From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 00:35:15 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 00:35:15 -0700
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not.
In-Reply-To: <20090930235233.GX31333@linuxmafia.com>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420909301554p52dcbd6taa2276b8d3f0912@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090930235233.GX31333@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <a86954420910010035u3ac318b7nc0432196b460ab2@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/30/09, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

{{ However, FWIW, this other gentleman claims to _also_ have a 701SD,
and his view seems to contradict yours: }}

I just simply do not want to muck around with the innards of a cheap
system, is all. Much rather work with external solutions. Do *not*
want to invest more $$$ in this $140 bargain...and that is part of the
challenge I welcome. Besides, that thread seems to be for
accommodating the memory needs of Windoze use...which we all know are
for more demanding than Linux.

What *prompted* me to ask about using swap on an external SDHC card,
was that I read that solid state drives have a limited write capacity
considerably lower than your standard hard drives...significant enough
to be worth the trouble of moving swap off the SSD. Has nothing to do
with excessive swap problems.

{{ Now, _that_ is a different matter.  Obviously, when I was outlining
your alternatives, I had no present knowledge of either how much RAM
you use or even how much physical RAM you had. }}

I did state in my OP, that my RAM is 500MB.

{{ Therefore, all I said was that  _if_ you were hitting swap, then
it's easier to make sure you have enough RAM to not need swap on flash
media. }}

I understand, Rick. But this is also an experiment and learning lesson
for me, on how Linux uses memory, including swap. I will most likely
buy a new SDHC card that is class 6. in lieu of my present, class 2,
card.

{{ If I understand correctly, your next step should be to determine
the answer to that question of fact, rather than assume it. }}

Yes! Per your interesting suggestions, I played around tonight.

{{ You'll want to look at your fstab .

 $ grep swap /etc/fstab
 /dev/sda2       none            swap    sw              0       0 }}

--Here is my report:

Well, "sdc5" is the device label for my SDHC card's swap partition, so
the line would read:

   /dev/sdc5       none            swap    sw              0       0

But it doesn't. Here's my fstab's present swap line:

   # swap was on /dev/sda5 during installation
   UUID=d58c09be-5890-4cd3-93ba-67bb6f01bf3f none            swap    sw

Obviously, Ubuntu uses "universally unique identifier", so I found
this help page:

UUID in Ubuntu 9.04
http://beginlinux.com/blog/2009/04/uuid-in-ubuntu-904/

Which told me to run

  ls -l /dev/disk/by-uuid

to get a list of all UUID partitions. The result:

root at asus701:/home/zeke# ls -l /dev/disk/by-uuid
total 0
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2009-09-30 20:47
0ea0b4c6-4437-4357-a8c7-09412d30a62b -> ../../sdc5
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2009-09-30 20:15
2c45c835-6d01-42fc-b9f0-462df7362242 -> ../../sda1
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 10 2009-09-30 20:15
67eb82e0-86e0-4999-a65f-a29ebe22528d -> ../../sdc1

So I edited fstab's swap line to read:

# New Swap is on SDHC /dev/sdc5
UUID=0ea0b4c6-4437-4357-a8c7-09412d30a62b none            swap    sw

Rebooted, then ran gparted, which tells me that /dev/sdc5 is active as
linux swap. Yay! Further verification: system monitor shows swap to be
760.9mb...instead of zero, when I had no swap. And "vmstat -s" shows
"779112 K free swap".

I set swap size to 780mb. Originally, it was approx. 360mb on
/dev/sda5...I'll see if this increase in size causes any
slowdown...which I understand can be the case when swap is larger than
need be.

[FAST FORWARD]

Okay, now I'm connected via dialup. Firefox runs fine again. Likewise
Synaptics PM. Don't know if this is because swap is working once
again, or just coincidence. Perhaps they like to know swap is there,
and if it is...maybe they got a tad confused, and would have started
working properly again after a few more tries, even w/o resuming
swap...I just don't know enough to figure that out.

System Monitor now reports that I'm using 68% of my 500MBs of
RAM...and using 7.1MB swap space. (Using 100% of my CPU, 900MHz
Celeron BTW.) What do I have running on my Eee PC 701SD at this
moment?

Gnome GUI
Terminal in root, running "pon" dialup app.
Firefox 3.5 (actually "aBrowser")
Treepad Lite (a windoze note taker) via Wine.
Sticky Notes (just one note loaded, barely 100 characters).
System Monitor

So I then add Nautilus to the list of running processes, and notice
that swap increases slightly to 9.1 mb, while RAM very slightly to
69.1%. However, Nautilus uses 10.5MB of RAM according to the processes
list.  But the increase in RAM and swap doesn't even come close. Well,
Nautilus is "sleeping" while I type this, so maybe that's why.

Now, checking out the processes list, interesting to find an app
called "services.exe" !!?!??!!? System Monitor points it to
"C:\windows\system32\services.exe". I assume this is wine, but when I
go to the surrogate C-drive, there is no services.exe under wine's
system32 folder!

OMG...there's also "explorer.exe" and "winedevice.exe", which
processes claims are in the same folder as "services.exe"...but
Nautilus doesn't show them. Well, shutting down Treepad Lite got rid
of 'em, so it's definitely a wine thang. Whew!

Oh, and I'm discovering the world of swappiness now. From this page:

http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/18990.html

Quote: "The fact that Linux starts using swap space when any physical
memory is left at all may seem very counter-intuitive to most users
(as it did to myself at first). Linux, being a server-oriented
operating system, is by default tuned to deliver high performance to
background applications at the expense of foreground applications.
This means that your word processor, mp3 player, kde desktop manager,
doom3 video game, and any other "foreground" application will start to
be swapped out at the earliest sign of rising memory consumption so
that the system background services can run smoothly. For the average
desktop user, this is almost always not what you want. Short of
turning swap space completely off (which is not recommended), Linux
allows us the ability to fine-tune the likelihood of swap space being
used at all."

Apparently the default swappiness for Ubuntu is 60. I changed it to
10, per that page's instructions. Under the premise that this will
discourage LInux from swapping prematurely...and instead, actually
usuing all remaining RAM before doing any swaps. Let's see how that
goes.

--end report

{{ Well, if you ever get tired of wasting RAM and having to chew up
SDHC cards pointlessly, consider losing the GNOME bloat. }}

I will soon install two or three minimalist GUIs, now that I have a
better grasp of Linux characteristics. Thanks!

{{ Clue:  The more baroque the environment you're running when you
conduct this exercise, the more involved and time-consuming it becomes
to track down what all those obscure processes are. }}

Thanks for all your most helpful suggestions and critiques...and
patience. Believe me, you have accelerated my understanding of Linux
operations immensely. I will be referring to this, your latest
message, quite a few times in the next few weeks.

{{ Me, I'd not have done a text dump on it.  Summary might have been
interesting. }}

You're right, I just got lazy. More serious letters and articles have
been pressing on my cerebellum, so I didn't care to spend additional
thought on summarizing that page. Sorry, but it might happen again,
though I'll try to keep that to a bare minimum!

Time to reboot, and see how that 10 swappiness goes!  :\

-- 
Think Google's kewl? Think again:
http://www.google-watch.org/


From nick at zork.net  Thu Oct  1 03:04:11 2009
From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 11:04:11 +0100
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not.
In-Reply-To: <20090930235233.GX31333@linuxmafia.com>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420909301554p52dcbd6taa2276b8d3f0912@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090930235233.GX31333@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20091001100411.GA24771@zork.net>

Rick Moen:
> Mem:   2074864k total,  1194224k used,   880640k free,   168352k buffers
> Swap:  1951888k total,       88k used,  1951800k free,   196864k cached
> 
> Point is, swap isn't actually within a country mile of being "used" in
> any real sense, despite that "88k" thing, which really amounts to the
> swapper thread tapping gently on the swap partition to ensure that
> it's still there.

On servers, in particular, you do your level best to keep the situation
this way, because once you get yourself reliant on swap for providing
regular service, your throughput just becomes unacceptable.  

Earlier someone mentioned disabling swap entirely, and that is a pretty
drastic move.  Often it's mentioned that those 88k up there are useful
for smooth operation so that the swapper thread doesn't consume
resources trying to figure out if you have swap yet -- I'm not convinced
of the veracity of these claims, and lack the time or familiarity with
the current Linux kernel tree to verify for myself.

One thing I will say is that on a server that is in danger of thrashing,
it *can* be preferable to simply have no swap and let the OOMkiller do
its dirty business entirely in core.  This gets you an OOMkilled system
that is still responsive, and if there hasn't been some confusion you
can usually SSH in and restore normal operation quickly.  Contrast this
to swap thrashing followed by the OOMkiller: you're generally stuck with
a reboot at that point, and downtime is bounded by your hardware's POST.

In fact, I've found that on machines that are running horrible PHP
systems[1], the OOMkiller is uncannily accurate: it'll kill off apache
worker processes until it hits the right one, and the master is usually
left unscathed.  Kind of distressing to rely on the OOMkiller like this,
but it's a little more distressing to rely on PHP as far as I'm
concerned.

-- 
Schr?dinger's cat was an observer.
WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!  Stop the silence!

1: Eugh, there's a *special* DMZ for that crap, believe me -- too many
   people rely on eval() and importing code from http URLs and
   AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Oct  1 14:58:52 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:58:52 -0700
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not.
In-Reply-To: <20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com>

I wrote:
> Quoting Nick Moffitt (nick at zork.net):
> > Rick Moen:
> > > I tried replacing /usr/lib/libgconf2-4/gconfd-2 with a zero-length
> > > file, but then Firefox issues an _error_ at startup complaining that
> > > gconf isn't working -- and, again, there's no way to disable that
> > > behaviour.
> > 
> > Have you tried symlinking it to /bin/true?
> 
> Worth a shot, thanks.  I'll give that a try, next time I restart
> Iceweasel (Firefox).

What you get is an "An error has occurred while loading or saving
configuration information for firefox-bin.  Some of your configuration
settings may not work properly." dialogue.  Selecting Details shows:

   Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that
   you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS
   locks due to a system crash. See http://www.gnome.org/projects/gconf/
   for information. (Details -  2: IOR file '/tmp/gconfd-rmoen/lock/ior'
   not opened successfully, no gconfd located: No such file or directory)

(Message repeats four more times.)  Here's one of the many other people
encountering the problem:
http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/linux-applications/126396-firefox-3-problem-gconf.html

Now, zero of Firefox's functionality actually requires GNOME's gconfd 
configuration-management daemon in any way.  (It's probable that there's 
some cooperation concerning colours, keybindings, MIME-handling, "smart
bookmarks", etc., but I'm not interested.)  I'm gathering that Firefox's
developers simply decided to start feeding Firefox preferences settings
as XML data _to_ gconfd starting with the Firefox 3.0 series, and have
induced Firefox to bitch at startup time if it cannot hold a
conversation with gconfd.  Which explains why symliniking gconfd to
/bin/true doesn't suffice.

Here's the best explanation I've found:

   There *is* a gconf dependency in Firefox, but it is a "soft"
   dependency. While Firefox may not be actively using gconf2, it
   definitely now looks for and executes it if found. I found Mozilla dev
   posts that discussed having integrated Firefox with both the gconf
   (gnome config database) and gnomevfs (virtual file system) libraries. In
   the SUSE rpm, gconf2 is listed as a dependency. When either Firefox
   32-bit or 64-bit is executed, it invokes the gconf2 daemon (gconfd-2).
   On SUSE, the 32-bit looks for the file under /opt/gnome/ while the
   64-bit looks for it under /usr/lib/ (note: not /usr/lib64/). In
   Ksysguard you see gconf2 spawned by Firefox (if gconf2 is there); a few
   moments after closing Firefox gconf2 closes down. It seems it is there
   as a developer's option; on my system, the gconf database is empty, it
   is not being used for anything. This is not a SUSE-only thing. In the
   Mozilla .tar installation, having moved out the previous ~/.mozilla
   profile folder so that it gets re-created, Firefox still calls gconf2.
   There are also two libraries in the .tar that apparently are there in
   the event that gconf or gnomevfs is being used; they are in the
   /components folder as libmozgnome.so and libnkgnomevfs.so. They can be
   removed and Firefox still runs fine, but it still calls gconfd-2. So my
   specific problem was apparently caused by somehow losing a symlink
   (despite an rpm re-install of the 32-bit) from /usr/lib/ to /opt/gnome/
   where the 32-bit version, both the rpm and the Mozilla .tar, look for
   it. Adding the symlink solved the "missing gconfd-2" error.

Lots of KDE users on the Net are complaining about "crazy GNOME
dependencies" in Firefox 3.x, e.g., 
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mozillateam-bugs/2008-June/047450.html

See also:
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2008-July/002682.html



From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 16:08:57 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:08:57 -0700
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not.
In-Reply-To: <20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <a86954420910011608m395d7e05r46b2f53780c463f5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

{{ Lots of KDE users on the Net are complaining about "crazy GNOME
dependencies" in Firefox 3.x }}

Firefox 3.0 upgrade PO'd a lot of Windoze users some months back, by
reconfiguring the browser to be dependent on Internet Explorer
settings. This meant that those who turned off certain IE features for
the sake of better security, were forced to turn them back on. See
reader comments here:

Security Zone Policy Errors in Firefox 3:

http://www.firefoxfacts.com/2008/07/23/security-zone-policy-errors-in-firefox-3/

(It's a doozy of a dialogue, in which yours truly enjoyed participating.)

The Firefox folk seem to be shooting themselves in the foot...er,
"paw". IceWeasel here I come!

-- 
Think Google's kewl? Think again:
http://www.google-watch.org/


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Oct  1 16:39:55 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 16:39:55 -0700
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not.
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910011608m395d7e05r46b2f53780c463f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910011608m395d7e05r46b2f53780c463f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> The Firefox folk seem to be shooting themselves in the foot...er,
> "paw". IceWeasel here I come!

Just so you know:  the gconfd dependency I cited is _with Iceweasel
(Debian Firefox) -- in this case, v. 3.0.6.


As an aside, articles like this make me glad of any degree of
independent maintenance at the Debian Project, however, small:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13739_3-9776759-46.html

(You need to consider the NoScript, AddBlock or AdBlock Plus,
CustomizeGoogle, and User Agent Switcher extensions, if you haven't
already.  Also, I've just disabled Preferences, Security, checkboxes
"Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected attack site" and 
"Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected forgery", because 
I have no desire to have Iceweasel's Phishing and Malware Protection
routes check in with Google every 30 minutes to refresh blocklists, 
and no desire to have my browser report back on any aspect of my
browsing activy, e.g., my visits to a "reported phishing or malware site",
to Google.)




From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Oct  1 17:42:31 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:42:31 -0700
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not.
In-Reply-To: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910011608m395d7e05r46b2f53780c463f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20091002004231.GZ31333@linuxmafia.com>

I wrote:

> (You need to consider the NoScript, AddBlock or AdBlock Plus,
                                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> CustomizeGoogle, and User Agent Switcher extensions, if you haven't
> already.  Also, I've just disabled Preferences, Security, checkboxes
> "Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected attack site" and 
> "Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected forgery", because 
> I have no desire to have Iceweasel's Phishing and Malware Protection
> routes check in with Google every 30 minutes to refresh blocklists, 
> and no desire to have my browser report back on any aspect of my
> browsing activy, e.g., my visits to a "reported phishing or malware site",
> to Google.)

AdBlock Plus 1.1.1 requires a version of Firefox [/Iceweasel] later than
3.0.6, so I've upgraded to 3.0.14.  Also, most of the suggestions
in this essay and related reader comments are good ideas:

http://www.hermann-uwe.de/blog/configure-firefox-iceweasel-3-to-be-more-secure-usable-bearable


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Oct  1 18:01:43 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 18:01:43 -0700
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not.
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910010035u3ac318b7nc0432196b460ab2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420909301554p52dcbd6taa2276b8d3f0912@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090930235233.GX31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910010035u3ac318b7nc0432196b460ab2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091002010143.GA31333@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):
 
> What *prompted* me to ask about using swap on an external SDHC card,
> was that I read that solid state drives have a limited write capacity
> considerably lower than your standard hard drives...significant enough
> to be worth the trouble of moving swap off the SSD. Has nothing to do
> with excessive swap problems.

I understood all that, and used the phrase "excessive swap" to (in my
view) encompass _any_ swap activity on NAND flash devices.  (Both your
netbook's SSD and any SDHC cards are based on NAND flash chips.)

> --Here is my report:
> 
> Well, "sdc5" is the device label for my SDHC card's swap partition, so
> the line would read:
> 
>    /dev/sdc5       none            swap    sw              0       0
> 
> But it doesn't. Here's my fstab's present swap line:
> 
>    # swap was on /dev/sda5 during installation
>    UUID=d58c09be-5890-4cd3-93ba-67bb6f01bf3f none            swap    sw
> 
> Obviously, Ubuntu uses "universally unique identifier", so I found
> this help page:

Yes, you can fix that, if you wish, by replacing the unspeakable
UUID=foo strings with /dev/* nodenames.  I would.


> System Monitor 

I would not use or trust "System Monitor".  If you wish to convey
reliable information to other members of the *ix community, you should 
copy and paste from standard tools, e.g., ps, "cat /proc/meminfo", 
vmstat, and so on.

> What do I have running on my Eee PC 701SD at this moment?

I would not use or trust "System Monitor".  If you wish to convey
reliable information to other members of the *ix community, you should
copy and paste from standard tools, e.g., ps, "cat /proc/meminfo",
vmstat, and so on.

> However, Nautilus uses 10.5MB of RAM according to the processes
> list.

It is doubtful that you have any competent and reliable information
about the process list.  See foregoing.

Yes, ps and top are a bit peculiar and user-hostile, and the meaning of
VIRT, RES, SHR in top, and RSS, VSZ in ps are initially challenging.
It's worthwhile persevering, because it's real and meaningful.


> Time to reboot, and see how that 10 swappiness goes!  :\

Should work.  However, if you're going to be tweaking things like
swappiness, I might suggest keeping a written log on paper of a all
siginficant changes you make to your system, so you can backtrack
if something goes sideways.  Composition books and legal pads are
suitable, in my experience.



From itz at buug.org  Thu Oct  1 21:50:23 2009
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 21:50:23 -0700
Subject: [buug] iceweasel and gconf [Was:  Using swap on an SSD...or not.]
In-Reply-To: <20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com> (Rick Moen's message of
	"Thu\, 1 Oct 2009 14\:58\:52 -0700")
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <87zl8ae6wg.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>


I have got to bite.  There's absulutely no trace of gnome (including
gconf) on my system, but I don't seem to have this problem.  Why?

[5]matica:~$ dpkg --list iceweasel | grep '^ii'
ii  iceweasel                                                3.0.14-1 \
lightweight web browser based on Mozilla

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  1 23:57:12 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 23:57:12 -0700
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not.
In-Reply-To: <20091002010143.GA31333@linuxmafia.com>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420909301554p52dcbd6taa2276b8d3f0912@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090930235233.GX31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910010035u3ac318b7nc0432196b460ab2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002010143.GA31333@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <a86954420910012357r36ee1e17j98eca14487d3bd0f@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/09, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Yes, you can fix that, if you wish, by replacing the unspeakable
> UUID=foo strings with /dev/* nodenames.  I would.

I see what you mean. UUID, though correctly indicated in fstab, failed
to be recognized after the first time around. So I used /dev/sdc5, and
the swap works just fine. By default, Ubuntu uses UUID to indicate
partitions. Would you recommend I switch from UUID to /dev/sda1 for
the home partition, too, in fstab? I have no partitions except home
and swap, so it's a very simple setup.

> I would not use or trust "System Monitor".  If you wish to convey
> reliable information to other members of the *ix community, you should
> copy and paste from standard tools, e.g., ps, "cat /proc/meminfo",
> vmstat, and so on.

No problem. I will work on that, thanks.

-- 
Think Google's kewl? Think again:
http://www.google-watch.org/


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 00:07:57 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:07:57 -0700
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not. (ERRATA)
Message-ID: <a86954420910020007k1753c832r5ffc9d43e619c4f6@mail.gmail.com>

*sigh* Not meaning to confuse the issue, but I did, when I typed:

"Would you recommend I switch from UUID to /dev/sda1 for the home
partition, too, in fstab?"

I didn't mean the home partition, I meant the root "/". I have no
partition for /home. But I do back up /home frequently to an external
drive. So on my tiny netbook, I have one partition on the SSD proper,
which is of course root...and then the swap partition on the SDHC
card.


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 00:18:24 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:18:24 -0700
Subject: [buug] Iceweasel / Firefox (was: Using swap on an SSD...or not.)
Message-ID: <a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/1/09, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Just so you know:  the gconfd dependency I cited is _with Iceweasel
> (Debian Firefox) -- in this case, v. 3.0.6.

 : (

> As an aside, articles like this make me glad of any degree of
> independent maintenance at the Debian Project, however, small:
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13739_3-9776759-46.html

Among the comments was some rather persuasive opposition. My head hurts.

> (You need to consider the NoScript, AddBlock or AdBlock Plus,
> CustomizeGoogle, and User Agent Switcher extensions, if you haven't
> already.

Thanks for points well made. I've tightened my security on Firefox
now, too. But there is no way I'm going to limit my 'net activities to
text only! I presume that you believe IceWeasel or IceCat to be the
lesser of the security/privacy evils of all multimedia browers, at
this moment in cybertime?

-- 
Think Google's kewl? Think again:
http://www.google-watch.org/


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Oct  2 00:42:53 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:42:53 -0700
Subject: [buug] iceweasel and gconf [Was: Using swap on an SSD...or	not.]
In-Reply-To: <87zl8ae6wg.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com>
	<87zl8ae6wg.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20091002074253.GF31333@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Ian Zimmerman (itz at buug.org):

> I have got to bite.  There's absulutely no trace of gnome (including
> gconf) on my system, but I don't seem to have this problem.  Why?

What does "dpkg -l | grep libgconf" say?



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Oct  2 00:48:36 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:48:36 -0700
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not.
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910012357r36ee1e17j98eca14487d3bd0f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420909301554p52dcbd6taa2276b8d3f0912@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090930235233.GX31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910010035u3ac318b7nc0432196b460ab2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002010143.GA31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910012357r36ee1e17j98eca14487d3bd0f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091002074836.GG31333@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> I see what you mean. UUID, though correctly indicated in fstab, failed
> to be recognized after the first time around. So I used /dev/sdc5, and
> the swap works just fine. By default, Ubuntu uses UUID to indicate
> partitions. Would you recommend I switch from UUID to /dev/sda1 for
> the home partition, too, in fstab? I have no partitions except home
> and swap, so it's a very simple setup.

The best case for UUIDs involves mass-storage devices that you casually
add and remove from hot-swappable interfaces (such as USB, Firewire).
The idea is that you can specify mountpoints, item-specific action
rules, etc. that are completely unique to each physical device, and the
system will always do the right thing when you remove or add the device
from/to your system, without your having to do explicit "mount"
operations and/or mess around with the contents of /etc/fstab.

To stack the deck further in favour of UUIDs, also imagine that your
computer is used by a number of casual, non-technical users, to whom you
would not dream of granting root (or sudo-mediated equivalent) access.

If none of those conditions apply, _I_ would personally find it a great
deal more straightforward to use simple, old-fashioned /dev/* node
references.



From itz at buug.org  Fri Oct  2 00:52:34 2009
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 00:52:34 -0700
Subject: [buug] iceweasel and gconf
In-Reply-To: <20091002074253.GF31333@linuxmafia.com> (Rick Moen's message of
	"Fri\, 2 Oct 2009 00\:42\:53 -0700")
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com>
	<87zl8ae6wg.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<20091002074253.GF31333@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <87vdiydygt.fsf@matica.localdomain>


Rick> dpkg -l | grep libgconf 

[4]matica:~# dpkg -l | grep libgconf
[5]matica:~# 

I knew the answer without trying, as I have to check this anytime I
install stuff ..

--
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Oct  2 00:56:05 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:56:05 -0700
Subject: [buug] Iceweasel / Firefox (was: Using swap on an SSD...or	not.)
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091002075605.GH31333@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> Thanks for points well made. I've tightened my security on Firefox
> now, too. But there is no way I'm going to limit my 'net activities to
> text only! I presume that you believe IceWeasel or IceCat to be the
> lesser of the security/privacy evils of all multimedia browers, at
> this moment in cybertime?

I've not really tried any other alternatives, recently (e.g., IceCat, 
Epiphany, Konqueror, Google Chromium, Flock, Midori, Dillo), and Firefox
3.0.x has definitely met my needs.

I also do sometimes use lynx, links, and w3m, where appropriate.  ;->



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Oct  2 01:07:30 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 01:07:30 -0700
Subject: [buug] iceweasel and gconf
In-Reply-To: <87vdiydygt.fsf@matica.localdomain>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com>
	<87zl8ae6wg.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<20091002074253.GF31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87vdiydygt.fsf@matica.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20091002080730.GI31333@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Ian Zimmerman (itz at buug.org):

> [4]matica:~# dpkg -l | grep libgconf
> [5]matica:~# 

Well, I dunno, then.  Mine is a bog-standard Debian Lenny box, to the
best of my belief.

Maybe Jeff Waugh got tired of the "Jeff Waugh" item on the front page of
linuxmafia.com, and is breaking into my workstation to bog it down with
GNOME stuff.  ;->



From itz at buug.org  Fri Oct  2 01:10:17 2009
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:10:17 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was:  Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	(Pewter Bot's message of "Fri\, 2 Oct 2009 00\:18\:24 -0700")
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>


*** SIGH *** Time for my fav^H^H^Htedious email etiquette lecture ***SIGH ***

What email client ("mail user agent") do you use?  Your posts
consistently break threads.  This is really annoying for those of us who
are used to well-bahaved clients like mutt, Gnus or claws.  Even
Thunderbird does much better than this; if you don't want to invest time
right now in learning the more complex programs, please consider
Thunderbird (icedove in debian).

If you don't know what "breaking a thread" means, I'll give a hint and a
link.  Hint: a thread is *not* a set of posts with the same (or similar)
Subject.

Link:
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0822.txt

(section 4.6.2)

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 01:49:58 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 01:49:58 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was:  Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
Message-ID: <a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/2/09, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:

> What email client ("mail user agent") do you use?  Your posts
> consistently break threads.

I only post with enough quote for reference to a particular
thread...that, plus the original subject title preceded with "Re:"
should suffice. I learned many years ago, that netiquette requires
that one *not* repost the entirety of a message to which one responds.
Used to be, if one did not break that bad habit, the list manager
would bounce it back to you, and request you follow proper
netiquette.,,then try again.

Don't know why things have changed for the worst, among wizards...as
they should know better. Nowadays, even lists of longterm netizens are
constantly redundant and ridiculously lengthy messages, where brevity
in quotes is no longer the rule.

I was planning to bring this up, and ask why we now have a sea of type
in so many posts...which are only repeating previous messages over and
over again. Makes it very difficult and annoying to filter out older
statements, that one may find the current remark(s).

Had I created such redundantly-threaded posts on lists of old, I would
have been bannedd until I learned to respect email etiquette. Ironic
that, when I first began participating in email lists, I got burned
for not truncating the message of my reply into a brief quote...and
now, I'm getting burned for just the opposite.

If this is not what you mean, I have no idea then. Otherwise, I'm glad
you inspired me to bring this up. Don't expect me to change my ways.
AFAIK,  this rule of netiquette hasn't changed one iota. See:

Know What to Quote in Email Replies
http://email.about.com/cs/netiquettetips/qt/et012301.htm

How to Quote Original Messages Properly in Replies
http://email.about.com/cs/netiquettetips/qt/et090402.htm

> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0822.txt

Rather voluminous descriptions. Wouldn't it be friendlier to specify
which portion of this page relatest to your point at hand, rather than
just claim I'll find some "hint" in there?

-- 
Think Google's kewl? Think again:
http://www.google-watch.org/


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 01:57:17 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 01:57:17 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was:  Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
Message-ID: <a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/2/09, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:

> What email client ("mail user agent") do you use?

Can't you see my "from" line? That will answer your question.


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Oct  2 02:01:50 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 02:01:50 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was:  Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> I only post with enough quote for reference to a particular
> thread...

Um, Ian was talking about _threading_, not quoting.

> ...that, plus the original subject title preceded with "Re:"
> should suffice. 

No, that is dead wrong.  Please see the RFC to which Ian referred, for
the technical details.  Ian's correct:  Whatever you're using has been
breaking threading, resulting in various of your postings creating a new
(apparent) tree that should, on standards-compliant MUAs, have remained
within its original thread.

As Ian already said, a thread is not just a bunch of postings with the
same Subject header.  For example, my MUA, mutt, is inserting this
header in my reply to you:

In-Reply-To: <a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae at mail.gmail.com>

Inclusion of that header makes it easy for receiving MUAs to correctly
place this posting following the one with the referenced Message-ID,
i.e., your post.

Your software has been screwing that up.  FYI.  (I was certainly not
going to mention it, but figured I'd help clarify Ian's point, since
you didn't follow it.)




From nick at zork.net  Fri Oct  2 02:29:40 2009
From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:29:40 +0100
Subject: [buug] Using swap on an SSD...or not.
In-Reply-To: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
References: <a86954420909282338q240329aelae88ead98c1aa7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090929221908.GM31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<87my4dxe4f.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<20090930054757.GO31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20090930064821.GP14107@zork.net>
	<20090930082432.GS31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<20091001215852.GA15398@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910011608m395d7e05r46b2f53780c463f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20091002092937.GW29713@zork.net>

Rick Moen:
> You need to consider the NoScript, AddBlock or AdBlock Plus,
> CustomizeGoogle, and User Agent Switcher extensions, if you haven't
> already.  

Alas, if I could just get NoScript, Vimperator, and the "don't accept a
cookie without asking me" option in any of the newer browsers (*-webkit,
chromium, etc) I'd switch in a heartbeat.

-- 
A: No.
Q: Should I put my reply above quoted text?


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 11:10:23 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:10:23 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was: Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <a86954420910021110m53836c7we8db387090012238@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/2/09, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

{{ Your software has been screwing that up.  FYI.  (I was certainly not
going to mention it, but figured I'd help clarify Ian's point, since
you didn't follow it.) }}

My "software" is webmail...specifically, gmail. I usually add [buug]
to the subject header, if it is not already there. I figured it was
obvious I use gmail, considering that's indicated in my "from" line.
IOW: I do not use an email client.

Looking at the BUUG archives, my messages seem to be threaded
correctly.So I guess you are talking about the actual email
discussions, before they get put into the archives. (I receive daily
digest, and do not see my posts out of threaded order, either.) And I
guess that gmail doesn't have whatever you require re. mail header
settings?


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 11:20:11 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:20:11 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was: Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <a86954420910021120q66406a05ydeee0065caf0154c@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/2/09, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> As Ian already said, a thread is not just a bunch of postings with the
> same Subject header.  For example, my MUA, mutt, is inserting this
> header in my reply to you:
>
> In-Reply-To: <a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae at mail.gmail.com>

My response to Ian has the following "reply-to" line:

In-Reply-To: <87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_ at matica.localdomain>

Is this wrong? And how do I correct it? FYI, here's the entire header
of that message:

Delivered-To: pewterbot9 at gmail.com
Received: by 10.142.133.5 with SMTP id g5cs101208wfd;
        Fri, 2 Oct 2009 01:51:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.114.10.4 with SMTP id 4mr3652930waj.105.1254473477052;
        Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:51:17 -0700 (PDT)
Return-Path: <buug-bounces at weak.org>
Received: from weak.org (weak.org [216.231.36.232])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 33si1115598pzk.104.2009.10.02.01.51.16;
        Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:51:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of buug-bounces at weak.org
designates 216.231.36.232 as permitted sender)
client-ip=216.231.36.232;
Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of
buug-bounces at weak.org designates 216.231.36.232 as permitted sender)
smtp.mail=buug-bounces at weak.org
Received: from weak.org (list at weak.org [127.0.0.1])
	by weak.org (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n928oFOl010493;
	Fri, 2 Oct 2009 01:50:20 -0700
Received: from mail-pz0-f180.google.com (mail-pz0-f180.google.com
	[209.85.222.180])
	by weak.org (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n928o3nf010474
	for <buug at weak.org>; Fri, 2 Oct 2009 01:50:11 -0700
Received: by pzk10 with SMTP id 10so999493pzk.19
	for <buug at weak.org>; Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:49:58 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.142.66.21 with SMTP id o21mr328206wfa.47.1254473398401; Fri,
	02 Oct 2009 01:49:58 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_ at matica.localdomain>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807 at linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4 at mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_ at matica.localdomain>
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 01:49:58 -0700
Message-ID: <a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae at mail.gmail.com>
From: Pewter Bot <pewterbot9 at gmail.com>
To: buug at weak.org
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.4 required=4.3 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,SPF_PASS
	autolearn=no version=3.1.7-deb3
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7-deb3 (2006-10-05) on weak.org
Subject: Re: [buug] mail threading [Was:  Iceweasel / Firefox]
X-BeenThere: buug at weak.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Berkeley Unix User Group <buug.weak.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug>,
	<mailto:buug-request at weak.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug>
List-Post: <mailto:buug at weak.org>
List-Help: <mailto:buug-request at weak.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug>,
	<mailto:buug-request at weak.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: buug-bounces at weak.org
Errors-To: buug-bounces at weak.org


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Oct  2 11:57:25 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:57:25 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was: Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910021110m53836c7we8db387090012238@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021110m53836c7we8db387090012238@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091002185725.GL3807@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> My "software" is webmail...specifically, gmail. 

Well, here's the thing:  Although I'd personally have not mentioned the
matter, it's indeed a fact that your postings do sometimes display that
annoying habit.  One of the many reasons I use open source software on
my own machine is so I can avoid having to say "Sorry, I can't fix that;
it's the fault of [software foo] over which I have no control."

> Looking at the BUUG archives, my messages seem to be threaded
> correctly.

Sometimes, your postings start new threads when they should not.  This
is observable in any standards-compliant MUA.



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Oct  2 12:01:44 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 12:01:44 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was: Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910021120q66406a05ydeee0065caf0154c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021120q66406a05ydeee0065caf0154c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091002190144.GN31333@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> My response to Ian has the following "reply-to" line:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_ at matica.localdomain>
> 
> Is this wrong? And how do I correct it? FYI, here's the entire header
> of that message:

I'm very sorry to say that I have no time and energy to attempt to debug
GMail's headers.  I didn't mention the problem (and wouldn't have) in
the first place; Ian did.  And even if I did have time and energy
available to figure out what was wrong with GMail's implementation of
SMTP headers, it would still be a corporate-owned piece of proprietary
software, which I have no interest in spending my time fixing.


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 16:44:42 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 16:44:42 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was: Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <20091002190144.GN31333@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021120q66406a05ydeee0065caf0154c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002190144.GN31333@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <a86954420910021644w5540cb96qe56eef417dbfa2b7@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> I'm very sorry to say that I have no time and energy to attempt to debug
> GMail's headers. ?I didn't mention the problem (and wouldn't have) in
> the first place; Ian did.

Yes, and Ian should follow up, if this is so important to him. But
thanks for your input, just the same.

>?And even if I did have time and energy
> available to figure out what was wrong with GMail's implementation of
> SMTP headers, it would still be a corporate-owned piece of proprietary
> software, which I have no interest in spending my time fixing.

Just found this statement on
https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/fetchmail-users/2009-April/001883.html:

"To the best of my knowledge, GMail is not fully RFC compliant and does
strange things with labels, folders, and deletion."

But finding the specific RFC violations is another kettle of fish.
Gmail may or  may not be RFC compliant when it comes to any part of
the full header. And RFC problems w/Gmail may only be limited to POP,
not web.

I only suggested gmail may be the culprit...which is not the same
thing as claiming it actually is. Now, I don't plan to use gmail for
more than several more months...that will be the last Google service I
ever use. But I don't want to condemn gmail, or any other service, for
unfounded rationale...in this case, for breaking mailing list threads.

There are at *least* two other participants in this mailing list, who
use gmail. Are they also causing broken threads? Plus, I'm certain
this list will have an increasing number of gmail users in the near
future.

Hey, I'm as anal retentive as the next geek, but if Ian is so bothered
by this thread-breaking, it would seem he'd be at least as annoyed
over failure of almost every participant to trim their quotes...rather
than just piling old messages on top of old messages ad infinitum (or
until that particular thread dies).

I would like to know why this formerly strict rule in mailing
lists--at least by *nix advocates--has been allowed to fall by the
wayside. I remember when you'd be dragged across the cyber-coals for
not trimming your quotes...and keeping them to the barest minimum.

And it's not like maintaining this useful rule is so difficult.
Typically, the list mgr. would just bounce a non-trimmed message back
to the sender, requesting that he or she trim the post, and re-send.
100% effective in teaching newbies how to comply...and in keeping
others from getting lazy.

Anywayz, it's only an assumption that gmail is the culprit. Obviously,
the header lines I posted do not off the bat, give us a clue, else I'm
sure you'd spot it, Rick.

Nor has Ian's referring me to the RFC manual been any *real* help, if
he does not point me to whatever aspect of RFC non-compliance he has
in mind. Were he really so concerned, seems he would have bothered to
be at least a little more helpful. The RFC page is a complete listing
of all the rules...and I'm supposed to play a guessing game over which
one I've supposedly broken?

And it also seems rather disingenuous and hypocrticial to moan over
broken threads, when there's not a peep over non-trimming quotes,
reposting the same thread over and over again, in each message.

I do copy and paste a message to which I'm responding, from a digest
email. I insert the appropriate subject header (adding [buug] if not
there already, also "Re:"). And this may prove to be the actual
"culprit", not gmail. Because in such a case I am not carrying over
this original MUA, right?

Sometimes I respond directly to an indivual email, leaving out the
addie to the sender, and just keeping the one to BUUG (moving it from
"cc" to :send"). And in this case, the thread is not broken.

The archives seem to reconstruct the threads based on subject title,
rather than MUA...and that is why it appears all copasetic.

Did I figure out the problem; have I thought this through correctly?

Rick, I don't expect you to reply further, as you don't care to waste
your time with gmail crap. if Ian would be so kind as to respond, that
would be good.



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri Oct  2 17:29:43 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 17:29:43 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was: Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910021644w5540cb96qe56eef417dbfa2b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021120q66406a05ydeee0065caf0154c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002190144.GN31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021644w5540cb96qe56eef417dbfa2b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091003002943.GQ31333@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> Rick, I don't expect you to reply further, as you don't care to waste
> your time with gmail crap. if Ian would be so kind as to respond, that
> would be good.

No problem.  Just one thing that caught my eye:

[...]
> And it also seems rather disingenuous and hypocrticial to moan over
> broken threads, when there's not a peep over non-trimming quotes,
> reposting the same thread over and over again, in each message.

I think many old-timers simply got tired of being yelled back at 
for trying to assert netiquette standards in public, no matter how
politely.  Speaking for myself, I long ago gave up on even trying, and
instead take technical measures at _my_ end to try to retroactively 
fix defective postings I receive.

E.g., HTML-only postings are piped through w3m, such that I'm usually
only barely aware that the poster didn't use plaintext, and my MUA 
displays only the plaintext half of "multipart-alternative" posts,
my pager rewraps postings with paragraph-long lines with no hard
returns, etc.

If I were better at sed and awk, I'd write a re-quoting utility that 
automatically reformatted postings written in corporate style with
quotation of the entire preceding thread, newest on top and every single
preceding post beneath it.  That would be cool.  The point is that
netiquette faux pas that you can make transparently vanish through
technical means are ones you won't even see, and won't be bothered by.

I don't find it disingenuous and hypocritical to see a member of the 
traditional Internet culture suddenly express annoyance over one failure
to correctly uphold standards after holding his peace about many others.
Rather, I find it quite understandable.
 



From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  2 19:54:30 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 19:54:30 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was: Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <20091003002943.GQ31333@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021120q66406a05ydeee0065caf0154c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002190144.GN31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021644w5540cb96qe56eef417dbfa2b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091003002943.GQ31333@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <a86954420910021954md2f53abvfdcc34e7ef841a4f@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> I think many old-timers simply got tired of being yelled back at
> for trying to assert netiquette standards in public, no matter how
> politely.

I'm an old ttimer in that sense myself...and I have often brought up
the matter of trimming quotes...to no avial.  :(

I *could* have used Ian's approach, and just pointed to that RFC #
822 page, with no further explanation, as a "hint". Which would of
course, leave the person I address, in the dark...unless he were
psychic or something. Since that page *doesn't* discuss the matter of
trimming quotes...just as it doesn't discuss MUA.

> E.g., HTML-only postings are piped through w3m, such that I'm usually
> only barely aware that the poster didn't use plaintext,

My gmail default settings are for plain text. However, even plain text
has two options. Just yesterday, I changed "Use default text encoding
for outgoing messages" to "Use Unicode (UTF-8) encoding for outgoing
messages" in hopes of improving the situation.

Onward and upward!

-- 
Think Google's kewl? Think again:
http://www.google-watch.org/


From itz at buug.org  Fri Oct  2 21:44:45 2009
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 21:44:45 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	(Pewter Bot's message of "Fri\, 2 Oct 2009 01\:57\:17 -0700")
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>


Ian> What email client ("mail user agent") do you use?

Zeke> Can't you see my "from" line? That will answer your question.

You mean, like, Gmail via the browser?  There are ways to use a normal
specialized mail program with Gmail, you know:

http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=13287

In any case, that doesn't explain the absence of the threading headers
from your messages.  I use Gmail myself for "sacrificial" purposes
(when I don't mind my address potentially exposed to spammers) and it
seems to thread just fine; indeed, anything else would surprise given
Google's relatively high attention to standard adherence.  Here is a
bit of the headers from my recent message:

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e644c4d812bca504749d0b10
Received: by 10.100.6.20 with HTTP; Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:02:31 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <4AC04AED.5050304 at sfems.org>
References: <17af13780909252246l5615439flb2dad6f6d83587a9 at mail.gmail.com>
	 <4ABDD2FF.3090003 at sfems.org>
	 <17af13780909261128j5a2fa8f7jf27008757785cd4b at mail.gmail.com>
	 <4ABEB9D6.3090506 at sfems.org>
	 <17af13780909262349w4ce96a17w86711eaa9453b3a5 at mail.gmail.com>
	 <4AC04AED.5050304 at sfems.org>
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:02:31 -0700
Message-ID: <17af13780909272302u7846afeeod7d3b3f9f37eff1f at mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: charset missing on concert series page?

Also, I was wrong in thinking _all_ your posts were broken; the one I'm
replying to here seems to be just fine.  Hmm.  Maybe you sometimes do
something else than "Reply" or "Reply To All"?  I can see that if you
hover the mouse on the name of the sender it pops up a window with an
option to send.  Don't use that way when you want to continue an ongoing
discussion, please.  Always use the Reply To All feature in such cases.
That's how Gmail (or any other client) knows to insert the magic
treading headers.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.


From itz at buug.org  Fri Oct  2 22:02:54 2009
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 22:02:54 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910021954md2f53abvfdcc34e7ef841a4f@mail.gmail.com>
	(Pewter Bot's message of "Fri\, 2 Oct 2009 19\:54\:30 -0700")
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021120q66406a05ydeee0065caf0154c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002190144.GN31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021644w5540cb96qe56eef417dbfa2b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091003002943.GQ31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021954md2f53abvfdcc34e7ef841a4f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87my49rrwh.fsf@matica.localdomain>


Zeke> I *could* have used Ian's approach, and just pointed to that RFC #
Zeke> 822 page, with no further explanation, as a "hint". Which would of
Zeke> course, leave the person I address, in the dark...unless he were
Zeke> psychic or something. Since that page *doesn't* discuss the matter
Zeke> of trimming quotes...just as it doesn't discuss MUA.

You have said that before, but note that I'd pointed you to the specific
subsection about the In-Reply-To header.  I honestly felt I was providing
enough information for you to realize what was wrong.  Sorry if that wasn't
the case.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.


From itz at buug.org  Fri Oct  2 22:07:58 2009
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 22:07:58 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <20091003002943.GQ31333@linuxmafia.com> (Rick Moen's message of
	"Fri\, 2 Oct 2009 17\:29\:43 -0700")
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021120q66406a05ydeee0065caf0154c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002190144.GN31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021644w5540cb96qe56eef417dbfa2b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091003002943.GQ31333@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <87iqexrro1.fsf@matica.localdomain>


Rick> Speaking for myself, I long ago gave up on even trying,
Rick> and instead take technical measures at _my_ end to try to
Rick> retroactively fix defective postings I receive.

Indeed.  With Gnus (my preferred poison when it comes to MUAs) I can
actually re-thread an article with a few keystrokes, and that's what
I've been doing with Zeke's contributions for a while.  But the cup
runneth over ...

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.


From nick at zork.net  Sat Oct  3 09:06:57 2009
From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 17:06:57 +0100
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was: Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910021954md2f53abvfdcc34e7ef841a4f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021120q66406a05ydeee0065caf0154c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002190144.GN31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021644w5540cb96qe56eef417dbfa2b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091003002943.GQ31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021954md2f53abvfdcc34e7ef841a4f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091003160654.GY29713@zork.net>

Pewter Bot:
> -- 
> Think Google's kewl? Think again:
> http://www.google-watch.org/

That's quite a snarky signature for someone posting from gmail.  Stop
acting so helpless!

-- 
"It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to
find out how nature *is*.  Physics concerns what we can
*say* about nature."
                -- Niels Bohr


From nick at zork.net  Sat Oct  3 09:14:33 2009
From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 17:14:33 +0100
Subject: [buug] mail threading
Message-ID: <20091003161432.GZ29713@zork.net>

Ian Zimmerman:
> [...] I'd pointed you to the specific subsection about the In-Reply-To
> header.  

For those still interested in the mechanics of message threading in
e-mail, you may find Jamie Zawinsky's essay on the topic informative:

	http://www.jwz.org/doc/threading.html 

I'm told that it's showing signs of its age, but it's still the most
straightforward explanation of the topic that I can find.  Some folks
refer to this method as "the jwz threading algorithm".

An interesting point of note is that threading in mail is a back-port of
netnews threading, which has a slightly older history (despite e-mail
technically being older, it did not adopt threading in common practice
until relatively recently).

-- 
"Here is the memo if you didn't receive it: GNOME and
Free Software is all about *SAVING THE WORLD* not
drawing pissy little buttons on the screen."
                -- Jeff Waugh


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 11:21:07 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:21:07 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading [Was: Iceweasel / Firefox]
In-Reply-To: <20091003160654.GY29713@zork.net>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020149g43b94332k3b4f85081d8f91ae@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002090150.GL31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021120q66406a05ydeee0065caf0154c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091002190144.GN31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021644w5540cb96qe56eef417dbfa2b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091003002943.GQ31333@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910021954md2f53abvfdcc34e7ef841a4f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091003160654.GY29713@zork.net>
Message-ID: <a86954420910031121v57549e09t8c127eac48cc0dcf@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/09, Nick Moffitt <nick at zork.net> wrote:
> That's quite a snarky signature for someone posting from gmail.  Stop
> acting so helpless!

8-0


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 11:27:37 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:27:37 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
Message-ID: <a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/2/09, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:

> You mean, like, Gmail via the browser?  There are ways to use a normal
> specialized mail program with Gmail, you know:

You mean it actually works?

> Also, I was wrong in thinking _all_ your posts were broken; the one I'm
> replying to here seems to be just fine.  Hmm.  Maybe you sometimes do
> something else than "Reply" or "Reply To All"?

So there you have it. My explanation for why this happens at times was
posted in an earlier message. I use the digest mode, so can't always
use "reply to" any individual message...I have to recreate my message
and use "send". Not everyone who responds to another's email sends a
copy to the individual, just the list.


From itz at buug.org  Sat Oct  3 11:42:44 2009
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 11:42:44 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>
	(Pewter Bot's message of "Sat\, 3 Oct 2009 11\:27\:37 -0700")
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87r5tkpbdn.fsf@matica.localdomain>


Ian> You mean, like, Gmail via the browser?  There are ways to use a
Ian> normal specialized mail program with Gmail, you know:

Zeke> You mean it actually works?

Yes, as long as you do your own splitting into folders and not use
Google's "tags".  I've done it myself for a few months to years.

Zeke> So there you have it. My explanation for why this happens at times
Zeke> was posted in an earlier message. I use the digest mode, so can't
Zeke> always use "reply to" any individual message...I have to recreate
Zeke> my message and use "send". Not everyone who responds to another's
Zeke> email sends a copy to the individual, just the list.

The last sentence seems to be tangential?  There's another little
flamewar lurking there, but whether you use digests or not seems to be
independent of whether you reply just to the list, to the poster, or
both.

I remember I've tried to use digest mode with some lists in the past
but I gave up on that precisely for this reason.  Do you have a strong
preference for the digest way?

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  3 11:53:24 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:53:24 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <87r5tkpbdn.fsf@matica.localdomain>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tkpbdn.fsf@matica.localdomain>
Message-ID: <a86954420910031153u385fbefau75cc75bc8e957fcf@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/09, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:

> I remember I've tried to use digest mode with some lists in the past
> but I gave up on that precisely for this reason.  Do you have a strong
> preference for the digest way?

Of course! I don't care to have my mailbox flooded with email just
because I am subscribed to several mailing lists. I've been using the
digest mode for every list I belong to, for over 20 years.
AFAIK, this is why digest mode exists, and I see no real need to
defend my use of it.

The only complaints I ever got with my posting method was (ironically)
that I kept trimming my quotes (I did not comply). Actually, such
complaints only happend twice, several years ago.

Otherwise, I haven't had any disgruntled remarks about my list
posting, from digest mode. Not a one, in all ol 25 years. Till now.


From nick at zork.net  Sat Oct  3 12:24:07 2009
From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 20:24:07 +0100
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091003192403.GE29713@zork.net>

Pewter Bot:
> I use the digest mode, so can't always use "reply to" any individual
> message...I have to recreate my message and use "send". Not everyone
> who responds to another's email sends a copy to the individual, just
> the list.

Wait, WHAT?  Okay now I know you're trolling us.  Is there *really* a
good reason in 2009 to subscribe to ANY list in digest mode?  I thought
it was just a horrible hack from the days of UUCP and non-threaded
mailers.

And um, shouldn't gmail actually automatically stitch all this together
into a single "conversation" or some other tedious UI wart for you?  I
thought the point was that you'd *search* for "buug" instead of actually
sorting into a folder.

If people on gmail are resorting to *DIGEST* mode, then wow it's more
broken than I imagined!

-- 
"There should be a homonym exam before people are
issued keyboards."     -- George Moffitt


From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Sun Oct  4 10:37:09 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 10:37:09 -0700
Subject: [buug] "Slides" ... and notes!: 2009 OpenSource World (nee
	LinuxWorld	Conference & Expo),
	also Next Generation Data Center (NGDC) and CloudWorld
Message-ID: <20091004103709.14181mpfvuq0lz6s@webmail.rawbw.com>

The conference portion of 2009 OpenSource World / NGDC / CloudWorld was,
overall, rather to quite good[1].  The presentation "slides" are also
available[2] (as PDF files).  For those that might be interested,
I've also got my chicken-scratch notes from sessions and keynotes I
attended available on-line[3].

footnotes/references:
1. sessions/keynotes varied from fair through excellent
2. http://www.opensourceworld.com/presentations
3. look under: http://www.rawbw.com/~mp/linux/OpenSource_World/



From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 11:07:47 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 11:07:47 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <20091003192403.GE29713@zork.net>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091003192403.GE29713@zork.net>
Message-ID: <a86954420910041107i4f05d7b9s1d9a55839087e4f4@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/09, Nick Moffitt <nick at zork.net> wrote:

> Wait, WHAT?  Okay now I know you're trolling us.

You don't know that at all. In fact, you're being needlessly rude.
Please allow me to come to a happy resolution, without adding further
confusion.

-- 
Think Google's kewl? Think again:
http://www.google-watch.org/


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 11:08:49 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 11:08:49 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
Message-ID: <a86954420910041108k15ffbd13q28d59b3f87de83a7@mail.gmail.com>

Okay, I'm glad we eliminated one possible factor: gmail. Most likely
the solution is simple: don't change the subject header, keep it
exactly as it was when I got the mail...no "Re": or "[buug]" if it
doesn't already exist, I'll leave that for someone else. That should
solve the matter.

Or: I can wait until the digest shows up, and reply from within that
list. Rather than copy and paste...even though that has been my usual
method for years.


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 11:57:21 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 11:57:21 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <20091003192403.GE29713@zork.net>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091003192403.GE29713@zork.net>
Message-ID: <a86954420910041157n3c5e4d22x4b1067acad34657f@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/3/09, Nick Moffitt <nick at zork.net> wrote:
> If people on gmail are resorting to *DIGEST* mode, then wow it's more
> broken than I imagined!

Speaking of broken threads...if you look at the October archives,
you'll see I'm not the only one who has broken some
threads...inadvertantly though that may be.

http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug/2009-October/thread.html

In fact, that's you, Nick. In the first case, the subject header was
identical, yet thread seems to be broken anyway. In another case on
that same page, it's because you changed the title, even though
subject matter was identical. (Interesting that no one has complained
to you about your *two* broken links thus far in October, vs. my
*one*.)

As for Digest mode being outmoded in your eyes: well, if I want to
suffer a sea of text for every separate mail I receive from this list,
then I'd stop using digest. In a list that is composed *mostly* of
highly-experienced Unix and Linux users (a.k.a. "wizards"), I really
see no excuse for this. Since (1) y'all should know better and (2)
it's a low-volume participation list...so it's not like we're being
overwhelmed.

Were this list composed of more than 25% users being newbies who
refuse to follow netiquette, I could perhaps accept the "excuse" that
it's just too exhausting for those in the know, to keep correcting
newbies.

All I see here, is a bunch of wizards and geeks not following their
own rules of email etiquette, yet pouncing all over one who is well
meaning using digest mode, and accused of some horrid offense...not to
mention "trolling" as the latest false accusation. That is why I used
the words "disingenuous" and "hypocritical"...now, I will add the word
"pathetic". Like a bunch of grumpy old bears in hibernation whose
sleep has been disturbed.  :P

Nick: I'd like to know *your* opininon on not trimming quotes, and
therefore allowing messages to get longer and longer with each
reply...often when a responder replies with just one sentence.

My personal pref is message boards. Your mailbox doesn't get flooded
with user replies that are bloated with redundand copies of previous
replies. This really adds up if one joins three or more reasonably
active lists. And even if ordered through folders or tags, one must
still slog through these needlessly repetitious mails (where the same
thread is ever-growing and copied within each individual message)...in
order to find any new content.

With digest mode, all this sludge is eliminated, no muss, no fuss.
Better yet: if we used a message board, no one would be inconvenienced
by floods of mail. No issues over whether one should or shouldn't use
digest mode, because that is *so* old-fashioned (and don't you know
I'm so hip because I don't use digest, you must be a troll if you do).

Here is two important rules among many,  I learned about email
netiquette, way back in 1984:

1) Trim quotes, which also means do not include the entire thread up
to now in your mail, not even part of it.

-2) Send all messages to the list, not to individuals w/o their
express permission. (Under certain circumstances, one can post
privately to another, but you first need to get that person's
permission.) Besides, there is an option in most list servers, to
receive individual emails. Nonetheless, some ignore this rule, and
post both to the list and the person they are replying to...w/o
permission.

I am more than willing to work things out, even though it's rather
absurd to gripe about occasional breaking of a thread when the same
gripers don't bother to respect to respect these two rules cited
herein. They don't have a leg to stand on (so to speak).

So I will change my habits slightly, in order to humor a few
disgruntled old hibernating bears...knowing full well it is highly
unlikely they will offer in kind, to correct these other, far more
egregious, netiquette violations.

-- 
Think Google's kewl? Think again:
http://www.google-watch.org/


From nick at zork.net  Sun Oct  4 12:07:02 2009
From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 20:07:02 +0100
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910041157n3c5e4d22x4b1067acad34657f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091003192403.GE29713@zork.net>
	<a86954420910041157n3c5e4d22x4b1067acad34657f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091004190701.GU29713@zork.net>

Pewter Bot:
> http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug/2009-October/thread.html
> 
> In fact, that's you, Nick. In the first case, the subject header was
> identical, yet thread seems to be broken anyway. In another case on
> that same page, it's because you changed the title, even though
> subject matter was identical. (Interesting that no one has complained
> to you about your *two* broken links thus far in October, vs. my
> *one*.)

Dude, that's pipermail breaking the thread at the month boundary.

[tiresome defense of digest mode snipped]
> Nick: I'd like to know *your* opininon on not trimming quotes, and
> therefore allowing messages to get longer and longer with each
> reply...often when a responder replies with just one sentence.

I'm all for trimming quotes.  I think Rick has expressed an opinion on
the matter that very closely resembles my own.  Sorry, do you have an
example of me not trimming quoted text or something?  If so, please send
it to me off-list, because this conversation is less and less about Unix
or Berkeley or Using drugs.

-- 
Man, I love how everyone is like "In my blog, which is
a blog on the Internet, which you all may be interested
in visiting, I talked about what I am now saying here."
                            -- George Moffitt


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  4 12:15:33 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 12:15:33 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <20091004190701.GU29713@zork.net>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091003192403.GE29713@zork.net>
	<a86954420910041157n3c5e4d22x4b1067acad34657f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091004190701.GU29713@zork.net>
Message-ID: <a86954420910041215p5da3d488ja627286f0276818d@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/4/09, Nick Moffitt <nick at zork.net> wrote:

> I'm all for trimming quotes.

Fantastic.

> I think Rick has expressed an opinion on
> the matter that very closely resembles my own.

Quoting Rick [http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug/2009-October/003533.html]:

I think many old-timers simply got tired of being yelled back at
for trying to assert netiquette standards in public, no matter how
politely.  Speaking for myself, I long ago gave up on even trying, and
instead take technical measures at _my_ end to try to retroactively
fix defective postings I receive.


> Sorry, do you have an
> example of me not trimming quoted text or something?

Nope, I can't bother searching through the archives. I did want your
opinion, since there seems to be mostly silence in this matter, at
least when I brought it up. And a lot of noise about a broken thread.

> If so, please send
> it to me off-list, because this conversation is less and less about Unix
> or Berkeley or Using drugs.

I've had my say. This is my last message on this subject, no matter
how much others may continue to gripe and rant, and make false
accusations.


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Mon Oct  5 17:37:27 2009
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 17:37:27 -0700
Subject: [buug] mail threading
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910031153u385fbefau75cc75bc8e957fcf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20091001233955.GH3807@linuxmafia.com>
	<a86954420910020018k23822af6n187e0634af10e2a4@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tmdxna.fsf_-_@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910020157h2a6bde0ah21eaaa8193441d6d@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tlrsqq.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910031127k512f4474rc0e3c2c864b5e060@mail.gmail.com>
	<87r5tkpbdn.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<a86954420910031153u385fbefau75cc75bc8e957fcf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091006003727.GU31333@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Zeke Krahlin (pewterbot9 at gmail.com):

> Otherwise, I haven't had any disgruntled remarks about my list
> posting, from digest mode. Not a one, in all ol 25 years. Till now.

I'm not going to be complaining.  ;->

Digest mode _is_ problematic, even when used optimally, as you appear to
be doing.  I congratulate you sincerely, Zeke, for manually overcoming
the worst of its effects by manual trimming and formatting of your
posts, and copying/pasting the Subject header to make it appropriate to
the specific digest item to which you're responding.  The effort is
appreciated.

Usually, I can tell at an instant that someone's responding from a
digest because he/she breaks the thread _and_ posts with an
inappropriate Subject header _and_ quotes extraneous junk.  

I've actually seriously considered, on the mailing lists I administer,
disabling the availability of digest mode, on account of all those
problems.  Anyone inquiring after it would be gently helped to manage
mail better, e.g., filter incoming mailing list mail into a separate
folder, which isn't difficult.


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 00:50:20 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 00:50:20 -0700
Subject: [buug] CrunchBang
Message-ID: <a86954420910080050w608622bdp2ca6a0f148a3f2ef@mail.gmail.com>

I just learned about a *new* Linux distro called "CrunchBang". I now
have it on live CD (SDHC card), and am playing around with it. Looks
really nice and streamlined...definitely not for newbies...but I think
I'm ready for it. Just might install it on my 7"-screen netbook. After
all, that's what I bought it for, to mess around w/distros.

http://crunchbanglinux.org/

--quote:
CrunchBang Linux is an Ubuntu based distribution offering a great
blend of speed, style and substance. Using the nimble Openbox window
manager, it is highly customisable and provides a modern,
full-featured GNU/Linux system without sacrificing performance.
--end


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 00:55:03 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 00:55:03 -0700
Subject: [buug] Testing thread behavior (please ignore)
Message-ID: <a86954420910080055x3e78fbffv2e6c0d22bf2f22ba@mail.gmail.com>

Just testing several ways to post, using digest mode, to see which
methods maintain the thread. There will be no more than 5 messages.


From nick at zork.net  Thu Oct  8 02:19:08 2009
From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:19:08 +0100
Subject: [buug] Testing thread behavior (please ignore)
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910080055x3e78fbffv2e6c0d22bf2f22ba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420910080055x3e78fbffv2e6c0d22bf2f22ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20091008091903.GV26514@zork.net>

Pewter Bot:
> Just testing several ways to post, using digest mode, to see which
> methods maintain the thread. There will be no more than 5 messages.

That's not as reassuring as you may have previously thought.

-- 
"If, as they say, God spanked the town
for being over frisky,
why did He burn the churches down
and save Hotaling's whisky?" -- 1906 SF Earthquake rhyme


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 02:28:44 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 02:28:44 -0700
Subject: [buug] Testing thread behavior (please ignore)
In-Reply-To: <a86954420910080055x3e78fbffv2e6c0d22bf2f22ba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a86954420910080055x3e78fbffv2e6c0d22bf2f22ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a86954420910080228j2758a1c1g5fffa55e97e7a62f@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/09, Pewter Bot <pewterbot9 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just testing several ways to post, using digest mode, to see which
> methods maintain the thread. There will be no more than 5 messages.

Okay, I predict this post will be threaded properly. Using "Reply" to
myself. IOW, answering via individual e-mail.

Next up: change title *within* a reply.


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 02:34:37 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 02:34:37 -0700
Subject: [buug] Testing thread behavior (please ignore)
In-Reply-To: <20091008091903.GV26514@zork.net>
References: <a86954420910080055x3e78fbffv2e6c0d22bf2f22ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<20091008091903.GV26514@zork.net>
Message-ID: <a86954420910080234kd8c1189r4635adf0725e9382@mail.gmail.com>

On 10/8/09, Nick Moffitt <nick at zork.net> wrote:

> That's not as reassuring as you may have previously thought.

I once knew a miniature pinscher,
A female. I had to convince her
That the pants she wore
Made her look like a whore,
And she'd lose her position with Mensa.


From pewterbot9 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  8 11:01:55 2009
From: pewterbot9 at gmail.com (Pewter Bot)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:01:55 -0700
Subject: [buug] Testing thread behavior (please ignore)
Message-ID: <a86954420910081101o1b4099dfuc4be1aa4c78b73b@mail.gmail.com>

Exact same subject title, posted via "send" instead of "reply". One
more test mail to go.


From grantbow at gmail.com  Thu Oct 29 20:47:06 2009
From: grantbow at gmail.com (Grant Bowman)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:47:06 -0700
Subject: [buug] Ubuntu 9.10 released
In-Reply-To: <317e39f0910291612m29d9e932pe86d7877053c6943@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20091029142546.GB1674@dario.dodds.net>
	<317e39f0910291612m29d9e932pe86d7877053c6943@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <317e39f0910292047h5d5b96e9pb4360d113da684b0@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the message I sent to the Ubuntu California Team's mail
list with all the details.

Grant


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Grant Bowman <grantbow at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 4:12 PM
Subject: Fwd: Ubuntu 9.10 released
To: ubuntu-us-ca at lists.ubuntu.com


Ubuntu 9.10 Karmic Koala was released!

This is for those that aren't subscribed to
http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-announce yet. ?For
those interested in getting on IRC #ubuntu-release-party is the place
to be other than #ubuntu-california of course. ?Our events are coming
up as scheduled here
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/KarmicRelease - don't
be shy about organizing more events, even if it's just a few friends.

I will definitely have the downloadable images with me on USB sticks
so please just ask if you have your computer or if you bring a USB
stick and want a copy.

Party on,

Grant Bowman
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ubuntu Announcements <noreply at ubuntu.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 7:25 AM
Subject: Ubuntu 9.10 released
To: ubuntu-announce at lists.ubuntu.com


The Ubuntu team is pleased to announce Ubuntu 9.10 Desktop and Server
editions, Ubuntu 9.10 Server for Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud (UEC) and Amazon's
EC2, and Ubuntu Netbook Remix, continuing Ubuntu's tradition of integrating
the latest and greatest open source technologies into a high-quality,
easy-to-use Linux distribution.

Read more about the features of Ubuntu 9.10 in the following press releases:

?Desktop edition ? ?http://www.ubuntu.com/news/ubuntu-910
?Server edition ? ? http://www.ubuntu.com/news/ubuntu-910-server-edition

Ubuntu 9.10 will be supported for 18 months on both desktops and servers.
Users requiring a longer support lifetime on the server may choose to
continue using Ubuntu 8.04 LTS, with security support until 2013, rather
than upgrading to 9.10.

Thanks to the efforts of the global translation community, Ubuntu is
available in 25 languages. ?For a list of supported languages and detailed
translation statistics for these and other languages, see:

?https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/ReleaseLanguages/9.10

Ubuntu 9.10 includes the first official release of Ubuntu Server images for
UEC and for Amazon's EC2, giving you everything you need for rapid
deployment of Ubuntu instances in a cloud computing environment. UEC images,
and information on running Ubuntu 9.10 on EC2, are available at:

?http://uec-images.ubuntu.com/releases/9.10/release

Ubuntu 9.10 is also the basis for new 9.10 releases of Kubuntu, Xubuntu,
Edubuntu, UbuntuStudio, and Mythbuntu:

? ? ? ?Kubuntu ? ? ?http://kubuntu.org/news/9.10-release
? ? ? ?Xubuntu ? ? ?http://xubuntu.org/news/9.10-release
? ? ? Edubuntu ? ? ?http://edubuntu.org/news/9.10-release
? ? ?Mythbuntu ? ? ?http://mythbuntu.org/9.10/release
?Ubuntu Studio ? ? ?https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/9.10release_notes

To Get Ubuntu 9.10
------------------

To download Ubuntu 9.10, or obtain CDs, visit:

?http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu

Users of Ubuntu 9.04 will be offered an automatic upgrade to 9.10 via
Update Manager. ?For further information about upgrading, see:

?http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/upgrading

As always, upgrades to the latest version of Ubuntu are entirely free of
charge.

We recommend that all users read the release notes, which document
caveats and workarounds for known issues. ?They are available at:

?http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/910

Find out what's new in this release with a graphical overview:

?http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/910overview

If you have a question, or if you think you may have found a bug but
aren't sure, try asking on the #ubuntu IRC channel, on the Ubuntu Users
mailing list, or on the Ubuntu forums:

?#ubuntu on irc.freenode.net
?http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
?http://www.ubuntuforums.org/

Ubuntu 9.10 for ARM architectures
---------------------------------

Ubuntu 9.10 is available for the ARM architecture. ?Users should only
download these images if they have access to ARM chipsets or devices, as
they will not run on Intel-based machines.

Install instructions and images can be found here:

?http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/arm

Helping Shape Ubuntu
--------------------

If you would like to help shape Ubuntu, take a look at the list of ways
you can participate at:

?http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate/

About Ubuntu
------------

Ubuntu is a full-featured Linux distribution for desktops, laptops,
netbooks and servers, with a fast and easy install and regular releases. ?A
tightly-integrated selection of excellent applications is included, and an
incredible variety of add-on software is just a few clicks away.

Professional services, including support, are available from Canonical
Limited and hundreds of other companies around the world. ?For more
information about support, visit:

?http://www.ubuntu.com/support

More Information
----------------

You can find out more about Ubuntu and about this release on our website:

?http://www.ubuntu.com/

To sign up for future Ubuntu announcements, please subscribe to Ubuntu's
very low volume announcement list at:

?http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-announce

--
ubuntu-announce mailing list
ubuntu-announce at lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-announce



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Sat Oct 31 10:37:01 2009
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 10:37:01 -0700
Subject: [buug] Fwd: An Eagle Project (Berkeley: Sat. & Sun. Linux +
	hardware work	for needy school in Mexico)
Message-ID: <20091031103701.2786197av6zklgak@webmail.rawbw.com>



----- Forwarded message from zaryzen at gmail.com -----
     Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
     From: Kory <zaryzen at gmail.com>
Reply-To: berkeleylug at googlegroups.com
  Subject: An Eagle Project
       To: BerkeleyLUG <berkeleylug at googlegroups.com>


Hi, my name is Kory Malmrose, and I need help with my Eagle Project.
We've already acquired upwards of 40 systems(old ones, not all
working). We're going to be frankensteining them and bringing them up
to reasonable specs, then shipping them off to a needy school in Mexico
(through Kids on Computers). This saturday, at around 10, we'll get
started, and at around noon, pizza will be provided. Contact me at
zaryzen at gmail.com for directions.

--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google  
Groups "BerkeleyLUG" group.
To post to this group, send email to berkeleylug at googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to  
berkeleylug+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at  
http://groups.google.com/group/berkeleylug?hl=en
-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---


----- End forwarded message -----




From grantbow at gmail.com  Sat Oct 31 15:01:22 2009
From: grantbow at gmail.com (Grant Bowman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 15:01:22 -0700
Subject: [buug] REBUILD AFGHANISTAN SUMMIT 2009
In-Reply-To: <5fb387c70910311221i34696e46h90cef55ac266cf04@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5fb387c70910311221i34696e46h90cef55ac266cf04@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <317e39f0910311501uc557264kb4aedf28527d62e5@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sameer Verma <sverma at sfsu.edu>
Date: Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 12:21 PM
Subject: [OLPC-SF] REBUILD AFGHANISTAN SUMMIT 2009
To: OLPC SF <olpc-sf at lists.laptop.org>


Forwarding on behalf of Carol Ruth Silver.

==============================

You are invited to attend:

* * * * * * * * * *

? ?REBUILD AFGHANISTAN SUMMIT 2009

* * * * * * * * * *

Sunday, November 01, 2009 11:00 AM

Dominican University of California
Guzman Hall, 2nd floor
50 Acacia Avenue
San Rafael, CA

Registration begins at 11am. Program begins at 11:30 am, includes
speeches and two workshops ending at 4:30 with networking until 5:30
pm.

Admission is FREE!

Map & Directions at: ?http://www.afghansummit.org/index.html

Organizations wishing to participate should provide information to
afghanreconstruction at yahoo.com.

Keynote Speakers:

- Dr. Nahid Aziz ? Clinical Psychologist and Assoc. Prof., Argosy U.,
Washington, DC

- Norman Solomon ?Marin Author and Executive Director, Institute for
Public Accuracy

Both speakers will address the role of the local community in the
future of Afghanistan.

Join concerned citizens and members of non-profit organizations for
real conversations and some solutions to improving the lives of people
in Afghanistan.

Come hear the speakers, meet the participating organizations who will
have information, photos and opportunities to get involved at their
booths.
Try out the laptop computer used in the 'One Laptop Per
Child-Afghanistan' program!

There will be time for networking, workshops (on funding for projects,
education, mental health issues, art and archeology preservation in
Afghanistan and more), Afghan handicrafts for sale and refreshments.

For the summit schedule for the day, speaker Bios, links to the
participating organizations and all details, visit the Rebuild
Afghanistan Summit 2009 website at: www.afghansummit.org

To RSVP (with only your name and e-mail address) go to
http://rebuildafghanistansummit2009.eventbrite.com and click on
'Register'.

VOLUNTEERS NEEDED:

Contact Masood Sattari, Summit Chairperson, if you can volunteer to
help before and/or during the summit, at:
email: afghanreconstruction at yahoo.com
phone: (510) 612-5566

Box lunches available.
For directions and map to the campus go to
www.dominican.edu/about/campus/directionstocampus.html .


Hosted By:
Dominican University and Rebuild Afghanistan Summit 2009 Committee

Hope to see you there,
Rebuild Afghanistan Summit 2009 Committee
www.afghansummit.org
_______________________________________________
OLPC-SF mailing list
OLPC-SF at lists.laptop.org
http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sf