From mp at rawbw.com Wed Mar 3 14:02:15 2004 From: mp at rawbw.com (Michael Paoli) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:02:15 -0800 Subject: [buug] CDs (KNOPPIX_V3.3-2004-02-16-EN, etc.), gpg, etc. Message-ID: <1078351335.404655e76a305@webmail.rawbw.com> I'll likely bring CDs again (CD-RW media) of Debian and Knoppix to the BUUG meeting, similar to before. Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 r2 "Woody" - Official i386 Binary-1 CD (just the first CD, not the set - enough to do more than a basic install, anyway). And also: KNOPPIX_V3.3-2004-02-16-EN I may also have some limited quantities of older revisions/releases. $2.00 USD each (media + jewel or slim-jewel case) more details from before: http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug/2003-December/002263.html I'll likely also bring stuff for gpg/PGP keysinging, if anyone wants to do that that hasn't done that yet. From george at metaart.org Wed Mar 3 19:24:22 2004 From: george at metaart.org (George Woolley) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:24:22 -0800 Subject: [buug] Regex Talk in Berkeley: Tu March 9 Message-ID: <200403031924.22238.george@metaart.org> Author, Tony Stubblebine, will be giving a talk on "Regular Expression Best Practices" in Berkeley on the evening on Tuesday, March 9th at an Oakland Perl Mongers meeting that starts at 7:30pm. Tony's ideas of best practices are not resticted to Perl. For details (directions and much more), see http://oakland.pm.org/ You are welcome to email me with any questions you may have. George From artkennedy1 at cox.net Fri Mar 5 11:32:05 2004 From: artkennedy1 at cox.net (Arthur Kennedy) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 11:32:05 -0800 Subject: [buug] request Message-ID: I need Kent Howard's email address. if you prefer to notify him first, include message "Help! Arthur kennedy" tnx, AK From jzitt at josephzitt.com Sat Mar 6 21:57:28 2004 From: jzitt at josephzitt.com (jzitt at josephzitt.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 00:57:28 -0500 Subject: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell Message-ID: <199540-2200430755728568@M2W085.mail2web.com> I seem to have gotten my system into a bizarrely hosed state. I first tried to upgrade the box from RedHat 9 to Fedora Core 1 (I no longer recall why). Doing so caused it to lose all my desktop settings and no longer recognize the soundcard. So I gave up on that and tried to upgrade to Mandrake 9.2, having understood that to be relatively foolproof. It wasn't. The system now bombs out while trying to boot. I recall seeing several permissions errors on /dev. And it throws me into having to do maintenance as root when it's unable to do an fsck on /dev/hda2. When I go in as root, I see that /dev has no hda or hda2. Following what documentation I've understood, I try to create that with the mknod command, after which I can do the fsck. But when I come out of the root shell and reboot, /dev/hda2 is gone again. However, when I boot up from a Knoppix Live CD and look at what's in its /mnt/hda2/dev directory, I see thousands of items, as opposed to the couple of dozen that would show up for it under Mandrake, including knoppix at ttyp0[log]$ sudo ls -l /mnt/hda2/dev/hda* brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 0 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 1 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda1 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 10 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda10 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 11 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda11 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 12 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda12 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 13 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda13 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 14 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda14 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 15 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda15 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 16 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda16 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 2 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda2 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 3 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda3 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 4 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda4 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 5 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda5 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 6 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda6 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 7 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda7 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 8 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda8 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 3, 9 Feb 28 23:10 /mnt/hda2/dev/hda9 knoppix at ttyp0[log]$ Does this mean that the items are there but that Mandrake refuses to see them, or that Knoppix is creating them but destroying them when it shuts down, or... uh... something else? I understand that these are, in some mystical way, files-but-not-files, but what that means in a practical sense is a complete mystery. Is there anyway to turn this back into a usable, bootable machine? I am well beyond frustration here, and the people I tell about this keep asking me why I don't just get an operating system that works. If I weren't locked into Linux (as far as I can understand) by having 100 GB of data on an ext3 filesystem that other OS's can't read, I'd be sorely tempted to give up and get back to actually using my computer instead of having to spend all my time configuring, debugging, and yelling at it. Is there any further information I can provide? I am off the edge of my knowledge and, after 7 years of slamming my head against trying to get Linux systems working, quite near the edge of my patience. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From jan at caustic.org Sat Mar 6 22:05:31 2004 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:05:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell In-Reply-To: <199540-2200430755728568@M2W085.mail2web.com> References: <199540-2200430755728568@M2W085.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040306220058.D2055@pogo.caustic.org> 1: it's hosed. give up, reinstall. 2: upgrading between distrobutions is pretty much impossible, not to mention very likely to break everything. 3: when doing major changes like this, you're best off starting over. more advice: back up your data before putting it at risk. rebuilds are faster than recoveries, 8 out of 10 times. once you've chosen a distribution of linux, stick with it. From jzitt at josephzitt.com Sat Mar 6 22:48:47 2004 From: jzitt at josephzitt.com (jzitt at josephzitt.com) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 01:48:47 -0500 Subject: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell Message-ID: <410-2200430764847532@M2W065.mail2web.com> So is there a practical way to back up 100 GB of data given a single slow CD-R burner and no network? Original Message: ----------------- From: f.johan.beisser jan at caustic.org Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:05:31 -0800 (PST) To: jzitt at josephzitt.com, buug at weak.org Subject: Re: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell 1: it's hosed. give up, reinstall. 2: upgrading between distrobutions is pretty much impossible, not to mention very likely to break everything. 3: when doing major changes like this, you're best off starting over. more advice: back up your data before putting it at risk. rebuilds are faster than recoveries, 8 out of 10 times. once you've chosen a distribution of linux, stick with it. _______________________________________________ Buug mailing list Buug at weak.org http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From jan at caustic.org Sat Mar 6 23:05:34 2004 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 23:05:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell In-Reply-To: <410-2200430764847532@M2W065.mail2web.com> References: <410-2200430764847532@M2W065.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040306230207.F2055@pogo.caustic.org> On Sun, 7 Mar 2004, jzitt at josephzitt.com wrote: > So is there a practical way to back up 100 GB of data given a single slow > CD-R burner and no network? yes. you may want to try to put it on a spare hard drive. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ The other day I asked former Yankees pitcher Jim Bouton what he thought of our great victory over Iraq, and he said, "Mohammed Ali versus Mr. Rogers." -- kurt vonnegut, 5.9.03 From nick at zork.net Sun Mar 7 08:06:47 2004 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 08:06:47 -0800 Subject: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell In-Reply-To: <410-2200430764847532@M2W065.mail2web.com> References: <410-2200430764847532@M2W065.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040307160647.GC13653@zork.net> begin jzitt at josephzitt.com quotation: > So is there a practical way to back up 100 GB of data given a single slow > CD-R burner and no network? It's called a "tape drive", and you ought to install one. -- "Forget the damned motor car and build cities for lovers and friends." -- Lewis Mumford end From itz at buug.org Sun Mar 7 08:21:59 2004 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 07 Mar 2004 08:21:59 -0800 Subject: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell In-Reply-To: <199540-2200430755728568@M2W085.mail2web.com> References: <199540-2200430755728568@M2W085.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <87n06s8w60.fsf@buug.org> Joe> So I gave up on that and tried to upgrade to Mandrake 9.2, having Joe> understood that to be relatively foolproof. It wasn't. The system Joe> now bombs out while trying to boot. I recall seeing several Joe> permissions errors on /dev. And it throws me into having to do Joe> maintenance as root when it's unable to do an fsck on Joe> /dev/hda2. When I go in as root, I see that /dev has no hda or Joe> hda2. Following what documentation I've understood, I try to create Joe> that with the mknod command, after which I can do the fsck. But Joe> when I come out of the root shell and reboot, /dev/hda2 is gone Joe> again. Joe> However, when I boot up from a Knoppix Live CD and look at what's Joe> in its /mnt/hda2/dev directory, I see thousands of items, as Joe> opposed to the couple of dozen that would show up for it under Joe> Mandrake, including Joe> Does this mean that the items are there but that Mandrake refuses Joe> to see them, or that Knoppix is creating them but destroying them Joe> when it shuts down, or... uh... something else? I understand that Joe> these are, in some mystical way, files-but-not-files, but what that Joe> means in a practical sense is a complete mystery. Joe> Is there anyway to turn this back into a usable, bootable machine? Joe> I am well beyond frustration here, and the people I tell about this Joe> keep asking me why I don't just get an operating system that Joe> works. If I weren't locked into Linux (as far as I can understand) Joe> by having 100 GB of data on an ext3 filesystem that other OS's Joe> can't read, I'd be sorely tempted to give up and get back to Joe> actually using my computer instead of having to spend all my time Joe> configuring, debugging, and yelling at it. Joe> Is there any further information I can provide? I am off the edge Joe> of my knowledge and, after 7 years of slamming my head against Joe> trying to get Linux systems working, quite near the edge of my Joe> patience. If it still matters, likely keywords to look for are initrd and devfs. -- Nothing can be explained to a stone. Or to a stoned person, either. From mp at rawbw.com Sun Mar 7 15:05:36 2004 From: mp at rawbw.com (Michael Paoli) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 15:05:36 -0800 Subject: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell Message-ID: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> ======================================================================== > Message-ID: <199540-2200430755728568 at M2W085.mail2web.com> > Reply-To: jzitt at josephzitt.com > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell > Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 00:57:28 -0500 > I seem to have gotten my system into a bizarrely hosed state. I first tried > to upgrade the box from RedHat 9 to Fedora Core 1 (I no longer recall why). Ouch - I wouldn't recommend "upgrading" (if one can call it that) between operating systems or distributions that aren't official upgrade paths, unless one is well skilled in administration of both starting and target operating systems/distributions and one is also very willing to risk loss of all the data involved in the attempt and willing to work through potentially a lot of headaches to actually get all the kinks worked out (if it does in fact turn out to be reasonably, or at least semi-feasiblely, possible). > So I gave up on that and tried to upgrade to Mandrake 9.2, having > understood that to be relatively foolproof. It wasn't. The system now bombs > However, when I boot up from a Knoppix Live CD and look at what's in its > mystical way, files-but-not-files, but what that means in a practical sense > is a complete mystery. ... yes, device files, see my comment above about "well skilled in administration of both starting and target operating systems/distributions", etc. > Is there anyway to turn this back into a usable, bootable machine? I am Yes, do a complete restore from the full backup you made just before you started your "upgrade" attempts. > Is there any further information I can provide? I am off the edge of my > knowledge and, after 7 years of slamming my head against trying to get > Linux systems working, quite near the edge of my patience. 7 years is a relatively long time, try refining the technique (e.g. less head slamming). Perhaps hindsight's always 20/20, but ... -perhaps a bit more research might have helped a lot (i.e. research the relative ease vs. difficulty of the "upgrade" one is contemplating, perhaps even asking quite specific version/configuration detailed questions in advance and gathering a consensus (or at least plurality) of opinions and experience -backup, backup, backup; and periodically test backups and that one has everything necessary to do a full "cold metal" recovery; don't forget to cover off-site issues and it may be prudent to backup in manner(s) which give one more flexibility in recovery (e.g. to potentially significantly different hardware or configuration) -I'll skip attempts at analogy (which would probably be poor anyway), but what you attempted in my estimate (I'm not a Red Hat and Fedora expert, so my estimate may be off a fair bit) is probably rather to quite non-trivial, and perhaps even relatively infeasible. Adding Mandrake, etc., to your initial "upgrade" actions also doesn't exactly act to simplify the situation. It's not the type of "upgrade" I would attempt without first doing a lot of research, being willing to potentially use/waste a lot of time on it, and being prepared and willing to possibly discard the results (or attempts thereof), restore from backup, and pick another route from there. ======================================================================== ] From: "f.johan.beisser" ] To: "jzitt at josephzitt.com" ] cc: buug at weak.org ] Subject: Re: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell ] In-Reply-To: <199540-2200430755728568 at M2W085.mail2web.com> ] Message-ID: <20040306220058.D2055 at pogo.caustic.org> ] References: <199540-2200430755728568 at M2W085.mail2web.com> ] Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:05:31 -0800 (PST) ] 1: it's hosed. give up, reinstall. I'm inclined to concur. ] 2: upgrading between distrobutions is pretty much impossible, not to ] mention very likely to break everything. At best, highly risky. I'm aware of some tools to go between certain specific distributions, but I'd still consider doing such to generally be quite risky. ] 3: when doing major changes like this, you're best off starting over. Essentially agreed. I'd think for such a change, where one wanted to preserve as much data, "environment", etc., as possible, and with such significantly different distributions, I would be more inclined to do a "fresh" installation of the target distribution, then carefully merge in selected data from backup of the prior distribution (e.g. things that likely aren't distribution specific - such as most of the contents of user's home directories, ... the 100GiB or so of data that was mentioned - less all the Red Hat specific stuff (e.g. personal movie/sound archives, or whatever's taking up the bulk of that space). ] back up your data before putting it at risk. Yup, ... like frequently; e.g. if it's on a hard drive (especially just one), it's at risk. ] rebuilds are faster than recoveries, 8 out of 10 times. I guess here I'm inclined to both agree and disagree, but perhaps it's semantics. In any case, certainly doing a clean fresh install is typically faster and easier than doing a complex conversion/migration (which is really what was attempted - not an "upgrade" in the conventional sense). Recoveries may or may not be fast - really depends a lot on what's involved, what one is recovering to, and what one is recovering from. ] once you've chosen a distribution of linux, stick with it. Yes, for the most part that's much easier than trying to jump distributions with data and matching up configurations and all. If one does the LINUX systems administration, I'd also recommend however, one learn - at least generally - what is the same and different among LINUX distributions, so at least one can have a rough estimation of the difficulty of switching distributions (so one might better evaluate when it might actually make sense - and when it (generally) doesn't). ======================================================================== > Message-ID: <410-2200430764847532 at M2W065.mail2web.com> > Reply-To: jzitt at josephzitt.com > From: "jzitt at josephzitt.com" > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell > Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 01:48:47 -0500 > So is there a practical way to back up 100 GB of data given a single slow > CD-R burner and no network? Not particularly. One needs to asses costs and risks. When that hard drive irrecoverablely and without warning dies (or the server catches fire), how are you going to restore your data? What's it worth to you (both monetarily and willingness to spend how much time to ensure that it's backed up "often enough"). ======================================================================== ] From: "f.johan.beisser" ] To: "jzitt at josephzitt.com" ] cc: buug at weak.org ] Subject: Re: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell ] In-Reply-To: <410-2200430764847532 at M2W065.mail2web.com> ] Message-ID: <20040306230207.F2055 at pogo.caustic.org> ] References: <410-2200430764847532 at M2W065.mail2web.com> ] Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 23:05:34 -0800 (PST) ] yes. you may want to try to put it on a spare hard drive. Well, for some cost/risk tradeoffs, that may be satisfactory. It does have key drawbacks such as: -if there are only two hard drives, and something goes quite wrong during backup, all data may be lost -if significant problem/corruption/loss is discovered latently in the data, one may not have a sufficiently old backup to recover the data (or even analyze the history of the problem). -if the backup hard drives is transported, it's relatively fragile, if not there's greater probability of simultaneous loss of both original and backup. Of course it's still better than no backup :-) ======================================================================== } From: Nick Moffitt } To: buug at weak.org } Subject: Re: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell } Message-ID: <20040307160647.GC13653 at zork.net> } References: <410-2200430764847532 at M2W065.mail2web.com> } In-Reply-To: <410-2200430764847532 at M2W065.mail2web.com> } Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 08:06:47 -0800 } It's called a "tape drive", and you ought to install one. Absolutely. Still the best "general" solution (but not always the best cost/risk tradeoff for all scenarios). ======================================================================== ) To: buug at weak.org ) Subject: Re: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell ) References: <199540-2200430755728568 at M2W085.mail2web.com> ) From: Ian Zimmerman ) In-Reply-To: <199540-2200430755728568 at M2W085.mail2web.com> ) Message-ID: <87n06s8w60.fsf at buug.org> ) Date: 07 Mar 2004 08:21:59 -0800 ) If it still matters, likely keywords to look for are initrd and devfs. I'll also add these comments: -"user" data, e.g. most of the data in user's home directories may be the more/most "recoverable" (portable) of the original data (i.e. the many 10s of GiB of data on the drive which isn't specifically Red Hat stuff). -ext2 filesystems would generally be the most portable among LINUX distributions. Ext3 can be treated as backwards-compatible subset of ext2 (e.g. you can treat and use ext3 as an ext2 filesystem - that will lose the journaling benefits and effectively convert from ext3 to ext2, but on can then later relatively easily convert from ext2 to ext3) -backup first (and always - or at least sufficiently frequently) -research first -such a complex conversion may be easier if filesystems are reasonably separated out (e.g. separate filesystems for /boot, /, /tmp, /usr, /var, /home) -in 1998 I "upgraded" (I'd consider it an upgrade, but not in the conventional sense) from SCO UNIX System V/386 Operating System RELEASE: 3.2 Version 4.1 to Debian GNU/Linux "Hamm" (Hamm was in "frozen" state, but release as 2.0 was still forthcoming); in 1990 I upgraded from SCO XENIX 386 to SCO UNIX 386 while continuing to use/retain/(re)install the SCO XENIX development and text processing software (that software was really only designed for SCO XENIX, however SCO UNIX provided backwards binary compatibility with SCO XENIX); neither of those upgrades/configurations were things I'd consider easy or very close to trivial, but with proper backups, planning, testing, research, etc., they were both accomplished with relatively minimum of headache and no major unpleasant surprises. -unless* this is business critical, it may be better to avoid slamming one's head against the wall on such issues when one isn't most fresh for dealing with potentially complex and challenging problems and difficult decisions (i.e. 0:00 to 2:00 Sunday might not be optimal timing for working on the stickiest parts of such a problem). *and perhaps especially if ======================================================================== From jan at caustic.org Sun Mar 7 18:27:13 2004 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2004 18:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Trapped in Upgrade Hell In-Reply-To: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> Message-ID: <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> On Sun, 7 Mar 2004, Michael Paoli wrote: > Ouch - I wouldn't recommend "upgrading" (if one can call it that) perhaps "sidegrading" > -backup, backup, backup; and periodically test backups and that one has > everything necessary to do a full "cold metal" recovery; don't forget to > cover off-site issues and it may be prudent to backup in manner(s) which > give one more flexibility in recovery (e.g. to potentially significantly > different hardware or configuration) the problem here: backups are difficult to do for the average home user. more on this later. > I guess here I'm inclined to both agree and disagree, but perhaps it's > semantics. In any case, certainly doing a clean fresh install is > typically faster and easier than doing a complex conversion/migration > (which is really what was attempted - not an "upgrade" in the > conventional sense). Recoveries may or may not be fast - really depends > a lot on what's involved, what one is recovering to, and what one is > recovering from. my assumption, though, is that the machine's a home box. home users generally do not have the funding resources to keep good tape backups of 100gb of data. > Well, for some cost/risk tradeoffs, that may be satisfactory. It does > have key drawbacks such as: when rebuilding a machine, a simple harddrive can be used to back up user data to. it costs less than a tape drive, and holds more than a cdr or dvdr. > -if there are only two hard drives, and something goes quite wrong > during backup, all data may be lost considering this guy was willing to risk the data doing something difficult.. > Of course it's still better than no backup :-) it's not really a backup at all, honestly. merely a way to recover the data from after an upgrade, should it go wrong. > Absolutely. Still the best "general" solution (but not always the best > cost/risk tradeoff for all scenarios). it's also really expensive, unless you've got the cash. sadly, most people don't. my rant: backups are expensive. not difficult, not all that hard to do at all, once you have an idea of what's going on. the hard part, really, is finding the funding for doing the backup. most corparations that have valuable data do backups. they spend many tens of thousands of dollars on hardware, tapes, and related equipment. the price for this gear hasn't changed much in years. capasity has gone up, and with it the price. a DLT tape 10 years ago cost $100. just one tape.. a DLT tape is now about $60. the drive, though, will push around $3000. more than the computer, monitor, hard drive, and most associated periferals together. in fact, probably more than 3 times as much... so, the home user, with their work files, brand spanking new 75 gb hard drive.. can't properly back up this file, that game.. it sucks. cdroms only hold 750mb of data, maybe 1500mb if it's highly compressed. dvdr holds 4gb, 8 maybe. backup media needs to be cheap and reliable enough. hard drives fit this, especially since hitting the $1/gb mark. it's not perfect, but works "well enough." -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ The other day I asked former Yankees pitcher Jim Bouton what he thought of our great victory over Iraq, and he said, "Mohammed Ali versus Mr. Rogers." -- kurt vonnegut, 5.9.03 From itz at buug.org Mon Mar 8 10:03:14 2004 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 08 Mar 2004 10:03:14 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> johan> my rant: johan> backups are expensive. not difficult, not all that hard to do at johan> all, once you have an idea of what's going on. the hard part, johan> really, is finding the funding for doing the backup. johan> most corparations that have valuable data do backups. they spend johan> many tens of thousands of dollars on hardware, tapes, and related johan> equipment. johan> the price for this gear hasn't changed much in years. capasity johan> has gone up, and with it the price. a DLT tape 10 years ago cost johan> $100. just one tape.. a DLT tape is now about $60. the drive, johan> though, will push around $3000. more than the computer, monitor, johan> hard drive, and most associated periferals together. in fact, johan> probably more than 3 times as much... I agree, especially as I am trying to find a way to back up my new machine. I had a 4G DAT2 drive in the old one, it worked perfectly and saved my a**e many times. But the new disc drive is 60G ... -- Nothing can be explained to a stone. Or to a stoned person, either. From jammer at weak.org Mon Mar 8 10:34:20 2004 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:34:20 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> Message-ID: <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:03:14AM -0800, Ian Zimmerman wrote: > I agree, especially as I am trying to find a way to back up my new machine. > I had a 4G DAT2 drive in the old one, it worked perfectly and saved my a**e > many times. But the new disc drive is 60G ... Yeah, but of that 60G, how much of it will be irreplacable data? Unless you're doing a large amount of media generation, I'm guessing not much. The key is to recognize that it's no longer practical to back up your entire system. The solution is to narrow down your backups to that which is irreplacable, or hard to. So, for example, I back up /etc, and the portions of /var that contain my Debian configuration. I backup homedirs, except for some directories that I've carved out (things like ~/tmp, and ~/downloads, etc). I backup my pictures (since I don't have them burned to CD, although I should), but not my mp3s (since they are exclusively burned from audio CDs for which I have the originals). For me, at least, this all fits onto my 6-tape HP DDS2 autoloader (with 4GB capacity per tape). Granted, this works because I'm not authoring huge amounts of media (read: video). -Jon From itz at buug.org Mon Mar 8 10:39:38 2004 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 08 Mar 2004 10:39:38 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> Message-ID: <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> Jon> For me, at least, this all fits onto my 6-tape HP DDS2 autoloader Jon> (with 4GB capacity per tape). An autoloader may in fact be a solution, thanks for reminding me of that option. I am guessing they are not cheap either, though. I'll see. -- Nothing can be explained to a stone. Or to a stoned person, either. From jan at caustic.org Mon Mar 8 10:41:48 2004 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:41:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> Message-ID: <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Jon McClintock wrote: > Yeah, but of that 60G, how much of it will be irreplacable data? Unless > you're doing a large amount of media generation, I'm guessing not much. my own philosophy is that ALL data is irreplacable. > The key is to recognize that it's no longer practical to back up your > entire system. The solution is to narrow down your backups to that which > is irreplacable, or hard to. it's a solution, but not the solution. > So, for example, I back up /etc, and the portions of /var that contain > my Debian configuration. I backup homedirs, except for some directories > that I've carved out (things like ~/tmp, and ~/downloads, etc). I backup > my pictures (since I don't have them burned to CD, although I should), > but not my mp3s (since they are exclusively burned from audio CDs for > which I have the originals). not acceptable. sorry. how much time will it take to rebuild those mp3s? time + effort = money. least amount of effort for the time is going to keep your ass happier, really. > For me, at least, this all fits onto my 6-tape HP DDS2 autoloader (with > 4GB capacity per tape). how much was that? > Granted, this works because I'm not authoring huge amounts of media > (read: video). i know a few people who do video and audio stuff. most can't afford to handle backups either.. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ The other day I asked former Yankees pitcher Jim Bouton what he thought of our great victory over Iraq, and he said, "Mohammed Ali versus Mr. Rogers." -- kurt vonnegut, 5.9.03 From grayarea at reddagger.org Mon Mar 8 10:46:18 2004 From: grayarea at reddagger.org (john) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 10:46:18 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] Message-ID: <1078771578.6592.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> >$100. just one tape.. a DLT tape is now about $60. the drive, >though, will push around $3000. more than the computer, monitor, >hard drive, and most associated periferals together. in fact, >probably more than 3 times as much. For home machines, I use a hard drive in a removable IDE cartridge. Yes, I have to reboot, but for my home machines it isn't a big issue. I have found this to be a useful configuration. On my main machine, I actually have my primary IDE drive on a cartridge as well, since that allows me to easily perform fatal experiments on my setup or play with other distros, and not worry too much about the results. -j John Withers From jammer at weak.org Mon Mar 8 10:49:03 2004 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:49:03 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20040308184903.GB10640@weak.org> On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:41:48AM -0800, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Jon McClintock wrote: > > > Yeah, but of that 60G, how much of it will be irreplacable data? Unless > > you're doing a large amount of media generation, I'm guessing not much. > > my own philosophy is that ALL data is irreplacable. Ok. You've decided that all of your bits are priceless. In which case, be prepared to pay that price. > > So, for example, I back up /etc, and the portions of /var that contain > > my Debian configuration. I backup homedirs, except for some directories > > that I've carved out (things like ~/tmp, and ~/downloads, etc). I backup > > my pictures (since I don't have them burned to CD, although I should), > > but not my mp3s (since they are exclusively burned from audio CDs for > > which I have the originals). > > not acceptable. sorry. how much time will it take to rebuild those mp3s? > time + effort = money. least amount of effort for the time is going to > keep your ass happier, really. Yes, and in my case, the equation works out to: ((time + effort) = money) < (money to buy a backup system capable of reliably storing 60+ GB of data) > > For me, at least, this all fits onto my 6-tape HP DDS2 autoloader (with > > 4GB capacity per tape). > > how much was that? Free. It helps to have friends in IT departments. :) But, they're cheap enough: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2791965429&category=51090 -Jon From jan at caustic.org Mon Mar 8 10:56:28 2004 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:56:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308184903.GB10640@weak.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308184903.GB10640@weak.org> Message-ID: <20040308105452.A2055@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Jon McClintock wrote: > Ok. You've decided that all of your bits are priceless. In which case, > be prepared to pay that price. not all, just the content and crap i keep. my home directories are pretty much priceless. installed programs that aren't easily replaced? priceless. you get the idea. the OS? eh, whatever, it's not that important. i can reinstall that easily enough. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ The other day I asked former Yankees pitcher Jim Bouton what he thought of our great victory over Iraq, and he said, "Mohammed Ali versus Mr. Rogers." -- kurt vonnegut, 5.9.03 From jammer at weak.org Mon Mar 8 11:03:08 2004 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:03:08 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308105452.A2055@pogo.caustic.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308184903.GB10640@weak.org> <20040308105452.A2055@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20040308190308.GC10640@weak.org> On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:56:28AM -0800, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Jon McClintock wrote: > > > Ok. You've decided that all of your bits are priceless. In which case, > > be prepared to pay that price. > > not all, just the content and crap i keep. my home directories are pretty > much priceless. installed programs that aren't easily replaced? priceless. Ah, the wonders of free software: All installed programs are thus easily replaced. :) As far as home directories, the best thing I've found is to be anal about organizing things. Keeping downloads in one directory pares my home directory down to about 250 megs, from over 2 gigs. > the OS? eh, whatever, it's not that important. i can reinstall that easily > enough. Yeah, made even easier if you've got a distro like Debian, where you can grab the list of packages, and then feed it back in at a later date, to be automatically reinstalled. -Jon From jan at caustic.org Mon Mar 8 11:07:34 2004 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:07:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308190308.GC10640@weak.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308184903.GB10640@weak.org> <20040308105452.A2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308190308.GC10640@weak.org> Message-ID: <20040308110508.L2055@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Jon McClintock wrote: > Ah, the wonders of free software: All installed programs are thus easily > replaced. :) not all people exclusively use free software. i handle preserving data for friends and family while i'm at it. not all of them run a form of UNIX.. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ The other day I asked former Yankees pitcher Jim Bouton what he thought of our great victory over Iraq, and he said, "Mohammed Ali versus Mr. Rogers." -- kurt vonnegut, 5.9.03 From nick at zork.net Mon Mar 8 11:35:03 2004 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:35:03 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308110508.L2055@pogo.caustic.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308184903.GB10640@weak.org> <20040308105452.A2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308190308.GC10640@weak.org> <20040308110508.L2055@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20040308193503.GF21749@zork.net> begin f.johan.beisser quotation: > not all people exclusively use free software. More the fool, them. -- "Forget the damned motor car and build cities for lovers and friends." -- Lewis Mumford end From jan at caustic.org Mon Mar 8 11:37:40 2004 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:37:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308193503.GF21749@zork.net> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308184903.GB10640@weak.org> <20040308105452.A2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308190308.GC10640@weak.org> <20040308110508.L2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308193503.GF21749@zork.net> Message-ID: <20040308113709.V2055@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Nick Moffitt wrote: > > not all people exclusively use free software. > More the fool, them. show me an open source replacement for 3d Studio Max. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ The other day I asked former Yankees pitcher Jim Bouton what he thought of our great victory over Iraq, and he said, "Mohammed Ali versus Mr. Rogers." -- kurt vonnegut, 5.9.03 From nick at zork.net Mon Mar 8 11:39:44 2004 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:39:44 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308113709.V2055@pogo.caustic.org> References: <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308184903.GB10640@weak.org> <20040308105452.A2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308190308.GC10640@weak.org> <20040308110508.L2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308193503.GF21749@zork.net> <20040308113709.V2055@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20040308193944.GH21749@zork.net> begin f.johan.beisser quotation: > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Nick Moffitt wrote: > > > not all people exclusively use free software. > > More the fool, them. > > show me an open source replacement for 3d Studio Max. If you wish to employ my services, you will have to pay my hourly fee. If you send me strict requirements, we may be able to work on a contract. -- "Forget the damned motor car and build cities for lovers and friends." -- Lewis Mumford end From john at jjdev.com Mon Mar 8 12:52:04 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (johnd) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 12:52:04 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20040308205203.GA3289@stang.jjdev.com> On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:41:48AM -0800, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Jon McClintock wrote: > > > Yeah, but of that 60G, how much of it will be irreplacable data? Unless > > you're doing a large amount of media generation, I'm guessing not much. > > my own philosophy is that ALL data is irreplacable. What do you mean by data? You don't think binaries that came with your distros install CD are irreplacable? From jan at caustic.org Mon Mar 8 13:13:39 2004 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 13:13:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308205203.GA3289@stang.jjdev.com> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <20040308103624.C2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040308205203.GA3289@stang.jjdev.com> Message-ID: <20040308125928.B2055@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, johnd wrote: > What do you mean by data? everything on disk is important, period. it doesn't matter what it is, where it's from, or if you can "easily replace" it. if it can't be restored easily, it's useless. > You don't think binaries that came with your distros install CD are > irreplacable? those are the most replacable bits of data you have on disk. for a home user, it's almost completely pointless to back up the OS itself. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ The other day I asked former Yankees pitcher Jim Bouton what he thought of our great victory over Iraq, and he said, "Mohammed Ali versus Mr. Rogers." -- kurt vonnegut, 5.9.03 From itz at buug.org Mon Mar 8 15:23:19 2004 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 08 Mar 2004 15:23:19 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> I wrote: Jon> For me, at least, this all fits onto my 6-tape HP DDS2 autoloader Jon> (with 4GB capacity per tape). Ian> An autoloader may in fact be a solution, thanks for reminding me of Ian> that option. I am guessing they are not cheap either, though. Ian> I'll see. Presently looking at an USB external drive as a solution. -- Nothing can be explained to a stone. Or to a stoned person, either. From buug at multivax.net Mon Mar 8 15:55:36 2004 From: buug at multivax.net (James Howard) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 15:55:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: Jon McClintock> Ah, the wonders of free software: All installed Jon McClintock> programs are thus easily replaced. :) f.johan.beisser> not all people exclusively use free software. This isn't an open source issue. I think the point here is that there is a distinction amongst: (1) the static and replaceable OS and application installation packages (open source or proprietary -- it shouldn't matter so long as you have the media or access to those packages via network), (2) the irreplaceable, but reconstructable configuration data for those packages (ie. /etc, ~/.foo_user), and (3) the irreplaceable data and content we produce and collect with those applications (ie. /home, /var). Personally, I consider the latter two worthy of backup, while I don't bother with non-unique software installs and patches which are either available to me on pressed CD media or over the net. Further, I'm not sure how reliable a snapshot of an application's files would prove in reconstructing the application after recovery of those files. f.johan.beisser> show me an open source replacement for 3d Studio f.johan.beisser> Max. Again, this isn't an open source issue. If you have a license with Autodesk for their product, you would likely have the install media. If your install media were lost, I imagine they could provide you with a replacement at a nominal charge. From jan at caustic.org Mon Mar 8 16:45:50 2004 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 16:45:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, James Howard wrote: > This isn't an open source issue. agreed. but, the "ease of replacement" goes beyond just simple media. ideally you'd have a simple method to replace it. the simpler, the better. as a user, i find it frustrating to be forced in to rebuilding a machine from scratch. maybe it's a result of my generation (MTV has corrupted us for instant gratification), but really, who wants to deal with switching out media and reinstalling every single piece of software installed on any machine? 1 major backup, restore from incrementals. it's simpler, faster, and easier to do than deal with installing (or worse, rebuilding) lost packages. in a corparate environment, the "gradual rebuild" of a system is not really acceptable. > Again, this isn't an open source issue. If you have a license with > Autodesk for their product, you would likely have the install media. If > your install media were lost, I imagine they could provide you with a > replacement at a nominal charge. many companies (Autodesk excluded, by the way) will want full price for the replacement of lost media. i know, this is bullshit, but they do. ANYHOW, this thread has degenerated well past what it started as. i'll stop here. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ The other day I asked former Yankees pitcher Jim Bouton what he thought of our great victory over Iraq, and he said, "Mohammed Ali versus Mr. Rogers." -- kurt vonnegut, 5.9.03 From buug at multivax.net Mon Mar 8 17:04:36 2004 From: buug at multivax.net (James Howard) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:04:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: Fair enough Johan. I guess it really depends on the particulars of the setup. FWIW: On my home system, I have /home and /var on a RAID-1 mirror. Files from /home, /var /etc, and some others are backed up fully and incrementally to an alternating pair of removable ide drives. I have roughly 4 copies of my data at various states to protect against both mechanical failure, and to a lesser extent, other types of loss. In the end, I found the cheap ide drive solution to be faster, more cost effective, and convenient than a more stable (albeit expensive) tape solution. On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, f.johan.beisser wrote: > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, James Howard wrote: > > > This isn't an open source issue. > > agreed. but, the "ease of replacement" goes beyond just simple media. > ideally you'd have a simple method to replace it. the simpler, the better. > > as a user, i find it frustrating to be forced in to rebuilding a machine > from scratch. maybe it's a result of my generation (MTV has corrupted us > for instant gratification), but really, who wants to deal with switching > out media and reinstalling every single piece of software installed on any > machine? > > 1 major backup, restore from incrementals. it's simpler, faster, and > easier to do than deal with installing (or worse, rebuilding) lost > packages. in a corparate environment, the "gradual rebuild" of a system is > not really acceptable. > > > Again, this isn't an open source issue. If you have a license with > > Autodesk for their product, you would likely have the install media. If > > your install media were lost, I imagine they could provide you with a > > replacement at a nominal charge. > > many companies (Autodesk excluded, by the way) will want full price for > the replacement of lost media. i know, this is bullshit, but they do. > > ANYHOW, this thread has degenerated well past what it started as. i'll > stop here. > > -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ > The other day I asked former Yankees pitcher Jim Bouton > what he thought of our great victory over Iraq, and he > said, "Mohammed Ali versus Mr. Rogers." > -- kurt vonnegut, 5.9.03 > From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Mar 8 19:13:41 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:13:41 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> Message-ID: <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> Quoting James Howard (buug at multivax.net): > FWIW: On my home system, I have /home and /var on a RAID-1 mirror. Files > from /home, /var /etc, and some others are backed up fully and > incrementally to an alternating pair of removable ide drives. I have > roughly 4 copies of my data at various states to protect against both > mechanical failure, and to a lesser extent, other types of loss. Four generations of copies isn't really backup in any serious sense of the term: You either have snapshot so far apart in time that much of the change history is totally missing, or the backups go so little distance into the past as to provide zero ability to recover from, say, a hardware fault that is subtly corrupted your files six months ago. That having been said, admittedly it's a great deal more than almost all home users bother to do. Oh, by the way, you store all those drive off-site, right? So the same fire or theft can't steal both your system and your backups? (Thought not.) By the way^2: So, you power down your system every time you attach or remove backup media? (Ick!) Or do you actually trust your hardware and data to {shudder} IDE hotswap? > In the end, I found the cheap ide drive solution to be faster, more cost > effective, and convenient than a more stable (albeit expensive) tape > solution. With only four generations (almost real backup), that's very likely the way the economic comparison works out. For real backup, it wouldn't. Maybe some day, though. More at: "Backup Fallacies / Pitfalls" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Admin . -- Cheers, "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your rick at linuxmafia.com option, any later version." -- Seth David Schoen From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Mar 8 19:15:57 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:15:57 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: <20040309031557.GI17106@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Ian Zimmerman (itz at buug.org): > Presently looking at an USB external drive as a solution. Use of USB for mass storage makes baby Jesus weep. May I lend you one of my old SCSI host adapters? ;-> -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, rick at linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. From nick at zork.net Mon Mar 8 19:18:57 2004 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:18:57 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20040309031857.GN21749@zork.net> begin Rick Moen quotation: > Quoting James Howard (buug at multivax.net): > > FWIW: On my home system, I have /home and /var on a RAID-1 mirror. > > Files from /home, /var /etc, and some others are backed up fully > > and incrementally to an alternating pair of removable ide drives. > > I have roughly 4 copies of my data at various states to protect > > against both mechanical failure, and to a lesser extent, other > > types of loss. > > Four generations of copies isn't really backup in any serious sense > of the term: You either have snapshot so far apart in time that > much of the change history is totally missing, or the backups go so > little distance into the past as to provide zero ability to recover > from, say, a hardware fault that is subtly corrupted your files six > months ago. Agreed. You may wish to look into rdiff-backup instead. It does incrementals, and the last backup is always a "live" directory tree. Go ape and back THAT up to removeable media for maximal peace of mind. -- "Forget the damned motor car and build cities for lovers and friends." -- Lewis Mumford end From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Mar 8 19:35:25 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:35:25 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040309031857.GN21749@zork.net> References: <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> <20040309031857.GN21749@zork.net> Message-ID: <20040309033525.GJ17106@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Nick Moffitt (nick at zork.net): > Agreed. You may wish to look into rdiff-backup instead. It > does incrementals, and the last backup is always a "live" directory > tree. Go ape and back THAT up to removeable media for maximal peace > of mind. That's a good thought. One refinement over incrementals that doesn't occur to a lot of people: _Differential_ backups. In an incremental scheme, there's (say) a Friday night full backup, and then the subsequent four weekday incremental sets catch the changes from Friday to Monday (Monday night tape), Monday to Tuesday (Tuesday night tape), Tuesday to Wednesday (Wednesday night tape), and Wednesday to Thursday (Thursday night tape) -- one day's worth of state, each). The same scheme done with differential daily backups would load all changes since Friday on Monday night's tape, all changes since Friday on Tuesday night's tape, etc. Each daily tape has all cumulative state since the last full backup. And why would you do that, some would ask. Because it reduces single points of failure. Example: On Friday morning, your hard drive dies. You mount a new hard drive, and load the OS. You restore the preceding Friday full backup, then the Monday incremental, then the Tuesday incremental, then the Wednesday incremental, then the Thursday incremental. {Phew!} You've lost only a few hours of machine state. Good! But suppose the Monday tape is bad? Makes those next three days' tapes pretty useless, doesn't it? From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Mar 8 19:45:45 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:45:45 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> Message-ID: <20040309034545.GK17106@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Ian Zimmerman (itz at buug.org): > I agree, especially as I am trying to find a way to back up my new > machine. I had a 4G DAT2 drive in the old one, it worked perfectly > and saved my a**e many times. But the new disc drive is 60G ... What's cost-effective depends (obviously) on how much data one has to deal with per backup set, among other things -- but, these days, if I were buying a tape drive for home use, I'd be looking for a used DDS4 drive. It writes very, very quickly to either DDS4 or DDS3 tapes. Use the former for high capacity and the latter for inexpensive media. Capacities before compression: DDS4: 20 GB DDS3: 12 GB When weighing alternatives, make sure you include to cost of media for a reasonable number of backup sets for a couple of years. One such scheme I worked out requires 30 tapes for each year, and is detailed in my "Backup Fallacies / Pitfalls" piece (referred to earlier). When you include cost of a _serious_ number of rotational backup sets, DDS tends to look very attractive, relative to all alternatives. From buug at multivax.net Mon Mar 8 19:52:56 2004 From: buug at multivax.net (James Howard) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:52:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting James Howard (buug at multivax.net): > > > FWIW: On my home system, I have /home and /var on a RAID-1 mirror. Files > > from /home, /var /etc, and some others are backed up fully and > > incrementally to an alternating pair of removable ide drives. I have > > roughly 4 copies of my data at various states to protect against both > > mechanical failure, and to a lesser extent, other types of loss. > > Four generations of copies isn't really backup in any serious sense of > the term: You either have snapshot so far apart in time that much of > the change history is totally missing, or the backups go so little > distance into the past as to provide zero ability to recover from, say, a > hardware fault that is subtly corrupted your files six months ago. > Actually, it isn't 4 merely generations of copies. It's four fulls, with incrementals. Furthermore, you're making a lot of assumptions about the nature of my data. > That having been said, admittedly it's a great deal more than almost all > home users bother to do. > > Oh, by the way, you store all those drive off-site, right? So the same > fire or theft can't steal both your system and your backups? (Thought > not.) > Your presumption is correct. It's called a 'firesafe'. > By the way^2: So, you power down your system every time you attach or > remove backup media? (Ick!) Or do you actually trust your hardware and > data to {shudder} IDE hotswap? > It's not a problem for me. I power my system down whenever I'm asleep. > > In the end, I found the cheap ide drive solution to be faster, more cost > > effective, and convenient than a more stable (albeit expensive) tape > > solution. > > With only four generations (almost real backup), that's very likely the > way the economic comparison works out. For real backup, it wouldn't. Then what, pray tell, constitutes "real backup" according to Nick Moffit? From nick at zork.net Mon Mar 8 20:08:18 2004 From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:08:18 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: References: <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20040309040818.GP21749@zork.net> begin James Howard quotation: > On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Rick Moen wrote: > > With only four generations (almost real backup), that's very likely the > > way the economic comparison works out. For real backup, it wouldn't. > > Then what, pray tell, constitutes "real backup" according to Nick Moffit? Neither Mr. Moen nor I know anyone named Moffit. -- "Forget the damned motor car and build cities for lovers and friends." -- Lewis Mumford end From buug at multivax.net Mon Mar 8 20:05:44 2004 From: buug at multivax.net (James Howard) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 20:05:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040309033525.GJ17106@linuxmafia.com> References: <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> <20040309031857.GN21749@zork.net> <20040309033525.GJ17106@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Nick Moffitt (nick at zork.net): > > But suppose the Monday tape is bad? Makes those next three days' tapes > pretty useless, doesn't it? Perhaps you can explain. I don't see how Tuesday's, Wednesday's, and Thursday's tapes are useless if Monday's dies. It seems that only files that were changed only Monday -- and on no other day -- would be affected by the failed Monday tape. From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Mar 8 22:53:39 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:53:39 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: References: <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20040309065339.GL17106@linuxmafia.com> Quoting James Howard (buug at multivax.net), in no particular order: > Then what, pray tell, constitutes "real backup" according to Nick Moffit? It's entirely possible that you are trying -- rather badly, I would say -- to refer to Mr. Nick Moffitt. Although some have been known to be confused by the white lab coats and mirrored shades, otherwise we don't look the least bit alike. I hope you'll remember that, in the future. > Furthermore, you're making a lot of assumptions about the nature of my > data. I'm assuming primarily that your data are of value, and change progressively over time. But, actually, I have to admit that I have no interest in -=your=- data as such, particularly, nor am I actually addressing specifically -=you=-, in effect: I'm using you as a generic springboard to make broader points for the list membership's benefit. > Actually, it isn't 4 merely generations of copies. It's four fulls, with > incrementals. That is better yet. And you almost but not quite value your data enough to store them off-site. I'm impressed. ;-> > Your presumption is correct. It's called a 'firesafe'. An on-premises firesafe subject to being picked up and stolen, or merely an on-premises one in which your tapes would be soon damaged beyond usability (even if within the safe's rated temperature) in any significant fire? > It's not a problem for me. I power my system down whenever I'm asleep. Ah. Many others of us find a need to shut down system power just for routine system events a deal-breaker, you see. -- Cheers, Rick Moen This space for rant. rick at linuxmafia.com From rick at linuxmafia.com Mon Mar 8 23:05:10 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:05:10 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: References: <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> <20040309031857.GN21749@zork.net> <20040309033525.GJ17106@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <20040309070510.GM17106@linuxmafia.com> Quoting James Howard (buug at multivax.net): > Perhaps you can explain. Sure. Your most-important application has data files that include fnord.1 and fnord.2. They were in a coherent state at the time of Friday's full backup. During Monday's work hours, fnord.1 got changed. The state change was duly recorded in the Monday night incremental. During the Tuesday workday, fnord.2 also changed. During the night, the state change of that file gets likewise recorded -- but the prior night's alterations to fnord.1 do not. On Friday, you attempt the series of restores. You restore the Friday tape -- fine. Monday's incremental tape fails, in whole or in part. If it's even possible to restore the Tuesday incremental at that point (which would depend on your backup software), your resulting on-disk data would include the Monday night version of fnord.1 plus, for fnord.2, the Friday file state patched in some fashion (depending on your backup software) with the Tuesday state changes, which may or may not even be an individually valid file. If the resulting fnord.2 version _is_ a valid file, it's still out of sync with the restored version of fnord.1. Your applicaiton may not load at all, or it may be worthless or corrupted results. Or you could be lucky, and the application may say "Oh, I can figure that out. I guess." And, if you're very lucky, it may even be right. But you'd better not bank on it. -- This message falsely claims to have been scanned for viruses with F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange and to have been found clean. From mp at rawbw.com Tue Mar 9 09:33:38 2004 From: mp at rawbw.com (Michael Paoli) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:33:38 -0800 Subject: [buug] fire vs. media safe/file/cabinet [Was: Backups [Was: ... Message-ID: <1078853618.404dfff2e2ff0@webmail.rawbw.com> > From: Rick Moen > To: buug at weak.org > Subject: Re: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:53:39 -0800 > Quoting James Howard (buug at multivax.net), in no particular order: > > Your presumption is correct. It's called a 'firesafe'. > An on-premises firesafe subject to being picked up and stolen, or merely > an on-premises one in which your tapes would be soon damaged beyond > usability (even if within the safe's rated temperature) in any significant fire? Yes, be sure to be aware of the difference between fire vs. media safe/file/cabinet. The fire variety will protect paper in most fires, but not computer media (magnetic, optical, etc.) or film. To protect computer media and film from fire, one should use a media safe/file/cabinet. I.e. internal max. temperature: 350 F (fire) vs. 125 F (media). http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3ffi9s%24j26%40crl3.crl.com&output=gplain Of course if one backs up to paper punch cards or paper tape ... From itz at buug.org Tue Mar 9 09:37:15 2004 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 09 Mar 2004 09:37:15 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040308164012.R2055@pogo.caustic.org> <20040309031341.GH17106@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <878yi9udkk.fsf@buug.org> Rick> Oh, by the way, you store all those drive off-site, right? So the Rick> same fire or theft can't steal both your system and your backups? Well, in the case of a magnitude 8 earthquake, it's not going to make that much difference. In general, you're right, to be sure. -- Nothing can be explained to a stone. Or to a stoned person, either. From itz at buug.org Tue Mar 9 10:24:18 2004 From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman) Date: 09 Mar 2004 10:24:18 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <20040309031557.GI17106@linuxmafia.com> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040309031557.GI17106@linuxmafia.com> Message-ID: <87vfldswtp.fsf@buug.org> Quoth Rick Moen : Ian> Presently looking at an USB external drive as a solution. Rick> Use of USB for mass storage makes baby Jesus weep. May I lend you Rick> one of my old SCSI host adapters? ;-> He weeps over many things, and this is not even one of the more important ones. :-) Actually I have a fine SCSI adapter, how do you think I used the 4G DDS2 drive I mentioned? Rick> When you include cost of a _serious_ number of rotational backup Rick> sets, DDS tends to look very attractive, relative to all Rick> alternatives. Attractive, yes, but not a forgeone conclusion. I just checked ebay - a used DDS3 seems to go for about $150, excluding shipping. That's still more than the _new_ USB drive I was looking at. -- Nothing can be explained to a stone. Or to a stoned person, either. From rick at linuxmafia.com Tue Mar 9 11:31:14 2004 From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:31:14 -0800 Subject: [buug] Backups [Was: Trapped in Upgrade Hell] In-Reply-To: <87vfldswtp.fsf@buug.org> References: <1078700736.404baac0c2b88@webmail.rawbw.com> <20040307180137.I2055@pogo.caustic.org> <873c8jusgt.fsf_-_@buug.org> <20040308183420.GA10640@weak.org> <87u10ztc7p.fsf@buug.org> <87ptbmudnc.fsf@buug.org> <20040309031557.GI17106@linuxmafia.com> <87vfldswtp.fsf@buug.org> Message-ID: <20040309193114.GU17106@linuxmafia.com> Quoting Ian Zimmerman (itz at buug.org): > Attractive, yes, but not a forgeone conclusion. I just checked ebay - a > used DDS3 seems to go for about $150, excluding shipping. That's still > more than the _new_ USB drive I was looking at. Possibly worth it just for not having USB headaches. Depending. My opinion; yours for a small fee and disclaimer of reverse-engineering rights. -- Cheers, Rick Moen "vi is my shepherd; I shall not font." rick at linuxmafia.com -- Psalm 0.1 beta From webmaster at hawaiidakine.com Wed Mar 17 11:24:31 2004 From: webmaster at hawaiidakine.com (Al Plant) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:24:31 -1000 Subject: [buug] Using burncd for .jpg photos Message-ID: <4058A5EF.4090407@hawaiidakine.com> Hi, I am using a FreeBSD box. Is there a command line code for burncd that allows placing .jpg photos that are located in a directory in that directory on the cd? I used this and it doesnt work. burncd -f /dev/acd0c data /usr/home/alp/cdromburn/vegaspix Thanks for any help. Aloha! Al Plant -Webmaster http://hawaiidakine.com 808-284-2740 Running FreeBSD 4.9 ~ Supporter of Open Source Computing ~ Nothing of value is accomplished without a struggle... Kshanti From jan at caustic.org Wed Mar 17 11:40:02 2004 From: jan at caustic.org (f.johan.beisser) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:40:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [buug] Re: Using burncd for .jpg photos In-Reply-To: <4058A5EF.4090407@hawaiidakine.com> References: <4058A5EF.4090407@hawaiidakine.com> Message-ID: <20040317113939.P2055@pogo.caustic.org> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Al Plant wrote: > Is there a command line code for burncd that allows placing .jpg photos > that are located in a directory in that directory on the cd? burncd is only really going to help you with isos. read the man page. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ The other day I asked former Yankees pitcher Jim Bouton what he thought of our great victory over Iraq, and he said, "Mohammed Ali versus Mr. Rogers." -- kurt vonnegut, 5.9.03 From mp at rawbw.com Sun Mar 28 09:57:24 2004 From: mp at rawbw.com (Michael Paoli) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 09:57:24 -0800 Subject: [buug] paricipatory supercomputer event: 2004-04-03 FlashMob I, San Francisco http://www.flashmobcomputing.org/ Message-ID: <1080496644.40671204caa4c@webmail.rawbw.com> What: Flash Mob Computing computer: FlashMob I (supercomputer) When: Next Saturday: 2004-04-03 Where: San Francisco: University of San Francisco (Koret Gym, etc.) Some more details: You may be able to take part in one of the top supercomputers on the planet. It's mostly a UNIX/LINUX/Debian/Knoppix/Morphix type operation (looks like the supercomputer will mostly use Morphix, which is based on Knoppix and Debian). Cool freebies: (t-shirt, software, event pass, certificate, badge to put on your computer, etc.) Exciting/interesting events throughout the day. Post FlashMob LAN Party System requirements to participate in the event (bring one or more of): "Your computer must be at least 1.3 GHZ Pentium III/AMD equivalent or better with at least 256MB of RAM, a 100 Base-T network connection and a CD-ROM" - I presume they mean GHz, 256 MiB, 100Base-TX, and CD-ROM compatible drive (CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, or CD-ROM compatible DVD), and that one needs system with 100Base-TX capable jack, but they provide the network and cabling. No hard drive required (project boots from CD and should never touch the hard drive). Note that you can't participate and/or enter/leave with your (or anyone else's) computer(s) at various times during the event: "Before the benchmarking begins at 11AM, we must secure the gym. Everyone must exit the gym while the benchmarking is going on. There is a large viewing area, and we have an exciting day's worth of fun activities, but during the benchmark you will not be allowed on the gym floor for any reason." "Once the benchmark begins, under no circumstances will you be allowed to unplug your computer until the benchmark ends." "Immediately after the benchmark, we will announce the results and you may pickup your computers. But not before." (seems some of that information should be on the FAQ page, but is actually found on the calendar/"the days events" page) laptop/computer security? - see the security section towards the end of the FAQ Lots more details: http://www.flashmobcomputing.org/ http://www.flashmobcomputing.org/misc/calendar http://www.flashmobcomputing.org/misc/faq From john at jjdev.com Wed Mar 31 08:08:40 2004 From: john at jjdev.com (john at jjdev.com) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 11:08:40 -0500 Subject: [buug] Re: Thank you! Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Text.pif Type: application/octet-stream Size: 21719 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jammer at weak.org Wed Mar 31 10:09:23 2004 From: jammer at weak.org (Jon McClintock) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:09:23 -0800 Subject: [buug] Re: Thank you! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040331180923.GA32088@weak.org> Urhm. Yeah. Ignore this post, please. Looks like one of the email worms/viruses floating around finally matched up the mailing list with one of its subscribers when forging the headers. -Jon From cristjc at comcast.net Wed Mar 17 11:49:34 2004 From: cristjc at comcast.net (Crist J. Clark) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:49:34 -0800 Subject: [buug] Re: [Questions] Using burncd for .jpg photos In-Reply-To: <4058A5EF.4090407@hawaiidakine.com> References: <4058A5EF.4090407@hawaiidakine.com> Message-ID: <20040317194933.GA85260@blossom.cjclark.org> On Wed, Mar 17, 2004 at 09:24:31AM -1000, Al Plant wrote: > Hi, > > I am using a FreeBSD box. > Is there a command line code for burncd that allows placing .jpg photos > that are located in a directory in that directory on the cd? > > I used this and it doesnt work. > > burncd -f /dev/acd0c data /usr/home/alp/cdromburn/vegaspix > > Thanks for any help. You probably want to put an ISO-9660 filesystem on the CD. That is, you use a tool like mkisofs (in the ports) to create a ISO-9660 filesystem of everything above your vegaspix directory. Then you write the filesystem image (a plain ol' file) to the CD using the "data" command within burncd(8). -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark at alum.mit.edu | cjclark at jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc at freebsd.org