From khogoboom at gmail.com  Thu May  5 16:24:59 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 16:24:59 -0700
Subject: [buug] learning shell (Shell book), etc.
In-Reply-To: <20110416094220.360769l4tgmnkuo8@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <871v1890lc.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<BANLkTi=LMa_3mD+BtAu2-h9Q8vXK4gj_pg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110416094220.360769l4tgmnkuo8@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=vizpWOAz6dJM6d81Mk4-6-TttHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Michael, please tell me which book on UNIX you recommend if you have the
time and if you still think it's relevant.  I took a look at Ian's book, but
it's not the type of reference book that I find useful.  O'Reilly is not as
good as it used to be.

Karen

On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Michael Paoli <
Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Oh, there are definitely books on the topic, ... many, ... even
> rather/quite good ones.
>
> The reason I often/typically start folks with Bourne sh(1) from UNIX
> Seventh Edition (quoting myself[1]):
> o most of what one needs to use for scripting/programming purposes
>  exists in ye olde (UNIX Seventh Edition) Bourne Shell, and still
>  functions essentially the same way
> o Very concise reference: UNIX Seventh Edition sh(1) only 6 pages!
>
> If one wants more concise materials on shell than an entire book, one
> might also consider books on Unix, Linux or BSD or systems
> administration of same.  Such books will often have a chapter on the
> shell and shell programming.
>
> footnotes/references/excerpts:
> 1. http://www.rawbw.com/~mp/unix/sh/#Why_start_here
>
> From: "Karen Hogoboom" <khogoboom at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [buug] Shell book
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:09:31 -0700
>>
>
> Thanks Ian.  I would be interested in taking a look at it.  I'm planning to
>> be at the next meeting.
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, this is the book I mentioned at the last meeting.  It is a bit
>>> similar to the Kernighan & Pike but much updated and extended.
>>> Again, I can loan it to you if you're interested.
>>>
>>> http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596005955/
>>>
>>
>


-- 
Karen L. Hogoboom

http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Thu May  5 18:16:33 2011
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 18:16:33 -0700
Subject: [buug] learning shell (Shell book), etc. - objectives?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=vizpWOAz6dJM6d81Mk4-6-TttHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <871v1890lc.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<BANLkTi=LMa_3mD+BtAu2-h9Q8vXK4gj_pg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110416094220.360769l4tgmnkuo8@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<BANLkTi=vizpWOAz6dJM6d81Mk4-6-TttHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110505181633.53437tgzyk7t3j0g@webmail.rawbw.com>

Unix/Linux is quite relevant for many areas, shell is or may be rather
to quite relevant for many areas too.  Can you say a bit more about
objectives, or what you hope to find/achieve, or what you wish to
have/find in such book(s) you seek?  Perhaps a bit more about what you
did/didn't like in the book(s) you've looked at so far.

Besides myself, there are probably many on this list that may be able
to make some excellent recommendations - but it would likely help if we
better knew what you were more/most specifically interested in, and
perhaps also what type(s)/style(s) of books you find more - and less -
useful/effective for you (not everyone likes or prefers the same style
or type of book - different approaches and materials often work
differently for various folks).

Also, disclaimer :-) ... I've read *very* few shell books (close to
zero), so I'm probably not best one to make recommendation on *shell*
books.  I've read many Unix/Linux and related books - but there are
also many such books I've also not read - many of which may also be
good/excellent.  (In more recent years, I'm typically mostly reading
various bits of reference materials, articles, and the like, rather
than entire books on such topics ... though there are exceptions, and
sometimes I also use suitable books for reference or to clarify
points/areas that aren't otherwise documented or very well documented).

> From: "Karen Hogoboom" <khogoboom at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: learning shell (Shell book), etc.
> Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 16:24:59 -0700

> Michael, please tell me which book on UNIX you recommend if you have the
> time and if you still think it's relevant.  I took a look at Ian's book, but
> it's not the type of reference book that I find useful.  O'Reilly is not as
> good as it used to be.
>
> Karen
>
> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Michael Paoli <
> Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>> Oh, there are definitely books on the topic, ... many, ... even
>> rather/quite good ones.
>>
>> The reason I often/typically start folks with Bourne sh(1) from UNIX
>> Seventh Edition (quoting myself[1]):
>> o most of what one needs to use for scripting/programming purposes
>>  exists in ye olde (UNIX Seventh Edition) Bourne Shell, and still
>>  functions essentially the same way
>> o Very concise reference: UNIX Seventh Edition sh(1) only 6 pages!
>>
>> If one wants more concise materials on shell than an entire book, one
>> might also consider books on Unix, Linux or BSD or systems
>> administration of same.  Such books will often have a chapter on the
>> shell and shell programming.
>>
>> footnotes/references/excerpts:
>> 1. http://www.rawbw.com/~mp/unix/sh/#Why_start_here
>>
>> From: "Karen Hogoboom" <khogoboom at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [buug] Shell book
>>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:09:31 -0700
>>>
>>
>> Thanks Ian.  I would be interested in taking a look at it.  I'm planning to
>>> be at the next meeting.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, this is the book I mentioned at the last meeting.  It is a bit
>>>> similar to the Kernighan & Pike but much updated and extended.
>>>> Again, I can loan it to you if you're interested.
>>>>
>>>> http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596005955/
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Karen L. Hogoboom
>
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom



From khogoboom at gmail.com  Thu May  5 20:02:35 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 20:02:35 -0700
Subject: [buug] (forw) List owner needed for
	callug_announce@lists.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: <20110419201620.GG26669@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20110419201620.GG26669@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=7Oaj5yoATNswDZEG__6UXMowTWA@mail.gmail.com>

I am not sure what a current member means.  I am a graduate of U.C. Berkeley
and I am a member of the Alumni Association and I am a member of LBL, but I
do not work (as in receive a paycheck) from any of them.

I would only be willing to caretake the list if someone would be willing to
pay me actual money for doing so.

Karen

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Same concern applies.
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Consult <consult at berkeley.edu> -----
>
> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:18:46 -0000
> From: Consult <consult at berkeley.edu>
> To: callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu
> Subject: List owner needed for callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu
>
> We are sending you this message because your email account is currently
> subscribed to callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu.  Please disregard this
> message if you are not
> a current member of the University of California, Berkeley.
>
> It has come to our attention that the callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edumailing
> list no longer has a current owner. If anyone on the list with a valid
> affiliation with the campus would like to take over as owner, please
> write to consult at berkeley.edu
>
> If we do not hear from anyone within one month, the list will be deleted.
>
> Thank you.
>
> -CalMail Staff
>
>
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen L. Hogoboom

http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Thu May  5 20:19:24 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 20:19:24 -0700
Subject: [buug] (forw) List owner needed for
	callug_discuss@lists.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: <20110420170138.GR26669@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20110419201546.GF26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<20110419202824.GA23917@ykcyc>
	<20110419210059.GI26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTimBbk-6hTQWjJf1JCKiEx1-bibRMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110420170138.GR26669@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=nBgt+Jdb9xdwCPUtsRTJ+zZXhDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> My friend Grant wrote:
>
> > No other distribution has been as successful reaching out to
> > "simple end users" as the Ubuntu community project.
>
> Aren't you forgetting TiVos?  ;->


Ubuntu is in TiVos?  The recording device for televisions?  If so, thanks
for that bit of info.


> --
> Karen L. Hogoboom
>
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
>
>
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From togo at of.net  Thu May  5 20:56:25 2011
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 20:56:25 -0700
Subject: [buug] learning shell (Shell book), etc.
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=vizpWOAz6dJM6d81Mk4-6-TttHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <871v1890lc.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<BANLkTi=LMa_3mD+BtAu2-h9Q8vXK4gj_pg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110416094220.360769l4tgmnkuo8@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<BANLkTi=vizpWOAz6dJM6d81Mk4-6-TttHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=JiNb7oJ76oEQ8RHy1qbK7d_b3JQ@mail.gmail.com>

>? O'Reilly is not as
> good as it used to be.
...

Really?  What other examples do you have?


From khogoboom at gmail.com  Thu May  5 22:42:19 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 22:42:19 -0700
Subject: [buug] learning shell (Shell book), etc.
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=JiNb7oJ76oEQ8RHy1qbK7d_b3JQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <871v1890lc.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<BANLkTi=LMa_3mD+BtAu2-h9Q8vXK4gj_pg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110416094220.360769l4tgmnkuo8@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<BANLkTi=vizpWOAz6dJM6d81Mk4-6-TttHQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=JiNb7oJ76oEQ8RHy1qbK7d_b3JQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik6UgVBavk+NxXJkR5=cpOVz0MyeQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've read a number of them.  Then I read the Oracle System Administration
book and that's when they started not having what I was looking for.  Not as
clear and concise.  Not really covering what I needed to know to understand
the topic.  Worse writing.  I don't have time to check my bookshelf right
now.  After I didn't get paid for my book, then I started being pickier
about what other people's software books I was willing to pay for.

Karen

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Tony Godshall <togo at of.net> wrote:

> >  O'Reilly is not as
> > good as it used to be.
> ...
>
> Really?  What other examples do you have?
>



-- 
Karen L. Hogoboom

http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Thu May  5 22:55:22 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 22:55:22 -0700
Subject: [buug] CalLUG discussion at BUUG & Berkeley Linux Users Group
 meetings (?) ...
In-Reply-To: <20110422164422.GD26669@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20110420144751.GM26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<20110420222314.10805e8con2j2twc@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<BANLkTimMx5_cFvHGOq=7k_2B8Sjnnrgmow@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110422164422.GD26669@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikMTisp13sWmhre6QCWB7xVdvbF=w@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I'm sorry to hear that someone stood up and ranted very loudly at the
> meeting -- but it wasn't me.  And I'm extremely sympathetic to what you
> were saying the other day about women attending technology events (not
> just BUUG) getting interrupted and ignored.  I've seen it, and tried to
> fix it.  It's a real, longtime problem, and I take it seriously.
>
>
Thanks for saying that Rick.  I really appreciate it.


>  _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen L. Hogoboom

http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From excelblue at gmail.com  Thu May  5 23:25:15 2011
From: excelblue at gmail.com (Mark Lu)
Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 23:25:15 -0700
Subject: [buug] (forw) List owner needed for
	callug_announce@lists.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=7Oaj5yoATNswDZEG__6UXMowTWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110419201620.GG26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTi=7Oaj5yoATNswDZEG__6UXMowTWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DC3944B.7080202@gmail.com>

I have just sent an email to consult at berkeley.edu expressing interest in 
maintaing these lists in anticipation for the reestablishment of CalLUG. 
I will follow up with an update once I get one.

On 05/05/2011 08:02 PM, Karen Hogoboom wrote:
> I am not sure what a current member means.  I am a graduate of U.C. 
> Berkeley and I am a member of the Alumni Association and I am a member 
> of LBL, but I do not work (as in receive a paycheck) from any of them.
> I would only be willing to caretake the list if someone would be 
> willing to pay me actual money for doing so.
> Karen
>
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com 
> <mailto:rick at linuxmafia.com>> wrote:
>
>     Same concern applies.
>
>     ----- Forwarded message from Consult <consult at berkeley.edu
>     <mailto:consult at berkeley.edu>> -----
>
>     Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:18:46 -0000
>     From: Consult <consult at berkeley.edu <mailto:consult at berkeley.edu>>
>     To: callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu
>     <mailto:callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu>
>     Subject: List owner needed for callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu
>     <mailto:callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu>
>
>     We are sending you this message because your email account is
>     currently
>     subscribed to callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu
>     <mailto:callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu>.  Please disregard
>     this message if you are not
>     a current member of the University of California, Berkeley.
>
>     It has come to our attention that the
>     callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu
>     <mailto:callug_announce at lists.berkeley.edu> mailing
>     list no longer has a current owner. If anyone on the list with a valid
>     affiliation with the campus would like to take over as owner, please
>     write to consult at berkeley.edu <mailto:consult at berkeley.edu>
>
>     If we do not hear from anyone within one month, the list will be
>     deleted.
>
>     Thank you.
>
>     -CalMail Staff
>
>
>
>     ----- End forwarded message -----
>     _______________________________________________
>     Buug mailing list
>     Buug at weak.org <mailto:Buug at weak.org>
>     http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Karen L. Hogoboom
>
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug



From pi at berkeley.edu  Thu May  5 23:39:21 2011
From: pi at berkeley.edu (Paul Ivanov)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 02:39:21 -0400
Subject: [buug] (forw) List owner needed for
 callug_announce@lists.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: <4DC3944B.7080202@gmail.com>
References: <20110419201620.GG26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTi=7Oaj5yoATNswDZEG__6UXMowTWA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4DC3944B.7080202@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110506063921.GC4146@ykcyc>

Hi Mark,

Mark Lu, on 2011-05-05 23:25,  wrote:
> I have just sent an email to consult at berkeley.edu expressing interest
> in maintaing these lists in anticipation for the reestablishment of
> CalLUG. I will follow up with an update once I get one.

I already did this back when Rick sent a note about both lists,
and am now the list owner.

I have made you a moderator.

best,
-- 
Paul Ivanov
http://pirsquared.org | GPG/PGP key id: 0x0F3E28F7
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From pi at berkeley.edu  Thu May  5 23:52:23 2011
From: pi at berkeley.edu (Paul Ivanov)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 02:52:23 -0400
Subject: [buug] (forw) List owner needed for
 callug_discuss@lists.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=nBgt+Jdb9xdwCPUtsRTJ+zZXhDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110419201546.GF26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<20110419202824.GA23917@ykcyc>
	<20110419210059.GI26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTimBbk-6hTQWjJf1JCKiEx1-bibRMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110420170138.GR26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTi=nBgt+Jdb9xdwCPUtsRTJ+zZXhDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110506065223.GD4146@ykcyc>

Karen Hogoboom, on 2011-05-05 20:19,  wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:
> 
> > My friend Grant wrote:
> >
> > > No other distribution has been as successful reaching out to
> > > "simple end users" as the Ubuntu community project.
> >
> > Aren't you forgetting TiVos?  ;->
> 
> 
> Ubuntu is in TiVos?  The recording device for televisions?  If so, thanks
> for that bit of info.

I think that was a tongue-in-cheek comment from Rick - in that
TiVo uses GNU/Linux (though not Ubuntu) in their set-top boxes, and
have a widely used product, but there was some controversy
surrounding how TiVo complied with the terms of the GPL, read
more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization

best,
-- 
Paul Ivanov
http://pirsquared.org | GPG/PGP key id: 0x0F3E28F7
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May  6 00:00:18 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 00:00:18 -0700
Subject: [buug] learning shell (Shell book), etc.
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=JiNb7oJ76oEQ8RHy1qbK7d_b3JQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <871v1890lc.fsf@matica.localdomain>
	<BANLkTi=LMa_3mD+BtAu2-h9Q8vXK4gj_pg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110416094220.360769l4tgmnkuo8@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<BANLkTi=vizpWOAz6dJM6d81Mk4-6-TttHQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTi=JiNb7oJ76oEQ8RHy1qbK7d_b3JQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110506070018.GR26187@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Tony Godshall (togo at of.net):
> Karen Hogoboom wrote:

>>O'Reilly is not as good as it used to be.
> 
> Really?  What other examples do you have?

Speaking just for myself, I concluded in the '80s that O'Reilly &
Associates (now O'Reilly Media) books weren't living up to reputation.
E.g., the Bat Book certainly had somewhere within it everything knowable
about Sendmail, but in such impenetrable presentation that you'd never
find what you needed to know until long after you needed it.  Cricket
Liu's _DNS and BIND_ proved to be a really awful way to learn either DNS
or BIND, and I did better when I disregarded it and learned from
friends' examples and other sources.  I think the Rubicon was a
circa-1988 book on administering Internet services that was utterly
useless.  After that, I've never, ever bought one of their books simply
on trust.


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May  6 00:27:51 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 00:27:51 -0700
Subject: [buug] (forw) List owner needed for
 callug_discuss@lists.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=nBgt+Jdb9xdwCPUtsRTJ+zZXhDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110419201546.GF26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<20110419202824.GA23917@ykcyc>
	<20110419210059.GI26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTimBbk-6hTQWjJf1JCKiEx1-bibRMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110420170138.GR26669@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTi=nBgt+Jdb9xdwCPUtsRTJ+zZXhDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110506072751.GS26187@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Karen Hogoboom (khogoboom at gmail.com):

> Ubuntu is in TiVos?  The recording device for televisions?  If so, thanks
> for that bit of info.

Yes, every single TiVo runs a Linux distribution published for TiVo,
Inc. for that purpose -- and is used every day by the hordes of people
who claim, idiotically, that Linux is not ready for 'simple end users'.

Grant was claiming that Ubuntu is unsurpassed among Linux distributions
at reaching out to 'simple end users'.  This is a traditional (and
meaningless, and tired) bit of advocacy rhetoric among Ubuntu partisans.
We're supposed to think that Ubuntu is A Good Thing because it is
alleged that some unspecified and unmeasured number of 'simple end users' 
are claimed on the basis of no credible data to run Ubuntu.  (We've
heard this sort of thing before.  It used to be said about Red Hat
Linux.)

Even if you grant the various underlying assumptions -- which I do not
-- Grant has conveniently forgotten a number of other Linux
distributions that are rather more well targeted at 'simple end users',
including the (non-Ubuntu, just to be clear) distribution embedded into
every single TiVo.

One could equally well cite any number of other specialised Linux
distributions that are all markedly more usable by 'simple end users'
than is Ubuntu, e.g., various Linux loads onto smartphone handsets by
Motorola, NEC, Panasonic, Samsung and a range of regional players like
China's Datang, Haier, Huawei and ZTE, and by any number of
manufacturers of SOHO wireless / network gateway devices.

And no, that was not 'tongue in cheek'.  That was absolutely serious,
and I'm really tired of the bullshit advocacy from partisans of a really
rather poorly debugged, inflexible, and bloated desktop distro du jour.




From itz at buug.org  Fri May  6 15:38:37 2011
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 15:38:37 -0700
Subject: [buug] Topics from last meeting
Message-ID: <20110506153837.6b437ead@foolinux.dyndns.org>

Here's the link about the weird language I mentioned last night:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/06/amazon_tribe_sh/

How people at Pompeii died:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/11/101102/pompeii-mount-vesuvius-science-died-instantly-heat-bodies/

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.


From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Fri May 13 06:41:39 2011
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 06:41:39 -0700
Subject: [buug] BALUG Tu 2011-05-17: Cloud.com's Mark Hinkle, VP of Community,
	on:	Open Source Solutions for Building and Deploying Private and
	Public Clouds	& other BALUG news
Message-ID: <20110513064139.89945pgeqd7y3tcs@webmail.rawbw.com>

In this issue (details further below):

2011-05-17: Cloud.com's Mark Hinkle, VP of Community, on: Open Source
     Solutions for Building and Deploying Private and Public Clouds

"Slides" from 2011-04-19 BALUG meetnig:
     GlusterFS - Petascale Cloud Filesystem, Anand Babu (AB) Periasamy,
     CTO Gluster

------------------------------

Bay Area Linux User Group (BALUG) meeting
Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2011-05-17

Please RSVP if you're planning to come (see further below).

For our Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2011-05-17 meeting, we're proud to present:

Cloud.com[1]'s Mark Hinkle, VP of Community, on:
Open Source Solutions for Building and Deploying Private and Public
Clouds

As cloud computing has moved beyond hype, becoming a true
enterprise-ready tool that cuts IT costs and fits a variety of use
cases, IT is seeking new ways to efficiently and cost-effectively
build, deploy and manage clouds. Cloud.com's CloudStack Community
Edition, available under the GPLv3 license, is an open sourced
Infrastructure as a Service (IaaS) software platform that simplifies
the creation and management of public and private clouds. This platform
seamlessly integrates with existing data center infrastructure without
the need for modifications, special-purpose hardware or
reconfiguration, making it possible for users to instantly realize the
benefits of the cloud.

CloudStack Community Edition delivers several benefits including:

o Massive computing power - providing virtually unlimited CPUs
   on-demand, as required and billed by actual usage in public, private
   or hybrid deployments.
o Powerful API - Easily build, integrate and use applications based on
   common cloud APIs like Amazon's Web Services API, Citrix Cloud CenterT
   (C3) API and the vCloud API
o Secure Cloud Computing - Isolating compute, network, and storage
   resources by user, location and deployment.
o Comprehensive Service Management - Defining, metering, deploying and
   managing services to be consumed within your cloud.
o Automated resource distribution - delivering capabilities to automate
   the distribution of compute, network and storage while adhering to
   defined policies on load balancing, data security and compliance.
o Real-time visibility and reporting capabilities - ensuring compliance,
   security and comprehensive metering customer usage.
o Simplified management - empowering administrators to offset the daily
   management of services to the end users with a powerful self-service
   portal that gives the day-to-day management tasks to the user,
   enabling administrators to focus on more business critical issues
   while giving the client more control and agility over the service by
   providing a catalog of custom built and pre-defined machine images.

This session will provide best practices for building clouds, and a
technical overview and demonstration of CloudStack.

Mark Hinkle is Cloud.com's Vice President of Community where he is
responsible for driving all of the community efforts around the
Cloud.com's leading open source, cloud computing software and
ecosystem. Before that he was the force behind the Zenoss Core open
source management projects adoption and community involvement, growing
community membership to over 100,000 members.  He is a co-founder of
both the Open Source Management Consortium and the Desktop Linux
Consortium, has served as Editor-in-Chief for both LinuxWorld Magazine
and Enterprise Open Source Magazine, and authored the book, "Windows to
Linux Business Desktop Migration" (Thomson, 2006). Mark has also held
executive positions at a number of technology start-ups, including
Earthlink, (previously MindSpring)--where he was the head of the
technical support organization recognized by PC Computing and PC World
as the best in the industry--Win4Lin and Emu Software.

1. http://www.cloud.com/


See also a bit further below for some additional goodies we'll have at
this meeting (CDs, etc.)

So, if you'd like to join us please RSVP to:

                       rsvp at balug.org

**Why RSVP??**

Well, don't worry we won't turn you away, but the RSVPs really help the
Four Seas Restaurant plan the meal and dining arrangements and such.
We've also tweaked our "door prize" / giveaway practices a bit - so
RSVPing and arriving sufficiently on time increases one's odds of
winning door prize(s) and/or getting first or earlier pick of giveaway
items.

Meeting Details...

                       6:30pm
                       Tuesday, May 17th, 2011 2011-05-17

                       Four Seas Restaurant http://www.fourseasr.com/
                       731 Grant Ave.
                       San Francisco, CA 94108
                       Easy PARKING:
                         Portsmouth Square Garage at 733 Kearny:
                         http://www.sfpsg.com/

Cost: The meetings are always free, but for dinner, for your gift of $13
       cash, we give you a gift of dinner - joining us for a yummy
       family-style Chinese dinner - tax and tip included (your gift
       also helps in our patronizing the restaurant venue and helping
       to defray BALUG costs such treating our speakers to dinner).

Additional goodies we'll have at this meeting (at least the following):

CDs, etc. - have a peek here:
http://www.wiki.balug.org/wiki/doku.php?id=balug:cds_and_images_etc
We do also have some additional give-away items, and may have
"door prizes".

------------------------------

"Slides" from 2011-04-19 BALUG meetnig:
GlusterFS - Petascale Cloud Filesystem, Anand Babu (AB) Periasamy, CTO Gluster
see:
http://www.archive.balug.org/2011/2011-04-19/GlusterFS%20-%20Petascale%20Cloud%20Filesystem.pdf

------------------------------

Feedback on our publicity/announcements (e.g. contacts or lists where we
should get our information out that we're not presently reaching, or
things we should do differently): publicity-feedback at balug.org

------------------------------

http://www.balug.org/



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Tue May 17 16:22:11 2011
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 16:22:11 -0700
Subject: [buug] Fwd: Free MeeGo Conference Starts Saturday (SF)
Message-ID: <20110517162211.522231ullk2fvrc4@webmail.rawbw.com>


----- Forwarded message from petermui at gmail.com -----
     Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 21:15:38 -0700
     From: "Peter Mui" <petermui at gmail.com>
  Subject: Free MeeGo Conference Starts Saturday
       To: "Michael Paoli" <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>

(Hi Michael: can you please post to SF-LUG and to any other local LUGs  
as appropriate?  Many thanks, -Peter)

There's a free MeeGo Conference in SF at the Hyatt Embarcadero Center  
starting Saturday May 21. If you're unfamiliar with MeeGo: it's the  
Linux Foundation's mobile operating system (endorsed by Intel and  
Nokia) and is fully and truly open source -- from the kernel to the  
development tools. The Qt/QML SDK for MeeGo has an excellent  
reputation for portability and ease-of-use, so you can create  
cross-platform apps for IOS, Android, MeeGo, embedded devices, etc.

Go to http://sf2011.meego.com/ to register and learn more about the  
conference.  If you're totally new to MeeGo there are free  
introductory tutorials Sat-Sun May 21-22. If you're an app developer  
Intel will be teaching how to port apps to MeeGo and their app store:  
http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Conference_Spring_2011#Schedule

What:  SF MeeGo Conference
Where: Hyatt Regency Hotel, 5 Embarcadero, SF
When:  May 21-25 (tutorials S-S, sessions M-W)
Why:   To learn about MeeGo, expand your mobile development chops,  
make friends, have fun!
How:   Register at http://sf2011.meego.com/  
(http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Conference_Spring_2011#Schedule for Intel  
Sunday developer event)
Cost:  FREE


----- End forwarded message -----



From cjr at grundrisse.org  Fri May 20 08:52:43 2011
From: cjr at grundrisse.org (Claude Rubinson)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 10:52:43 -0500
Subject: [buug] GUI wrapper for CLI programs?
Message-ID: <20110520155243.GJ1814@wagner>

Hi all, 

I've developed a suite of commandline programs for conducting social
research.  They're all designed as filters, reading from stdin and
writing to stdout/stderr.  Standard stuff.  Implementation is Python2.

What I'd like to do is develop a GUI wrapper around this suite for
non-commandline use.  This application would basically be a
commandline prompt plus menu bar and tool bar.  From the menu bar, the
user could click "Analyze -> $FOO_TEST" and a dialog box would pop up
for the user to enter the parameters for $FOO_TEST.  When the user
clicked "Ok", the application would build the commandline string, echo
it to the main window, and execute it.  The idea would be to gently
introduce the user to using the commandline but hold the user's hand
through it.

This seems like a fairly obvious idea, so I'm wondering if such a
solution might already exist?  It does need to be cross-platform (Win,
OSX, and Unix).

Thanks,

Claude


From itz at buug.org  Fri May 20 09:05:33 2011
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 09:05:33 -0700
Subject: [buug] GUI wrapper for CLI programs?
In-Reply-To: <20110520155243.GJ1814@wagner>
References: <20110520155243.GJ1814@wagner>
Message-ID: <20110520090533.65921f4a@foolinux.dyndns.org>

On Fri, 20 May 2011 10:52:43 -0500
Claude Rubinson <cjr at grundrisse.org> wrote:

Claude> What I'd like to do is develop a GUI wrapper around this suite
Claude> for non-commandline use.  This application would basically be a
Claude> commandline prompt plus menu bar and tool bar.  From the menu
Claude> bar, the user could click "Analyze -> $FOO_TEST" and a dialog
Claude> box would pop up for the user to enter the parameters for
Claude> $FOO_TEST.  When the user clicked "Ok", the application would
Claude> build the commandline string, echo it to the main window, and
Claude> execute it.  The idea would be to gently introduce the user to
Claude> using the commandline but hold the user's hand through it.

Claude> This seems like a fairly obvious idea, so I'm wondering if such
Claude> a solution might already exist?  It does need to be
Claude> cross-platform (Win, OSX, and Unix).

Python/Tk ?

Without the x-platform requirement, I'd say Emacs :-P

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.


From cjr at grundrisse.org  Fri May 20 09:51:43 2011
From: cjr at grundrisse.org (Claude Rubinson)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 11:51:43 -0500
Subject: [buug] GUI wrapper for CLI programs?
In-Reply-To: <20110520090533.65921f4a@foolinux.dyndns.org>
References: <20110520155243.GJ1814@wagner>
	<20110520090533.65921f4a@foolinux.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20110520165143.GL1814@wagner>

On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 09:05:33AM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2011 10:52:43 -0500
> Claude Rubinson <cjr at grundrisse.org> wrote:
> 
> Claude> What I'd like to do is develop a GUI wrapper around this suite
> Claude> for non-commandline use.  This application would basically be a
> Claude> commandline prompt plus menu bar and tool bar.  From the menu
> Claude> bar, the user could click "Analyze -> $FOO_TEST" and a dialog
> Claude> box would pop up for the user to enter the parameters for
> Claude> $FOO_TEST.  When the user clicked "Ok", the application would
> Claude> build the commandline string, echo it to the main window, and
> Claude> execute it.  The idea would be to gently introduce the user to
> Claude> using the commandline but hold the user's hand through it.
> 
> Claude> This seems like a fairly obvious idea, so I'm wondering if such
> Claude> a solution might already exist?  It does need to be
> Claude> cross-platform (Win, OSX, and Unix).
> 
> Python/Tk ?

I realize that I can write it myself but I'm thinking that maybe
somebody else has already done the heavy lifting.  There are a bunch
of tools for writing "quick and easy" GUI frontends to commandline
programs; what I haven't yet found is one that also embeds a command
prompt.  (So maybe what I'm proposing is a wrapper around a terminal
program.)

> Without the x-platform requirement, I'd say Emacs :-P

Emacs is cross-platform!  But if the target population was Emacs
users, I wouldn't have any need for a GUI frontend in the first place.

Claude


From itz at buug.org  Fri May 20 12:23:06 2011
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 12:23:06 -0700
Subject: [buug] GUI wrapper for CLI programs?
In-Reply-To: <20110520165143.GL1814@wagner>
References: <20110520155243.GJ1814@wagner>
	<20110520090533.65921f4a@foolinux.dyndns.org>
	<20110520165143.GL1814@wagner>
Message-ID: <20110520122306.7f12f3a8@foolinux.dyndns.org>

On Fri, 20 May 2011 11:51:43 -0500
Claude Rubinson <cjr at grundrisse.org> wrote:

Ian> Python/Tk ?

Claude> I realize that I can write it myself but I'm thinking that maybe
Claude> somebody else has already done the heavy lifting.  There are a
Claude> bunch of tools for writing "quick and easy" GUI frontends to
Claude> commandline programs; what I haven't yet found is one that also
Claude> embeds a command prompt.  (So maybe what I'm proposing is a
Claude> wrapper around a terminal program.)

Maybe if you post pointers to the tools you've seen, we could suggest a
way to add a prompt to one of them.  I myself do not know any such
tools.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org>
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Ham is for reading, not for eating.


From jzitt at josephzitt.com  Sat May 21 12:42:33 2011
From: jzitt at josephzitt.com (Joseph Zitt)
Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 15:42:33 -0400
Subject: [buug] LaTeX Font issues
Message-ID: <BANLkTinZE7BE_6Hxuvh5uhuW-fWpfjb7CQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm dealing with a large (but, I think, relatively simple) LaTeX
document. When I generate PDF with pdflatex and use pdffonts against
it, I get the following output:

KAFZAE+CharterBT-Bold                Type 1            yes yes no       4  0
YZIHQV+CharterBT-Italic              Type 1            yes yes no       5  0
[none]                               Type 3            yes no  no      13  0
[none]                               Type 3            yes no  no      14  0
YJRZQT+CharterBT-Roman               Type 1            yes yes no      15  0
ZPGLFL+SFSS1000                      Type 1            yes yes no      19  0
YKGNBT+CharterBT-Roman-Slant_167     Type 1            yes yes no      33  0
[none]                               Type 3            yes no  no      49  0
KTWLZF+SFTT1000                      Type 1            yes yes no     731  0

When I then verify it with Adobe Acrobat Pro (required by my
publisher), It reports that I have four Type 3 fonts, ostensibly named
F23, F24, F49 and F50, which are used but not embedded. The publisher
requires that all fonts (even the Base 14 fonts often skipped) must be
embedded.

Is there a way to find out what the mystery Type 3 fonts are, and how
to make sure that they are embedded?

-- 
Joseph Zitt ::http://www.josephzitt.com


From cjr at grundrisse.org  Mon May 23 16:31:34 2011
From: cjr at grundrisse.org (Claude Rubinson)
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 18:31:34 -0500
Subject: [buug] GUI wrapper for CLI programs?
In-Reply-To: <20110520090533.65921f4a@foolinux.dyndns.org>
References: <20110520155243.GJ1814@wagner>
	<20110520090533.65921f4a@foolinux.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20110523233134.GR1814@wagner>

On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 09:05:33AM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2011 10:52:43 -0500
> Claude Rubinson <cjr at grundrisse.org> wrote:
> 
> Claude> What I'd like to do is develop a GUI wrapper around this suite
> Claude> for non-commandline use.  This application would basically be a
> Claude> commandline prompt plus menu bar and tool bar.  From the menu
> Claude> bar, the user could click "Analyze -> $FOO_TEST" and a dialog
> Claude> box would pop up for the user to enter the parameters for
> Claude> $FOO_TEST.  When the user clicked "Ok", the application would
> Claude> build the commandline string, echo it to the main window, and
> Claude> execute it.  The idea would be to gently introduce the user to
> Claude> using the commandline but hold the user's hand through it.
> 
> Claude> This seems like a fairly obvious idea, so I'm wondering if such
> Claude> a solution might already exist?  It does need to be
> Claude> cross-platform (Win, OSX, and Unix).
> 
> Python/Tk ?
> 
> Without the x-platform requirement, I'd say Emacs :-P

Ian -- You're a genius.  Emacs might actually be the perfect solution.
I can implement the program as a minor mode that executes against
Eshell and get Emacs' portability for free.  I need to investigate how
this will work with MS Windows, but that should just be details.

The potential downside to this approach is that Emacs' complexity is
waiting to ensnare the unsuspecting user.  The whole reason for
writing this point and click interface is to accommodate the non-Unix
userbase.  But I can invoke cua-mode by default which should help with
this somewhat.

Claude


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed May 25 20:10:34 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 20:10:34 -0700
Subject: [buug] Linux Mint, Ultimate Edition
Message-ID: <20110526031034.GB18884@linuxmafia.com>

My friend Grant Bowman has said here a few times what members of the
Ubuntu community tend to say a great deal.  (I don't mean to denigrate
Grant, who wears many hats including Fedora Ambassador.)  Let me quote
one iteration of a fairly standard Ubuntu speech:

   I think we [Grant and Larry Cafiero] agree that Ubuntu with its 
   community groups, state by state local community structure, 
   focus on the desktop experience and existing user population 
   (especially in Berkeley from what I can tell) act as "training 
   wheels" into the Linux world for newcomers to begin using
   Linux. No other distribution has been as successful reaching out to
   "simple end users" as the Ubuntu community project.

The project's recent marketing reach has been undeniable, much of it
made possible by the efforts of volunteers like Grant.  However, whether 
it has actually _met_ the needs, real or perceived, of those 'simple end
users' is a more complex question.  (And that's without even talking
about Unity, Mac-styled buttons for no reason other than marketing,
etc.)

Complex or not, I'm obliged to grapple with it because I maintain some
widely used Web pages that have been up since around '94, many of 
which directly address newcomers' choices, attempting to advise them.
Maintenence of such pages is an ongoing chore:  You vgrep your old pages
and suddenly say 'Huh?  Installation floppies?  What's that still doing
there?'  Anyway, today I was de-cobwebbing one of the 'I'm new to Linux' 
items, http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=kicking#distro , 
and was obliged to do some hard thinking about its recommendation until
today of Ubuntu / Kubuntu / Xubuntu / Lubuntu in the top tier.

Problem is:  Some of the stuff new users typically seek (proprietary
codecs and such; see below), and complain about the absence of, _is
missing_ by default.  By policy.  I respect those omissions; there are
good reasons for them, and there are 'restricted formats' pages (etc.)
about how to retrofit them. 

And yet the point remains.  

Linux Mint and Ultimate Edition are Ubuntu with those things merged in.
So, if the aim is to make things as easy as humanly possible for 'simple
end users', shouldn't they merit higher recommendation?  Shouldn't
PCLinuxOS, MEPIS Linux, and Zenwalk Linux _also_ merit higher
recommendation by that same reasoning?


Here is my revised Q&A on that point, flattened to ASCII.  (Visit above
URL for the version with links and markup intact.)



Q:  Which Linux distribution should I get? Which distribution is             
friendliest to new users? Should I get Ubuntu?                           


A: Linux poses three distinct challenges: building, administering, and
using the system. You might be ecstatic with a Linux system constructed
and configured for you, but will (if you're an "ease of use" person)
probably be unhappy with the unfamiliar challenge of loading any
operating system on Intel-type PCs. (MS-Windows is typically
mis-perceived as "easy to install" by those who never install OSes, and
who use whatever comes pre-loaded.)

You can buy pre-assembled, pre-configured Linux systems from many
vendors. Those I know of in the San Francisco Bay Area are included in
my Other Local Linux Resources list. Please note that all of them do
mail-order business. Additionally, you can buy a hard drive pre-loaded
with a configured Linux distribution from Cosmos Engineering.

The questions of which distribution is "best" and which is "friendliest"
are both inherently debatable: Most opinions you'll hear will be both
bigoted and based on incomplete, out-of-date information concerning most
(or, often, nearly all) alternatives.  Anyone who tries to give you an
easy answer to either question is trying to sell you something.

You, for your part, should think long and carefully before you ask such
questions: Are you even serious about trying Linux at all?  How are you
going to distinguish between competent, relevant answers and blasts of
hot air from people barely less ill-informed than you are?

No, you should not automatically gravitate towards Ubuntu, just because
that distribution is best-known in the USA. (Before 2011, this FAQ item
used to say "Red Hat" rather than "Ubuntu", but the distribution touted
to the masses changes from year to year.) One of the glories of Linux is
the richness of choices that you can sample many of at low cost.
Consider trying several of them consecutively, using one of the
multi-distribution jewel-case sets described in a prior section.

I _personally_ strongly prefer the Debian distribution, especially for
servers. However, newcomers should consider starting with Linux Mint,
Ultimate Edition, MEPIS Linux, PCLinuxOS, or Zenwalk Linux, for desktop
Linux machines (not Debian).

The "Ubuntu" distribution family, comprising Ubuntu Linux / Kubuntu /
Lubuntu / Xubuntu (a single base distribution with your choice of four
desktop environments) is focussed on new users but has ongoing
moderately serious bug problems (less so in the "LTS" = Long-Term
Support releases), omits support for proprietary AV formats (including
Adobe Flash and MP3s) and Hollywood-type movie DVD playback for
understandable reasons of legal complications, omits some similar
popular proprietary software such as proprietary Sun Java, and popular
proprietary hardware drivers such as those for Nvidia and ATI video
chips (albeit quite good open source drivers are provided), for some
problematic wireless chips, etc.  Linux Mint and Ultimate Edition, cited
earlier, are Ubuntu-family distributions from outside maintainers that
merge in those "desktop enhancements" so they work out of the box, but
are otherwise pretty much the same as standard Ubuntu.

If you want a cutting-edge but at least somewhat new-user-friendly Linux
distribution but are not fixated on out-of-the-box support for
proprietary AV formats, DVD playback, the Adobe Flash browser plugin,
etc., then openSUSE, Kademar, aptosid, and Mageia all merit
consideration.

If you're undecided on the question, read Karsten's Distributions Guide,
consult DistroWatch, and consult the Linux Distribution Chooser, first.

You may also find it interesting to compare the "look" of different
desktop environments and window managers at the "Window Managers for X"
pages.


From khogoboom at gmail.com  Thu May 26 04:20:36 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 04:20:36 -0700
Subject: [buug] Linux Mint, Ultimate Edition
In-Reply-To: <20110526031034.GB18884@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20110526031034.GB18884@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=cJxJ36rXHe7FivkUchtYha4_-OQ@mail.gmail.com>

Why are there iMacs at LHS?

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> My friend Grant Bowman has said here a few times what members of the
> Ubuntu community tend to say a great deal.  (I don't mean to denigratek.
> Grant, who wears many hats including Fedora Ambassador.)  Let me quote
> one iteration of a fairly standard Ubuntu speech:
>
>   I think we [Grant and Larry Cafiero] agree that Ubuntu with its
>   community groups, state by state local community structure,
>   focus on the desktop experience and existing user population
>   (especially in Berkeley from what I can tell) act as "training
>   wheels" into the Linux world for newcomers to begin using
>   Linux. No other distribution has been as successful reaching out to
>   "simple end users" as the Ubuntu community project.
>
> The project's recent marketing reach has been undeniable, much of it
> made possible by the efforts of volunteers like Grant.  However, whether
> it has actually _met_ the needs, real or perceived, of those 'simple end
> users' is a more complex question.  (And that's without even talking
> about Unity, Mac-styled buttons for no reason other than marketing,
> etc.)
>
> Complex or not, I'm obliged to grapple with it because I maintain some
> widely used Web pages that have been up since around '94, many of
> which directly address newcomers' choices, attempting to advise them.
> Maintenence of such pages is an ongoing chore:  You vgrep your old pages
> and suddenly say 'Huh?  Installation floppies?  What's that still doing
> there?'  Anyway, today I was de-cobwebbing one of the 'I'm new to Linux'
> items, http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=kicking#distro ,
> and was obliged to do some hard thinking about its recommendation until
> today of Ubuntu / Kubuntu / Xubuntu / Lubuntu in the top tier.
>
> Problem is:  Some of the stuff new users typically seek (proprietary
> codecs and such; see below), and complain about the absence of, _is
> missing_ by default.  By policy.  I respect those omissions; there are
> good reasons for them, and there are 'restricted formats' pages (etc.)
> about how to retrofit them.
>
> And yet the point remains.
>
> Linux Mint and Ultimate Edition are Ubuntu with those things merged in.
> So, if the aim is to make things as easy as humanly possible for 'simple
> end users', shouldn't they merit higher recommendation?  Shouldn't
> PCLinuxOS, MEPIS Linux, and Zenwalk Linux _also_ merit higher
> recommendation by that same reasoning?
>
>
> Here is my revised Q&A on that point, flattened to ASCII.  (Visit above
> URL for the version with links and markup intact.)
>
>
>
> Q:  Which Linux distribution should I get? Which distribution is
> friendliest to new users? Should I get Ubuntu?
>
>
> A: Linux poses three distinct challenges: building, administering, and
> using the system. You might be ecstatic with a Linux system constructed
> and configured for you, but will (if you're an "ease of use" person)
> probably be unhappy with the unfamiliar challenge of loading any
> operating system on Intel-type PCs. (MS-Windows is typically
> mis-perceived as "easy to install" by those who never install OSes, and
> who use whatever comes pre-loaded.)
>
> You can buy pre-assembled, pre-configured Linux systems from many
> vendors. Those I know of in the San Francisco Bay Area are included in
> my Other Local Linux Resources list. Please note that all of them do
> mail-order business. Additionally, you can buy a hard drive pre-loaded
> with a configured Linux distribution from Cosmos Engineering.
>
> The questions of which distribution is "best" and which is "friendliest"
> are both inherently debatable: Most opinions you'll hear will be both
> bigoted and based on incomplete, out-of-date information concerning most
> (or, often, nearly all) alternatives.  Anyone who tries to give you an
> easy answer to either question is trying to sell you something.
>
> You, for your part, should think long and carefully before you ask such
> questions: Are you even serious about trying Linux at all?  How are you
> going to distinguish between competent, relevant answers and blasts of
> hot air from people barely less ill-informed than you are?
>
> No, you should not automatically gravitate towards Ubuntu, just because
> that distribution is best-known in the USA. (Before 2011, this FAQ item
> used to say "Red Hat" rather than "Ubuntu", but the distribution touted
> to the masses changes from year to year.) One of the glories of Linux is
> the richness of choices that you can sample many of at low cost.
> Consider trying several of them consecutively, using one of the
> multi-distribution jewel-case sets described in a prior section.
>
> I _personally_ strongly prefer the Debian distribution, especially for
> servers. However, newcomers should consider starting with Linux Mint,
> Ultimate Edition, MEPIS Linux, PCLinuxOS, or Zenwalk Linux, for desktop
> Linux machines (not Debian).
>
> The "Ubuntu" distribution family, comprising Ubuntu Linux / Kubuntu /
> Lubuntu / Xubuntu (a single base distribution with your choice of four
> desktop environments) is focussed on new users but has ongoing
> moderately serious bug problems (less so in the "LTS" = Long-Term
> Support releases), omits support for proprietary AV formats (including
> Adobe Flash and MP3s) and Hollywood-type movie DVD playback for
> understandable reasons of legal complications, omits some similar
> popular proprietary software such as proprietary Sun Java, and popular
> proprietary hardware drivers such as those for Nvidia and ATI video
> chips (albeit quite good open source drivers are provided), for some
> problematic wireless chips, etc.  Linux Mint and Ultimate Edition, cited
> earlier, are Ubuntu-family distributions from outside maintainers that
> merge in those "desktop enhancements" so they work out of the box, but
> are otherwise pretty much the same as standard Ubuntu.
>
> If you want a cutting-edge but at least somewhat new-user-friendly Linux
> distribution but are not fixated on out-of-the-box support for
> proprietary AV formats, DVD playback, the Adobe Flash browser plugin,
> etc., then openSUSE, Kademar, aptosid, and Mageia all merit
> consideration.
>
> If you're undecided on the question, read Karsten's Distributions Guide,
> consult DistroWatch, and consult the Linux Distribution Chooser, first.
>
> You may also find it interesting to compare the "look" of different
> desktop environments and window managers at the "Window Managers for X"
> pages.
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu May 26 07:29:48 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 07:29:48 -0700
Subject: [buug] Linux Mint, Ultimate Edition
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=cJxJ36rXHe7FivkUchtYha4_-OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110526031034.GB18884@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTi=cJxJ36rXHe7FivkUchtYha4_-OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110526142947.GT4536@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Karen Hogoboom (khogoboom at gmail.com):

> Why are there iMacs at LHS?

1.  Please don't threadjack.

2.  After briefly wondering what left-hand side, Lowell High School,
luminance-hue-saturation, or Latin Hypercube Sampling had to do with
the desktop-feature-rich Linux Mint and Ultimate Edition Linux
distributions, I sipped my morning coffee deeply and guesstimated that you 
are curious about computing equipment at the _Lawrence Hall of Science_.  
I say this pro bono publico, in case others are as non-plussed by the
non-sequitur question as I was.

3.  Why is a raven like a writing desk?

-- 
Cheers,       "Please proofread your feature titles. We don't need more letters
Rick Moen     from people reminding us that Mothra's Day isn't until August."
rick at linuxmafia.com                                       -- Fake AP Stylebook
McQ!  (4x80)


From itz at buug.org  Thu May 26 11:45:03 2011
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:45:03 -0700
Subject: [buug] Linux Mint, Ultimate Edition
In-Reply-To: <20110526142947.GT4536@linuxmafia.com> (Rick Moen's message of
	"Thu, 26 May 2011 07:29:48 -0700")
References: <20110526031034.GB18884@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTi=cJxJ36rXHe7FivkUchtYha4_-OQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110526142947.GT4536@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <8739k1fgi8.fsf@foolinux.dyndns.org>


Rick> 3.  Why is a raven like a writing desk?

Because of insufficient mileage.  See my signature.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu May 26 11:46:51 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:46:51 -0700
Subject: [buug] Linux Mint, Ultimate Edition
In-Reply-To: <8739k1fgi8.fsf@foolinux.dyndns.org>
References: <20110526031034.GB18884@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTi=cJxJ36rXHe7FivkUchtYha4_-OQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110526142947.GT4536@linuxmafia.com>
	<8739k1fgi8.fsf@foolinux.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20110526184651.GD18884@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Ian Zimmerman (itz at buug.org):

> Rick> 3.  Why is a raven like a writing desk?
> 
> Because of insufficient mileage.  See my signature.

I always rather liked Martin Gardner's best of several candidate answers,
in _The Annotated Alice_:  'Because they were both written on by Poe.'

-- 
Cheers,                                "The first thing I do in the morning
Rick Moen                              is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue."
rick at linuxmafia.com                                           -- Dorothy Parker 
McQ!  (4x80)


From jb at caustic.org  Thu May 26 12:10:47 2011
From: jb at caustic.org (Johan Beisser)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:10:47 -0700
Subject: [buug] Macs at Laurence Hall of Science
Message-ID: <BANLkTikR2EP4n47LtEhHSS8ZfnFenRzVqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 4:20 AM, Karen Hogoboom <khogoboom at gmail.com> wrote:
> Why are there iMacs at LHS?

Short answer is that it's relatively easy to do UI and "make things
pretty" with MacOS.


A longer answer is that MacOS is UNIX under the hood, and that Apple
gives a pretty severe discount for bulk purchases to educational
organizations.

If the libraries to make 3d graphics on linux were as easy as wrapping
simple scripts with audio and video triggers in Quartz Composer, it'd
probably be more popular for displays and interactive purposes.

Related: Why Linux Sucks (less than before) 2011.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ukd-Am2bbDo

-jb


From khogoboom at gmail.com  Thu May 26 19:01:11 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 19:01:11 -0700
Subject: [buug] Linux Mint, Ultimate Edition
In-Reply-To: <20110526142947.GT4536@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20110526031034.GB18884@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTi=cJxJ36rXHe7FivkUchtYha4_-OQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110526142947.GT4536@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=aEidoDrV+2=oDMogm3WVBsDK7LQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting Karen Hogoboom (khogoboom at gmail.com):
>
> > Why are there iMacs at LHS?
>
> 1.  Please don't threadjack.
>

SORRRYYYYYY!!!!!


>
> 2.  After briefly wondering what left-hand side, Lowell High School,
> luminance-hue-saturation, or Latin Hypercube Sampling had to do with
> the desktop-feature-rich Linux Mint and Ultimate Edition Linux
> distributions, I sipped my morning coffee deeply and guesstimated that you
> are curious about computing equipment at the _Lawrence Hall of Science_.
> I say this pro bono publico, in case others are as non-plussed by the
> non-sequitur question as I was.
>
>
Ah, you're not paid to answer questions.  Now I know that.


> 3.  Why is a raven like a writing desk?
>

So a female bird can be mightier than the sword on it?

K

>
> --
> Cheers,       "Please proofread your feature titles. We don't need more
> letters
> Rick Moen     from people reminding us that Mothra's Day isn't until
> August."
> rick at linuxmafia.com                                       -- Fake AP
> Stylebook
> McQ!  (4x80)
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Thu May 26 19:10:53 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 19:10:53 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
Message-ID: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>

I was attracted to this group because I was tired of fighting Microsoft DOS
this year, this version for the last 25 years.

I tried to install FreeBSD, but kept running into walls of stupid stuff and
it wasn't because I had never worked on a unix-like operating system before

I then attended a few Linux user group meetings.  Interesting, however,
similar stupid stuff.

If I wanted a Windows-like desktop, I would not have tried to find a
distribution of Linux that wasn't full of stupid stuff.

Having been born in Berkeley, educated in Berkeley and back to living in
Berkeley for the last 5 years, I have another why question.

You are not required to answer if you're not paid to answer questions.

WHY ARE WE STILL SCREWING AROUND WITH BROKEN MIT STUFF???????????!!!!!

Karen

-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363.

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From itz at buug.org  Thu May 26 19:21:11 2011
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 19:21:11 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110526192111.09cd6b23@foolinux.dyndns.org>

On Thu, 26 May 2011 19:10:53 -0700
Karen Hogoboom <khogoboom at gmail.com> wrote:

Karen> why are we still screwing around with broken MIT stuff ?!

[caps and extra punctuation removed, sorry]

Do you mean X-Window?  Well, take a look at the size of the source tree.
It is just too much for a bunch of volunteers to handle.  To replace it
will take a company (or a group of companies) willing to finance the
project, while keeping it FOSS.  Plus of course everything depends on
the API, so on some level at least it will have to be compatible.

If you mean something else, please specify.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu May 26 19:21:56 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 19:21:56 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Karen Hogoboom (khogoboom at gmail.com):

> I then attended a few Linux user group meetings.  Interesting, however,
> similar stupid stuff.

Try:  
CRUX
Arch
Slackware

Start at http://distrowatch.com/ to find information.

Stupidity's where you find it, but the above are generally considered to
be tailored particularly for experienced Unix folk, and have far less
cruft and greater structural elegance (in the view of many) than
average.

If by 'broken MIT stuff' you mean implementations of X11, there really
aren't any generally accepted alternatives.  The only other major pieces
of MIT software I can think of that are in commodity Linux distributions
are (the leading implementation of) Kerberos and (arguably) emacs.



From itz at buug.org  Thu May 26 19:42:21 2011
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 19:42:21 -0700
Subject: [buug] Stupid distributions
In-Reply-To: <20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20110526194221.1b77a9ce@foolinux.dyndns.org>

On Thu, 26 May 2011 19:21:56 -0700
Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

Rick> Stupidity's where you find it, but the above are generally
Rick> considered to be tailored particularly for experienced Unix folk,
Rick> and have far less cruft and greater structural elegance (in the
Rick> view of many) than average.

You just have to run Debian installer in expert mode to get all that is
"good" and none that is "stupid" in that fine distribution.  Of course,
you know that ;-)  I just thought I'd point it out for the OP.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Fri May 27 01:38:05 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 01:38:05 -0700
Subject: [buug] Stupid distributions
In-Reply-To: <20110526194221.1b77a9ce@foolinux.dyndns.org>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
	<20110526194221.1b77a9ce@foolinux.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20110527083805.GG9466@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Ian Zimmerman (itz at buug.org):

> You just have to run Debian installer in expert mode to get all that is
> "good" and none that is "stupid" in that fine distribution.  Of course,
> you know that ;-)  I just thought I'd point it out for the OP.

The problem I had was that Karen hasn't yet elaborated on what she
has found to be 'stupid stuff' in Linux distributions of her
acquaintance, so I was left to speculate as best I could.  So, I
thought, which distributions lead the field for internal architectural
elegance and leanness -- lack of baroque infrastructure?  Slackware,
CRUX, and Arch seemed like the standard-bearers.  

I am lastingly fond of Debian-family distributions' internal
architecture, and describe (in part) the process I recently used to
build a cutting-edge yet sparse Debian workstation here:
http://linuxmafia.com/pipermail/conspire/2011-May/006209.html
Yet, I am obliged to admit that Debian-family distributions have more
internal structure (and some outright odd Debianisms) than is strictly
necessary, and that Slackware feels starkly functional by comparison.



From pi at berkeley.edu  Fri May 27 15:00:57 2011
From: pi at berkeley.edu (Paul Ivanov)
Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 15:00:57 -0700
Subject: [buug] Ian' circle packing interview question
Message-ID: <20110527220057.GF1115@ykcyc>

Several BUUG meetings ago, Ian proposed an interesting
interview-type question that had all of us reaching for the
change in our pockets to fuss around with possible solutions.

The basic premise, as I remember it, so hopefully Ian or others
can chime in with corrections, is as follows:

Given a circular table, come up with a strategy for placing
same-sized coins which should fit completely on the table, with
the objective that, as you and your opponent alternate in putting
coins down, you will place the *last* coin and your opponent
will not be able to place a coin anywhere else.

Here's a link to a related page that someone in my lab just
sent out, with the instructions: "If you think you're having a
bad day, just google 'circles in circles', and you'll feel a lot
better about yourself."

http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/cirincir/
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html

enjoy,
-- 
Paul Ivanov
http://pirsquared.org | GPG/PGP key id: 0x0F3E28F7
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Sat May 28 14:50:10 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 14:50:10 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
In-Reply-To: <20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTiky7qxMJawL9O66TtATMOAxDsf=YA@mail.gmail.com>

My understanding is that UNIX was created by Bell Labs, and that was on the
east coast where MIT is alive and well and living near New York.  Can
everything built on a foundation live when the things that are built on that
foundation killed that foundation?

Karen

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

>  Try:
> CRUX
> Arch
> Slackware
>
> Start at http://distrowatch.com/ to find information.
>
> Stupidity's where you find it, but the above are generally considered to
> be tailored particularly for experienced Unix folk, and have far less
> cruft and greater structural elegance (in the view of many) than
> average.
>
> If by 'broken MIT stuff' you mean implementations of X11, there really
> aren't any generally accepted alternatives.  The only other major pieces
> of MIT software I can think of that are in commodity Linux distributions
> are (the leading implementation of) Kerberos and (arguably) emacs.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Sat May 28 14:57:30 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 14:57:30 -0700
Subject: [buug] Ian' circle packing interview question
In-Reply-To: <20110527220057.GF1115@ykcyc>
References: <20110527220057.GF1115@ykcyc>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimbNV0bfk1hDRaGfLCNPiWsowCM9g@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know mathematics.  I was female and from a poor family.  I got a
very bad mathematics education.  All I know is a few computer languages and
logic.  What is the practical application of using my time to try to figure
out the answer to this question?


> the objective that, as you and your opponent alternate in putting
> coins down, you will place the *last* coin and your opponent
> will not be able to place a coin anywhere else.
>
> Here's a link to a related page that someone in my lab just
> sent out, with the instructions: "If you think you're having a
> bad day, just google 'circles in circles', and you'll feel a lot
> better about yourself."
>
> http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/cirincir/
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html
>
> enjoy,
> --
> Paul Ivanov
> http://pirsquared.org | GPG/PGP key id: 0x0F3E28F7
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAk3gHxMACgkQe+cmRQ8+KPeHGwCgklCFtUw9kcac267dPjhu8Ygv
> TWIAn3AEM5QcE45wj/5yLhrg95utOax6
> =dEZJ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>
>


-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sat May 28 15:36:47 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 15:36:47 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTiky7qxMJawL9O66TtATMOAxDsf=YA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTiky7qxMJawL9O66TtATMOAxDsf=YA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110528223647.GH18884@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Karen Hogoboom (khogoboom at gmail.com):

> My understanding is that UNIX was created by Bell Labs...

Fortunately, it escaped and went rogue.

> ...and that was on the east coast where MIT is alive and well and
> living near New York.

Nu, if you call that living.

> Can everything built on a foundation live when the things that are
> built on that foundation killed that foundation?

http://knowyourmeme.com/i/681/original/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.thumbnail.jpg

-- 
Cheers,        "You're not cleared for that information, Friend Citizen. 
Rick Moen      (Remember:  Rumours are treason, and make the Computer UnHappy."
rick at linuxmafia.com                                       -- Paranoia
McQ!  (4x80)


From togo at of.net  Sat May 28 21:42:48 2011
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 21:42:48 -0700
Subject: [buug] Ian' circle packing interview question
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimbNV0bfk1hDRaGfLCNPiWsowCM9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110527220057.GF1115@ykcyc>
	<BANLkTimbNV0bfk1hDRaGfLCNPiWsowCM9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTingsR9f3nKRPCZGxZj+oqSSWjw=kw@mail.gmail.com>

If you are not interested in mathematical puzzles, you
can just ignore it.  It wasn't directed at you.

On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Karen Hogoboom <khogoboom at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know mathematics.? I was female and from a poor family.? I got a
> very bad mathematics education.? All I know is a few computer languages and
> logic.? What is the practical application of using my time to try to figure
> out the answer to this question?
>
>>
>> the objective that, as you and your opponent alternate in putting
>> coins down, you will place the *last* coin and your opponent
>> will not be able to place a coin anywhere else.
>>
>> Here's a link to a related page that someone in my lab just
>> sent out, with the instructions: "If you think you're having a
>> bad day, just google 'circles in circles', and you'll feel a lot
>> better about yourself."
>>
>> http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/cirincir/
>> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html
>>
>> enjoy,
>> --
>> Paul Ivanov
>> http://pirsquared.org | GPG/PGP key id: 0x0F3E28F7
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
>>
>> iEYEARECAAYFAk3gHxMACgkQe+cmRQ8+KPeHGwCgklCFtUw9kcac267dPjhu8Ygv
>> TWIAn3AEM5QcE45wj/5yLhrg95utOax6
>> =dEZJ
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Buug mailing list
>> Buug at weak.org
>> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Karen Lee Hogoboom
> Computer Programmer
> Phone:? (510)?666-8298
> Mobile:? (510) 407-4363
>
> khogoboom at gmail.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>
>



-- 
Best Regards.
This is unedited.
P-)


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Sat May 28 21:48:20 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 21:48:20 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1105281907090.4307@dns.mauthesis.com>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTiky7qxMJawL9O66TtATMOAxDsf=YA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110528223647.GH18884@linuxmafia.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.1105281907090.4307@dns.mauthesis.com>
Message-ID: <20110529044820.GI18884@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting jaimef at mauthesis.com (jaimef at mauthesis.com):

> Berkeley had one distribution and it was not Linux...

Preach it, brother!  Tell those Finns to stuff it in their saunas.

-- 
Cheers,        "You're not cleared for that information, Friend Citizen. 
Rick Moen      (Remember:  Rumours are treason, and make the Computer UnHappy."
rick at linuxmafia.com                                       -- Paranoia
McQ!  (4x80)


From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Sat May 28 22:08:06 2011
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:08:06 -0700
Subject: [buug] Time: leap seconds, etc. (& Unix/BSD/Linux/...)
Message-ID: <20110528220806.14097iz4h3dzdlgc@webmail.rawbw.com>

Good rather detailed, yet quite readable article on leap seconds:
http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1967009
It also touches a bit on Unix, etc. related stuff, and
other related time and leap second technology bits.
(I don't 100% agree with the author's perspective, yet
the article quite well covers many relevant points of view).

And for bits on Unix etc. and Daylight Saving Time, and timezones,
one may wish to review (if one's not seen it):
http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug/2007-November/002980.html



From itz at buug.org  Sat May 28 23:21:16 2011
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 23:21:16 -0700
Subject: [buug] Ian' circle packing interview question
In-Reply-To: <20110527220057.GF1115@ykcyc>
References: <20110527220057.GF1115@ykcyc>
Message-ID: <20110528232116.4e1df795@foolinux.dyndns.org>

On Fri, 27 May 2011 15:00:57 -0700
Paul Ivanov <pi at berkeley.edu> wrote:

Paul> Given a circular table, come up with a strategy for placing
Paul> same-sized coins which should fit completely on the table, with
Paul> the objective that, as you and your opponent alternate in putting
Paul> coins down, you will place the *last* coin and your opponent will
Paul> not be able to place a coin anywhere else.

That is correct.  It turns out to work for a square table as well, or
a hexagonal one, or even an elliptical one.  But not an arbitrary table.

> http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/cirincir/
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html

You need _way_ less mathematics for this problem.  Just mathematical
induction, really.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD 
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.


From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Sat May 28 23:26:58 2011
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 23:26:58 -0700
Subject: [buug] Fun (and practical) uses of named pipes (example)
Message-ID: <20110528232658.39492laftznfuvqc@webmail.rawbw.com>

So, not too long ago, had bit of a task I wanted to accomplish.  I had
two quite large compressed (gzip and bzip2) files of a rather larger
hard drive image (120,031,511,040 bytes).  Due to size, time, etc., I
wanted my manipulations of these files to be fairly I/O and time
efficient.  E.g. I didn't want to read a source file or write a target
file more than once, or unnecessarily read a target file.  I wanted to
perform various hash calculations (md5, sha1, sha256 and sha512) on the
uncompressed data from each of the compressed images, and also extract
and save as files, the uncompressed images, and also compare them, and
do a bit of custom block-wise and running total hash calculations on the
uncompressed images (the multisum.128M program I reference below is bit
of perl code I wrote to do that - it simultaneously does both block-by-block
and running cumulative (up through block) hash calculations - in this
case by 128 MiB blocks (if the files differed, I wanted to know within
which 128 MiB blocks they differed)).  I also wanted to know if the two
uncompressed files were byte-by-byte identical all the way through
(regardless as to whether or not the various hash calculations may have
also matched).

So, ... to do all that rather efficiently, I used a bunch of named
pipes.  The only processes that read from the compressed files were
their uncompressing programs, and a single program wrote the
uncompressed images - nothing else read those images.  All the other I/O
- reading, writing (for comparison and calculating all the various hash
functions) read from, or wrote to a named pipe.  tee(1) was also
significantly used to simultaneous write to multiple outputs (stdout
and/or various "files" - mostly named pipes in our case here).

What's a named pipe?  A First In First Out (FIFO) file.  One of the
types of "special" files in Unix(/Linux, etc.) - but unlike block or
character special devices, no special privilege is needed to create
named pipes.  Named pipes are sort of like the shell's pipe (|), except
they exist in the filesystem (and thus have a name), and are read from
and written to, rather like ordinary files ... except they're not.  They
have no disk data blocks - they're just a buffer - one generally has one
process read from a named pipe, and another process write the named
pipe.  The data "comes out from" (is read from) the pipe, with the bytes
coming out in the same order they were written to the pipe.  mknod(1) is
used to create named pipe, e.g.:
$ mknod name p
would generally create a named pipe of name name, e.g.:
$ mknod name p && ls -ond name && rm name
prw-------  1 1003 0 May 28 23:14 name
$
That leading p in our ls -o (or -l) listing shows us that it's a named
pipe.

One generally needs to set something up to read from named pipe, before
writing to named pipe.

Anyway, bit of example program I did a while back for the task at hand.
I've tweaked it slightly (for readability - namely shortening some
names/paths and folding some lines), and added some comments to describe
a bit better what it does.

#!/bin/sh

set -e # exit non-zero if command fails

cd /tmp/hd

for f in gz bz2
do
     # create pair of files for each of our gz / bz2 flavors we'll use
     mknod p-"$f" p
     mknod p-multisum.128M-"$f" p
     # launch our custom multisum.128M on each, saving stdout and stderr
     ./multisum.128M p-multisum.128M-"$f" \
     > P-multisum.128M-"$f".out \
     2> P-multisum.128M-"$f".err &
done

# launch our cmp, and have it report results to file CMP, and save
# stdout and stderr
if >cmp.out 2>cmp.err cmp p-gz p-bz2; then
     echo matched > CMP
else
     echo not matched > CMP
fi &

for s in md5 sha1 sha256 sha512
do
     for f in gz bz2
     do
         # make named pipes for each of our hash and file type
         # combinations
         mknod p-"$s"-"$f" p
         # start the hash calculations on each, saving stdout
         "$s"sum < p-"$s"-"$f" > P-"$s"sum-"$f" &
     done
done

# start our uncompressions, pipe to tee to write our pipes and file for
# each
gzip -d < /tmp/sdb1/hd.gz | tee p*-gz > hd-gz &
bzip2 -d < /tmp/sdb2/hd.bz2 | tee p*-bz2 > hd-bz2 &

# essentially all the preceding read/write stuff was started in
# background, with reads started before writes

# we just then wait for the preceding background stuff to all finish,
# at which point we should be done
wait

I'll commonly use similar technique when I wish to calculate mutliple
hash values on a CD or DVD or image thereof.  E.g. I'll create named
pipe file(s), start background process(es) to calculate hash(es) on the
named pipe(s), redirecting their output to file(s), then I'll read the
CD/DVD/image, and typically via tee(1), write it to the named pipes -
and typically also pipe (|) tee(1)'s stdout to one of the hash programs
I wish to use.  In that way, I read the input CD/DVD/image just once,
rather than rereading and doing that I/O on the media or disk repeatedly
for each hash type I wish to calculate.



From khogoboom at gmail.com  Sun May 29 07:27:27 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 07:27:27 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
In-Reply-To: <20110526192111.09cd6b23@foolinux.dyndns.org>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110526192111.09cd6b23@foolinux.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=YBcQgbA+b6QupGNQJ5FKEsp5RuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ian,

No, I was not referring to the X Window System.  The following supports what
I originally thought when I started attending BUUG.  I.e., that Xerox Parc
was behind the commercial research and development of computer windowing
systems as viewed on the computer monitor.  I didn't know about the earlier
research that the Wiki page mentions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_graphical_user_interface

I disagree with Richard Stallman's position that all software should be
free.  I am an American citizen and largely athiest also.  I think people
should get credit for their accomplishments, and paid for their work.  I am
a capitalist, not a communist.  I especially don't think that women should
support men's work without getting paid for it.

I think that people who think that Communism is a superior economic system
to Captalism should go to a Communist country where they won't be surrounded
by people they have to put down and criticize all the time.

Karen

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 26 May 2011 19:10:53 -0700
> Karen Hogoboom <khogoboom at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Karen> why are we still screwing around with broken MIT stuff ?!
>
> [caps and extra punctuation removed, sorry]
>
> Do you mean X-Window?  Well, take a look at the size of the source tree.
> It is just too much for a bunch of volunteers to handle.  To replace it
> will take a company (or a group of companies) willing to finance the
> project, while keeping it FOSS.  Plus of course everything depends on
> the API, so on some level at least it will have to be compatible.
>
> If you mean something else, please specify.
>
> --
> Ian Zimmerman
> gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD
> fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
> Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Sun May 29 07:35:38 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 07:35:38 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
In-Reply-To: <20110528223647.GH18884@linuxmafia.com>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTiky7qxMJawL9O66TtATMOAxDsf=YA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110528223647.GH18884@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTinRKSyaNpOz3sG2NNFrhnwiWx8b4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting Karen Hogoboom (khogoboom at gmail.com):
>
> > ...and that was on the east coast where MIT is alive and well and
> > living near New York.
>
> Nu, if you call that living.
>
>
I didn't follow your reference to Nu.  Maybe it's an inside joke.  Or maybe
you were drinking coffee and mentally went somewhere that I don't follow.


> > Can everything built on a foundation live when the things that are
> > built on that foundation killed that foundation?
>
>
> http://knowyourmeme.com/i/681/original/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.thumbnail.jpg
>

Funny, but again, I don't follow how that answers that question.  On the
other hand, you are not required to answer my questions since, as you
asserted, you are not paid to answer them.

>
> --
> Cheers,        "You're not cleared for that information, Friend Citizen.
> Rick Moen      (Remember:  Rumours are treason, and make the Computer
> UnHappy."
> rick at linuxmafia.com                                       -- Paranoia
> McQ!  (4x80)
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Sun May 29 07:39:36 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 07:39:36 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
In-Reply-To: <20110529044820.GI18884@linuxmafia.com>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTiky7qxMJawL9O66TtATMOAxDsf=YA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110528223647.GH18884@linuxmafia.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.1105281907090.4307@dns.mauthesis.com>
	<20110529044820.GI18884@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=-6gQWrM8yBPpaJco6WVX==QwGtw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rick,

You quoted something that I didn't see posted on the buug list.  I will now
assume that cross-posting is o.k.

Karen

On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 9:48 PM, Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting jaimef at mauthesis.com (jaimef at mauthesis.com):
>
> > Berkeley had one distribution and it was not Linux...
>
> Preach it, brother!  Tell those Finns to stuff it in their saunas.
>
> --
> Cheers,        "You're not cleared for that information, Friend Citizen.
> Rick Moen      (Remember:  Rumours are treason, and make the Computer
> UnHappy."
> rick at linuxmafia.com                                       -- Paranoia
> McQ!  (4x80)
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Sun May 29 08:01:38 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 08:01:38 -0700
Subject: [buug] Time: leap seconds, etc. (& Unix/BSD/Linux/...)
In-Reply-To: <20110528220806.14097iz4h3dzdlgc@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <20110528220806.14097iz4h3dzdlgc@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimoocPMO3XMnhfzPdgJGyKEBy=zvA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Michael,

Thank you.  I had enough time to read up to the part where I disagreed with
him, then decided I wanted to spend my time looking for a paying job more.
It was well written though, I and I would commend the author on that, but I
didn't want to get dragged into having to follow the whole discussion
without getting paid for it.

My other thought was that I don't have the money to join the ACM right now,
or rather, that I choose to spend my money only on the necessities until I
find employment where I can get paid for doing good, meaningful work for
good.  Once I get paid, other people might get paid.  As I am not currently
paid, I am not paying taxes, so my money is not actually making money for
anyone, nor supporting anyone in the government who might be actually
protecting my country.

I could help with this problem, but I am getting talked at rather than
listened to most of the time when I try to establish my credentials as a
technical woman who wants to get paid for her work.  I am not inclined to
work with people who don't listen to me as a technical woman, or who
interrupt me while I am talking.

I keep getting driven to conclude that people, especially men, don't want to
pay a technical woman for technical work.

I didn't read your bits yet.

Karen

On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Michael Paoli <
Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Good rather detailed, yet quite readable article on leap seconds:
> http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1967009
> It also touches a bit on Unix, etc. related stuff, and
> other related time and leap second technology bits.
> (I don't 100% agree with the author's perspective, yet
> the article quite well covers many relevant points of view).
>
> And for bits on Unix etc. and Daylight Saving Time, and timezones,
> one may wish to review (if one's not seen it):
> http://www.weak.org/pipermail/buug/2007-November/002980.htmll
>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Sun May 29 08:15:28 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 08:15:28 -0700
Subject: [buug] Ian' circle packing interview question
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTingsR9f3nKRPCZGxZj+oqSSWjw=kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110527220057.GF1115@ykcyc>
	<BANLkTimbNV0bfk1hDRaGfLCNPiWsowCM9g@mail.gmail.com>
	<BANLkTingsR9f3nKRPCZGxZj+oqSSWjw=kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=Es-Ew6f30+GVRfNHfL7ukahETeQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tony,

Thanks.  I was at the meeting where this puzzle was brought up, so I decided
to chime in.

I attended the group because I wanted to talk about computing, but instead
it seems to be a group about mathematical and physics puzzles.

I assert that I can be a technical woman who is very good at programming
without having to prove that I have superior mathematics skills to someone
who was schooled the European way.

Karen

On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 9:42 PM, Tony Godshall <togo at of.net> wrote:

> If you are not interested in mathematical puzzles, you
> can just ignore it.  It wasn't directed at you.
>
> On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Karen Hogoboom <khogoboom at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I don't know mathematics.  I was female and from a poor family.  I got a
> > very bad mathematics education.  All I know is a few computer languages
> and
> > logic.  What is the practical application of using my time to try to
> figure
> > out the answer to this question?
> >
> >>
> >> the objective that, as you and your opponent alternate in putting
> >> coins down, you will place the *last* coin and your opponent
> >> will not be able to place a coin anywhere else.
> >>
> >> Here's a link to a related page that someone in my lab just
> >> sent out, with the instructions: "If you think you're having a
> >> bad day, just google 'circles in circles', and you'll feel a lot
> >> better about yourself."
> >>
> >> http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/cirincir/
> >> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html
> >>
> >> enjoy,
> >> --
> >> Paul Ivanov
> >> http://pirsquared.org | GPG/PGP key id: 0x0F3E28F7
> >>
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
> >>
> >> iEYEARECAAYFAk3gHxMACgkQe+cmRQ8+KPeHGwCgklCFtUw9kcac267dPjhu8Ygv
> >> TWIAn3AEM5QcE45wj/5yLhrg95utOax6
> >> =dEZJ
> >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Buug mailing list
> >> Buug at weak.org
> >> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Karen Lee Hogoboom
> > Computer Programmer
> > Phone:  (510) 666-8298
> > Mobile:  (510) 407-4363
> >
> > khogoboom at gmail.com
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Buug mailing list
> > Buug at weak.org
> > http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards.
> This is unedited.
> P-)
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Sun May 29 08:16:47 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 08:16:47 -0700
Subject: [buug] Ian' circle packing interview question
In-Reply-To: <20110528232116.4e1df795@foolinux.dyndns.org>
References: <20110527220057.GF1115@ykcyc>
	<20110528232116.4e1df795@foolinux.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikFz=VwxmD3o=OGjvjdFgt2kBaWQg@mail.gmail.com>

I choose not to work on this problem unless you want to pay me to.

On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 11:21 PM, Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 27 May 2011 15:00:57 -0700
> Paul Ivanov <pi at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
> Paul> Given a circular table, come up with a strategy for placing
> Paul> same-sized coins which should fit completely on the table, with
> Paul> the objective that, as you and your opponent alternate in putting
> Paul> coins down, you will place the *last* coin and your opponent will
> Paul> not be able to place a coin anywhere else.
>
> That is correct.  It turns out to work for a square table as well, or
> a hexagonal one, or even an elliptical one.  But not an arbitrary table.
>
> > http://www2.stetson.edu/~efriedma/cirincir/
> > http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html
>
> You need _way_ less mathematics for this problem.  Just mathematical
> induction, really.
>
> --
> Ian Zimmerman
> gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD
> fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
> Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From khogoboom at gmail.com  Sun May 29 08:20:58 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 08:20:58 -0700
Subject: [buug] Fun (and practical) uses of named pipes (example)
In-Reply-To: <20110528232658.39492laftznfuvqc@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <20110528232658.39492laftznfuvqc@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik2+Eqc4oFe7-BeQuAzcZOdZ-5ANA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Michael,

I am wondering if the way to establish my credentials is to write something
like this.

It is interesting that you refer to Named Pipes as a unix concept.  I
thought that Microsoft had invented the name "Named Pipes" to try to adapt
to having its software work on a network of heterogenous computers.

Karen

On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 11:26 PM, Michael Paoli <
Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> So, not too long ago, had bit of a task I wanted to accomplish.  I had
> two quite large compressed (gzip and bzip2) files of a rather larger
> hard drive image (120,031,511,040 bytes).  Due to size, time, etc., I
> wanted my manipulations of these files to be fairly I/O and time
> efficient.  E.g. I didn't want to read a source file or write a target
> file more than once, or unnecessarily read a target file.  I wanted to
> perform various hash calculations (md5, sha1, sha256 and sha512) on the
> uncompressed data from each of the compressed images, and also extract
> and save as files, the uncompressed images, and also compare them, and
> do a bit of custom block-wise and running total hash calculations on the
> uncompressed images (the multisum.128M program I reference below is bit
> of perl code I wrote to do that - it simultaneously does both
> block-by-block
> and running cumulative (up through block) hash calculations - in this
> case by 128 MiB blocks (if the files differed, I wanted to know within
> which 128 MiB blocks they differed)).  I also wanted to know if the two
> uncompressed files were byte-by-byte identical all the way through
> (regardless as to whether or not the various hash calculations may have
> also matched).
>
> So, ... to do all that rather efficiently, I used a bunch of named
> pipes.  The only processes that read from the compressed files were
> their uncompressing programs, and a single program wrote the
> uncompressed images - nothing else read those images.  All the other I/O
> - reading, writing (for comparison and calculating all the various hash
> functions) read from, or wrote to a named pipe.  tee(1) was also
> significantly used to simultaneous write to multiple outputs (stdout
> and/or various "files" - mostly named pipes in our case here).
>
> What's a named pipe?  A First In First Out (FIFO) file.  One of the
> types of "special" files in Unix(/Linux, etc.) - but unlike block or
> character special devices, no special privilege is needed to create
> named pipes.  Named pipes are sort of like the shell's pipe (|), except
> they exist in the filesystem (and thus have a name), and are read from
> and written to, rather like ordinary files ... except they're not.  They
> have no disk data blocks - they're just a buffer - one generally has one
> process read from a named pipe, and another process write the named
> pipe.  The data "comes out from" (is read from) the pipe, with the bytes
> coming out in the same order they were written to the pipe.  mknod(1) is
> used to create named pipe, e.g.:
> $ mknod name p
> would generally create a named pipe of name name, e.g.:
> $ mknod name p && ls -ond name && rm name
> prw-------  1 1003 0 May 28 23:14 name
> $
> That leading p in our ls -o (or -l) listing shows us that it's a named
> pipe.
>
> One generally needs to set something up to read from named pipe, before
> writing to named pipe.
>
> Anyway, bit of example program I did a while back for the task at hand.
> I've tweaked it slightly (for readability - namely shortening some
> names/paths and folding some lines), and added some comments to describe
> a bit better what it does.
>
> #!/bin/sh
>
> set -e # exit non-zero if command fails
>
> cd /tmp/hd
>
> for f in gz bz2
> do
>    # create pair of files for each of our gz / bz2 flavors we'll use
>    mknod p-"$f" p
>    mknod p-multisum.128M-"$f" p
>    # launch our custom multisum.128M on each, saving stdout and stderr
>    ./multisum.128M p-multisum.128M-"$f" \
>    > P-multisum.128M-"$f".out \
>    2> P-multisum.128M-"$f".err &
> done
>
> # launch our cmp, and have it report results to file CMP, and save
> # stdout and stderr
> if >cmp.out 2>cmp.err cmp p-gz p-bz2; then
>    echo matched > CMP
> else
>    echo not matched > CMP
> fi &
>
> for s in md5 sha1 sha256 sha512
> do
>    for f in gz bz2
>    do
>        # make named pipes for each of our hash and file type
>        # combinations
>        mknod p-"$s"-"$f" p
>        # start the hash calculations on each, saving stdout
>        "$s"sum < p-"$s"-"$f" > P-"$s"sum-"$f" &
>    done
> done
>
> # start our uncompressions, pipe to tee to write our pipes and file for
> # each
> gzip -d < /tmp/sdb1/hd.gz | tee p*-gz > hd-gz &
> bzip2 -d < /tmp/sdb2/hd.bz2 | tee p*-bz2 > hd-bz2 &
>
> # essentially all the preceding read/write stuff was started in
> # background, with reads started before writes
>
> # we just then wait for the preceding background stuff to all finish,
> # at which point we should be done
> wait
>
> I'll commonly use similar technique when I wish to calculate mutliple
> hash values on a CD or DVD or image thereof.  E.g. I'll create named
> pipe file(s), start background process(es) to calculate hash(es) on the
> named pipe(s), redirecting their output to file(s), then I'll read the
> CD/DVD/image, and typically via tee(1), write it to the named pipes -
> and typically also pipe (|) tee(1)'s stdout to one of the hash programs
> I wish to use.  In that way, I read the input CD/DVD/image just once,
> rather than rereading and doing that I/O on the media or disk repeatedly
> for each hash type I wish to calculate.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Sun May 29 10:56:02 2011
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:56:02 -0700
Subject: [buug] named pipes (wee bit of history)
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTik2+Eqc4oFe7-BeQuAzcZOdZ-5ANA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110528232658.39492laftznfuvqc@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<BANLkTik2+Eqc4oFe7-BeQuAzcZOdZ-5ANA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110529105602.1732850jkipoh9yo@webmail.rawbw.com>

> From: "Karen Hogoboom" <khogoboom at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [buug] Fun (and practical) uses of named pipes (example)
> Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 08:20:58 -0700

> It is interesting that you refer to Named Pipes as a unix concept.  I
> thought that Microsoft had invented the name "Named Pipes" to try to adapt
> to having its software work on a network of heterogenous computers.

As far as I'm aware, Unix's use of "named pipes" quite predates
Microsoft's use of "Named Pipes" - which for Microsoft Windows came many
years later and refers to something quite different.  Microsoft,
however, quite certainly did also have named pipes in Xenix -
Microsoft's port of Unix, so, name "named pipes" was probably brought to
the attention of Microsoft from Unix, long before Microsoft called
something else quite different in Microsoft Windows "Named Pipes".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Named_pipe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipeline_(Unix)#History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix



From khogoboom at gmail.com  Sun May 29 15:30:31 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 15:30:31 -0700
Subject: [buug] named pipes (wee bit of history)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1105291410020.4307@dns.mauthesis.com>
References: <20110528232658.39492laftznfuvqc@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<BANLkTik2+Eqc4oFe7-BeQuAzcZOdZ-5ANA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110529105602.1732850jkipoh9yo@webmail.rawbw.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.1105291410020.4307@dns.mauthesis.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=hOcu6jTBKMwUZS=ftJkw9ReqLHA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Michael,

I have better things to do than spend all my time following these
references.  If you want to pay me to read those to validate your knowledge,
I would be happy to.

When I worked at Sybase, we only had to use Named Pipes with our joint
implementation of SQL Server that worked on machines running variations of
Microsoft Windows (DOS).  We didn't need any winsock stack of libraries
(DLLs) to adapt to the fact that our unix implementations already worked
over TCP/IP.

Karen

On Sun, May 29, 2011 at 11:10 AM, <jaimef at mauthesis.com> wrote:

On Sun, 29 May 2011, Michael Paoli wrote:
>
>  Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:56:02 -0700
>> From: Michael Paoli <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
>> To: Karen Hogoboom <khogoboom at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Berkeley Unix User Group <buug at weak.org>
>> Subject: Re: [buug] named pipes (wee bit of history)
>>
>>
>>  From: "Karen Hogoboom" <khogoboom at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [buug] Fun (and practical) uses of named pipes (example)
>>> Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 08:20:58 -0700
>>>
>>
>>  It is interesting that you refer to Named Pipes as a unix concept.  I
>>> thought that Microsoft had invented the name "Named Pipes" to try to
>>> adapt
>>> to having its software work on a network of heterogenous computers.
>>>
>>
>> As far as I'm aware, Unix's use of "named pipes" quite predates
>> Microsoft's use of "Named Pipes" - which for Microsoft Windows came many
>> years later and refers to something quite different.  Microsoft,
>> however, quite certainly did also have named pipes in Xenix -
>> Microsoft's port of Unix, so, name "named pipes" was probably brought to
>> the attention of Microsoft from Unix, long before Microsoft called
>> something else quite different in Microsoft Windows "Named Pipes".
>>
> And we took sendfile from them :P
>
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Named_pipe
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipeline_(Unix)#History
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Buug mailing list
>> Buug at weak.org
>> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>>
>


-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue May 31 13:51:15 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 13:51:15 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=-6gQWrM8yBPpaJco6WVX==QwGtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTiky7qxMJawL9O66TtATMOAxDsf=YA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110528223647.GH18884@linuxmafia.com>
	<Pine.NEB.4.64.1105281907090.4307@dns.mauthesis.com>
	<20110529044820.GI18884@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTi=-6gQWrM8yBPpaJco6WVX==QwGtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110531205115.GN18884@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Karen Hogoboom (khogoboom at gmail.com):

> Hi Rick,
> 
> You quoted something that I didn't see posted on the buug list.

The posting to which I repied was on-list.  I did not retain a copy.

> I will now assume that cross-posting is o.k.

Your statement appears to be non-sequitur.

-- 
Cheers,        "You're not cleared for that information, Friend Citizen. 
Rick Moen      (Remember:  Rumors are treason, and make the Computer UnHappy.")
rick at linuxmafia.com                                       -- Paranoia
McQ!  (4x80)


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue May 31 14:09:12 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 14:09:12 -0700
Subject: [buug] Berkeley Unix User's Group
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTinRKSyaNpOz3sG2NNFrhnwiWx8b4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTinC8GgaZcYq8CUagjjjQFcr4qpDjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110527022156.GA9466@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTiky7qxMJawL9O66TtATMOAxDsf=YA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20110528223647.GH18884@linuxmafia.com>
	<BANLkTinRKSyaNpOz3sG2NNFrhnwiWx8b4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110531210912.GP29974@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Karen Hogoboom (khogoboom at gmail.com):

> I didn't follow your reference to Nu.  Maybe it's an inside joke.  Or maybe
> you were drinking coffee and mentally went somewhere that I don't follow.

Like all good Scandinavian-Americans, I have a smattering of Yiddish in
my vocabulary.  As to what 'nu', means -- nu, that depends on context and
tone.  Leo Rosten (in _The Joy of Yiddish_) cited 19 specific meanings.

> > http://knowyourmeme.com/i/681/original/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.thumbnail.jpg
> 
> Funny, but again, I don't follow how that answers that question.

Nu, I didn't take the question very seriously.

-- 
Cheers,            "Conjoined sentences have two or more clauses.  Once popular
Rick Moen          sideshow attractions, modern surgery has made them rare."
rick at linuxmafia.com                                       -- Fake AP Stylebook
McQ!  (4x80)


From clfest at clfest.org  Tue May 31 16:27:42 2011
From: clfest at clfest.org (Henricus J. Holtman)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 16:27:42 -0700
Subject: [buug] atx?
Message-ID: <4DE5796E.40809@clfest.org>

Anybody got a spare atx power supply that they can spare for
a few days?  I'm trying to isolate a problem with my computer.
I think it doesn't have to be out of the case.  My (possibly bad)
one is rated 250W.  I go to buug meetings regularly.

-- 
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.
It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

                                               Mark Twain



From khogoboom at gmail.com  Tue May 31 16:51:28 2011
From: khogoboom at gmail.com (Karen Hogoboom)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 16:51:28 -0700
Subject: [buug] atx?
In-Reply-To: <4DE5796E.40809@clfest.org>
References: <4DE5796E.40809@clfest.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimNCjKJk3pibJOxpkNtCOpXVuQ9ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, no I don't.  Maybe we should change to a new location where there's
more room for people to exchange devices.

On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 4:27 PM, Henricus J. Holtman <clfest at clfest.org>wrote:

> Anybody got a spare atx power supply that they can spare for
> a few days?  I'm trying to isolate a problem with my computer.
> I think it doesn't have to be out of the case.  My (possibly bad)
> one is rated 250W.  I go to buug meetings regularly.
>
> --
> It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.
> It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
>
>                                              Mark Twain
>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Karen Lee Hogoboom
Computer Programmer
Phone:  (510) 666-8298
Mobile:  (510) 407-4363

khogoboom at gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karenlhogoboom
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From togo at of.net  Tue May 31 17:00:08 2011
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 17:00:08 -0700
Subject: [buug] atx?
In-Reply-To: <4DE5796E.40809@clfest.org>
References: <4DE5796E.40809@clfest.org>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=L-n2xEmipo9G6zKHA06csg+870Q@mail.gmail.com>

I do but I won't be at a buug meeting.  I'm in SF on the 1-California
electric bus line.  I could leave it behind a pot.

On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 4:27 PM, Henricus J. Holtman <clfest at clfest.org> wrote:
> Anybody got a spare atx power supply that they can spare for
> a few days? ?I'm trying to isolate a problem with my computer.
> I think it doesn't have to be out of the case. ?My (possibly bad)
> one is rated 250W. ?I go to buug meetings regularly.
>
> --
> It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble.
> It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Mark Twain
>
> _______________________________________________
> Buug mailing list
> Buug at weak.org
> http://www.weak.org/mailman/listinfo/buug
>



-- 
Best Regards.
This is unedited.
P-)


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Tue May 31 17:08:37 2011
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 17:08:37 -0700
Subject: [buug] atx?
In-Reply-To: <4DE5796E.40809@clfest.org>
References: <4DE5796E.40809@clfest.org>
Message-ID: <20110601000837.GE6670@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Henricus J. Holtman (clfest at clfest.org):

> Anybody got a spare atx power supply that they can spare for
> a few days?  I'm trying to isolate a problem with my computer.
> I think it doesn't have to be out of the case.  My (possibly bad)
> one is rated 250W.  I go to buug meetings regularly.

Funny coincidence:  My spare ATX power supply was burned out by someone
(not you) who was trying to isolate a problem with his computer.  True
story!

We inferred from the particular pattern of destruction that that must be
a particularly horrific short-circuit on that motherboard.  It only cost
two ATX power supplies to confirm that (including mine).