monitor off with out turning off your computer? I can't get it to sleep or turn the backlight off I'm using the vesa driver (maybe this explains it) when I try to use the ati driver I get this error from X: (EE) Failed to load module "pex5" (module does not exist, 0) (EE) Failed to load module "xie" (module does not exist, 0) (EE) No devices detected. any ideas? -- Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO (or Linux) is the answer. http://www.livingwithoutmicrosoft.org/ http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml From atporter at primate.net Sun Aug 1 16:41:32 2004 From: atporter at primate.net (Aaron T Porter) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:41:32 -0700 Subject: [buug] turning off monitor in X In-Reply-To: <20040801232304.GA28037@stang.jjdev.com> References: <20040801232304.GA28037@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040801234132.GE18446@primate.net> On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 04:23:04PM -0700, johnd wrote: > anyone have a similar configuration and able to turn the monitor off with > out turning off your computer? Have you tried xset? `xset dpms force off` works for me (ATI Radeon with Dell 2001FP) From john at jjdev.com Sun Aug 1 21:05:33 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 21:05:33 -0700 Subject: [buug] turning off monitor in X In-Reply-To: <20040801234132.GE18446@primate.net> References: <20040801232304.GA28037@stang.jjdev.com> <20040801234132.GE18446@primate.net> Message-ID: <20040802040533.GA496@stang.jjdev.com> nope... On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 04:41:32PM -0700, Aaron T Porter wrote: > On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 04:23:04PM -0700, johnd wrote: > > > anyone have a similar configuration and able to turn the monitor off with > > out turning off your computer? > > Have you tried xset? `xset dpms force off` works for me (ATI > Radeon with Dell 2001FP) > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug -- Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO (or Linux) is the answer. http://www.livingwithoutmicrosoft.org/ http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml From grayarea at reddagger.org Tue Aug 3 08:04:19 2004 From: grayarea at reddagger.org (grayarea at reddagger.org) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:04:19 -0500 Subject: [buug] IDE drive problem Message-ID: <200408031504.i73F4JuZ025595@metal.reddagger.org> Folks, I have an ide problem I am having problems figuring out. I am working with a client's Proliant ML350 running RH 8. The main storage here is handled by a scsi raid. For various reasons, we installed a Maxtor DiamondMax Plus ultra ATA/133 7200/160gb. I am getting incredibly bad performance out of this subsystem. As in: [root at foghorn /]# hdparm -Tt /dev/hdb /dev/hdb: Timing buffer-cache reads: 128 MB in 0.26 seconds =492.31 MB/sec Timing buffered disk reads: 64 MB in 35.58 seconds = 1.80 MB/sec I have tried switching pretty much every mode of dma and udma the drive supports, and still no joy. The bios for this particular server, doesn't appear to have any dma settings. the hdparm information for the drive reports: Model=WDC WD2500JB-00EVA0, FwRev=15.05R15, SerialNo=WD-WMAEH2188747 Config={ HardSect NotMFM HdSw>15uSec SpinMotCtl Fixed DTR>5Mbs FmtGapReq } RawCHS=16383/16/63, TrkSize=57600, SectSize=600, ECCbytes=74 BuffType=DualPortCache, BuffSize=8192kB, MaxMultSect=16, MultSect=16 CurCHS=16383/16/63, CurSects=16514064, LBA=yes, LBAsects=268435455 IORDY=on/off, tPIO={min:120,w/IORDY:120}, tDMA={min:120,rec:120} PIO modes: pio0 pio1 pio2 pio3 pio4 DMA modes: mdma0 mdma1 mdma2 UDMA modes: udma0 udma1 udma2 udma3 udma4 *udma5 AdvancedPM=no WriteCache=enabled Drive conforms to: device does not report version: 1 2 3 4 5 6 If anyone has a clue what is wrong with this picture, and why I am getting such abysmal performance, could you point me in the right direction on fixing it? John P. Withers From grayarea at reddagger.org Tue Aug 3 08:42:57 2004 From: grayarea at reddagger.org (grayarea at reddagger.org) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:42:57 -0500 Subject: [buug] Ignore ide question... Message-ID: <200408031542.i73FgvqN025740@metal.reddagger.org> turns out the proliant series is built with a minimum of ide support. jpw From rmaues at argo.com.br Wed Aug 4 06:32:41 2004 From: rmaues at argo.com.br (Rodrigo Maues Rocha) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 09:32:41 -0400 Subject: [buug] Skype problems Message-ID: <4110E579.5010006@argo.com.br> All, It's my first message. I have a Evo N1020v compaq notebook with the 5.2.1 intalled and work fine. Last week a try to install a skype ported version. I found a problem with sound and find on web a found a skype forum where I see a message from Alexander Leidinger(ports maintainer). So, in this message Alexander talk about a problem with a freebsd sound system and recomend the use a patch make from him. OK, I do this, recompile my kernel and make a reboot. When start, my speakers have a constant sound. Alexander think that can be a problem with acpi. Here I need the both, skype and acpi. Any one have any idea to fix this?? thanks. -- +-------------------------------+ | Rodrigo Maues Rocha | +-------------------------------+ | Manaus - amazonas - Brasil | | | | Contatos : | | MSN : rmauesrocha at hotmail.com | | ICQ : 3679875 | | SKYPE : rmaues | +-------------------------------+ | | | Acreditar em tudo ou duvidar | | de tudo. Ambas sao formas de | | limitar o pensamento humano | | | +-------------------------------+ From john at jjdev.com Thu Aug 5 17:23:03 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:23:03 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug Message-ID: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> earlier I posted about ln -f not working...but it seemed to work for my test. this is what I mean: root at stang:/usr/src# ls -l total 34276 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 11 Apr 28 17:16 linux -> linux-2.6.5/ drwxr-xr-x 15 573 573 744 Apr 28 17:11 linux-2.4.25/ drwxrwxr-x 18 500 500 1152 Aug 5 17:21 linux-2.6.5/ drwxrwxr-x 18 500 500 624 Aug 5 17:20 linux-2.6.7/ -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 35092228 Aug 5 17:19 linux-2.6.7.tar.bz2 root at stang:/usr/src# ln -sf linux-2.6.7 linux root at stang:/usr/src# ls -l total 34276 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 11 Apr 28 17:16 linux -> linux-2.6.5/ drwxr-xr-x 15 573 573 744 Apr 28 17:11 linux-2.4.25/ drwxrwxr-x 18 500 500 1152 Aug 5 17:21 linux-2.6.5/ drwxrwxr-x 18 500 500 624 Aug 5 17:20 linux-2.6.7/ -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 35092228 Aug 5 17:19 linux-2.6.7.tar.bz2 root at stang:/usr/src# shouldn't ln -sf linux-2.6.7 linux make linux by a sym link to linux-2.6.7? -- John de la Garza Computer Support (714) 315-5499 http://jjdev.com/ From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Aug 5 18:12:55 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 18:12:55 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040806011254.GG5923@linuxmafia.com> Quoting johnd (john at jjdev.com): > root at stang:/usr/src# ls -l > total 34276 > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 11 Apr 28 17:16 linux -> linux-2.6.5/ > drwxr-xr-x 15 573 573 744 Apr 28 17:11 linux-2.4.25/ > drwxrwxr-x 18 500 500 1152 Aug 5 17:21 linux-2.6.5/ > drwxrwxr-x 18 500 500 624 Aug 5 17:20 linux-2.6.7/ > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 35092228 Aug 5 17:19 linux-2.6.7.tar.bz2 > root at stang:/usr/src# ln -sf linux-2.6.7 linux > root at stang:/usr/src# ls -l > total 34276 > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 11 Apr 28 17:16 linux -> linux-2.6.5/ > drwxr-xr-x 15 573 573 744 Apr 28 17:11 linux-2.4.25/ > drwxrwxr-x 18 500 500 1152 Aug 5 17:21 linux-2.6.5/ > drwxrwxr-x 18 500 500 624 Aug 5 17:20 linux-2.6.7/ > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 35092228 Aug 5 17:19 linux-2.6.7.tar.bz2 > root at stang:/usr/src# > > > shouldn't ln -sf linux-2.6.7 linux make linux by a sym link to linux-2.6.7? Interesting. It's surprising to me, too: alfredo:/usr/src# ls -l total 16 drwxr-xr-x 14 root root 4096 2004-04-09 02:50 kernel-source-2.4.17 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root src 20 2004-06-18 08:30 linux -> kernel-source-2.4.17 drwxr-xr-x 7 root root 4096 2004-04-08 11:17 rpm alfredo:/usr/src# mkdir foo alfredo:/usr/src# ln -sf foo linux alfredo:/usr/src# ls -l total 20 drwxr-sr-x 2 root src 4096 2004-08-05 10:11 foo drwxr-xr-x 14 root root 4096 2004-08-05 10:11 kernel-source-2.4.17 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root src 20 2004-06-18 08:30 linux -> kernel-source-2.4.17 drwxr-xr-x 7 root root 4096 2004-04-08 11:17 rpm alfredo:/usr/src# whoami root alfredo:/usr/src# rm linux alfredo:/usr/src# ln -s foo linux alfredo:/usr/src# ls -l total 20 drwxr-sr-x 2 root src 4096 2004-08-05 10:11 foo drwxr-xr-x 14 root root 4096 2004-08-05 10:11 kernel-source-2.4.17 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root src 3 2004-08-05 10:12 linux -> foo drwxr-xr-x 7 root root 4096 2004-04-08 11:17 rpm alfredo:/usr/src# From xtifr at debian.org Thu Aug 5 19:43:40 2004 From: xtifr at debian.org (Chris Waters) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 19:43:40 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 05:23:03PM -0700, johnd wrote: > root at stang:/usr/src# ls -l > total 34276 > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 11 Apr 28 17:16 linux -> linux-2.6.5/ [...] > root at stang:/usr/src# ln -sf linux-2.6.7 linux > root at stang:/usr/src# ls -l > total 34276 > lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 11 Apr 28 17:16 linux -> linux-2.6.5/ [...] That definitely looks like an unexpected result. I note that the time stamp didn't change. It appears as if the command is simply failing. Why, I don't know. Does "rm linux" work? If this is a networked drive, then you may simply lack permission to modify the directory. If it's local, but it's an ext2/3 volume, then you may have gotten the extended file attributes set somehow (see lsattr and chattr). Other file systems may have "bonus" features ilke that, such as Access Control Lists (ACLs). These days, root is only all-powerful for sufficiently small values of "all-powerful". If none of those suggestions prove useful or informative, you might want to start looking for signs of either, A) a breakin, or B) disk corruption. In fact, even if the suggestions do prove useful, they may still indicate possible corruption. I've had a failing drive spontaneously set random ext2 attribute bits on me in the past. -- Chris Waters | Pneumonoultra- osis is too long xtifr at debian.org | microscopicsilico- to fit into a single or xtifr at speakeasy.net | volcaniconi- standalone haiku From itz at buug.org Thu Aug 5 20:22:28 2004 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 05 Aug 2004 20:22:28 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806011254.GG5923@linuxmafia.com> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806011254.GG5923@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <87smb1j6h7.fsf@buug.org> Same here. Local drive, definitely clean, exit status of ln is 0. itz at unicorn:~$ uname -a Linux unicorn 2.4.26-2custom7 #1 Wed Jul 21 00:35:24 PDT 2004 i686 GNU/Linux -- "It's not true or not." A reality show producer (real quote) From mp at rawbw.com Thu Aug 5 23:25:33 2004 From: mp at rawbw.com (Michael Paoli) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 23:25:33 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <87smb1j6h7.fsf@buug.org> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806011254.GG5923@linuxmafia.com> <87smb1j6h7.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: <1091773533.4113245d8beaf@webmail.rawbw.com> Yes, definitely rather puzzling - at least at first glance. I confirmed I get similar behavior (did quick check with Linux 2.4.26 kernel on reiserfs filesystem). Not certain it's a "bug" at this point, but my first inclination would be to say it at least violates the "principle of least surprise". I also checked and noted the ln command also returns exit value 0. I'm inclined to do an strace and see what's happening at a lower level (call, arguments, and return value). Quoting Ian Zimmerman : > Same here. Local drive, definitely clean, exit status of ln is 0. > itz at unicorn:~$ uname -a > Linux unicorn 2.4.26-2custom7 #1 Wed Jul 21 00:35:24 PDT 2004 i686 > GNU/Linux From mp at rawbw.com Thu Aug 5 23:33:33 2004 From: mp at rawbw.com (Michael Paoli) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 23:33:33 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <1091773533.4113245d8beaf@webmail.rawbw.com> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806011254.GG5923@linuxmafia.com> <87smb1j6h7.fsf@buug.org> <1091773533.4113245d8beaf@webmail.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <1091774013.4113263dda56b@webmail.rawbw.com> And the answer is ... Well, first of all, when all else fails, RTFM :-) It looks like at some point in time ln(1) was "enhanced". E.g. from Debian 3.0r2: -n, --no-dereference treat destination that is a symlink to a directory as if it were a normal file So seems at least for some versions of ln, the default behavior now for ln is to dereference the target. Quoting Michael Paoli : > Yes, definitely rather puzzling - at least at first glance. > > I confirmed I get similar behavior (did quick check with Linux 2.4.26 > kernel on reiserfs filesystem). Not certain it's a "bug" at this point, > but my first inclination would be to say it at least violates the > "principle of least surprise". > I also checked and noted the ln command also returns exit value 0. > > I'm inclined to do an strace and see what's happening at a lower level > (call, arguments, and return value). > > Quoting Ian Zimmerman : > > > Same here. Local drive, definitely clean, exit status of ln is 0. > > itz at unicorn:~$ uname -a > > Linux unicorn 2.4.26-2custom7 #1 Wed Jul 21 00:35:24 PDT 2004 i686 > > GNU/Linux From grayarea at reddagger.org Fri Aug 6 12:21:15 2004 From: grayarea at reddagger.org (jwithers) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:21:15 -0700 Subject: [buug] Prisoners and Lightbulbs Message-ID: <1091820075.22380.744.camel@localhost> For those who were in on the discussion about this at the last meeting, apparently the expert on the prisoner/light bulb issue is William Wu, and he has worked out the algos on it. http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/papers/100prisonersLightBulb.pdf From grayarea at reddagger.org Fri Aug 6 12:44:02 2004 From: grayarea at reddagger.org (jwithers) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 12:44:02 -0700 Subject: [buug] The mysterious amanda forwards Message-ID: <1091821442.22384.751.camel@localhost> And for those who were listening to me whine about the mail going to some of my user accounts from the amanda account on one of my boxes for no apparent reason. I didn't pay enough attention to which headers are generated by the MUA and which ones were generated by the MTA. I was looking at a spoofed To: header. RFC822, pointed out to me by an associate, has become my new bedtime reading material. john withers From john at jjdev.com Fri Aug 6 13:13:02 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:13:02 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> Message-ID: <20040806201302.GA5046@stang.jjdev.com> On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 07:43:40PM -0700, Chris Waters wrote: > That definitely looks like an unexpected result. I note that the time > stamp didn't change. It appears as if the command is simply failing. > Why, I don't know. Does "rm linux" work? rm works, then ln -s works... it is a local drive From flarg at flarg.org Fri Aug 6 13:25:13 2004 From: flarg at flarg.org (Stefan Lasiewski) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040806202513.22432.qmail@web80602.mail.yahoo.com> --- johnd wrote: > shouldn't ln -sf linux-2.6.7 linux make linux by a sym link to linux-2.6.7? For me this will creates a bad symlink within the target's directory: % cd linux % ls -l linux-2.6.7 lrwxrwxrwx 1 500 500 11 Aug 6 13:02 linux-2.6.7 -> linux-2.6.7 If you ever run across the error "Too many symbolic links", look for a shell script which fails to delete the link before creating a new one: % ls linux/linux-2.6.7/ ls: linux/linux-2.6.7/: Too many symbolic links At my last job I had to fix this on 2000 systems running either Solaris, Tru64, OSF, AIX or RedHat. Easy to fix, a pain to debug! -= Stefan ===== ---- 'The art, or rather the knack of flying is learning to throw yourself to the ground and miss.' -Douglas Adams, THGTTG From xtifr at debian.org Fri Aug 6 13:48:50 2004 From: xtifr at debian.org (Chris Waters) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:48:50 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806201302.GA5046@stang.jjdev.com> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> <20040806201302.GA5046@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040806204850.GA14917@starless.xtnet> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:13:02PM -0700, johnd wrote: > On Thu, Aug 05, 2004 at 07:43:40PM -0700, Chris Waters wrote: > > That definitely looks like an unexpected result. I note that the time > > stamp didn't change. It appears as if the command is simply failing. > > Why, I don't know. Does "rm linux" work? > rm works, then ln -s works... > it is a local drive Yup, ok, I've managed to reproduce the effect. My initial test didn't show anything, but that's because my links weren't actually pointing anywhere. Once Rick and Ian reported the same problem, I looked a little closer, and here's what's happening: ~# mkdir d1 d2; ln -sf d1 link ~# ls -l link lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 2 Aug 6 13:43 link -> d1 ~# ls -l d1 total 0 ~# ln -sf d2 link ~# ls -l link lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 2 Aug 6 13:43 link -> d1 ~# ls -l d1 total 0 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 2 Aug 6 13:43 d2 -> d2 Note the last result. There's now a new link *inside* the directory pointed to by the old link! The behavior makes sense, in a way, but strongly violates the principle of least suprise IMO. I dunno, I'm curious what POSIX, LSB and SUS have to say about this (if anything). -- Chris Waters | Pneumonoultra- osis is too long xtifr at debian.org | microscopicsilico- to fit into a single or xtifr at speakeasy.net | volcaniconi- standalone haiku From xtifr at debian.org Fri Aug 6 14:10:51 2004 From: xtifr at debian.org (Chris Waters) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 14:10:51 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806204850.GA14917@starless.xtnet> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> <20040806201302.GA5046@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806204850.GA14917@starless.xtnet> Message-ID: <20040806211051.GB14917@starless.xtnet> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:48:50PM -0700, Chris Waters wrote: > Note the last result. There's now a new link *inside* the directory > pointed to by the old link! Followup to my own post: I just tried the same thing on FreeBSD, and got the same results, so apparently the behavior is considered correct by more than one -dev team. Now that I think about it, it is consistent with the behavior of cp and mv. So...maybe it doesn't violate the principle of least surprise as much as I originally thought. -- Chris Waters | Pneumonoultra- osis is too long xtifr at debian.org | microscopicsilico- to fit into a single or xtifr at speakeasy.net | volcaniconi- standalone haiku From john at jjdev.com Fri Aug 6 14:20:29 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 14:20:29 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806211051.GB14917@starless.xtnet> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> <20040806201302.GA5046@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806204850.GA14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806211051.GB14917@starless.xtnet> Message-ID: <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> the man page says -fis supposed to remove existing destination files. to me it seems that it doesn't On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 02:10:51PM -0700, Chris Waters wrote: > On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:48:50PM -0700, Chris Waters wrote: > > > Note the last result. There's now a new link *inside* the directory > > pointed to by the old link! > > Followup to my own post: I just tried the same thing on FreeBSD, and > got the same results, so apparently the behavior is considered correct > by more than one -dev team. > > Now that I think about it, it is consistent with the behavior of cp > and mv. So...maybe it doesn't violate the principle of least surprise > as much as I originally thought. > > -- > Chris Waters | Pneumonoultra- osis is too long > xtifr at debian.org | microscopicsilico- to fit into a single > or xtifr at speakeasy.net | volcaniconi- standalone haiku -- John de la Garza Computer Support (714) 315-5499 http://jjdev.com/ From flarg at flarg.org Fri Aug 6 15:12:23 2004 From: flarg at flarg.org (Stefan Lasiewski) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040806221223.80146.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> I think it will remove destination files, but not destination directories. While this may violate the principal of least suprises, I think it's designed that so you don't accidently blow away an active symlink. ... or something ... % touch file1 file2 % ln -fs --verbose file1 link1 create symbolic link `link1' to `file1' % ll -rw-r--r-- 1 Stefan L None 0 Aug 6 15:12 file1 -rw-r--r-- 1 Stefan L None 0 Aug 6 15:12 file2 lrwxrwxrwx 1 Stefan L None 5 Aug 6 15:12 link1 -> file1 % ln -fs --verbose file2 link1 create symbolic link `link1' to `file2' % ll -rw-r--r-- 1 Stefan L None 0 Aug 6 15:12 file1 -rw-r--r-- 1 Stefan L None 0 Aug 6 15:12 file2 lrwxrwxrwx 1 Stefan L None 5 Aug 6 15:12 link1 -> file2 Now with directories, the behavior is different: % mkdir dir1 dir2 % ln -fs --verbose dir1 link1 create symbolic link `link1' to `dir1' % ll drwxr-xr-x 2 Stefan L None 0 Aug 6 15:07 dir1 drwxr-xr-x 2 Stefan L None 0 Aug 6 15:07 dir2 lrwxrwxrwx 1 Stefan L None 4 Aug 6 15:07 link1 -> dir1 % ln -fs --verbose dir2 link1 create symbolic link `link1/dir2' to `dir2' % ll drwxr-xr-x 2 Stefan L None 0 Aug 6 15:07 dir1 drwxr-xr-x 2 Stefan L None 0 Aug 6 15:07 dir2 lrwxrwxrwx 1 Stefan L None 4 Aug 6 15:07 link1 -> dir1 % ll dir1 lrwxrwxrwx 1 Stefan L None 4 Aug 6 15:08 dir2 -> dir2 -= Stefan --- johnd wrote: > the man page says -fis supposed to remove existing destination files. > > to me it seems that it doesn't > > On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 02:10:51PM -0700, Chris Waters wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:48:50PM -0700, Chris Waters wrote: > > > > > Note the last result. There's now a new link *inside* the directory > > > pointed to by the old link! > > > > Followup to my own post: I just tried the same thing on FreeBSD, and > > got the same results, so apparently the behavior is considered correct > > by more than one -dev team. > > > > Now that I think about it, it is consistent with the behavior of cp > > and mv. So...maybe it doesn't violate the principle of least surprise > > as much as I originally thought. > > > > -- > > Chris Waters | Pneumonoultra- osis is too long > > xtifr at debian.org | microscopicsilico- to fit into a single > > or xtifr at speakeasy.net | volcaniconi- standalone haiku > > -- > John de la Garza > Computer Support > (714) 315-5499 > http://jjdev.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > ===== ---- 'The art, or rather the knack of flying is learning to throw yourself to the ground and miss.' -Douglas Adams, THGTTG From xtifr at debian.org Fri Aug 6 15:22:22 2004 From: xtifr at debian.org (Chris Waters) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:22:22 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> <20040806201302.GA5046@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806204850.GA14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806211051.GB14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040806222222.GC14917@starless.xtnet> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 02:20:29PM -0700, johnd wrote: > the man page says -fis supposed to remove existing destination files. > to me it seems that it doesn't Yes, well, you had three fairly expert people at least temporarily confused, so you certainly don't have to feel embarrassed about being confused yourself. The important point is that a symlink pointing to a directory is considered to be a directory, *not* a file. And -f doesn't remove existing directories--it only removes files. The confusing part is that symlinks are neither fish nor fowl; they're an odd beast with their own peculiar rules, and it's not always obvious when they're going to show fish-like behavior and when they're going to show fowl-like. (Er, directory-like and file-like, for those who find over-extended analogies annoying.) But the behavior of ln -f is consistent with the behavior of mv -f and cp -f (which also claim to remove existing destintation files, but won't overwrite your "linux" link either). The logic behind it all may become a little more obvious if you consider that some systems are set up with /tmp as a symlink. You still want all your scripts to act as if it were a directory. If ln, mv and cp treated symlinks to directories differently from directories, then a lot of stuff would break. Or to put it another way: symlnnks generally work as you would expect if you didn't know they were there. Unfortunately for you, in this case, you did know there was a symlink, so that messed up your expectations. -- Chris Waters | Pneumonoultra- osis is too long xtifr at debian.org | microscopicsilico- to fit into a single or xtifr at speakeasy.net | volcaniconi- standalone haiku From jammer at weak.org Fri Aug 6 15:26:14 2004 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:26:14 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806221223.80146.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806221223.80146.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040806222614.GC1142@weak.org> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 03:12:23PM -0700, Stefan Lasiewski wrote: > I think it will remove destination files, but not destination directories. > > While this may violate the principal of least suprises, I think it's designed > that so you don't accidently blow away an active symlink. ... or something Someone else already posted this, but what you really want is '-n' (--no-dereference); that way, it won't dereference the target if it's a symbolic link. So, ln -snf linux-2.6.7 linux Will do the right thing, even if there is already a 'linux' symlink. It won't, however, remove 'linux' if it's a real directory. As someone else pointed out, it will instead create a symbolic link inside the target directory with the same name as the source. The truth is in the man page, it just must be ferreted out: SYNOPSIS ln [OPTION]... TARGET [LINK_NAME] ln [OPTION]... TARGET... DIRECTORY ln [OPTION]... --target-directory=DIRECTORY TARGET... [...cut...] tory. When using the second form with more than one TAR? GET, the last argument must be a directory; create links in DIRECTORY to each TARGET. (Note that is doesn't say that "more than one TARGET" is necessary to invoke the second form.) -f, --force remove existing destination files (Note that it doesn't say anything about directories. Infer thusly that passing a directory as the last parameter will invoke the "second form".) -n, --no-dereference treat destination that is a symlink to a directory as if it were a normal file (Here's the option you want. Treat symlinks to directories as files, for the purpose of --force'ing their deletion.) Interpreting man pages is indeed an art. -Jon From rick at linuxmafia.com Fri Aug 6 15:36:59 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:36:59 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug In-Reply-To: <20040806222222.GC14917@starless.xtnet> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> <20040806201302.GA5046@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806204850.GA14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806211051.GB14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806222222.GC14917@starless.xtnet> Message-ID: <20040806223659.GM5923@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Chris Waters (xtifr at debian.org): > The important point is that a symlink pointing to a directory is > considered to be a directory, *not* a file. And -f doesn't remove > existing directories--it only removes files. Ah. So, if "ln -sf" had an "-r" option that functioned the way "rm -r" does, then doing "ln -sfr" would produce the behaviour johnd initially expected. From mp at rawbw.com Fri Aug 6 23:48:10 2004 From: mp at rawbw.com (Michael Paoli) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 23:48:10 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug (& standards, etc.) In-Reply-To: <20040806222614.GC1142@weak.org> References: <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806221223.80146.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> <20040806222614.GC1142@weak.org> Message-ID: <1091861290.41147b2ab95c8@webmail.rawbw.com> Quoting Jon McClintock : > On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 03:12:23PM -0700, Stefan Lasiewski wrote: > The truth is in the man page, it just must be ferreted out: > Interpreting man pages is indeed an art. Well, ... most of the time the man pages are correct, ... but not always. And then there's standards ... Well, I also peeked at a wee bit of standard reference material. I guess my general expectations with: ln -sf foo bar where bar is a symbolic link which resolves to a directory, would be that bar would generally be "removed" (unlinked). Perhaps that's my bias/expectations from the UNIX flavors I've mostly dealt with (at least historically). Some of the documentation seems to also suggest that at least historically there was a fair bit of variation in behavior and the particular behavior of even the same options. I also did a quick try on a Solaris 8 and HP-UX 11i v1 systems, ... with HP-UX 11i v1 I got the behavior I "expected" (it was unlinked), and with Solaris 8 I got the dereferenced behavior (link created in directory referenced by existing symbolic link target). To complicate the matter slighty more for Solaris 8, there are two ln commands - different pathnames, different options/behavior. I tend to think these things ought to be compatible. "Extensions" can be good/okay ... particularly when they do things "better" (don't violate principle of least surprise, do better / more useful things, etc.), ... but I generally expect (or at least want to expect) that relatively common basic options (e.g. -f and -s, and their use in combination) should give quite consistent results/behavior. In the case of ln, I'd expect and be least surprised if in the mentioned case of ln -sf, the target would be unlinked by default, and perhaps some other option could be added when dereferencing is desired (perhaps --dereference and a single option letter (perhaps -L ?)). Oh, it's also of note that the -n option, at least between Solaris and GNU, do rather significantly different things. I think the "good news" here is it appears these things are on relatively convergent paths - at least with regard to the most common options (-s and -f) (most notably some LSB deprecated features and most current LSB release candidate, and the most current specifications from The Open Group Specifications). references: The Open Group Base Specifications Issue 6, IEEE Std 1003.1, 2004 Edition: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/ln.html Linux Standard Base (LSB): Core Specification 2.0rc2 (release candidate 2): http://www.linuxbase.org/spec/booksets/LSB-Core/LSB-Core/command.html mostly refers to: ISO/IEC 9945:2003 Portable Operating System(POSIX)and The Single UNIX Specification(SUS) V3 on the matter of ln(1) LSB 1.3 (current standard): http://www.linuxbase.org/spec/refspecs/LSB_1.3.0/gLSB/gLSB/ln.html includes: LSB Deprecated Differences The behaviors specified in this section are expected to disappear from a future version of the LSB; applications should only use the non-LSB-deprecated behaviors. -n, --no-dereference treats destination that is a symlink to a directory as if it were a normal file. HP-UX 11i v1: http://docs.hp.com/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-90689/00/01/176-con.html HP-UX 11i v2: http://docs.hp.com/hpux/onlinedocs/B2355-60103/00/02/218-con.html Solaris 8: http://docs.sun.com/db/doc/806-0624/6j9vek59a?a=view Solaris 10: http://docs.sun.com/db/doc/816-5165/6mbb0m9hv?a=view GNU fileutils (used by Debian 3.0r2, and likely most other LINUX distributions): http://www.gnu.org/software/fileutils/doc/manual/html/fileutils.html#ln%20invocation (and remember, the N and U in GNU stands for Not Unix) http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug/2004-August/002503.html http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug/ From itz at buug.org Sat Aug 7 08:29:14 2004 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 07 Aug 2004 08:29:14 -0700 Subject: [buug] ln -sf bug (& standards, etc.) In-Reply-To: <1091861290.41147b2ab95c8@webmail.rawbw.com> References: <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806221223.80146.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> <20040806222614.GC1142@weak.org> <1091861290.41147b2ab95c8@webmail.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <878ycr6k6t.fsf@buug.org> Michael> I think the "good news" here is it appears these things are on Michael> relatively convergent paths - at least with regard to the most Michael> common options (-s and -f) (most notably some LSB deprecated Michael> features and most current LSB release candidate, and the most Michael> current specifications from The Open Group Specifications). Do you think GNU will remove the -n flag or reverse its semantics if it is removed by LSB? I bet against it. There's still the possibility that distributions will do it with a patch, but I don't like that much either, it breaks compiling from source. Scripts should probably work around by testing if the target is a symlink, and if so remove it first; and LSB should _not_ specify one behavior or the other, just leave it undefined. -- "It's not true or not." A reality show producer (real quote) From mp at rawbw.com Sat Aug 7 21:36:29 2004 From: mp at rawbw.com (Michael Paoli) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:36:29 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: ln -sf "bug" (& standards, etc.) In-Reply-To: <878ycr6k6t.fsf@buug.org> References: <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806221223.80146.qmail@web80606.mail.yahoo.com> <20040806222614.GC1142@weak.org> <1091861290.41147b2ab95c8@webmail.rawbw.com> <878ycr6k6t.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: <1091939789.4115adcdc23b0@webmail.rawbw.com> Quoting Ian Zimmerman : > Michael> I think the "good news" here is it appears these things are on > Michael> relatively convergent paths - at least with regard to the most > Michael> common options (-s and -f) (most notably some LSB deprecated > Michael> features and most current LSB release candidate, and the most > Michael> current specifications from The Open Group Specifications). > Do you think GNU will remove the -n flag or reverse its semantics if it > is removed by LSB? I bet against it. There's still the possibility > that distributions will do it with a patch, but I don't like that > much either, it breaks compiling from source. My best guestimate would be GNU would likely do one of these things: + Nothing + Since GNU doesn't do man pages, somewhere in the GNU info page, perhaps add a bit of information on either or both of: + other implementations of ln may use -n differently + other implementations of ln default to the GNU ln -n behavior + implement a compile time option to deprecate GNU's -n (have it silently ignored or issue a warning that it's being ignored but don't treat that as an error) and have GNU's current -n effect be the default behavior, and perhaps also add options (e.g. --dereference and -L) to give the old default behavior. Perhaps also make such a compile time option the default. Compile time option would also suitably adjust the info page (and other distributions/ports would appropriately update their man pages, etc.). + the above compile time option could also be something where an environment variable (e.g. POSIXLY_CORRECT) influences the behavior, but I think that would be a less preferred type of solution. If GNU doesn't change to match the LSB it seems likely distributions/ports will patch to eliminate conflicts with the LSB. At least if GNU adds a compile time option (even if it's not the default), that would significantly reduce downstream source divergence and patching. At least in my reading of it, seems GNU currently conflicts not only with LSB 2.0rc2 (likely to be finalized soon and become the official LSB standard) but also the current LSB 1.3 standard. The LSB 1.3 standard is defined mostly in terms of the Single UNIX Specification, Version 2, but with the -s from the Single UNIX Specification, Version 3. The remainder of LSB 1.3 gives options as "Deprecated Differences". At least if I read and give strict interpretation of LSB 1.3, I come to the conclusion that nothing in LSB 1.3 implies or states that dereferencing should be happening (other than it contains deprecated option to not dereference - I'd think that option should have no effect, according to my interpretation of LSB 1.3). Of course other interpretations are possible. Perhaps that's an error (specification not as intended or ambiguous) in the LSB 1.3 specification. On the GNU documentation (info page) since it gives options to not dereference (and no opposite option), it's implied that by default dereferencing occurs - so I don't see GNU being inconsistent with itself (just happens to not quite match to the LSB). > Scripts should probably work around by testing if the target is a > symlink, and if so remove it first; and LSB should _not_ specify one > behavior or the other, just leave it undefined. Yes, unfortunately, given the various (at least historic) implementations and behaviors, prudence would dictate that in most circumstances scripts should do relevant checking (existence of target and possibly type of target both not dereferenced and dereferenced, and/or testing the type/behavior of the ln command). Hmmmm... I wonder what the current Debian Sarge ln(1) behavior and documentation is. If it were to change "too late in the game", however, that might significantly break other things (but those "errors" should be limited to other non-LSB compliant scripts and such). references: The Single UNIX Specification, Version 2: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xcu/ln.html more references: http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug/2004-August/002520.html From mic at linefeed.org Mon Aug 9 18:44:10 2004 From: mic at linefeed.org (mic) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 18:44:10 -0700 Subject: [buug] newbie: configuring/installing gtk In-Reply-To: <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> <20040806201302.GA5046@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806204850.GA14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806211051.GB14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040810014409.GA89600@blackcat.linefeed.org> #trying to configure gtk 2.4.2 on debian box #--------------------------------------------------- root at mith:/home/mith/gtk# ./configure loading cache ./config.cache checking host system type... i686-pc-linux-gnu checking target system type... i686-pc-linux-gnu checking build system type... i686-pc-linux-gnu loading argument cache configarg.cache checking for --enable-gui... yes checking for --enable-universal... no checking for --enable-nanox... no checking for --enable-gtk2... no checking for --with-libpng... yes checking for --with-libjpeg... yes checking for toolkit... gtk checking for gcc... (cached) gcc checking whether the C compiler (gcc ) works... yes checking whether the C compiler (gcc ) is a cross-compiler... no checking whether we are using GNU C... (cached) yes checking whether gcc accepts -g... (cached) yes checking how to run the C preprocessor... (cached) gcc -E checking whether gcc needs -traditional... (cached) no checking for c++... (cached) c++ checking whether the C++ compiler (c++ ) works... yes checking whether the C++ compiler (c++ ) is a cross-compiler... no checking whether we are using GNU C++... (cached) yes checking whether c++ accepts -g... (cached) yes checking for ranlib... (cached) ranlib checking for ar... (cached) ar checking for a BSD compatible install... (cached) /usr/bin/install -c checking for strip... (cached) strip checking if make is GNU make... (cached) yes checking for bison... (cached) bison -y checking for flex... (cached) flex checking for yywrap in -lfl... (cached) yes checking whether ln -s works... (cached) yes checking for strings.h... (cached) yes checking for stdlib.h... (cached) yes checking for malloc.h... (cached) yes checking for unistd.h... (cached) yes checking for wchar.h... (cached) yes checking for fnmatch.h... (cached) yes checking for fnmatch... (cached) yes checking for langinfo.h... (cached) yes checking for X11/XKBlib.h... (cached) yes checking for working const... (cached) yes checking for inline... (cached) inline checking size of char... (cached) 1 checking size of short... (cached) 2 checking size of void *... (cached) 4 checking size of int... (cached) 4 checking size of long... (cached) 4 checking size of long long... (cached) 8 checking size of wchar_t... (cached) 4 checking for _FILE_OFFSET_BITS value needed for large files... (cached) 64 checking if large file support is available... yes checking whether byte ordering is bigendian... (cached) no checking how to run the C++ preprocessor... (cached) c++ -E checking for iostream... (cached) yes checking if C++ compiler supports bool... (cached) yes checking if C++ compiler supports the explicit keyword... (cached) yes checking for glibc 2.1 or later... yes checking for regex.h... yes checking for regcomp... yes checking for zlib.h >= 1.1.4... yes checking for deflate in -lz... yes checking for png.h > 0.90... yes checking for png_check_sig in -lpng... yes checking for jpeglib.h... yes checking for jpeg_read_header in -ljpeg... yes checking for tiffio.h... no configure: warning: system tiff library not found, will use built-in instead checking for GTK+ version... checking for gtk-config... no checking for GTK - version >= 1.2.7... no *** The gtk-config script installed by GTK could not be found *** If GTK was installed in PREFIX, make sure PREFIX/bin is in *** your path, or set the GTK_CONFIG environment variable to the *** full path to gtk-config. checking for gtk-config... (cached) no checking for GTK - version >= 1.2.3... no *** The gtk-config script installed by GTK could not be found *** If GTK was installed in PREFIX, make sure PREFIX/bin is in *** your path, or set the GTK_CONFIG environment variable to the *** full path to gtk-config. configure: error: Please check that gtk-config is in path, the directory where GTK+ libraries are installed (returned by 'gtk-config --libs' command) is in LD_LIBRARY_PATH or equivalent variable and GTK+ is version 1.2.3 or above. root at mith:/home/mith/gtk# gtk-config --libs bash: gtk-config: command not found root at mith:/home/mith/gtk# which gtk-config root at mith:/home/mith/gtk# #dont know if this is cool? #----------------------------------------- root at mith:/home/mith/gtk# echo $GTK_CONFIG /usr/lib #but appearantly im uptodate on this: #-------------------------------------------- root at mith:/home/mith/round2# apt-get install libwxgtk2.2 Reading Package Lists... Done Building Dependency Tree... Done libwxgtk2.2 is already the newest version. 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 249 not upgraded. anyone got ideas on what should i do here? and general tricks of the trade to trouble shoot this problem that i am missing here? i'm about to take off, will revisit in 3 or four hours thanks mic From xtifr at debian.org Mon Aug 9 20:10:18 2004 From: xtifr at debian.org (Chris Waters) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 20:10:18 -0700 Subject: [buug] newbie: configuring/installing gtk In-Reply-To: <20040810014409.GA89600@blackcat.linefeed.org> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> <20040806201302.GA5046@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806204850.GA14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806211051.GB14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> <20040810014409.GA89600@blackcat.linefeed.org> Message-ID: <20040810031018.GA6226@starless.xtnet> On Mon, Aug 09, 2004 at 06:44:10PM -0700, mic wrote: > #but appearantly im uptodate on this: > #-------------------------------------------- > root at mith:/home/mith/round2# apt-get install libwxgtk2.2 > Reading Package Lists... Done > Building Dependency Tree... Done > libwxgtk2.2 is already the newest version. > 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 249 not upgraded. The library packages only contain the files needed at run-time by applications. If you want to compile or do development, you need the corresponding -dev packages, e.g. libwxgtk2.2-dev HTH -- Chris Waters | Pneumonoultra- osis is too long xtifr at debian.org | microscopicsilico- to fit into a single or xtifr at speakeasy.net | volcaniconi- standalone haiku From itz at buug.org Tue Aug 10 07:53:03 2004 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 10 Aug 2004 07:53:03 -0700 Subject: [buug] Wanted: SCSI external disk drive enclosure Message-ID: <87k6w7f3jk.fsf@buug.org> Not much to say here. Well, if there's a disk to go with it, great, but it will depend on capacity. Not a big fan of ebay nowadays. -- "It's not true or not." A reality show producer (real quote) From jzitt at josephzitt.com Tue Aug 10 12:21:41 2004 From: jzitt at josephzitt.com (Joseph Zitt) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:21:41 -0700 Subject: [buug] Resolving host Message-ID: <1092165701.3067.249.camel@adsl-69-107-78-60.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net> I know that this is something that I used to know, but the answer is eluding me now. I'm finding that in using my browsers, I have to resolve hosts far too often, sometimes on every access to a given host, even within moments of the last one. I should be caching this somehow, and probably have to set one thing somewhere, but forget what. Clues? I'm running Mandrake 10.0 Official, mostly using the Mozilla Firefox 0.8 browser. $ uname -a Linux adsl-69-107-78-60.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net 2.6.3-14mdk #1 Fri Jun 18 01:22:49 MDT 2004 i686 unknown unknown GNU/Linux Thanks for any enlightenment. From itz at buug.org Tue Aug 10 21:10:10 2004 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 10 Aug 2004 21:10:10 -0700 Subject: [buug] Resolving host In-Reply-To: <1092165701.3067.249.camel@adsl-69-107-78-60.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net> References: <1092165701.3067.249.camel@adsl-69-107-78-60.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <87acx28gd9.fsf@buug.org> Joseph> I'm finding that in using my browsers, I have to resolve hosts Joseph> far too often, sometimes on every access to a given host, even Joseph> within moments of the last one. I should be caching this Joseph> somehow, and probably have to set one thing somewhere, but Joseph> forget what. Clues? Joseph> I'm running Mandrake 10.0 Official, mostly using the Mozilla Joseph> Firefox 0.8 browser. I don't know about any setting in Mozilla that causes it to cache DNS information internally, but I haven't looked too hard. I always run a local caching name server. It doesn't have to be BIND. I have been very happy with dnsmasq for at least a year. -- "It's not true or not." A reality show producer (real quote) From mp at rawbw.com Tue Aug 10 23:36:46 2004 From: mp at rawbw.com (Michael Paoli) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:36:46 -0700 Subject: [buug] Resolving host In-Reply-To: <87acx28gd9.fsf@buug.org> References: <1092165701.3067.249.camel@adsl-69-107-78-60.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net> <87acx28gd9.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: <1092206206.4119be7e4b20d@webmail.rawbw.com> Quoting Ian Zimmerman : > Joseph> I'm finding that in using my browsers, I have to resolve hosts > Joseph> far too often, sometimes on every access to a given host, even > Joseph> within moments of the last one. I should be caching this > Joseph> somehow, and probably have to set one thing somewhere, but > Joseph> forget what. Clues? > Joseph> I'm running Mandrake 10.0 Official, mostly using the Mozilla > Joseph> Firefox 0.8 browser. > I don't know about any setting in Mozilla that causes it to cache DNS > information internally, but I haven't looked too hard. > I always run a local caching name server. It doesn't have to be BIND. > I have been very happy with dnsmasq for at least a year. If you do some type of caching only or caching mostly nameserver, you get the DNS caching benefits for at least the entire host in most regards. This will often show significant performance enhancements, particularly where slow link(s) are involved and many of the resolver requests are repetitive. Relevant placement of caching only/mostly nameservers can also significantly reduce DNS requests that are external or traverse slow, expensive or congested links. If one doesn't have or can't find handy enough references on caching only/mostly nameserver configuration, one can always pick apart a Debian .deb package easily enough. If one doesn't typically deal with *.deb files - they're in ar(1) format ... and within that some files are tar(1)ed and gzip(1)ed. The Debian stuff seems to mostly use caching only/mostly configurations by default, so looking over how Debian does some of the basic configuration stuff could be useful. references/excerpts: resolver(5) nsswitch.conf(5) named(8) http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_packages.pl?keywords=bind9&searchon=names&version=all&release=all From crazylion at vip.sina.com Wed Aug 11 05:20:18 2004 From: crazylion at vip.sina.com (George Wong) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:20:18 +0800 Subject: [buug] About OSS program Message-ID: <200408111221.i7BCL8bi007955@weak.org> I am doing VOIP modules of a project. There are some troubles when I program after I reading some articles. After Linux booting, the results of lsmod is: Module Size Used by Not tainted i810_audio 27720 0 (autoclean) ac97_codec 13640 0 (autoclean) [i810_audio] soundcore 6404 2 (autoclean) [i810_audio] There is no error if I do "cat /dev/dsp > hello" and "cat hello > /dev/dsp". But if I try to open () device, it will display "cannot open device: resource or device busy". The result of lsmod is Module Size Used by Not tainted i810_audio 27720 1 (autoclean) ac97_codec 13640 0 (autoclean) [i810_audio] soundcore 6404 2 (autoclean) [i810_audio] I wrote a short piece of test function. As following: /*-------open_test.c--------*/ #include #include #include #include #include #include #define DEVICE "/dev/audio" int main() { int fd=-1; char cmd[10]; fd = open(DEVICE,O_RDWR); printf("The file descriptor is %d\n",fd); if( fd == -1 ) { fprintf(stderr,"\nUnable to open audio device.\n"); fflush(stderr); } printf("Please enter command :"); scanf("Please enter command %s",cmd); if(!strcmp(cmd,"quit")) { close(fd); printf("Has already close the device\n"); } return 0; } The running result is: The file descriptor is -1 Unable to open audio device. I want to ask four questions: 1. After booting, soundcore was used by 2 programs (maybe modules), which they are? How could I find them out? Is it important for the situation that I cannot open audio device using open (2)? 2. Why I cannot open device in following situation? Module Size Used by Not tainted i810_audio 27720 0 (autoclean) ac97_codec 13640 0 (autoclean) [i810_audio] soundcore 6404 2 (autoclean) [i810_audio] And why I could play cd and mp3 in the situation? And I read the code of xmms, it is also using open(2), and why the xmms could open the device and I cannot? 3. A record program which I wrote could run on an embedded platform which we used in project. And I tried char buffer and unsigned buffer, everything is OK. But if I transmit the buffer on the Ethernet, whatever UDP broadcast or TCP streams, I can hear nothing. I doubt that it is the fault of type of buffer, I switch char to unsigned char or unsigned char to char, but it's no use. I am puzzle about which type should I use? I check IPP which is a product of Intel, is define many types of buffer, such as char, unsigned char, short int, int etc. I am not sure which type is best for my application. Is it according to rate, frequency, channel etc. which I set? 4. I try to recompile the kernel, check if it is the faults of driver. But I always encounter some odd error, such as parse error, parameter error etc. We meet this kind of error when we develop the driver of camera under Linux on embedded system. I think the code of kernel should be correct, if it has errors, how does zImage compiled when I install the Linux? My system is redhat9 on TOSHIBA satellite3000. Following is the record program which used to test: /*-------try.c-----------*/ #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #define LENGTH 3 /* The second which record */ #define RATE 8000 /* Sample frequency */ #define SIZE 16 /* bit */ #define CHANNELS 2 /* Channel */ /* the buffer used to load audio */ //unsigned char buf[LENGTH*RATE*SIZE*CHANNELS/8]; short buf[LENGTH*RATE*SIZE*CHANNELS/8]; int main() { int fd; /* File descriptor of device */ int arg; /* Argument used in ioctl */ int status; /* Return value */ /* Open device */ fd = open("/dev/dsp", O_RDWR); if (fd < 0) { perror("open of /dev/dsp failed"); exit(1); } /* Set sample bit */ arg = SIZE; status = ioctl(fd, SOUND_PCM_WRITE_BITS, &arg); if (status == -1) perror("SOUND_PCM_WRITE_BITS ioctl failed"); if (arg != SIZE) perror("unable to set sample size"); /* Set channel */ arg = CHANNELS; status = ioctl(fd, SOUND_PCM_WRITE_CHANNELS, &arg); if (status == -1) perror("SOUND_PCM_WRITE_CHANNELS ioctl failed"); if (arg != CHANNELS) perror("unable to set number of channels"); /* Set rate */ arg = RATE; status = ioctl(fd, SOUND_PCM_WRITE_RATE, &arg); if (status == -1) perror("SOUND_PCM_WRITE_WRITE ioctl failed"); /* Loop, until press Control-C */ while (1) { status = read(fd, buf, sizeof(buf)); /* Record */ printf("The record size if %d\n",status); if (status != sizeof(buf)) perror("read wrong number of bytes"); for(status=0;status<20;status++) printf("%d:%d\n",status,buf[status]); printf("You said:\n"); status = write(fd, buf, sizeof(buf)); /* Playback */ printf("The replay size if %d\n",status); if (status != sizeof(buf)) perror("wrote wrong number of bytes"); /* Waiting for playback end before record */ status = ioctl(fd, SOUND_PCM_SYNC, 0); if (status == -1) perror("SOUND_PCM_SYNC ioctl failed"); } } From mp at rawbw.com Wed Aug 11 07:00:03 2004 From: mp at rawbw.com (Michael Paoli) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 07:00:03 -0700 Subject: [buug] Re: /dev/dsp, /dev/audio, open(2), ... (About OSS program) In-Reply-To: <200408111221.i7BCL8bi007955@weak.org> References: <200408111221.i7BCL8bi007955@weak.org> Message-ID: <1092232802.411a2663040cd@webmail.rawbw.com> Quoting George Wong : > There is no error if I do "cat /dev/dsp > hello" and "cat hello > /dev/dsp". > But if I try to open () device, it will display "cannot open device: resource > or device busy". The result of lsmod is > #define DEVICE "/dev/audio" > fd = open(DEVICE,O_RDWR); You're using two different pathnames - /dev/dsp and /dev/audio. I'm not sure which distribution/kernel you're using, but at least when I peek at my configuration, those pathnames are both distinct files and distinct devices (different inodes, different minor numbers). You might also use strace(1) to investigate the varous programs. Perhaps different flags are being used in the open(2), e.g. O_RDONLY vs. O_WRONLY vs. O_RDWR, and perhaps that's a factor. fuser(1) and/or lsof(8) might also possibly be useful. From bferrell at baywinds.org Wed Aug 11 07:02:59 2004 From: bferrell at baywinds.org (Bruce Ferrell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 07:02:59 -0700 Subject: [buug] Wanted: SCSI external disk drive enclosure In-Reply-To: <87k6w7f3jk.fsf@buug.org> References: <87k6w7f3jk.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: <411A2713.7050702@baywinds.org> have you checked out weird stuff warehouse? Ian Zimmerman wrote: > Not much to say here. Well, if there's a disk to go with it, great, > but it will depend on capacity. > > Not a big fan of ebay nowadays. > From mic at linefeed.org Thu Aug 12 10:23:07 2004 From: mic at linefeed.org (mic) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:23:07 -0700 Subject: [buug] newbie: configuring/installing gtk In-Reply-To: <20040810031018.GA6226@starless.xtnet> References: <20040806002303.GA526@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806024340.GA8272@starless.xtnet> <20040806201302.GA5046@stang.jjdev.com> <20040806204850.GA14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806211051.GB14917@starless.xtnet> <20040806212029.GA5748@stang.jjdev.com> <20040810014409.GA89600@blackcat.linefeed.org> <20040810031018.GA6226@starless.xtnet> Message-ID: <20040812172307.GA53687@blackcat.linefeed.org> On Mon, 08/09/04 at 8:10PM +0000, Chris Waters wrote: > > The library packages only contain the files needed at run-time by > applications. If you want to compile or do development, you need the > corresponding -dev packages, e.g. libwxgtk2.2-dev is there a way i can force an install. or unstall pkgs to make this work? i get: -------------------------------------------------------------- root at mith:/home/mith# apt-get install libwxgtk2.2-dev Reading Package Lists... Done Building Dependency Tree... Done Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable distribution that some required packages have not yet been created or been moved out of Incoming. Since you only requested a single operation it is extremely likely that the package is simply not installable and a bug report against that package should be filed. The following information may help to resolve the situation: The following packages have unmet dependencies: libwxgtk2.2-dev: Depends: libgtk1.2-dev but it is not going to be installed E: Broken packages ------------------------------------------------------------- i've tried to then apt-get install libgtk1.2-dev but i get the same unmet dependencies error, depending upon libglib1.2-dev. till finally i get roadblocked by: ------------------------------------------------------------- root at mith:/home/mith# apt-get install libglib1.2-dev Reading Package Lists... Done Building Dependency Tree... Done Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable distribution that some required packages have not yet been created or been moved out of Incoming. Since you only requested a single operation it is extremely likely that the package is simply not installable and a bug report against that package should be filed. The following information may help to resolve the situation: The following packages have unmet dependencies: libglib1.2-dev: Depends: libglib1.2 (= 1.2.10-9) but 1.2.10-ximian.2 is to be installed E: Broken packages ------------------------------------------------------------- ideas? thanks mic From crazylion at vip.sina.com Sun Aug 15 10:44:59 2004 From: crazylion at vip.sina.com (George Wong) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:44:59 +0800 Subject: [buug] Where is my /dev/sndstat? Message-ID: <200408151745.i7FHjTvI011219@weak.org> Why I cannot cat /dev/sndstat? It display "The device not exists" Could anybody give me some clues? From shiro at uclink4.berkeley.edu Sun Aug 15 13:08:41 2004 From: shiro at uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erik Shirokoff) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:08:41 -0700 Subject: [buug] Where is my /dev/sndstat? In-Reply-To: <200408151745.i7FHjTvI011219@weak.org> References: <200408151745.i7FHjTvI011219@weak.org> Message-ID: <20040815200841.GA12205@jabberwock.hopto.org> Are you using alsa? If so, does cat /proc/asound/oss/sndstat give you what you need? - Erik On Mon, Aug 16, 2004 at 01:44:59AM +0800, George Wong wrote: > Why I cannot cat /dev/sndstat? > It display "The device not exists" > Could anybody give me some clues? -- Erik Shirokoff shiro at socrates.berkeley.edu From crazylion at vip.sina.com Mon Aug 16 00:41:39 2004 From: crazylion at vip.sina.com (george0873) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:41:39 +0800 Subject: [buug] Where is my /dev/sndstat? Message-ID: <20040816074139.16516.qmail@vip.sina.com.cn> Yes, I could listen mp3 and CD. And I could hear "sound test". I do [root at localhost proc]# modprobe snd-pcm-oss modprobe: Can't locate module snd-pcm-oss [root at localhost proc]# modprobe snd-mixer-oss modprobe: Can't locate module snd-mixer-oss I think my driver is not ALSA. Maybe OSS. But I not sure. All my configurations are defaults while install OS. ----- Original Message ----- From:Will Lowe To:George Wong Subject:Re: [buug] Where is my /dev/sndstat? Date:Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:49:52 +0800 > Does sound work? > > If you're using ALSA you may need to "modprobe snd-pcm-oss > snd-mixer-oss" to get the oldschool OSS-compatible /dev/ nodes to > work. > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2004 at 01:44:59AM +0800, George Wong wrote: > > Why I cannot cat /dev/sndstat? > > It display "The device not exists" > > Could anybody give me some clues? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Buug mailing list > > Buug at weak.org > > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > > -- > thanks, > > Will > > ______________________________________ =================================================================== From crazylion at vip.sina.com Mon Aug 16 00:42:37 2004 From: crazylion at vip.sina.com (george0873) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:42:37 +0800 Subject: [buug] Where is my /dev/sndstat? Message-ID: <20040816074237.16602.qmail@vip.sina.com.cn> I think my driver is not ALSA~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From:Erik Shirokoff To:Berkeley Unix User group Subject:Re: [buug] Where is my /dev/sndstat? Date:Mon, 16 Aug 2004 04:08:41 +0800 > Are you using alsa? > > If so, does > > cat /proc/asound/oss/sndstat > > give you what you need? > > > - Erik > > > On Mon, Aug 16, 2004 at 01:44:59AM +0800, George Wong wrote: > > Why I cannot cat /dev/sndstat? > > It display "The device not exists" > > Could anybody give me some clues? > > > > -- > Erik Shirokoff > shiro at socrates.berkeley.edu > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug > > ______________________________________ =================================================================== From xtifr at debian.org Sun Aug 15 11:32:44 2004 From: xtifr at debian.org (Chris Waters) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:32:44 -0700 Subject: [buug] Where is my /dev/sndstat? In-Reply-To: <200408151745.i7FHjTvI011219@weak.org> References: <200408151745.i7FHjTvI011219@weak.org> Message-ID: <20040815183244.GA826@starless.xtnet> On Mon, Aug 16, 2004 at 01:44:59AM +0800, George Wong wrote: > Why I cannot cat /dev/sndstat? > It display "The device not exists" > Could anybody give me some clues? It's essentially obsolete, and no longer supported by most sound drivers. Don't worry about it. -- Chris Waters | Pneumonoultra- osis is too long xtifr at debian.org | microscopicsilico- to fit into a single or xtifr at speakeasy.net | volcaniconi- standalone haiku From crazylion at vip.sina.com Tue Aug 17 22:01:15 2004 From: crazylion at vip.sina.com (george0873) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:01:15 +0800 Subject: [buug] about static library error Message-ID: <20040818050115.2649.qmail@vip.sina.com.cn> I wrote a audio library. I make a static library. The makefile as following: ///////////Makefile//////////// CC = gcc AR = ar OBJS = GWAbase.o GWAhandler.o CFLAGS = -Wstrict-prototypes -Wall -Wunused -O3 COMPILE = $(CC)$(CLAGS) -c SOURCE = GWAbase.cpp GWAhandler.cpp HEADER = GWAbase.h GWAdefs.h GWAinc.h GWAhandler.h TARGET = ./.lib/libgwa.a $(TARGET): $(OBJS) $(AR) r $(TARGET) $(OBJS) $(OBJS): $(HEADER) %.o:%.c $(COMPILE) -o $@ $< all: $(TARGET) echo "The libgwa.a locate in .lib/" clean: rm -f $(OBJS) $(TARGET) ////////////End of the Makefile//////////////// I wrote a program to test the library. The program as following: ////////////record.cpp//////////////// #include "GWAdefs.h" #include "GWAhandler.h" int main( int argc, char** argv) { GWA8u buffer[4096]; GWAhandler gwa; while(1) { gwa.GetAudioInput( buffer, AFMT_S16_LE, 2, 8000 ); gwa.RecordIntoFile( buffer, "audio" ); } } /////////////End of file record.cpp/////////////////// The makefile is: /////////////Makefile//////////////// CC = gcc TARGET = record OBJS = record.o SRC = record.cpp all: $(TARGET) $(TARGET): $(OBJS) $(CC) -o $(TARGET) $(OBJS) -L../GWAudiolib/.lib/ -lgwa $(OBJS): $(SRC) $(CC) -c $(SRC) -o $(OBJS) -I../GWAudiolib/ clean: rm -f $(OBJS) $(TARGET) /////////////End of the Makefile////////////// While I make, error occurs ************************ gcc -c record.cpp -o record.o -I../GWAudiolib/ gcc -o record record.o -L../GWAudiolib/.lib/ -lgwa record.o(.eh_frame+0x12): undefined reference to `__gxx_personality_v0' ../GWAudiolib/.lib//libgwa.a(GWAhandler.o)(.eh_frame+0x11): undefined reference to `__gxx_personality_v0' ../GWAudiolib/.lib//libgwa.a(GWAbase.o)(.eh_frame+0x11): undefined reference to `__gxx_personality_v0' collect2: ld returned 1 exit status make: *** [record] Error 1 make: Target `all' not remade because of errors. I don't understand, it is the fault of lib or program? ______________________________________ =================================================================== From john at jjdev.com Wed Aug 18 17:38:03 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:38:03 -0700 Subject: [buug] dual headed X Message-ID: <20040819003803.GA20880@stang.jjdev.com> Anyone ever get a nVidia Corporation NV17GL [Quadro4 200/400 NVS] to work with X using two monitors? I have this in my xorg.conf file Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "nvidia" Monitor "vs" DefaultDepth 24 Subsection "Display" Depth 24 Modes "1280x1024" "1024x768" ViewPort 0 0 EndSubsection EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen1" Device "nvidia" Monitor "hp" DefaultDepth 16 Subsection "Display" Depth 16 Modes "1024x768" ViewPort 0 0 EndSubsection EndSection and this: Section "ServerLayout" Identifier "XFree86 Configured" Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 Screen 1 "Screen1" RightOf "Screen0" InputDevice "Mouse1" "CorePointer" InputDevice "Keyboard1" "CoreKeyboard" EndSection From crazylion at vip.sina.com Wed Aug 18 23:59:49 2004 From: crazylion at vip.sina.com (george0873) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:59:49 +0800 Subject: [buug] Broadcast error Message-ID: <20040819065950.25718.qmail@vip.sina.com.cn> I tried a broadcast program example on a book which name is . It could run on Fedaro2 in one of machines in my Lab(in local mode,127.255.255.255:9097 and also specified broadcast address). But it cannot run on my machine which os is redhat9. Clients cannot receive messages from server no matter in local or remote mode. What problem it could be? The test result: My machine: #./stksrv 127.255.255.255:9097 & #./gquotes 127.255.255.255:9097 Before recvfrom After recvfrom Invalid argument:recvfrom(2) The same result will be given if I run stksrv on that fedaro2 machine and run client on a remote machine. George Wong =================================================================== From john at jjdev.com Thu Aug 19 14:59:28 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:59:28 -0700 Subject: [buug] X dual head solved Message-ID: <20040819215928.GA25577@stang.jjdev.com> got X working with dual heads on nvidia quadro 4 I need the bus id -- John de la Garza Computer Support (714) 315-5499 http://jjdev.com/ From crazylion at vip.sina.com Tue Aug 24 12:25:57 2004 From: crazylion at vip.sina.com (George Wong) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 03:25:57 +0800 Subject: [buug] Cannot receive broadcast,why? Message-ID: <412B9645.8030907@vip.sina.com> My system is redhat9. It cannot receive broadcast packages, I am sure the broadcast server send packages. I have already turned off the firewall. I think there is a configuration which don't allow to receive broadcast packages. But I don't know where I can find it? From john at jjdev.com Fri Aug 27 13:35:00 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:35:00 -0700 Subject: [buug] software system needed Message-ID: <20040827203500.GA5672@stang.jjdev.com> I am trying to put together a system where many independent contractors of a certain type can be part of. If I need to find someone in a certain area to help me I could search for someone based on location and see their resumes and possible some kind of rating. Also, I could have some forums where people could help each other out answer quests etc...something searchable. I am considering the following: 1. plone 2. phpnuke 3. postnuke 4. making my own (probably with java/jsp/servlets) any opinions? it need to be open-source and be UNIX based -- John de la Garza Computer Support (714) 315-5499 http://jjdev.com/ From brian at planetshwoop.com Fri Aug 27 14:01:34 2004 From: brian at planetshwoop.com (Brian Sobolak) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:01:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [buug] software system needed In-Reply-To: <20040827203500.GA5672@stang.jjdev.com> References: <20040827203500.GA5672@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <57285.4.17.250.5.1093640494.squirrel@4.17.250.5> johnd said: > > I am trying to put together a system where many independent contractors of > a certain type can be part of. If I need to find someone in a certain > area > to help me I could search for someone based on location and see their > resumes and possible some kind of rating. > > Also, I could have some forums where people could help each other out > answer quests etc...something searchable. > > I am considering the following: > > 1. plone > 2. phpnuke > 3. postnuke > 4. making my own (probably with java/jsp/servlets) > > any opinions? I don't know the full extent of what you're trying to do, but php-groupware might be an option too. They have a lot of tools for allowing people to collaborate on projects. brian -- Brian Sobolak http://www.planetshwoop.com/ From xtifr at debian.org Fri Aug 27 14:17:53 2004 From: xtifr at debian.org (Chris Waters) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:17:53 -0700 Subject: [buug] software system needed In-Reply-To: <20040827203500.GA5672@stang.jjdev.com> References: <20040827203500.GA5672@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040827211753.GA31213@starless.xtnet> On Fri, Aug 27, 2004 at 01:35:00PM -0700, johnd wrote: > 4. making my own (probably with java/jsp/servlets) > it need to be open-source and be UNIX based These requirements seem a bit contradictory - java isn't open-source (unless you're planning to use gjc or kaffe). I found zope (which is what plone is based on) to be very pleasant to work with, but I haven't done anything as extensive as what it sounds like you're planning. -- Chris Waters | Pneumonoultra- osis is too long xtifr at debian.org | microscopicsilico- to fit into a single or xtifr at speakeasy.net | volcaniconi- standalone haiku From grayarea at reddagger.org Fri Aug 27 14:25:43 2004 From: grayarea at reddagger.org (jwithers) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:25:43 -0700 Subject: [buug] software system needed In-Reply-To: <57285.4.17.250.5.1093640494.squirrel@4.17.250.5> References: <20040827203500.GA5672@stang.jjdev.com> <57285.4.17.250.5.1093640494.squirrel@4.17.250.5> Message-ID: <1093641943.2443.213.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2004-08-27 at 14:01, Brian Sobolak wrote: > I don't know the full extent of what you're trying to do, but > php-groupware might be an option too. They have a lot of tools for > allowing people to collaborate on projects. > > brian > Yeah, it isn't a bad package in some ways. The only thing to keep in mind is that things seem to have gone to hell in a handbasket since the group split into eGroupWare and phpGroupWare and I haven't seen much movement out of the phpGroupWare folk. Given that various security uglies pop up with this package from time to time, I would be kinda leery about a dev community that doesn't seem to have it's act in a basket. But, hey, that is just me. jpw > > > -- > Brian Sobolak > http://www.planetshwoop.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Buug mailing list > Buug at weak.org > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug From grayarea at reddagger.org Fri Aug 27 14:26:12 2004 From: grayarea at reddagger.org (jwithers) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:26:12 -0700 Subject: [buug] software system needed In-Reply-To: <20040827203500.GA5672@stang.jjdev.com> References: <20040827203500.GA5672@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <1093641972.2443.215.camel@localhost> Don't make your own. Reinventing the wheel for a "simple" web app is much more effort in the long run than the learning curve for the tool. Been there, done that way too much. Maintainability and extensibility always end up being much easier with the well used solution suites. And I would go with Plone, but I am hardcore python person and have a lot of experience with Zope, so take it for what it is worth. The only problem is that the learning for Zope can be a bit steep. However, most of the stuff you are talking about is pretty close to out of the box with zope/plone. Actually, there is another problem, depending on your perspective. You need to realize up front that Zope/Plone doesn't use the file system to store things. In the end, everything lives in the zope object database. ZODB is fairly well crafted and cool, but if you have to have things outside of zope and your web interface playing with your data for some reason, you have to come up with a connector. Which can be a pain in the butt. There are ways around this, but they require some knowledge and effort to implement. jpw On Fri, 2004-08-27 at 13:35, johnd wrote: > I am trying to put together a system where many independent contractors of > a certain type can be part of. If I need to find someone in a certain area > to help me I could search for someone based on location and see their > resumes and possible some kind of rating. > > Also, I could have some forums where people could help each other out > answer quests etc...something searchable. > > I am considering the following: > > 1. plone > 2. phpnuke > 3. postnuke > 4. making my own (probably with java/jsp/servlets) > > any opinions? > > it need to be open-source and be UNIX based From john at jjdev.com Fri Aug 27 16:04:00 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:04:00 -0700 Subject: [buug] software system needed In-Reply-To: <57285.4.17.250.5.1093640494.squirrel@4.17.250.5> References: <20040827203500.GA5672@stang.jjdev.com> <57285.4.17.250.5.1093640494.squirrel@4.17.250.5> Message-ID: <20040827230400.GA6481@stang.jjdev.com> no collaboration will be done... I'd just like to be able to find people that I could get to do a job for me in a certain area if I couldn't get out there On Fri, Aug 27, 2004 at 04:01:34PM -0500, Brian Sobolak wrote: > > johnd said: > > > > I am trying to put together a system where many independent contractors of > > a certain type can be part of. If I need to find someone in a certain > > area > > to help me I could search for someone based on location and see their > > resumes and possible some kind of rating. > > > > Also, I could have some forums where people could help each other out > > answer quests etc...something searchable. > > > > I am considering the following: > > > > 1. plone > > 2. phpnuke > > 3. postnuke > > 4. making my own (probably with java/jsp/servlets) > > > > any opinions? > > I don't know the full extent of what you're trying to do, but > php-groupware might be an option too. They have a lot of tools for > allowing people to collaborate on projects. > > brian > > > > -- > Brian Sobolak > http://www.planetshwoop.com/ -- John de la Garza Computer Support (714) 315-5499 http://jjdev.com/ From john at jjdev.com Fri Aug 27 16:14:19 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:14:19 -0700 Subject: [buug] software system needed In-Reply-To: <20040827211753.GA31213@starless.xtnet> References: <20040827203500.GA5672@stang.jjdev.com> <20040827211753.GA31213@starless.xtnet> Message-ID: <20040827231419.GB6481@stang.jjdev.com> On Fri, Aug 27, 2004 at 02:17:53PM -0700, Chris Waters wrote: > On Fri, Aug 27, 2004 at 01:35:00PM -0700, johnd wrote: > > > 4. making my own (probably with java/jsp/servlets) > > > it need to be open-source and be UNIX based > > These requirements seem a bit contradictory - java isn't open-source > (unless you're planning to use gjc or kaffe). > > I found zope (which is what plone is based on) to be very pleasant to > work with, but I haven't done anything as extensive as what it sounds > like you're planning. I proably wasn't clear...writing my own software is my last choice, I do want a opensource package instead. obviously I'm not going to find something out there already done that I would write with jsp/servlets I though apache tomcat is an open source, maybe I'm wrong but again I am looking for something already existing that is opensource I could get a open source tool that would run under java, but I'd prefer not to do that. If I end up doing it my self I'd use java because I could probably get it done faster that way because I'm alread familure with it. I just don't want a proprietary system or have to purchase the software to do this site. I allready have a JVM to run tomcat on, and I wont concernm myself with modifying the JVM, just the tool I am requesting. From john at jjdev.com Fri Aug 27 16:58:48 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:58:48 -0700 Subject: [buug] hardware load balancing vs software Message-ID: <20040827235847.GA6735@stang.jjdev.com> at my company we have a 'web-switch' for one example...traffic comes in and it balances bewteen two apache servers each apache load balances across 4 tomcat servers... Wouldn't it be better to just have the webswitch do all the load balancing? either by going straight to the tomcats (we proxy %100 of the traffic) or if we need apache, to have 8 instances of apache..or a multiple of that running virtual hosts? maybe two apache servers for redundancy each one running 4 virt hosts basically what I'm curious about is if we have a hardware loadbalancer do we need to do more software loadbalancing? -- John de la Garza Computer Support (714) 315-5499 http://jjdev.com/ From flarg at flarg.org Fri Aug 27 22:21:02 2004 From: flarg at flarg.org (Stefan Lasiewski) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [buug] hardware load balancing vs software In-Reply-To: <20040827235847.GA6735@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040828052102.18852.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> --- johnd wrote: > at my company we have a 'web-switch' > > for one example...traffic comes in and it balances bewteen two > apache servers > > each apache load balances across 4 tomcat servers... > > Wouldn't it be better to just have the webswitch do all the load balancing? What is the goal? Simplicity or speed? Removing the Apaches will certainly simplify the network, but then you will lose the power of Apache and might dump more processing on Tomcat, which might slow everything down. Also, the webswitch will do the load balancing regardless if it's talking to Apache or Tomcat, right? In most networks, Apache really doesn't add much to the latency. The load-balancing algorithm is pretty simple-- I think the module polls the Tomcats once per minute or if there is a timeout. > either by going straight to the tomcats (we proxy %100 of the traffic) Plenty of people run their sites directly off tomcat, but I'm not sure if the HTTP engine within Tomcat is intended to be an efficient HTTP server. Also, are you sure you want Tomcat to handle the images and flat html files? It's often more efficient to let Apache handle the static content and let Tomcat deal with the dynamic JSPs. > or if we need apache, to have 8 instances of apache..or a multiple of that > running virtual hosts? > > maybe two apache servers for redundancy each one running 4 virt hosts > > basically what I'm curious about is if we have a hardware loadbalancer > do we need to do more software loadbalancing? If you have two or more Tomcats you would still need a way to evenly distribute the requests, so software loadbalancing would still be necessary between the Apache & Tomcat. ===== ---- 'The art, or rather the knack of flying is learning to throw yourself to the ground and miss.' -Douglas Adams, THGTTG From john at jjdev.com Sat Aug 28 07:33:47 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (John de la Garza) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:33:47 -0700 Subject: [buug] hardware load balancing vs software In-Reply-To: <20040828052102.18852.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040828052102.18852.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <458B776C-F8FF-11D8-8C81-000393CB11D4@jjdev.com> I'm not asking if we should use tomcat or apache Im asking if we should use a hardware loadbalancer or apache to load balance apache will be used regardless On Aug 27, 2004, at 10:21 PM, Stefan Lasiewski wrote: > --- johnd wrote: > >> at my company we have a 'web-switch' >> >> for one example...traffic comes in and it balances bewteen two >> apache servers >> >> each apache load balances across 4 tomcat servers... >> >> Wouldn't it be better to just have the webswitch do all the load >> balancing? > > What is the goal? Simplicity or speed? Removing the Apaches will > certainly > simplify the network, but then you will lose the power of Apache and > might > dump more processing on Tomcat, which might slow everything down. > > Also, the webswitch will do the load balancing regardless if it's > talking to > Apache or Tomcat, right? > > In most networks, Apache really doesn't add much to the latency. The > load-balancing algorithm is pretty simple-- I think the module polls > the > Tomcats once per minute or if there is a timeout. > >> either by going straight to the tomcats (we proxy %100 of the traffic) > > Plenty of people run their sites directly off tomcat, but I'm not sure > if the > HTTP engine within Tomcat is intended to be an efficient HTTP server. > Also, > are you sure you want Tomcat to handle the images and flat html files? > It's > often more efficient to let Apache handle the static content and let > Tomcat > deal with the dynamic JSPs. > >> or if we need apache, to have 8 instances of apache..or a multiple of >> that >> running virtual hosts? >> >> maybe two apache servers for redundancy each one running 4 virt hosts >> >> basically what I'm curious about is if we have a hardware loadbalancer >> do we need to do more software loadbalancing? > > If you have two or more Tomcats you would still need a way to evenly > distribute the requests, so software loadbalancing would still be > necessary > between the Apache & Tomcat. > > > ===== > ---- > 'The art, or rather the knack > of flying is learning to throw > yourself to the ground and miss.' > -Douglas Adams, THGTTG From rushans at brc2.com Tue Aug 31 17:40:15 2004 From: rushans at brc2.com (Neal Samarakkody) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:40:15 -0500 Subject: [buug] hardware load balancing vs software In-Reply-To: <458B776C-F8FF-11D8-8C81-000393CB11D4@jjdev.com> References: <20040828052102.18852.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> <458B776C-F8FF-11D8-8C81-000393CB11D4@jjdev.com> Message-ID: <41351A6F.9040200@brc2.com> John de la Garza wrote: > I'm not asking if we should use tomcat or apache > > Im asking if we should use a hardware loadbalancer or apache to load > balance > > apache will be used regardless the easiest way to do load balancing between webservers is to have dns do the work. having the same name like www point to different ip's will cause dns to cycle through the list of ip's for a certain name as requests arrive. actually, this is the manner in which bind behaves. i am assuming most other dns daemons behave similarly. so you do not need a hardware load balancer or apache to do load balancing. ~rushan From john at jjdev.com Tue Aug 31 17:51:40 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:51:40 -0700 Subject: [buug] hardware load balancing vs software In-Reply-To: <41351A6F.9040200@brc2.com> References: <20040828052102.18852.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com> <458B776C-F8FF-11D8-8C81-000393CB11D4@jjdev.com> <41351A6F.9040200@brc2.com> Message-ID: <20040901005140.GA16080@stang.jjdev.com> our system (hardware and software) knows not to send traffic to boxes that our down if I did this and a server went down, bind would still give the ip out and teh client would get a error On Tue, Aug 31, 2004 at 07:40:15PM -0500, Neal Samarakkody wrote: > John de la Garza wrote: > >I'm not asking if we should use tomcat or apache > > > >Im asking if we should use a hardware loadbalancer or apache to load > >balance > > > >apache will be used regardless > > the easiest way to do load balancing between webservers is to have dns > do the work. having the same name like www point to different ip's will > cause dns to cycle through the list of ip's for a certain name as > requests arrive. actually, this is the manner in which bind behaves. i > am assuming most other dns daemons behave similarly. > > so you do not need a hardware load balancer or apache to do load balancing. > > ~rushan -- John de la Garza Computer Support (714) 315-5499 http://jjdev.com/