From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Wed Jan  2 02:39:01 2013
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 02:39:01 -0800
Subject: [buug] [n]vi "vs." vim; terminfo, etc.
Message-ID: <20130102023901.43302jn4i4a0z8mc@webmail.rawbw.com>

> I have been wondering about your complaint about vim, that it is
> subtly incompatible with vi, and in a dumbed down way.
>
> One thing I like about vim is that it tells you when it is in insert
> mode. I never mastered the trick of keeping track in my head. I also
> don't like nvi's flashing of the entire screen when you getto a
> limits of the file with the cursor movement keys.

I don't think I'd (quite) call vim(1) and its "compatible mode" "dumbed
down", so much as I'd more likely generally call vim (stupidly) arrogant and
presumptive.  Or, more precisely, as I said before[1]:
"vim should never have the arrogance to presume it's smarter than those
using it or knows better what they want than they do"
E.g. it acts like it thinks and tries to be a lot smarter
than me, when it is very obviously not.  And it trying to show off its
"smarts", it mostly just causes more problems.

And yes, I know of vim's "compatible" mode - it's *not* very compatible,
E.g. see also [1] for typical examples.

"tells you when it is in insert mode" - that can also be done with [n]vi:
:se showmode
(or of course in .exrc file, or for non-ancient vi via EXINIT)
I typically have it set.  Without it, the algorithm for determining mode
is quite simple - just hit escape until [n]vi alerts one via the
terminal (audible) bell or "visual bell" (screen flash).  That's
[n]vi's way signaling a minor error, in this case "Hey, I'm *already* in
command mode!"  One is then in command mode.  If that's not the mode
one wants to be in, then go into insert/append/replace/etc. mode as
desired by using the appropriate command.  Exception would be : prompt
in ex mode.  If the Escapes just echo back as ^[ or appear to do
nothing, if one types some text (e.g. sequence of "a" characters) and
they echo back, one is likely in insert, append, or similar mode in ex.
Just hit <RETURN>, then . on a line by itself, then <RETURN> again, and
that should then give one a : prompt.  To that, enter vi followed by
<RETURN> and that should get one to vi command mode - unless the
terminal (or specification thereof) is missing or insufficient to
support visual mode, in which case one will generally remain in ex mode.

The flashing of the entire screen is not specifically [n]vi or even vim
behavior, but more a matter of the terminal (or emulation thereof)'s
capabilities and (typically) TERMINFO capabilities entry.  Many
terminals(/emulations) have a (mis?)feature capability to flash the
screen, as a (silent) visual alert.  This is, arguably, often considered
a better or preferred means of alerting than an audible terminal bell.
Terminals/emulations having such a capability generally have it
described in their TERMINFO (or TERMCAP) entry.  Likewise they'll also
indicate their audible bell capability if they have such (almost all
do).  Many programs, including vi, nvi, vim, and many others, if they
find the terminal's capabilities to include flash_screen/flash/vb
("visual bell"), they'll use that in preference over bell/bel/bl,
otherwise they'll use bell/bel/bl.  So, if one doesn't like that
terminal screen flash, the place to address that isn't within
vi/nvi/vim, but rather with (typically) the TERMINFO entry.
One can create a TERMINFO entry, and suitably set TERMINFO and TERM, to
use a capability description that doesn't include the
flash_screen/flash/vb capability.  One can then use those environment
settings for vi/nvi/vim, or any and/or all programs, as may be preferred
regarding that behavior.  With, e.g. TERMINFO, if such a suitable
terminal variant doesn't already exist, creating one is relatively easy,
as the capability entries can also be written about as simply as this:
terminal is just like that other one except it doesn't have
such-and-such capability.  E.g. (I show my comments on lines starting
with //):
// confirm we have the TERMCAP flash capability for xterm
// use of vi(1) also appears to confirm it uses it
$ (unset TERMINFO; TERM=xterm infocmp -1I) | fgrep flash
         flash=\E[?5h$<100/>\E[?5l,
// do we already have something that looks like a suitable variant?
$ echo $(find /lib/terminfo /usr/share/terminfo -name 'xterm*' -print  
| sed -e 's/^.*\/xterm//' | sort -u)
+256color +88color +app +app+pc +decedit +edit +noapp +noapp+pc  
+pc+edit +pcc0 +pcc1 +pcc2 +pcc3 +pce0 +pce1 +pce2 +pce3 +pcf0 +pcf1  
+pcf2 +pcf3 +pcfN +pcfkeys +pcfn +r6f2 +sl +sl-twm +vt+edit -1002  
-1003 -16color -24 -256color -65 -88color -8bit -basic -bold -boldso  
-color -debian -hp -ic -mono -new -nic -noapp -nrc -old -pcolor -r5  
-r6 -rep -sco -sun -vi -vt220 -vt52 -xf86-v32 -xf86-v33 -xf86-v333  
-xf86-v40 -xf86-v43 -xf86-v44 -xfree86 -xi -xmc 1 c m s s-sun
// for sake of exercise, we'll presume none of those are what we want
// where is the xterm TERMINFO entry?
$ find /lib/terminfo /usr/share/terminfo -name 'xterm' -print
/lib/terminfo/x/xterm
// save and set umask
$ saved_umask=$(umask); umask 022
// make directories and symbolic link
$ cd && mkdir .terminfo .terminfo/x && cd .terminfo
$ ln -s /lib/terminfo/x/xterm x/xterm
// what does existing name and long name look like?
$ (unset TERMINFO; TERM=xterm infocmp -1I) | grep '^xterm|'
xterm|X11 terminal emulator,
// create our source file
$ ed xterm-nvb.src
xterm-nvb.src: No such file or directory
0a
xterm-nvb|X11 terminal emulator no visual bell,
         flash@,
         use=xterm,
.
w
83
q
// compile our new TERMINFO entry
$ TERMINFO="$HOME"/.terminfo tic xterm-nvb.src
$ umask "$saved_umask"; unset "$saved_umask"
// and now we try out our new entry - vi now uses the audible bell, as
// it no longer sees a visual bell capability.
$ TERMINFO="$HOME"/.terminfo TERM=xterm-nvb vi
// TERM=linux-m is very handy for getting vim to NOT use any colors,
// also usefully appropriate for monochrome video card or monitor.
// Checking a bit further - are there xterm variants that already don't
// include the flash capability?
$ echo $(unset TERMINFO; for TERM in $(find /lib/terminfo  
/usr/share/terminfo -name 'xterm*' -print | sed -e 's/^.*\///' | sort  
-u); do TERM="$TERM" infocmp -1I | >>/dev/null 2>&1 fgrep flash= ||  
echo "$TERM"; done)
xterm+256color xterm+88color xterm+app xterm+app+pc xterm+decedit  
xterm+edit xterm+noapp xterm+noapp+pc xterm+pc+edit xterm+pcc0  
xterm+pcc1 xterm+pcc2 xterm+pcc3 xterm+pce0 xterm+pce1 xterm+pce2  
xterm+pce3 xterm+pcf0 xterm+pcf1 xterm+pcf2 xterm+pcf3 xterm+pcfN  
xterm+pcfkeys xterm+pcfn xterm+r6f2 xterm+vt+edit xterm-24 xterm-65  
xterm-bold xterm-boldso xterm-color xterm-mono xterm-old xterm-r5  
xterm-r6 xterm-vt52 xtermc xtermm xterms
// Yes, quite a number of them, actually.
// I'll leave as an exercise to determine if any of those are already
// fully suitable, and by exactly what capabilities they differer from
// xterm

references/excerpts/footnotes:

1. http://buug.org/pipermail/buug/2011-April/003724.html
vi(1)
ex(1)
nvi(1)
vim(1)
terminfo(5)
infocmp(1)
tic(1)
ed(1)
sh(1)
find(1)
ln(1)
mkdir(1)
fgrep(1)
sort(1)

terminfo(5)                  File Formats                  terminfo(5)
        Terminal  names  (except for the last, verbose entry) should be
        chosen using the following conventions.  The  particular  piece
        of  hardware  making  up  the terminal should have a root name,
        thus ``hp2621''.  This name should not contain hyphens.   Modes
        that  the  hardware  can  be in, or user preferences, should be
        indicated by appending a hyphen and a  mode  suffix.   Thus,  a
        vt100  in 132 column mode would be vt100-w.  The following suf-
        fixes should be used where possible:
         Suffix                  Meaning                   Example
         -nn      Number of lines on the screen            aaa-60
         -np      Number of pages of memory                c100-4p
         -am      With automargins (usually the default)   vt100-am
         -m       Mono mode; suppress color                ansi-m
         -mc      Magic cookie; spaces when highlighting   wy30-mc
         -na      No arrow keys (leave them in local)      c100-na
         -nam     Without automatic margins                vt100-nam
         -nl      No status line                           att4415-nl
         -ns      No status line                           hp2626-ns
         -rv      Reverse video                            c100-rv
         -s       Enable status line                       vt100-s
         -vb      Use visible bell instead of beep         wy370-vb
         -w       Wide mode (> 80 columns, usually 132)    vt100-w
        For more on terminal naming conventions, see the term(7) manual
        page.
        These are the string capabilities:
                Variable            Cap-    TCap       Description
                 String             name    Code
        bell                        bel     bl     audible signal
                                                   (bell) (P)
        flash_screen                flash   vb     visible bell (may
                                                   not move cursor)
    Similar Terminals
        If  there are two very similar terminals, one (the variant) can
        be defined as being just like the other (the base) with certain
        exceptions.  In the definition of the variant, the string capa-
        bility use can be given with the name  of  the  base  terminal.
        The  capabilities  given  before use override those in the base
        type named by use.  If there  are  multiple  use  capabilities,
        they  are  merged in reverse order.  That is, the rightmost use
        reference is processed first, then the one to its left, and  so
        forth.   Capabilities  given  explicitly  in the entry override
        those brought in by use references.
        A capability can be canceled by placing xx@ to the left of  the
        use reference that imports it, where xx is the capability.  For
        example, the entry
                                 2621-nl, smkx@, rmkx@, use=2621,
        defines a 2621-nl that does not have the smkx or rmkx capabili-
        ties,  and  hence does not turn on the function key labels when
        in visual mode.  This is useful for different modes for a  ter-
        minal, or for different user preferences.



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Wed Jan  2 05:06:18 2013
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 05:06:18 -0800
Subject: [buug] converting Ubuntu to Xubuntu?
In-Reply-To: <20121222003653.15976g6xmsvywoco@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <20121222003653.15976g6xmsvywoco@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <20130102050618.393764bkjxy7qfk8@webmail.rawbw.com>

Anyway, thought I'd peek a bit more closely.
For earlier background, see:
http://buug.org/pipermail/buug/2012-December/003964.html
http://buug.org/pipermail/buug/2012-December/003965.html
et. seq.

my comments on lines starting with //
// So, I launch:
// Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS "Precise Pangolin" - Release i386 (20120817.3
// and:
// Xubuntu 12.04.1 LTS "Precise Pangolin" - Release i386 (20120817.3)
// from CD ISO images on a pair of virtual machines:
# virsh list --all
  Id Name                 State
----------------------------------
   5 ubuntu               running
   6 xubuntu              running

#
// on each, I do:
# apt-get --no-install-recommends install openssh-server
// and put ssh keys in place.
// the leading "> " are PS2 prompts
$ (for hn in ubuntu xubuntu; do
> for id in "$hn" root; do
> echo $(ssh -ax -l "$id" "$hn" 'hostname; id -un')
> done; done)
ubuntu ubuntu
ubuntu root
xubuntu xubuntu
xubuntu root
$ (for hn in ubuntu xubuntu; do
> ssh -ax -l "$hn" "$hn" 'grep -i ubuntu /etc/passwd; uname -a
> head -n 1 /etc/motd; lsb_release -drc'
> done)
ubuntu:x:999:999:Live session user,,,:/home/ubuntu:/bin/bash
Linux ubuntu 3.2.0-29-generic-pae #46-Ubuntu SMP Fri Jul 27 17:25:43  
UTC 2012 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
Welcome to Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS (GNU/Linux 3.2.0-29-generic-pae i686)
Description:    Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS
Release:        12.04
Codename:       precise
xubuntu:x:999:999:Live session user,,,:/home/xubuntu:/bin/bash
Linux xubuntu 3.2.0-29-generic #46-Ubuntu SMP Fri Jul 27 17:04:05 UTC  
2012 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
Welcome to Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS (GNU/Linux 3.2.0-29-generic i686)
Description:    Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS
Release:        12.04
Codename:       precise
$
// note the PAE kernel used (at least by default) on Ubuntu, but not
// on Xubuntu
// package differences?
// what packages on xubuntu but not ubuntu?
$ { ssh -ax -l ubuntu ubuntu 'dpkg --get-selections' | awk '
> {if($2=="install")print $1; print$1;}'; ssh -ax -l xubuntu xubuntu '
> dpkg --get-selections' | awk '{if($2=="install")print $1;}' | sort -u
> } | sort | uniq -u
abiword
abiword-common
abiword-plugin-grammar
abiword-plugin-mathview
alacarte
bison
blueman
brltty-x11
catfish
cmap-adobe-japan1
docbook-xml
exo-utils
firefox-locale-fr
flex
fonts-droid
gigolo
gimp
gimp-data
gmusicbrowser
gnome-desktop-data
gnome-system-tools
gnome-time-admin
gnumeric
gnumeric-common
gnumeric-doc
gstreamer0.10-gnomevfs
gthumb
gthumb-data
gtk2-engines-pixbuf
indicator-application-gtk2
indicator-messages-gtk2
indicator-sound-gtk2
indicator-status-provider-pidgin
language-pack-fr
language-pack-fr-base
language-pack-gnome-fr
language-pack-gnome-fr-base
language-pack-gnome-xh
language-pack-gnome-xh-base
language-pack-xh
language-pack-xh-base
leafpad
libabiword-2.9
libao-common
libao4
libaudio-scrobbler-perl
libbabl-0.0-0
libbison-dev
libcolamd2.7.1
libconfig-inifiles-perl
libdigest-crc-perl
libencode-locale-perl
libept1.4.12
libexo-1-0
libexo-common
libexo-helpers
libfile-listing-perl
libfl-dev
libfont-afm-perl
libgarcon-1-0
libgarcon-common
libgdome2-0
libgdome2-cpp-smart0c2a
libgegl-0.0-0
libgimp2.0
libglade2-0
libgnomevfs2-0
libgnomevfs2-common
libgnomevfs2-extra
libgoffice-0.8-8
libgoffice-0.8-8-common
libgsf-1-114
libgsf-1-common
libgstreamer-perl
libgtk2-notify-perl
libgtk2-trayicon-perl
libgtkmathview0c2a
libgtkspell0
libhtml-form-perl
libhtml-format-perl
libhtml-parser-perl
libhtml-tagset-perl
libhtml-tree-perl
libhttp-cookies-perl
libhttp-daemon-perl
libhttp-date-perl
libhttp-message-perl
libhttp-negotiate-perl
libid3tag0
libido-0.1-0
libilmbase6
libio-socket-inet6-perl
libio-socket-ssl-perl
libjavascriptcoregtk-1.0-0
libjpeg-progs
libjpeg-turbo-progs
libkeybinder0
liblaunchpad-integration1
liblink-grammar4
libloudmouth1-0
liblwp-mediatypes-perl
liblwp-protocol-https-perl
libmad0
libmailtools-perl
libnet-dbus-perl
libnet-http-perl
libnet-ssleay-perl
liboobs-1-5
libopenexr6
libotr2
libots0
librarian0
libsexy2
libsocket6-perl
libtagc0
libthunarx-2-0
libtidy-0.99-0
libtie-ixhash-perl
libtimedate-perl
libtumbler-1-0
libunique-1.0-0
liburi-perl
libvte-common
libvte9
libwebkitgtk-1.0-0
libwebkitgtk-1.0-common
libwv-1.2-4
libwww-perl
libwww-robotrules-perl
libxfce4ui-1-0
libxfce4util-bin
libxfce4util-common
libxfce4util4
libxfcegui4-4
libxfconf-0-2
libxml-parser-perl
libxml-twig-perl
libxml-xpath-perl
libxss1
lightdm-gtk-greeter
link-grammar-dictionaries-en
linux-generic
linux-headers-3.2.0-29-generic
linux-headers-generic
linux-image-3.2.0-29-generic
linux-image-generic
lp-solve
m4
miscfiles
mpg321
orage
parole
pastebinit
pavucontrol
pidgin
pidgin-data
pidgin-libnotify
pidgin-microblog
pidgin-otr
plymouth-theme-xubuntu-logo
plymouth-theme-xubuntu-text
python-configobj
python-glade2
python-gmenu
rarian-compat
ristretto
screensaver-default-images
sgml-data
shimmer-themes
synaptic
system-tools-backends
tcl8.5
thunar
thunar-archive-plugin
thunar-data
thunar-media-tags-plugin
thunar-volman
ttf-droid
ttf-lyx
tumbler
tumbler-common
ubiquity-slideshow-xubuntu
xchat
xchat-common
xfburn
xfce-keyboard-shortcuts
xfce4-appfinder
xfce4-cpugraph-plugin
xfce4-datetime-plugin
xfce4-dict
xfce4-indicator-plugin
xfce4-mailwatch-plugin
xfce4-netload-plugin
xfce4-notes
xfce4-notes-plugin
xfce4-notifyd
xfce4-panel
xfce4-places-plugin
xfce4-power-manager
xfce4-power-manager-data
xfce4-quicklauncher-plugin
xfce4-screenshooter
xfce4-session
xfce4-settings
xfce4-systemload-plugin
xfce4-taskmanager
xfce4-terminal
xfce4-utils
xfce4-verve-plugin
xfce4-volumed
xfce4-weather-plugin
xfce4-xkb-plugin
xfconf
xfdesktop4
xfdesktop4-data
xfwm4
xscreensaver
xscreensaver-data
xscreensaver-gl
xubuntu-artwork
xubuntu-default-settings
xubuntu-desktop
xubuntu-docs
xubuntu-icon-theme
xubuntu-live-settings
xubuntu-wallpapers
// what packages on ubuntu but not xubuntu?
$ { ssh -ax -l xubuntu xubuntu 'dpkg --get-selections' | awk '
> {if($2=="install")print $1; print$1;}'; ssh -ax -l ubuntu ubuntu '
> dpkg --get-selections' | awk '{if($2=="install")print $1;}' | sort -u
> } | sort | uniq -u
activity-log-manager-common
activity-log-manager-control-center
adium-theme-ubuntu
apg
appmenu-gtk
appmenu-gtk3
appmenu-qt
apturl
apturl-common
bamfdaemon
baobab
bluez-gstreamer
branding-ubuntu
brasero
brasero-cdrkit
brasero-common
checkbox
checkbox-qt
cmap-adobe-japan2
compiz
compiz-core
compiz-gnome
compiz-plugins-default
compiz-plugins-main-default
compizconfig-backend-gconf
deja-dup
duplicity
dvd+rw-tools
empathy
empathy-common
eog
evolution-data-server
evolution-data-server-common
example-content
folks-common
gedit
gedit-common
geoclue
geoclue-ubuntu-geoip
ginn
gir1.2-gnomebluetooth-1.0
gir1.2-gnomekeyring-1.0
gir1.2-gst-plugins-base-0.10
gir1.2-gtksource-3.0
gir1.2-indicate-0.7
gir1.2-peas-1.0
gir1.2-rb-3.0
gir1.2-totem-1.0
gir1.2-totem-plparser-1.0
gir1.2-ubuntuoneui-3.0
gnome-bluetooth
gnome-control-center
gnome-control-center-data
gnome-desktop3-data
gnome-disk-utility
gnome-font-viewer
gnome-icon-theme-symbolic
gnome-media
gnome-menus
gnome-nettool
gnome-online-accounts
gnome-orca
gnome-power-manager
gnome-screensaver
gnome-screenshot
gnome-session
gnome-session-bin
gnome-session-canberra
gnome-session-common
gnome-settings-daemon
gnome-system-log
gnome-system-monitor
gnome-terminal
gnome-terminal-data
gnome-user-share
growisofs
gstreamer0.10-gconf
gwibber
gwibber-service
gwibber-service-facebook
gwibber-service-identica
gwibber-service-twitter
hwdata
indicator-appmenu
indicator-datetime
indicator-power
indicator-printers
indicator-session
intel-gpu-tools
landscape-client-ui-install
libatk-adaptor
libatk-adaptor-schemas
libaudio2
libavahi-gobject0
libavahi-ui-gtk3-0
libbamf0
libbamf3-0
libboost-serialization1.46.1
libbrasero-media3-1
libcamel-1.2-29
libcanberra-gtk-module
libcanberra-gtk0
libcanberra-pulse
libcmis-0.2-0
libcompizconfig0
libcurl3
libcurl3-nss
libdbusmenu-qt2
libdconf-dbus-1-0
libdconf-qt0
libdecoration0
libdiscid0
libdmapsharing-3.0-2
libebackend-1.2-1
libebook-1.2-12
libecal-1.2-10
libedata-book-1.2-11
libedata-cal-1.2-13
libedataserver-1.2-15
libedataserverui-3.0-1
libexempi3
libexttextcat-data
libexttextcat0
libfolks-eds25
libfolks-telepathy25
libfolks25
libfreerdp-plugins-standard
libfreerdp1
libgail-common
libgdata-common
libgdata13
libgdu-gtk0
libgexiv2-1
libglew1.6
libglewmx1.6
libgmime-2.6-0
libgnome-control-center1
libgnome-desktop-3-2
libgnome-media-profiles-3.0-0
libgnome2-common
libgnomekbd-common
libgnomekbd7
libgoa-1.0-0
libgoa-1.0-common
libgpgme11
libgpod-common
libgpod4
libgtksourceview-3.0-0
libgtksourceview-3.0-common
libgtkspell-3-0
libgweather-3-0
libgweather-common
libgwibber-gtk2
libgwibber2
libhyphen0
libidl-common
libidl0
liblircclient0
liblouis-data
liblouis2
libmetacity-private0
libmission-control-plugins0
libmtp-common
libmtp-runtime
libmtp9
libmusicbrainz3-6
libmythes-1.2-0
libneon27-gnutls
libnux-2.0-0
libnux-2.0-common
liboauth0
liborbit2
liboverlay-scrollbar-0.2-0
liboverlay-scrollbar3-0.2-0
libpackagekit-glib2-14
libpeas-1.0-0
libpeas-common
libprotobuf7
libprotoc7
libproxy1-plugin-gsettings
libproxy1-plugin-networkmanager
libpth20
libqt4-dbus
libqt4-declarative
libqt4-network
libqt4-opengl
libqt4-script
libqt4-sql
libqt4-sql-sqlite
libqt4-svg
libqt4-xml
libqt4-xmlpatterns
libqtbamf1
libqtcore4
libqtdee2
libqtgconf1
libqtgui4
libquvi-scripts
libquvi7
libraw5
libreoffice-base-core
libreoffice-calc
libreoffice-common
libreoffice-core
libreoffice-draw
libreoffice-emailmerge
libreoffice-gnome
libreoffice-gtk
libreoffice-help-en-us
libreoffice-impress
libreoffice-math
libreoffice-style-human
libreoffice-style-tango
libreoffice-writer
librest-0.7-0
librhythmbox-core5
librsync1
libsdl1.2debian
libssh-4
libstlport4.6ldbl
libsyncdaemon-1.0-1
libtelepathy-farstream2
libtelepathy-logger2
libtotem-plparser17
libtotem0
libubuntuoneui-3.0-1
libunique-3.0-0
libunity-2d-private0
libunity-core-5.0-5
libunity-misc4
libvncserver0
libwacom-common
libwacom2
libwmf0.2-7-gtk
libzeitgeist-1.0-1
light-themes
linux-generic-pae
linux-headers-3.2.0-29-generic-pae
linux-headers-generic-pae
linux-image-3.2.0-29-generic-pae
linux-image-generic-pae
media-player-info
metacity
metacity-common
mousetweaks
nautilus
nautilus-sendto
nautilus-sendto-empathy
nautilus-share
notify-osd
notify-osd-icons
nux-tools
obexd-client
overlay-scrollbar
plymouth-theme-ubuntu-logo
protobuf-compiler
pulseaudio-module-bluetooth
pulseaudio-module-gconf
python-aptdaemon.pkcompat
python-brlapi
python-configglue
python-dateutil
python-dirspec
python-egenix-mxdatetime
python-egenix-mxtools
python-libproxy
python-louis
python-mako
python-markupsafe
python-packagekit
python-protobuf
python-pyatspi2
python-pyinotify
python-speechd
python-twisted-names
python-ubuntuone-client
python-ubuntuone-control-panel
python-ubuntuone-storageprotocol
python-uno
python-zeitgeist
qdbus
qt-at-spi
remmina
remmina-common
remmina-plugin-rdp
remmina-plugin-vnc
rhythmbox
rhythmbox-data
rhythmbox-mozilla
rhythmbox-plugin-cdrecorder
rhythmbox-plugin-magnatune
rhythmbox-plugin-zeitgeist
rhythmbox-plugins
rhythmbox-ubuntuone
seahorse
shotwell
sni-qt
ssh-askpass-gnome
telepathy-gabble
telepathy-haze
telepathy-idle
telepathy-indicator
telepathy-logger
telepathy-mission-control-5
telepathy-salut
thunderbird-gnome-support
totem
totem-common
totem-mozilla
totem-plugins
ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
ubuntu-artwork
ubuntu-desktop
ubuntu-docs
ubuntu-mono
ubuntu-sounds
ubuntu-system-service
ubuntu-wallpapers
ubuntu-wallpapers-precise
ubuntuone-client
ubuntuone-client-gnome
ubuntuone-control-panel
ubuntuone-couch
ubuntuone-installer
unity
unity-2d
unity-2d-common
unity-2d-panel
unity-2d-shell
unity-2d-spread
unity-asset-pool
unity-common
unity-greeter
unity-lens-applications
unity-lens-files
unity-lens-music
unity-lens-video
unity-scope-musicstores
unity-scope-video-remote
unity-services
uno-libs3
ure
vino
whois
whoopsie
wodim
xdiagnose
xfonts-mathml
zeitgeist
zeitgeist-core
zeitgeist-datahub
$
// what about configuration files that differ?
// we'll just check files under /etc, though that may not be all such
// files, but should at least be most of them.
// Note that many of these may be specific to the different packages
// installed on the two remixes.  Once the installed packages
// match and removed packages are purged (which removes their
// configuration files), the remaining set of differences may then be
// much smaller.
// A slight bit of differences will be from distinct server ssh keys for
// the openssh-server that I installed.
// I did also add /etc/init/ttyS0.conf, which also differs between them
// - in use of ubuntu vs. xubuntu user.
$ { ssh -ax -l root ubuntu '
> find /etc -follow -type f -exec md5sum '\''{}'\'' '\'';'\'''
> ssh -ax -l root xubuntu '
> find /etc -follow -type f -exec md5sum '\''{}'\'' '\'';'\'''
> } | sort | uniq -u | awk '{print $2;}' | sort -u
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/50_check_unity_support
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/55gnome-session_gnomerc
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/60xbrlapi
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/65compiz_profile-on-session
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/80appmenu
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/80appmenu-gtk3
/etc/X11/app-defaults/XScreenSaver
/etc/X11/app-defaults/XScreenSaver-gl
/etc/X11/app-defaults/XScreenSaver-nogl
/etc/X11/fonts/Type1/xfonts-mathml.scale
/etc/alternatives/default.plymouth
/etc/alternatives/default.plymouth.grub
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/78-EUC-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/78-EUC-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/78-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/78-RKSJ-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/78-RKSJ-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/78-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/78ms-RKSJ-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/78ms-RKSJ-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/83pv-RKSJ-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/90ms-RKSJ-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/90ms-RKSJ-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/90msp-RKSJ-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/90msp-RKSJ-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/90pv-RKSJ-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/90pv-RKSJ-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Add-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Add-RKSJ-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Add-RKSJ-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Add-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Adobe-Japan1-0
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Adobe-Japan1-1
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Adobe-Japan1-2
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Adobe-Japan1-3
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Adobe-Japan1-4
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Adobe-Japan1-5
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Adobe-Japan1-6
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/EUC-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/EUC-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Ext-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Ext-RKSJ-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Ext-RKSJ-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Ext-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Hankaku
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Hiragana
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Katakana
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/NWP-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/NWP-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/RKSJ-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/RKSJ-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/Roman
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS-UCS2-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS-UCS2-HW-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS-UCS2-HW-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS-UCS2-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS-UTF16-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS-UTF16-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS-UTF32-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS-UTF32-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS-UTF8-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS-UTF8-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS2004-UTF16-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS2004-UTF16-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS2004-UTF32-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS2004-UTF32-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS2004-UTF8-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJIS2004-UTF8-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJISPro-UCS2-HW-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJISPro-UCS2-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJISPro-UTF8-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJISX0213-UTF32-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJISX0213-UTF32-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJISX02132004-UTF32-H
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/UniJISX02132004-UTF32-V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/V
/etc/alternatives/ghostscript-current/Resource/CMap/WP-Symbol
/etc/alternatives/gnome-text-editor
/etc/alternatives/gnome-text-editor.1.gz
/etc/alternatives/lightdm-gtk-greeter-config-derivative
/etc/alternatives/mp3-decoder
/etc/alternatives/mp3-decoder.1.gz
/etc/alternatives/mpg123
/etc/alternatives/mpg123.1.gz
/etc/alternatives/newt-palette
/etc/alternatives/ssh-askpass
/etc/alternatives/ssh-askpass.1.gz
/etc/alternatives/tclsh
/etc/alternatives/tclsh.1
/etc/alternatives/text.plymouth
/etc/alternatives/x-session-manager
/etc/alternatives/x-session-manager.1.gz
/etc/alternatives/x-terminal-emulator
/etc/alternatives/x-terminal-emulator.1.gz
/etc/alternatives/x-window-manager
/etc/alternatives/x-window-manager.1.gz
/etc/alternatives/yacc
/etc/alternatives/yaccman
/etc/apg.conf
/etc/apparmor.d/local/usr.lib.telepathy
/etc/apparmor.d/usr.lib.telepathy
/etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/indicator-appmenu-crashdb.conf
/etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/ubuntuone-client-crashdb.conf
/etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/unity-crashdb.conf
/etc/apt/sources.list
/etc/apt/sources.list~
/etc/apt/trustdb.gpg
/etc/bash_completion.d/libreoffice.sh
/etc/bash_completion.d/zeitgeist-daemon
/etc/brlapi.key
/etc/brltty/brl-xw-all.txt
/etc/casper.conf
/etc/checkbox.d/checkbox-qt.ini
/etc/checkbox.d/checkbox.ini
/etc/compizconfig/config
/etc/compizconfig/unity.ini
/etc/compizconfig/upgrades/com.canonical.unity.unity.01.upgrade
/etc/compizconfig/upgrades/com.canonical.unity.unity.02.upgrade
/etc/compizconfig/upgrades/com.canonical.unity.unity.03.upgrade
/etc/console-setup/cached.kmap.gz
/etc/cups/ssl/server.crt
/etc/cups/ssl/server.key
/etc/cups/subscriptions.conf
/etc/cups/subscriptions.conf.O
/etc/dbus-1/system.d/com.ubuntu.SystemService.conf
/etc/dbus-1/system.d/com.ubuntu.WhoopsiePreferences.conf
/etc/dbus-1/system.d/org.blueman.Mechanism.conf
/etc/dbus-1/system.d/org.freedesktop.PackageKit-aptd.conf
/etc/dbus-1/system.d/org.freedesktop.SystemToolsBackends.conf
/etc/dbus-1/system.d/org.freedesktop.hostname1.conf
/etc/dbus-1/system.d/org.freedesktop.locale1.conf
/etc/dbus-1/system.d/org.gnome.SettingsDaemon.DateTimeMechanism.conf
/etc/default/whoopsie
/etc/dictionaries-common/words
/etc/firefox/pref/apturl.js
/etc/fonts/conf.avail/59-droid-serif-fonts.conf
/etc/fonts/conf.avail/60-droid-sans-mono-fonts.conf
/etc/fonts/conf.avail/65-droid-sans-fonts.conf
/etc/fonts/conf.d/59-droid-serif-fonts.conf
/etc/fonts/conf.d/60-droid-sans-mono-fonts.conf
/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-droid-sans-fonts.conf
/etc/gimp/2.0/controllerrc
/etc/gimp/2.0/gimprc
/etc/gimp/2.0/gtkrc
/etc/gimp/2.0/menurc
/etc/gimp/2.0/ps-menurc
/etc/gimp/2.0/sessionrc
/etc/gimp/2.0/templaterc
/etc/gimp/2.0/unitrc
/etc/ginn/wishes.xml
/etc/gnome-system-tools/user-profiles.conf
/etc/gnome-vfs-2.0/modules/default-modules.conf
/etc/gnome-vfs-2.0/modules/extra-modules.conf
/etc/gnome/menus.blacklist
/etc/group
/etc/group-
/etc/gshadow
/etc/gshadow-
/etc/gtkmathview/dictionary-debian.xml
/etc/gtkmathview/gtkmathview.conf.xml
/etc/hostname
/etc/hosts
/etc/init.d/failsafe-x
/etc/init.d/whoopsie
/etc/init/failsafe-x.conf
/etc/init/tty1.conf
/etc/init/tty2.conf
/etc/init/tty3.conf
/etc/init/tty4.conf
/etc/init/tty5.conf
/etc/init/tty6.conf
/etc/init/ttyS0.conf
/etc/init/whoopsie.conf
/etc/ld.so.cache
/etc/libao.conf
/etc/libreoffice/psprint.conf
/etc/libreoffice/soffice.sh
/etc/libreoffice/sofficerc
/etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter-ubuntu.conf
/etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf
/etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf
/etc/mailcap
/etc/motd
/etc/netscsid.conf
/etc/newt/palette
/etc/pam.d/gnome-screensaver
/etc/pam.d/xscreensaver
/etc/passwd
/etc/passwd-
/etc/popularity-contest.conf
/etc/purple/prefs.xml
/etc/sgml/catalog
/etc/sgml/catalog.old
/etc/sgml/docbook-xml.cat
/etc/sgml/docbook-xml.cat.old
/etc/sgml/docbook-xml/4.0/dbgenent.ent
/etc/sgml/docbook-xml/4.1.2/dbgenent.mod
/etc/sgml/docbook-xml/4.2/dbgenent.mod
/etc/sgml/docbook-xml/4.3/dbgenent.mod
/etc/sgml/docbook-xml/4.4/dbgenent.mod
/etc/sgml/docbook-xml/4.5/dbgenent.mod
/etc/sgml/metacity-common.cat
/etc/sgml/sgml-data.cat
/etc/sgml/sgml-data.cat.old
/etc/shadow
/etc/shadow-
/etc/skel/.Xdefaults
/etc/skel/.xscreensaver
/etc/skel/examples.desktop
/etc/sound/events/gnome-2.soundlist
/etc/sound/events/gtk-events-2.soundlist
/etc/ssh/ssh_host_dsa_key
/etc/ssh/ssh_host_dsa_key.pub
/etc/ssh/ssh_host_ecdsa_key
/etc/ssh/ssh_host_ecdsa_key.pub
/etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key
/etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key.pub
/etc/ssl/certs/0c31d5ce
/etc/ssl/certs/1c7314a2
/etc/ssl/certs/UbuntuOne-Go_Daddy_CA.pem
/etc/ssl/certs/UbuntuOne-Go_Daddy_Class_2_CA.pem
/etc/ssl/certs/ValiCert_Class_2_VA.pem.dpkg-new
/etc/ssl/certs/dd892c39
/etc/ssl/certs/ssl-cert-snakeoil.pem
/etc/ssl/private/ssl-cert-snakeoil.key
/etc/sudoers
/etc/wodim.conf
/etc/xdg/Thunar/uca.xml
/etc/xdg/Trolltech.conf
/etc/xdg/autostart/blueman.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/bluetooth-applet-unity.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/bluetooth-applet.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/deja-dup-monitor.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/gdu-notification-daemon.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/gnome-fallback-mount-helper.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/gnome-screensaver.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/gnome-settings-daemon.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/gnome-sound-applet.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/gnome-user-share.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/gwibber.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/nautilus-autostart.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/orca-autostart.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/telepathy-indicator.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/ubuntuone-launch.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/vino-server.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/xfce4-notes-autostart.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/xfce4-power-manager.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/xfce4-settings-helper-autostart.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/xfce4-volumed.desktop
/etc/xdg/autostart/zeitgeist-datahub.desktop
/etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu
/etc/xdg/menus/gnomecc.menu
/etc/xdg/menus/unity-lens-applications.menu
/etc/xdg/menus/xfce-applications.menu
/etc/xdg/sni-qt.conf
/etc/xdg/ubuntuone/logging.conf
/etc/xdg/ubuntuone/syncdaemon.conf
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/Terminal/terminalrc
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/Thunar/thunarrc
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/Thunar/uca.xml
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/autostart/xfce4-tips-autostart.desktop
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/menus/xfce-applications.menu
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/orage/oragerc
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/helpers.rc
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/panel/datetime-7.rc
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/panel/default.xml
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/panel/indicator-5.rc
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/thunar-volman.xml
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-desktop.xml
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-keyboard-shortcuts.xml
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-notifyd.xml
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-session.xml
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfprint.xml
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfwm4.xml
/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xsettings.xml
/etc/xdg/xfce4/Xft.xrdb
/etc/xdg/xfce4/helpers.rc
/etc/xdg/xfce4/panel/default.xml
/etc/xdg/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/thunar-volman.xml
/etc/xdg/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-keyboard-shortcuts.xml
/etc/xdg/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-power-manager.xml
/etc/xdg/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-session.xml
/etc/xdg/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xsettings.xml
/etc/xdg/xfce4/xinitrc
/etc/xml/catalog
/etc/xml/catalog.old
/etc/xml/docbook-xml.xml
/etc/xml/docbook-xml.xml.old
/etc/xml/rarian-compat.xml
/etc/xml/sgml-data.xml
/etc/xml/sgml-data.xml.old
$
// how do the APT sources look/compare/differ?
$ ssh -ax -l ubuntu ubuntu '
> grep '\''^[   ]*[^    #]'\'' /etc/apt/sources.list'
deb cdrom:[Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS _Precise Pangolin_ - Release i386  
(20120817.3)]/ precise main restricted
deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ precise main restricted
deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ precise-security main restricted
deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ precise-updates main restricted
$ ssh -ax -l xubuntu xubuntu '
> grep '\''^[   ]*[^    #]'\'' /etc/apt/sources.list'
deb cdrom:[Xubuntu 12.04.1 LTS _Precise Pangolin_ - Release i386  
(20120817.3)]/ precise main multiverse restricted universe
deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ precise main restricted universe  
multiverse
deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ precise-security main  
restricted universe multiverse
deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ precise-updates main restricted  
universe multiverse
$
// So, essentially Xubuntu uses different CD, and adds universe and
// multiverse, but is otherwise the same.
// And, though not exactly trivial, given the similarities and overlap,
// and use of same repository (even if differing in additional sections
// thereof), it is apparently quite feasible to be able to convert from
// one to the other - and in either direction.
// Likely "gottcha"s are specific configurations for the user ID used in
// numerous locations (ubuntu vs. xubuntu user), and any other bits that
// may differ and in fact matter.



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Jan  2 08:09:03 2013
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 08:09:03 -0800
Subject: [buug] converting Ubuntu to Xubuntu?
In-Reply-To: <20130102050618.393764bkjxy7qfk8@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <20121222003653.15976g6xmsvywoco@webmail.rawbw.com>
 <20130102050618.393764bkjxy7qfk8@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <20130102160903.GP25491@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Michael Paoli (Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu):

[stuff]
> // So, essentially Xubuntu uses different CD, and adds universe and
> // multiverse, but is otherwise the same.
> // And, though not exactly trivial, given the similarities and overlap,
> // and use of same repository (even if differing in additional sections
> // thereof), it is apparently quite feasible to be able to convert from
> // one to the other - and in either direction.

_Also_, you can just add the other's *-desktop metapackage to the other,
and have _both_ DEs at your disposal.

Basically, aside from tiny trivial things like differences in default
apt configurations (and other such nits that the administrator should
manage, anyway), each is just a shared Ubuntu core plus either
metapackage ubuntu-desktop or metapackage xubuntu-desktop.  Likewise,
kubuntu is basically the shared Ubuntu core plus metapackage
kubuntu-desktop, etc., etc.

Exactly as one would expect.

By the way, Michael, what would it take to get you to start using
paragraph breaks (a lot) more consistently?  The towering wall of text
gets old.



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Mon Jan  7 02:23:45 2013
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 02:23:45 -0800
Subject: [buug] [n]vi "vs." vim, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20130102023901.43302jn4i4a0z8mc@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <20130102023901.43302jn4i4a0z8mc@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <20130107022345.56964tp6y0kzhgqo@webmail.rawbw.com>

> I created an .exrc with the following two lines:
>
> :set showmode
> :set noflash
>
> The second line turns off the flashing screen error notification. The
> first line, of course, you recommended. Between these two, I think
> that is most of what I expect of vi. I don't need to mess with
> terminfo,but thankyou for the explanation.

Ah, I see that [n]vi also has [no]flash.  Historically, I don't think ye
olde AT&T, etc. vi had that option, and nvi may not have had it earlier
on.  In any case, that does make it easier to change that behavior for
just that single application - though it also adds "one more thing" to
the application itself (arguable if that's a good thing or not in this
case).  Still, if one wants to have that impact more generally, there's
terminfo (or termcap, as applicable).

In [n]vi, historically, the output from:
:se all
fit entirely within an 80x24 display.
Alas, now I find it goes a fair bit beyond that limit - but still a lot
less than two screens full of such text.  But, egad, vim fills multiple
screenfulls with the output from that ... let's see (ugh, I don't have
vim installed ... might as well, so I can more conveniently call out
its flaws ... and update-alternatives it mostly out of the way!) ...
vim
:se all
egad ... over 6 and onto 7 80x24 screenfulls of stuff.

> It does seemthough that a compatibility
> mode should be compatible except for unarguable improvements, bug
> fixes, or non-conflictual extensions. Even nvi has those, for
> example, infinite undo. I did not realize what a can of worms I was
> opening.

[n]vi makes some very few (but significant) functional changes compared
to ye olde classic vi - mostly just removed some limitations and fixed
some bugs, see:
http://buug.org/pipermail/buug/2011-April/003731.html

As far as I'm aware, [n]vi doesn't have "infinite undo" - but vim does.
(but why would I want infinite undo?  Can't say I've ever really needed
it.
There's always:
:q!
:e!
"1p
"1P
.
u
U
:se readonly
:!chmod a-w %
26 "named" (letters) buffers
9 numbered delete buffers
1 unnamed default buffer
and of course one can work with multiple files
and one can even not tell the editor the name of the file, e.g.:
$ vi
:0r !cat file
)

> creator of vim, Bram Moolenaar.
> Bram claims that vim is"99.9% backwards compatible with Vi".
[cough].  Uhm, more like about 97 or 98.something %, but certainly not
99 or high 99.something %.  When the keystrokes and commands fly off the
fingertips at fairly significant speed and efficiently, "suddenly"
having well over 1% of them do something unexpected cuts way down on
efficiency and introduces errors and unintended consequences.

> If , as you say, he has his own way of doing regular expressions, I
> can'tsee any excuse for that.
Not "totally" different, but significantly different - we're not talking
an exception or two or three, but probably more like about a dozen or
more things done differently ("extended") with vim's REs that aren't
done that same way in any other RE program.

> But he has his own software
> "charityware" licensewhich would make it disadvantageous to do
Well, I'm not much a fan of "yet another license", but it looks like the
license is "good enough" it apparently passed DFSG criteria (it's in
Debian main), so I'm not going to nit pick over it on that (it's got
other bigger nits to be picked at).
> I expect you will never see it on the Gnu website.
Probably not a possibility until such time as it is licensed or also
licensed under GPL - and in the meantime, I think GNU's probably got
enough stuff and responsibility (and bugs) to deal with as it is.

>> ----- Forwarded message from Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu -----
>>    From: "Michael Paoli" <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu>
>>
>> And [n]vi, vim, etc. bits:
>> http://buug.org/pipermail/buug/2013-January/003969.html

references/excerpts:
http://buug.org/pipermail/buug/2013-January/003969.html
http://buug.org/pipermail/buug/2011-April/003724.html
et. seq.



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Thu Jan 10 13:56:34 2013
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:56:34 -0800
Subject: [buug] BALUG Tu 2013-01-15: Grant Bowman: ubuntu-california.org Q&A;
	&	other BALUG news
Message-ID: <20130110135634.17064f6b5brob9k4@webmail.rawbw.com>

BALUG Tu 2013-01-15: Grant Bowman: ubuntu-california.org Q&A; & other  
BALUG news

------------------------------

items, details further below:
BALUG Tu 2013-01-15: Grant Bowman: ubuntu-california.org Q&A
BALUG Tu 2013-02-19: Elizabeth Krumbach on Linux deployments in Ghana
Petition US Government - free / open source software in schools
Book(s), CDs/DVDs, and other "door prizes", etc.
"slides" from: BALUG 2012-07-17 screen(1) presented by Michael Paoli
volunteering to help BALUG
Twitter https://twitter.com/#!/BALUG_org

------------------------------

Bay Area Linux User Group (BALUG) meeting
Tuesday 6:30 P.M. 2013-01-15

For our 2013-01-15 BALUG meeting, we're proud to present:

Grant Bowman - ubuntu-california.org[1] Q&A

Everything you ever wanted to know about the California Team and the
Ubuntu community.  How to represent Ubuntu[2] in local Linux User Groups
and participate online and around the world in the semi-annual Ubuntu
community events scheduled around the six month Ubuntu release cadence
in April and October.

Mr. Bowman has been a consultant and Internet professional for over
twenty years and is presently a Director of Partimus[3].  He is one of
three elected ubuntu-california.org[1] leaders, an Ubuntu Member,
Fedora[4] Ambassador[5] and former employee of suse.com[6].  He is
active with berkeleylug.com[7], noisebridge.net[8], SF-LUG[9] and
DVLUG[10] and his website is at grantbow.com[11].

1. http://ubuntu-california.org/
2. http://www.ubuntu.com/
3. http://partimus.org/
4. http://fedoraproject.org/
5. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors
6. https://www.suse.com/
7. http://berkeleylug.com/
8. https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Noisebridge
9. http://sf-lug.com/
10. http://dvlug.org/
11. http://www.grantbow.com/

Please RSVP if you're planning to come (see further below).

For our 2013-01-15 BALUG meeting, we're proud to present:

So, if you'd like to join us please RSVP to:

                        rsvp at balug.org

**Why RSVP??**

Well, don't worry we won't turn you away, but the RSVPs really help
BALUG and the Four Seas Restaurant plan the meal and meeting, and with
sufficient attendance, they also help ensure that we'll be able to eat
upstairs in the private banquet room.

Meeting Details...

   6:30pm
   Tuesday, January 15th, 2012 2013-01-15

   Four Seas Restaurant http://www.fourseasr.com/
   731 Grant Ave.
   San Francisco, CA 94108
   Easy PARKING:
     Portsmouth Square Garage at 733 Kearny:
     http://www.sfpsg.com/

   Cost: The meetings are always free, but for dinner, for your gift of
     $13 cash or more, we give you a gift of dinner - joining us for a
     yummy family-style Chinese dinner - tax and tip included (your gift
     also helps in our patronizing the restaurant venue and helping to
     defray BALUG costs such as treating our speakers to dinner).

------------------------------
For our 2013-01-15 BALUG meeting, we're proud to present:

Elizabeth Krumbach on Linux deployments in Ghana

In October of 2012 Elizabeth Krumbach accompanied other volunteers from
Computer Reach[1], a non-profit based out of Pittsburgh, PA, on a trip
to Ghana in western Africa to assist with the deployment of 100
Edubuntu[2]-based desktop computers.  In this talk she will share
photos and details of the trip, along with some of the lessons they
learned about doing such a deployment in a developing country, covering
hardware, software and training requirements.  For a bit more
background, one can also have a look at her earlier Ubuntu User[3]
article: Road Trip: Delivering Edbuntu systems to Ghana[4].

Elizabeth Krumbach works as a Linux Systems Administrator focused on
continuous integration, holds a position on the Ubuntu Community
Council[5] and is the Treasurer and a Director at the non-profit
Partimus[6].  She has held a leadership position in the Ubuntu
Women[7], Ubuntu Classroom[8] and Ubuntu News[9] projects for several
years and recently took over as Marketing and Website lead for the
Xubuntu[10] Linux distribution.  Former coordinator for the
Philadelphia area Linux Users Group[11], she is now living in San
Francisco and is one of the leaders of the Ubuntu California[12] team
where she coordinates Bay Area Ubuntu events and meetings, install
fests, booths and hosts Debian dinners every couple months for Bay Area
Debian[13].

1. http://computereach.com/
2. http://edubuntu.org/
3. http://www.ubuntu-user.com/
4.  
http://www.ubuntu-user.com/content/download/3340/22578/file/070-073_edubuntu.pdf
5. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil
6. http://www.partimus.org/
7. http://women.ubuntu.com/
8. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
9. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewsTeam
10. http://www.xubuntu.org/
11. http://www.phillylinux.org/
12. http://ubuntu-california.org/
13. http://bad.debian.net/

------------------------------

Petition US Government - free / open source software in schools

If you've not seen it[1], there's an on-line petition[2] to urge the US
Government to favor and encourage free Open Source software use in and
by schools.

1.  
http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-talk-balug.org/2013-January/004925.html
2. http://wh.gov/Rz6C

------------------------------

Book(s), CDs/DVDs, and other "door prizes", etc.

Goodies we'll have at the meeting (at least the following):

eBook review copy (only one copy remains):
A Practical Guide to Linux Commands, Editors, and Shell Programming,
3rd Edition, Mark G. Sobell
http://www.informit.com/title/013308504X
http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-talk-balug.org/2012-November/004885.html

CDs/DVDs, etc. - have a peek here:
http://www.wiki.balug.org/wiki/doku.php?id=balug:cds_and_images_etc
We may also be able to "burn" images per request or copy to USB flash,
etc.  Donations of blank or +-RW media, USB flash, or funding thereof,
also appreciated.  See the above URL for details.

------------------------------

"slides" from: BALUG 2012-07-17 screen(1) presented by Michael Paoli

Missed that meeting, or want to review the materials?  Have a peek here:
http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-talk-balug.org/2013-January/004926.html

------------------------------

volunteering to help BALUG

Want to volunteer to help out BALUG?  Quite a variety of opportunities*
Drop us a note at:
balug-contact at balug.org
Or come talk to us at a BALUG meeting.
*e.g.:
o assist on publicity
o assist on speaker coordination/procurement, etc.
o webmastering
o archivist/history/retrieval/etc.
o Linux Systems Administration (e.g. do/assist/learn, with/under some
   quite experienced and skilled Linux systems administrators).
o and other various/miscellaneous tasks BALUG "ought" to be doing or
   would be good to do (feel free to bring in ideas!)

------------------------------

Twitter - you can also follow BALUG on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/#!/BALUG_org

------------------------------

Feedback on our publicity/announcements (e.g. contacts or lists where we
should get our information out that we're not presently reaching, or
things we should do differently): publicity-feedback at balug.org

------------------------------

http://www.balug.org/



From togo at of.net  Mon Jan 14 16:21:15 2013
From: togo at of.net (Tony Godshall)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:21:15 -0800
Subject: [buug] converting Ubuntu to Xubuntu?
In-Reply-To: <20130102160903.GP25491@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20121222003653.15976g6xmsvywoco@webmail.rawbw.com>
 <20130102050618.393764bkjxy7qfk8@webmail.rawbw.com>
 <20130102160903.GP25491@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <CAAOvATh9uTO4O=ZsYPR9jmaxYQH1OLwKBfL7NLx6Ugw6QOvWzA@mail.gmail.com>

...
> By the way, Michael, what would it take to get you to start using
> paragraph breaks (a lot) more consistently?  The towering wall of text
> gets old.

As monitors get wider and wider but not taller it becomes more and
more necessary to conserve vertical space.

Joking.

From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Thu Jan 17 18:16:19 2013
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 18:16:19 -0800
Subject: [buug] ISO date format
Message-ID: <20130117181619.41345iwg7bmhwvk8@webmail.rawbw.com>

At the last (2012-01-03) BUUG meeting, among other things discussed,
date and date/time format came up.  I mentioned ISO[1] date format,
and that I'd been using ISO date format, particularly the form:
YYYY-MM-DD since sometime in 1998.  Among some of its key advantages:
Y2K compliant
unambiguous,
sorts quite logically and simply,
language independent,
well known to more people on the planet than any other format.

Both basic and extended format were discussed, but not by name.  I note
that apparently the standard states: "The basic format should be avoided
in plain text." - essentially, the extended format is the preferred
format for human readability.

ISO date format is also conveniently available via date(1),
e.g., on POSIX/SUS[2] compliant systems:
$ date +%Y-%m-%d
2013-01-17
or additionally, on systems with GNU date[3]:
$ date -I
2013-01-17

Full time, to precision of second (or sometimes more) is also available,
e.g.:
$ date +%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S
2013-01-17T13:32:48
$ date -Iseconds
2013-01-17T13:32:48-0800

Note however that POSIX/SUS doesn't include convenient means to provide
timezone information in proper ISO format, however it can be fairly
easily coerced to do so, e.g.:
$ TZ=GMT0 date +%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S+00:00
2013-01-17T21:32:48+00:00
$ TZ=PST8 date +%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S-0800
2013-01-17T13:32:48-0800

Anyway, the simple sorting bit works great with just the dates, and in
a consistent ISO format.  When also including the time, it then becomes
a matter of timezone(s), consistent use and formatting thereof, and
Daylight Saving Time / Summer Time vs. not.  In all cases if one always
uses GMT0 (UTC, Z), and same precision and formatting, sorting
chronologically works quite simply and reliably.

Note also, that when it comes to logs and security, some entities won't
even accept or review/consider logs unless they're in UTC (GMT0).  Not
only does GMT0 (UTC) make so much sense for hardware clocks (and has
been what Unix, at least historically, uses for hardware clocks), but
in many cases - e.g. data/usage across timezones, or systems that
travel across timezones, it often makes for a sensible, or even "best"
choice, for system default timezone or system "local" time - though it
often may not make best or most convenient default timezone for "users"
- though that can, of course, be changed on user-by-user basis, or even
a different default created for "regular users".

Note also that many UNIX/Linux utilities and logging, etc., are (slowly)
tending more and more towards ISO date format in many cases.

And yes, I've at least occasionally made earlier mention[4] of ISO date
format.

footnotes/references:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
2. http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/date.html
3.  
http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Options-for-date.html#Options-for-date
4.  
http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-talk-balug.org/2010-February/004557.html



From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Thu Jan 17 18:16:23 2013
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 18:16:23 -0800
Subject: [buug] http.debian.net :-)
Message-ID: <20130117181623.18131v6q8n4x14zo@webmail.rawbw.com>

Also mentioned at BUUG meeting 2013-01-03:
http.debian.net
Though not "official" (yet?), quite cool and useful for,
e.g. most Debian Apt sources.list entries

"a new mirror redirector service, http.debian.net, that aims to reduce
the impact of occasionally offline or out-of-date mirrors, and to use
the worldwide network of mirrors more effectively. For now this service
is unofficial," ...

http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2012/13/#redirector

Alas, I've still got some catching up to do on reading earlier Debian
Project News mailings.  Which, by the way, is an excellent, and
relatively low volume (one per week, or less) list to read if one is
involved with or rather to quite interested in Debian.  If even that is
"too much", one may want to just subscribe to Debian Announce:
http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/debian-announce
which is about a dozen emailings per year (if you're only going to
follow one of those, then Debian Announce is probably best).


From rick at linuxmafia.com  Thu Jan 17 20:31:10 2013
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:31:10 -0800
Subject: [buug] ISO date format
In-Reply-To: <20130117181619.41345iwg7bmhwvk8@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <20130117181619.41345iwg7bmhwvk8@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <20130118043109.GH3216@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Michael Paoli (Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu):

> or additionally, on systems with GNU date[3]:
> $ date -I
> 2013-01-17

I'm feeling like I've just gone through a time warp to March 2007, when
this whole subject was discussed to death on Don Marti's linux-elitists
mailing list -- including the reason why the above is a bad idea.
Quoting part of that thread:

   From rick Sat Mar  3 21:56:53 2007
   Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:56:54 -0800
   To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
   Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Show Us The Code

   Quoting David L. Anselmi (anselmi at anselmi.us):
 
   > The Debian bug on this says that --iso-8601 is deprecated in favor of
   > --rfc-3339 and contains links to the upstream discussion:
   >
   > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=354799
   >
   > Be nice if there were a short option, I guess.

   '-I' is now deprecated (and deliberately dropped from the manpage, which
   seems bloody minded) for the same reason that --iso-8601 was.  Option
   -i was proposed as a replacement short option (standing for 'Internet
   time'), but rejected because Paul Eggert's PC clock was too jittery
   (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-coreutils/2005-09/msg00056.html).
 
   So, the best approximation we'll be permitted to the brevity and clarity
   of 'date -I' is
 
     date +%Y-%m-%d
   or
     date --rfc-3339=date

   Argh.  Just kill me now.

So, sorry, no, you really should _not_ recommend 'date -I' to people using
GNU date, because the GNU coreutils people have already telegraphed their
intention to drop that option from future versions.

After the aforementioned linux-elitists thread, I figured out a
reasonable alternative (for GNU date users) that is _not_ similarly
destined to be dropped into the dustbin:

date +%F



> At the last (2012-01-03) BUUG meeting, among other things discussed,
> date and date/time format came up.  I mentioned ISO[1] date format....

I believe you mean ISO 8601 format.


> And yes, I've at least occasionally made earlier mention[4] of ISO date
> format.
> 4. http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-talk-balug.org/2010-February/004557.html

And I told you about 'date +%F' at that time, too, in my immediate follow-up:
http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-talk-balug.org/2010-February/004559.html

-- 
Cheers,             A programmer had a problem. He thought to himself, "I know,
Rick Moen           I'll solve it with threads!".  has Now problems. two he
rick at linuxmafia.com                                        -- Davidlohr Bueso 
McQ! (4x80)

From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Fri Jan 18 11:57:03 2013
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:57:03 -0800
Subject: [buug] date/time formats, standards, options, bloat,
	... (was: ISO date	format)
In-Reply-To: <20130118043109.GH3216@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20130117181619.41345iwg7bmhwvk8@webmail.rawbw.com>
 <20130118043109.GH3216@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20130118115703.202614lsof3989vk@webmail.rawbw.com>

Ah, good points.  I'd forgotten about %F, but alas, it's not (yet?) in
POSIX/SUS[1].  Likewise for %z and %:z.

And -I, okay, stating/implying it as "conveniently available" in GNU
date[2] was probably bit of an overstatement on my part, as it is
deprecated and it may become inconveniently unavailable in any future
version.  I did however show it in example as interactive usage, not in
some script or program.  Though some of GNU's documentation states it
as deprecated, would be better if that was much more consistent.  E.g.
in [2], in that context, it makes no mention there of being deprecated.

And yes, standards do evolve.  ISO 8601[3] is good, but also older.
RFC 3339[4] didn't yet exist in 1998.  It can well be argued that RFC
3999 has advantages over ISO 8601.  And, perhaps to lesser extent, it
could also be argued that ISO 8601 has some advantages over RFC 3339
(e.g. RFC 3339 doesn't even attempt to address ranges of time).
Fortunately, ISO 8601 and RFC 3339 do also have quite a bit in common.
What's been more widely adopted (e.g. ISO 8601 or RFC 3339) probably
depends not only on context (e.g. Internet protocols vs. more general
usage by/for humans, standard bodies, and countries), but may also
change and shift over time.  But it's quite clear, for Internet
protocols currently RFC 3339 would generally be most appropriate and
applicable, whereas in other contexts, it might be ISO 8601, rather
than RFC 3339.  It's also worth noting that ISO 8601 and RFC 3339 do
address rather different objectives.

ISO 8601 more generally covers date/time formats and related data and
interchange, and has a fairly wide variety of formats to accommodate
somewhat different needs (e.g. time ranges, week-of-year formats
commonly used in e.g. manufacturing industries, lower precision formats
e.g. specifying only year and month, or only year, etc.)

RFC 3339 aims to simplify by only addressing specific time instants,
unambiguously and to precision of second and only rarely more
precisely, reducing variations in possible formatting and probabilities
of errors and bugs - including implementation of specification and
interpretation of conforming data, while also having reasonable
allowance for human readability, and with a primary focus on use as
standard format in Internet protocols.

(options, bloat, ramble, ramble ...)
For the most part, I like to stick with and favor good standards, and
shy away from non-standard (e.g. GNU) extensions.  But there are some I
do very much like and I find have much merit, and I'd like to see - at
least in some comparable form, make it into POSIX/SUS standards.  But,
a whole lot of GNU extensions I often find to be rather bloated
overkill, and not so useful.  Examples of GNU extension I quite like:
the -0 and similar options to GNU's find (-print0), cpio, xargs, etc.
It's so useful perl also has quite similar, as does BSD in, e.g. pax.
I'd like to see POSIX/SUS date(1) with minimally extended yet sufficient
additional formatting options to reasonably generate most common ISO
8601 and RFC 3339 formats - and with not nearly so large and complex
(and not particularly stable) set of options as GNU date has.

Sure, might be handy to have capability to convert from a relatively
arbitrary timestamp to another date format or calculate a timestamp
relative to another given timestamp and offset, but *really*, do we
need to glob all that onto the date(1) command - particularly for
command that also likely gets used by superuser?  Sounds hazardously
bloated.  Seems to me a whole lot of that functionality ought to be
stripped out of the date command, and would probably best be placed in
a completely separate utility command.  I think many of the points
about simplicity and rarely used options ought quite be applied to
(re)design of the GNU date command - but hey, that's just my opinion.
GNU date is brought to you by (some of) the same fine folks also
responsible for emacs - and, well, they may have very different design
criteria compared to what I'd have in mind.

footnotes/references/excerpts:
1. http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/date.html
2.  
http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Options-for-date.html#Options-for-date
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601
4. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3339.txt

> From: "Rick Moen" <rick at linuxmafia.com>
> Subject: Re: [buug] ISO date format
> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 20:31:10 -0800

> Quoting Michael Paoli (Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu):
>
>> or additionally, on systems with GNU date[3]:
>> $ date -I
>> 2013-01-17
>
> I'm feeling like I've just gone through a time warp to March 2007, when
> this whole subject was discussed to death on Don Marti's linux-elitists
> mailing list -- including the reason why the above is a bad idea.
> Quoting part of that thread:
>
>    From rick Sat Mar  3 21:56:53 2007
>    Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 21:56:54 -0800
>    To: linux-elitists at zgp.org
>    Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Show Us The Code
>
>    Quoting David L. Anselmi (anselmi at anselmi.us):
>
>    > The Debian bug on this says that --iso-8601 is deprecated in favor of
>    > --rfc-3339 and contains links to the upstream discussion:
>    >
>    > http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=354799
>    >
>    > Be nice if there were a short option, I guess.
>
>    '-I' is now deprecated (and deliberately dropped from the manpage, which
>    seems bloody minded) for the same reason that --iso-8601 was.  Option
>    -i was proposed as a replacement short option (standing for 'Internet
>    time'), but rejected because Paul Eggert's PC clock was too jittery
>    (http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-coreutils/2005-09/msg00056.html).
>
>    So, the best approximation we'll be permitted to the brevity and clarity
>    of 'date -I' is
>
>      date +%Y-%m-%d
>    or
>      date --rfc-3339=date
>
>    Argh.  Just kill me now.
>
> So, sorry, no, you really should _not_ recommend 'date -I' to people using
> GNU date, because the GNU coreutils people have already telegraphed their
> intention to drop that option from future versions.
>
> After the aforementioned linux-elitists thread, I figured out a
> reasonable alternative (for GNU date users) that is _not_ similarly
> destined to be dropped into the dustbin:
>
> date +%F
>
>
>
>> At the last (2012-01-03) BUUG meeting, among other things discussed,
>> date and date/time format came up.  I mentioned ISO[1] date format....
>
> I believe you mean ISO 8601 format.
>
>
>> And yes, I've at least occasionally made earlier mention[4] of ISO date
>> format.
>> 4.  
>> http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-talk-balug.org/2010-February/004557.html
>
> And I told you about 'date +%F' at that time, too, in my immediate follow-up:
> http://lists.balug.org/pipermail/balug-talk-balug.org/2010-February/004559.html
>
> --
> Cheers,             A programmer had a problem. He thought to  
> himself, "I know,
> Rick Moen           I'll solve it with threads!".  has Now problems. two he
> rick at linuxmafia.com                                        -- Davidlohr Bueso
> McQ! (4x80)



From rick at linuxmafia.com  Wed Jan 23 19:57:33 2013
From: rick at linuxmafia.com (Rick Moen)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:57:33 -0800
Subject: [buug] GNU bloat (was: ISO date format)
In-Reply-To: <20130118043109.GH3216@linuxmafia.com>
References: <20130117181619.41345iwg7bmhwvk8@webmail.rawbw.com>
 <20130118043109.GH3216@linuxmafia.com>
Message-ID: <20130124035733.GA26038@linuxmafia.com>

Quoting Michael Paoli (Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu):

[...]
> But, a whole lot of GNU extensions I often find to be rather bloated
> overkill, and not so useful. 
[...]

http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/88q3/2104.6.html

Bonus link:
http://www.wlug.org.nz/POSIX_ME_HARDER

(I remember that interview Richard gave at Linuxcare in 1999, and agree
that the world is notably poorer for losing that POSIX_ME_HARDER
environment variable.)

-- 
Cheers,      Nothing's hotter than having a copyeditor correct your sex scenes.
Rick Moen                                                       -- Max Barry
rick at linuxmafia.com
McQ! (4x80)

From itz at buug.org  Fri Jan 25 22:11:27 2013
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 22:11:27 -0800
Subject: [buug] debsecan
Message-ID: <20130125221127.5753e512.itz@buug.org>

All debian users (I think that means a substantial portion of the
readership of this list) ought to read this:

http://lwn.net/Articles/532343/

-- 
Ian Zimmerman
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/c66875cda51109f76c6312f4d4743d1e.png
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.

From itz at buug.org  Wed Jan 30 12:37:01 2013
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:37:01 -0800
Subject: [buug] GNU make unexpected behavior - any experts here?
Message-ID: <20130130123701.171b34e1.itz@buug.org>

I have a problem with one of the GNU extensions (not generic make
functionality).  Anyone here feels wise, before I take it to the GNU
forums?

-- 
Ian Zimmerman
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/c66875cda51109f76c6312f4d4743d1e.png
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.

From Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu  Wed Jan 30 13:35:53 2013
From: Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu (Michael Paoli)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 13:35:53 -0800
Subject: [buug] GNU make unexpected behavior - any experts here?
In-Reply-To: <20130130123701.171b34e1.itz@buug.org>
References: <20130130123701.171b34e1.itz@buug.org>
Message-ID: <20130130133553.24544vj7o326q0ao@webmail.rawbw.com>

no promises, but ...
details, details ;-) ...
minimal case reproducing the (presumed) bug or unexpected behavior?
version & source (compiled from GNU or distribution's packaging)?
What bit in the documentation does the behavior not match as expected?
Does GNU already have a "bug" filed on it (or it reported on applicable
list, if/where proper bug tracking system doesn't exist)?
And sometimes the bug "fix" is to match the documentation to the
behavior.  8-O

You know the drill ;-)
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#beprecise

Happy bug hunting!

> From: "Ian Zimmerman" <itz at buug.org>
> Subject: [buug] GNU make unexpected behavior - any experts here?
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:37:01 -0800

> I have a problem with one of the GNU extensions (not generic make
> functionality).  Anyone here feels wise, before I take it to the GNU
> forums?


From nick at zork.net  Thu Jan 31 00:13:26 2013
From: nick at zork.net (Nick Moffitt)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:13:26 +0000
Subject: [buug] GNU make unexpected behavior - any experts here?
In-Reply-To: <20130130123701.171b34e1.itz@buug.org>
References: <20130130123701.171b34e1.itz@buug.org>
Message-ID: <20130131081325.GZ2488@zork.net>

Ian Zimmerman:
> I have a problem with one of the GNU extensions (not generic make
> functionality).  Anyone here feels wise, before I take it to the GNU
> forums?

Don't ask to ask: just ask!

-- 
A: No.
Q: Should I put my reply above quoted text?

From itz at buug.org  Thu Jan 31 10:51:41 2013
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:51:41 -0800
Subject: [buug] GNU make unexpected behavior - any experts here?
In-Reply-To: <20130130133553.24544vj7o326q0ao@webmail.rawbw.com>
References: <20130130123701.171b34e1.itz@buug.org>
 <20130130133553.24544vj7o326q0ao@webmail.rawbw.com>
Message-ID: <20130131105141.3a652957.itz@buug.org>

On Wed, 30 Jan 2013 13:35:53 -0800
"Michael Paoli" <Michael.Paoli at cal.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> minimal case reproducing the (presumed) bug or unexpected behavior?

#!/usr/bin/make -f
# -*- makefile-gmake -*-

define spit_foo =
cat foo
endef

all: do_foo
	cat bar

do_foo:
	$(spit_foo)

.PHONY: do_foo all

# expected:
# cat foo
# cat bar
# got instead:
# cat bar

> version & source (compiled from GNU or distribution's packaging)?

 [10+0]~$ dpkg --status make
Package: make
Status: install ok installed
Priority: optional
Section: devel
Installed-Size: 1145
Maintainer: Manoj Srivastava <srivasta at debian.org>
Architecture: amd64
Source: make-dfsg
Version: 3.81-8.2
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.3)
Suggests: make-doc
Description: An utility for Directing compilation.
 GNU Make is an utility which controls the generation of executables and
 other target files of a program from the program's source files. It
 determines automatically which pieces of a large program need to be
 (re)created, and issues the commands to (re)create them. Make is not
 limited to programs and executable, it can be applied to any task
 where a set of target files must be created based on a set of input
 files, based on dependency and processing rules. Indeed, Make is a
 general purpose dependency solver.
Homepage: http://www.gnu.org/software/make/

> What bit in the documentation does the behavior not match as expected?

Manual section 6.8, Defining Multi-Line Variables and 5.8, Defining
Canned Recipes

> Does GNU already have a "bug" filed on it (or it reported on
> applicable list, if/where proper bug tracking system doesn't exist)?
> And sometimes the bug "fix" is to match the documentation to the
> behavior.  8-O

Well, a search (on gmane) of bug-make at gnu.org for "multi-line variables"
doesn't match anything recent (like at least 8 years or so).

-- 
Ian Zimmerman
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/c66875cda51109f76c6312f4d4743d1e.png
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.

From itz at buug.org  Thu Jan 31 17:56:18 2013
From: itz at buug.org (Ian Zimmerman)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:56:18 -0800
Subject: [buug] GNU make unexpected behavior - any experts here?
In-Reply-To: <20130130123701.171b34e1.itz@buug.org>
References: <20130130123701.171b34e1.itz@buug.org>
Message-ID: <20130131175618.0c762a25.itz@buug.org>

On Wed, 30 Jan 2013 12:37:01 -0800
Ian Zimmerman <itz at buug.org> wrote:

> I have a problem with one of the GNU extensions (not generic make
> functionality).  Anyone here feels wise, before I take it to the GNU
> forums?

I have figured it out, and it is a debacle for both sides invloved (me &
GNU).

Apparently, the syntax for defining canned recipes changed incompatibly
between 3.81 and 3.82.  In all versions up to 3.81, there is no =
character on the define line; in 3.82, the = is required :-(

And, while I have the debian make package, I have installed the
documentation by hand (because I don't want non-free in my apt sources),
and of course only the latest version is available on gnu.org.

Argh.

-- 
Ian Zimmerman
gpg public key: 1024D/C6FF61AD
fingerprint: 66DC D68F 5C1B 4D71 2EE5  BD03 8A00 786C C6FF 61AD
http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/c66875cda51109f76c6312f4d4743d1e.png
Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.